Q&A The 'Mains' Advice Thread

[Justinian]

So I use now and feel good about it except against characters like . Also some and give me a really hard time. Should I get a secondary for them? If so who? Right now I like [/] but I'm open to more suggestions.

Cloud wins against all your problem characters except for Pikachu (loses) and Fox (even). Falcon and Bayonetta aren't really hard matchups for Diddy, you just have to put way more effort into keeping them out compared to a lot of MUs.

Fox is also a good option (I ran the Fox / Diddy team at one point) since he shreds Falcon and Lucario, beats Lucas and goes even vs Pika and the Bros. He's workable IF you're willing to learn Diddy vs Fox from Diddy's side (which I think is a losing, but pretty fun, matchup). In return, Diddy covers both of Fox's problem MUs (Sheik and Bayo) decently and dunks on a few of his evens as well.

 

[Ravengeance]

So I mained Sheik from launch and she was definitely my best character. Then patch 1.1.5 came out and I wasn't so sure. My Mario was pretty strong and it felt like I had an easier time winning a match with Mario than with Sheik. This started my 'Who Should I Main? Identity Cristis.' So since that patch I've been messing around with a handful of high tier characters and playing them, predominantly Sheik, Mario, ZSS, Mewtwo for a good while then eventually I started adding Marth to the mix. My Marth improved and surpassed my ZSS and my Mewtwo. Then I started playing a little bit of Cloud and I played him with a lot of similarities to my Marth but I couldn't help noticing the difference between the two and feeling Cloud was just a better character. So I start playing Cloud and my results show my Cloud is better than my Marth or Mario or even my Sheik.

I still believe Sheik is the best player in the game no matter what eventscrubs or whatever ZeRo's tier list this week is gonna say. She beats Cloud IMHO. So like I want my main to be a Sheik main but it's hard when most of the time my Cloud just has better results.

I never played FFVII, I think Cloud is kinda emo, and it feels like everyone plays Cloud now. All those factors make me not really want to main him but like he's kinda my best character. I don't dislike playing him but like I legitimately have more fun playing Marth.

So I'm like do I dualmain Sheik/Cloud? Do I practice my Cloud to improve him so he's my lone main? Do I say screw Cloud and play Marth just bc I have more fun? Do I main Sheik for singles but Cloud for doubles? Like I'm super torn bc I like playing a character I enjoy but I also like playing a character I'm good with. I know the secret right answer is play who you enjoy playing as and I should just main Sheik. I can't be the only one who is trying to resist having a pocket Cloud.

 

[Nah]

So I mained Sheik from launch and she was definitely my best character. Then patch 1.1.5 came out and I wasn't so sure. My Mario was pretty strong and it felt like I had an easier time winning a match with Mario than with Sheik. This started my 'Who Should I Main? Identity Cristis.' So since that patch I've been messing around with a handful of high tier characters and playing them, predominantly Sheik, Mario, ZSS, Mewtwo for a good while then eventually I started adding Marth to the mix. My Marth improved and surpassed my ZSS and my Mewtwo. Then I started playing a little bit of Cloud and I played him with a lot of similarities to my Marth but I couldn't help noticing the difference between the two and feeling Cloud was just a better character. So I start playing Cloud and my results show my Cloud is better than my Marth or Mario or even my Sheik.

I still believe Sheik is the best player in the game no matter what eventscrubs or whatever ZeRo's tier list this week is gonna say. She beats Cloud IMHO. So like I want my main to be a Sheik main but it's hard when most of the time my Cloud just has better results.

I never played FFVII, I think Cloud is kinda emo, and it feels like everyone plays Cloud now. All those factors make me not really want to main him but like he's kinda my best character. I don't dislike playing him but like I legitimately have more fun playing Marth.

So I'm like do I dualmain Sheik/Cloud? Do I practice my Cloud to improve him so he's my lone main? Do I say screw Cloud and play Marth just bc I have more fun? Do I main Sheik for singles but Cloud for doubles? Like I'm super torn bc I like playing a character I enjoy but I also like playing a character I'm good with. I know the secret right answer is play who you enjoy playing as and I should just main Sheik. I can't be the only one who is trying to resist having a pocket Cloud.

Do both. Play both a character you like and one that you do well with/is good/is practical. You then don't have to choose that way.

So dual main Sheik+Cloud imo.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

So I use now and feel good about it except against characters like . Also some and give me a really hard time. Should I get a secondary for them? If so who? Right now I like [/] but I'm open to more suggestions.

IIRC, the only one of those that is really any extra difficult for Diddy is Luigi, so he's the main one I'd worry about for possibly a secondary. That said, the MU isn't THAT bad, and there are a lot of characters that beat Luigi for you to choose from. Sheik, as well as Mewtwo or MegaMan seem like good options.

Mario, Pikachu, Fox, and Captain Falcon are also about even, but I imagine some hard work on Diddy could overcome your trouble there.

Also, my turn! I've been playing for ages now, and am really starting to feel the need for a secondary to cover some of her worse MU's (as a reminder for those who aren't familiar with the character for SOME reason, these include most of the cast with strong solid projectiles like , , and , as well as and in particular.).

 

[Ravengeance]

IIRC, the only one of those that is really any extra difficult for Diddy is Luigi, so he's the main one I'd worry about for possibly a secondary. That said, the MU isn't THAT bad, and there are a lot of characters that beat Luigi for you to choose from. Sheik, as well as Mewtwo or MegaMan seem like good options.

Mario, Pikachu, Fox, and Captain Falcon are also about even, but I imagine some hard work on Diddy could overcome your trouble there.

Also, my turn! I've been playing for ages now, and am really starting to feel the need for a secondary to cover some of her worse MU's (as a reminder for those who aren't familiar with the character for SOME reason, these include most of the cast with strong solid projectiles like , , and , as well as and in particular.).

For some reason I feel like is a good answer. Luma and her down special are so good against the projectiles and she can hit people with the up airs similarly like Wii Fit Trainer.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Alright so I hosted a smash fest today and tried out the options and found out that my scariest secondaries were . I feel like a change of play is a good choice for me rather than soloing so I'll keep looking at these characters to see who sticks out.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

How is progress going so far in optimizing match ups with your co-mains if I may ask The Goldenbrawler ?

Er, I'm actually still unsure to be honest. I've played more matches with each, but that still hasn't really helped. I've been looking into their playstyles, like how is very highly based off of footstools (not completely, but I imagine it's necessary), of which I've never done or like , who I have been told, is more defensive than offensive, and as an aggressive player, that concerns me. Then there's , who I thought was rushdown, but have been told he's more bait and punish oriented. I've got my mains figured out for Rivals of Aether, I've got my mains figured out for Pokken, and I've got my mains figured out for even Melee, but I can't figure this out for Smash 4? This is rather frustrating, I'm choosing between characters I like at this point, since I do enjoy playing as each of them.
= Favorite legendary, one of my favorite melee vets.
= Favorite starter, one of my favorite newcomers.
= Favorite Kirby character, one of my favorite brawl vets.
= One of my favorite Gen 4 Pokemon, and one of my favorite brawl vets. (Not considering him as much as the others though)

 

[DietDrKelp]

Er, I'm actually still unsure to be honest. I've played more matches with each, but that still hasn't really helped. I've been looking into their playstyles, like how is very highly based off of footstools (not completely, but I imagine it's necessary), of which I've never done or like , who I have been told, is more defensive than offensive, and as an aggressive player, that concerns me. Then there's , who I thought was rushdown, but have been told he's more bait and punish oriented. I've got my mains figured out for Rivals of Aether, I've got my mains figured out for Pokken, and I've got my mains figured out for even Melee, but I can't figure this out for Smash 4? This is rather frustrating, I'm choosing between characters I like at this point, since I do enjoy playing as each of them.
= Favorite legendary, one of my favorite melee vets.
= Favorite starter, one of my favorite newcomers.
= Favorite Kirby character, one of my favorite brawl vets.
= One of my favorite Gen 4 Pokemon, and one of my favorite brawl vets. (Not considering him as much as the others though)

Have you considered Fox or any other characters like Pikachu if you're looking for rushdown? You don't have to limit yourself to playing defensive or offensive (for example, M2 can be played a large number of ways, campy dtilt and shadow ball or tricky pressure with phasing and fair on shield). Greninja is largely hit and run as well as punish and reaction based. MK is as you say, bait and punish, but also relies heavily upon execution and taking opportunities. He definitely can be played as a rushdown character if you can find the safest way to pressure against a character (pressuring fox is different that pressuring olimar for example). Lucario was my first main and he is a character that requires a degree of tech skill but can be played very basic and still succeed (see Tsu..). Lucario is not a bad character but has been way overrated as of late with Tsu having a one-and-done run at Frostbite. Aside from that, the meta for this character is very deep and has been labbed A LOT. Lots of resources are available for all of your characters, it just depends on what you want in a character. I know you're looking to pick two, so look at it based on matchups if you plan to play at a competitive level. That's what I plan to do down the road with Corrin, but for the time, I plan to avoid having a secondary while I continue to sharpen my decision making skills and such with the character.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

Have you considered Fox or any other characters like Pikachu if you're looking for rushdown? You don't have to limit yourself to playing defensive or offensive (for example, M2 can be played a large number of ways, campy dtilt and shadow ball or tricky pressure with phasing and fair on shield). Greninja is largely hit and run as well as punish and reaction based. MK is as you say, bait and punish, but also relies heavily upon execution and taking opportunities. He definitely can be played as a rushdown character if you can find the safest way to pressure against a character (pressuring fox is different that pressuring olimar for example). Lucario was my first main and he is a character that requires a degree of tech skill but can be played very basic and still succeed (see Tsu..). Lucario is not a bad character but has been way overrated as of late with Tsu having a one-and-done run at Frostbite. Aside from that, the meta for this character is very deep and has been labbed A LOT. Lots of resources are available for all of your characters, it just depends on what you want in a character. I know you're looking to pick two, so look at it based on matchups if you plan to play at a competitive level. That's what I plan to do down the road with Corrin, but for the time, I plan to avoid having a secondary while I continue to sharpen my decision making skills and such with the character.

Well, to put it simply, I have. As for the rushdown thing, I'm not sure if that's really my playstyle, I just know I prefer playing aggro and need a bit of technicality (although that's just an assumption, as I typically pick technical characters in Pokken and Rivals). Only reason I brought up that I thought MK was rushdown as that was just a general thought I had, and was overall surprised when people told me that he isn't.
Anyways, the characters I listed before are ones I've narrowed it down to for spot #2. I played about half the cast after I returned form hiatus, a few months back, but I ended up deciding against them, either because I didn't like their playstyle, I didn't like the character (at least, not as much as others), and/or I didn't do well with them.

 

[Dream Cancel]

So I mained Sheik from launch and she was definitely my best character. Then patch 1.1.5 came out and I wasn't so sure. My Mario was pretty strong and it felt like I had an easier time winning a match with Mario than with Sheik. This started my 'Who Should I Main? Identity Cristis.' So since that patch I've been messing around with a handful of high tier characters and playing them, predominantly Sheik, Mario, ZSS, Mewtwo for a good while then eventually I started adding Marth to the mix. My Marth improved and surpassed my ZSS and my Mewtwo. Then I started playing a little bit of Cloud and I played him with a lot of similarities to my Marth but I couldn't help noticing the difference between the two and feeling Cloud was just a better character. So I start playing Cloud and my results show my Cloud is better than my Marth or Mario or even my Sheik.

I still believe Sheik is the best player in the game no matter what eventscrubs or whatever ZeRo's tier list this week is gonna say. She beats Cloud IMHO. So like I want my main to be a Sheik main but it's hard when most of the time my Cloud just has better results.

I never played FFVII, I think Cloud is kinda emo, and it feels like everyone plays Cloud now. All those factors make me not really want to main him but like he's kinda my best character. I don't dislike playing him but like I legitimately have more fun playing Marth.

So I'm like do I dualmain Sheik/Cloud? Do I practice my Cloud to improve him so he's my lone main? Do I say screw Cloud and play Marth just bc I have more fun? Do I main Sheik for singles but Cloud for doubles? Like I'm super torn bc I like playing a character I enjoy but I also like playing a character I'm good with. I know the secret right answer is play who you enjoy playing as and I should just main Sheik. I can't be the only one who is trying to resist having a pocket Cloud.

Nah, almost every Cloud main I know has a prominent secondary or co-mains. Professionals even do the same thing. Some examples and patterns are:

- + Fire Emblem Character. , , , and , although and players find Cloud good as well. (although if you're playing Ike, it sucks because Cloud is everything Ike wants)

Really common in my experience, they all play similarly. Swords + Speed + disjoints + fairly weak grab games. Easy to transition between each character as long as you have the fundamentals of sword-play.

- + . This top tier duo covers every MU in the game with an even or better MU spread, and few combinations will have a comparable MU spread. Both enjoy great frame data and combos, and you'll trade KO power and range for recovery and needles. However, this duo really relies on the player to be on point, because poor execution can really hurt both characters. One sloppy recovery with Cloud and your stock is gone, and one poor trade for Sheik and you're at risk for getting Smash 4'd lol.

Those two combinations I've seen personally, but professional players like Komorikiri use + , ZeRo and Nairo have excellent pocket/secondary Clouds too. The only solo Cloud mains at top level are Tweek, Ned(maybe?), and Mew2king(maybe?), so solo'ing him is viable as well.

As for the pocket cloud phenomenon, I wouldn't worry about it too much. He's good, and just like any character, character specialists will get more out of him than others, so if you want to main or use him, go right ahead. Just if you're not good with him, it will show.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

The struggle for me in this game is the wide variety of characters makes it so hard to just pick one. In melee I play and it's easy to stick with her cause she's fun and has clutch. And as for secondary I can just pick between whichever I like more and it's that easy or even both. But in smash 4 it took me forever to settle on and now looking for a secondary there's 4 options () that are all good options and very fun characters. A lot I just hear "play who's fun" and "play who's good" but they're all fun and good. And cool too. Literally they all compliment my with the matchups I struggle in ( And some ) I need help narrowing down. Please help. I'll take any mu knowledge, play style stuff to go along with Diddy, anything. Also hard to use doesn't matter to me I've used before... also I do well with all in friendlies.

 

[Nu~]

What are some of the trickiest and most slippery characters in smash 4? I used to use Pac-Man but he sucks so I'm looking for someone new.


I'd say my playstyle revolves around catching my opponent off guard with creative tricks/traps I can come up with on the fly (nothing hyper-elaborate and telegraphed) and evasion. I don't like being a super big target and would much rather use a swift, mobile character that can both keep up with rush down and slip through heavy zoning.

I also love strong punish games but instead of passively looking for an opportunity to strike, I enjoy baiting and fooling my opponent into picking an option that I can punish.

My main weakness as a player is that I find it hard to just clear my mind and play reactively because my mind is always jumping from thought to thought, and idea to idea. (ADD :,[ )
It's hard for me to pay attention to the minute details of my opponent super closely, but I make up for it with how hard it is for people to feel prepared against me. I'm always coming up with something odd and new that you may not expect.

If it adds anything, in the type of guy that:
-Absolutely loves holograms in halo 4
-My favorite abilities in Kid Icarus Uprising were playing dead, virus, transparency, trade-off, and slip shot

 

[Dream Cancel]

The struggle for me in this game is the wide variety of characters makes it so hard to just pick one. In melee I play and it's easy to stick with her cause she's fun and has clutch. And as for secondary I can just pick between whichever I like more and it's that easy or even both. But in smash 4 it took me forever to settle on and now looking for a secondary there's 4 options () that are all good options and very fun characters. A lot I just hear "play who's fun" and "play who's good" but they're all fun and good. And cool too. Literally they all compliment my with the matchups I struggle in ( And some ) I need help narrowing down. Please help. I'll take any mu knowledge, play style stuff to go along with Diddy, anything. Also hard to use doesn't matter to me I've used before... Leo I do well with all in friendlies.

Ok I did some studying and this is the matchups I saw
: 1.5losing
5:5-45:55 or slight losing, 6:4, 55:45 win, 5:5 even, 55:45 win, 5:5 even, 4:6 losing, 5:5 even.
: 2losing
6:4 win, 55:45-5:5 slight win, 55:45, 5:5? Idk, 45:55 losing, 4:6, 5:5
: 2losing
5:5, 6:4, 45:55, 55:45,55:45, 45:55, 5:5
: 1.5losing
5:5,6:4,55:45, 45:55,55:45, 5:5, 5:5, 5:5-45:55 even or slight loss.

Should I drop for having 2 losing over just 1 with ?

Um, with all due respect, you shouldn't be struggling with almost 9 match-ups if you main Diddy Kong. Just go watch ZeRo and Zinoto play each respective MU and really pay attention to the choices they make against said characters. Diddy may have slightly losing MU's, sure, but player skill matters more than the MU when it comes to top tiers, and a lot of other characters for that matter.

You're focusing too hard on the MU ratios and not enough on the players behind the characters. Diddy can take on every character in the game and have even to good odds of victory.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Um, with all due respect, you shouldn't be struggling with almost 9 match-ups if you main Diddy Kong. Just go watch ZeRo and Zinoto play each respective MU and really pay attention to the choices they make against said characters. Diddy may have slightly losing MU's, sure, but player skill matters more than the MU when it comes to top tiers, and a lot of other characters for that matter.

You're focusing too hard on the MU ratios and not enough on the players behind the characters. Diddy can take on every character in the game and have even to good odds of victory.

After reading this (which was really good for me to hear thank you) I realize really I only need to worry about but I can just learn them. The others I just struggle to fight in general with any character or aren't as bad as I thought. Thank you

That being said I'd still like to know how stack up to them ( is a fun character who my friend recommended to me) for the sake that I personally just want a secondary because that's what I'd like.
Also ignoring that mu thing I did cause that was a bit faulty and doesn't help too much.

 

[DietDrKelp]

Nu~
You want a mobile trickster? Fox and Mewtwo come to mind. Also, characters like toon link, villager, sheik, rob and ness.
Fox - Has lots of crazy combos you can be creative with with stuff like pivot f tilt, up air to footstool, all his tilt combos leading into aerial strings. Character is capable of crazy things.
Mewtwo - Has lots of tricky aspects and plenty of tricks that are underused. Very slippery and can be played offensively but is more a defensive character.
Tink - Has the annoying factor that Pac has, as well as the mobile projectile game. His projectiles have mad conversions and he has plenty of bomb tricks (rar short hop bomb throw to regrab and jump cancelled toss stuff). Overall super underdeveloped.
Villager - His playstyle revolves around tricks and has a lot to do with setups, but you can come up with plenty of things on the fly.
Sheik - Super mobile character, has plenty of tricks and mixups, would assist a reactive playstyle.
ROB - All around tricky character that revolves around creativity in setups and item usage.
Ness - Super mobile and heavy hitting character with tricks and setups like falling uair to uair and long strings as well as incredible jank (pk fire, pk thunder, bat kills at like 70)

It really comes down to how creative you are and how much you want to already have discovered for you. DO you want a super developed meta (Fox, M2) or would you like to be an innovator (ROB, Tink)? It's really up to you, plenty of characters can be played like slippery and tricky but aren't based on go with the flow, like greninja, a super punish based character. You can learn to use any of the characters above, and how you learn them will heavily effect the things you do with them. There are foxes you do crazy vortexes with up air and nair and up tilt, then there are innovators, doing things with up air to footstool to jab lock nair and things like that.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Nu~
You want a mobile trickster? Fox and Mewtwo come to mind. Also, characters like toon link, villager, sheik, rob and ness.
Fox - Has lots of crazy combos you can be creative with with stuff like pivot f tilt, up air to footstool, all his tilt combos leading into aerial strings. Character is capable of crazy things.
Mewtwo - Has lots of tricky aspects and plenty of tricks that are underused. Very slippery and can be played offensively but is more a defensive character.
Tink - Has the annoying factor that Pac has, as well as the mobile projectile game. His projectiles have mad conversions and he has plenty of bomb tricks (rar short hop bomb throw to regrab and jump cancelled toss stuff). Overall super underdeveloped.
Villager - His playstyle revolves around tricks and has a lot to do with setups, but you can come up with plenty of things on the fly.
Sheik - Super mobile character, has plenty of tricks and mixups, would assist a reactive playstyle.
ROB - All around tricky character that revolves around creativity in setups and item usage.
Ness - Super mobile and heavy hitting character with tricks and setups like falling uair to uair and long strings as well as incredible jank (pk fire, pk thunder, bat kills at like 70)

It really comes down to how creative you are and how much you want to already have discovered for you. DO you want a super developed meta (Fox, M2) or would you like to be an innovator (ROB, Tink)? It's really up to you, plenty of characters can be played like slippery and tricky but aren't based on go with the flow, like greninja, a super punish based character. You can learn to use any of the characters above, and how you learn them will heavily effect the things you do with them. There are foxes you do crazy vortexes with up air and nair and up tilt, then there are innovators, doing things with up air to footstool to jab lock nair and things like that.

Also . He's very fast and has great mobility and can get out of combos with shadow sneak and hydro pump can catch opponents off guard and gimp them and mess them up. Can also be very hard to catch with his quick attack and he has lots of combos and mixups. As for trick goes is the king, though he's not too good but he does have some good matchups.

 

[Dream Cancel]

After reading this (which was really good for me to hear thank you) I realize really I only need to worry about but I can just learn them. The others I just struggle to fight in general with any character or aren't as bad as I thought. Thank you

That being said I'd still like to know how stack up to them ( is a fun character who my friend recommended to me) for the sake that I personally just want a secondary because that's what I'd like.
Also ignoring that mu thing I did cause that was a bit faulty and doesn't help too much.

Those 4 characters you mentioned are difficult for Diddy Kong, yes.

So, is very capable of destroying said characters. My best advice is to get very familiar on how to get grabs against them, since they are all very susceptible to Ding-Dong combos. (Although Tweek beats people without using Ding-Dong to end stocks, which is interesting) is in a similar boat. He gets great conversions off of grabs and does well in close combat, and is very capable of ending stocks early. Nair is tough for all of them to deal with so if you're opponent is auto-piloting will struggle against it.

and both require a lot of practice to become proficient with, so, regardless of MUs, I don't recommend using them unless they are a dedicated secondary or an eventual main. requires some practice as well but is not as technical as the two ninjas, so he is a good option in my opinion. He is a fellow top tier so his MUs against the characters in question are even at worst, so he's worth learning if you want a strong secondary that you don't have to invest too much into.

 

[Justinian]

After reading this (which was really good for me to hear thank you) I realize really I only need to worry about but I can just learn them. The others I just struggle to fight in general with any character or aren't as bad as I thought. Thank you

That being said I'd still like to know how stack up to them ( is a fun character who my friend recommended to me) for the sake that I personally just want a secondary because that's what I'd like.
Also ignoring that mu thing I did cause that was a bit faulty and doesn't help too much.

As a Fox main, the only character out of your list he has issues with is Sheik, who is actually a really good secondary for Diddy in general if you're willing to put a ton of work into her. Luigi is also decent in your situation, as he goes even with all 4 of your problem characters and doesn't require a ton of effort to pick up. The other three lose to at least one of your problem characters.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

As a Fox main, the only character out of your list he has issues with is Sheik, who is actually a really good secondary for Diddy in general if you're willing to put a ton of work into her. Luigi is also decent in your situation, as he goes even with all 4 of your problem characters and doesn't require a ton of effort to pick up. The other three lose to at least one of your problem characters.

The list did actually expand a little bit due to advice from other players so it's currently . There is also the choice of me going back to for my god secondary since he covers very well and can stand a chance against . Which are the ones who have a losing mu and to who?

 

[Justinian]

The list did actually expand a little bit due to advice from other players so it's currently . There is also the choice of me going back to for my god secondary since he covers very well and can stand a chance against . Which are the ones who have a losing mu and to who?

Those just so happen to all be characters I'm decently versed in. Bayonetta's probably even with Mario/Lucario, loses slightly to Pika, and makes Fox wish he was never born. Cloud dunks on Mario and Lucario, goes even with Fox, and soundly loses to Pika. Fox shreds Lucario and goes even with the rest, and Marth goes even with Fox/Lucario, counters Mario, and either loses to or goes even with Pika.

 

[Hemwick]

How to do combo with bayonetta?

How to do combo with bayonetta?

Nevermind, I found out how to side b.

 

[DarkAuraful]

Er, I'm actually still unsure to be honest. I've played more matches with each, but that still hasn't really helped. I've been looking into their playstyles, like how is very highly based off of footstools (not completely, but I imagine it's necessary), of which I've never done or like , who I have been told, is more defensive than offensive, and as an aggressive player, that concerns me. Then there's , who I thought was rushdown, but have been told he's more bait and punish oriented. I've got my mains figured out for Rivals of Aether, I've got my mains figured out for Pokken, and I've got my mains figured out for even Melee, but I can't figure this out for Smash 4? This is rather frustrating, I'm choosing between characters I like at this point, since I do enjoy playing as each of them.
= Favorite legendary, one of my favorite melee vets.
= Favorite starter, one of my favorite newcomers.
= Favorite Kirby character, one of my favorite brawl vets.
= One of my favorite Gen 4 Pokemon, and one of my favorite brawl vets. (Not considering him as much as the others though)

Alright. Wait for another update from me. I got a lot on my plate right now but I can definitely think of a more depth response. I'll have to do some research on the MU charts for each of the four and make some deductions + analysis. For now, I still think you'll be better off with Mewtwo for the long run if you decided you're going to break it down to two mains. I'll update back with a MU chart analysis for each of the four.

Sorry if I was taking so long to answer back and you were expecting a quick response, but I promise I'll make this update good.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

Alright. Wait for another update from me. I got a lot on my plate right now but I can definitely think of a more depth response. I'll have to do some research on the MU charts for each of the four and make some deductions + analysis. For now, I still think you'll be better off with Mewtwo for the long run if you decided you're going to break it down to two mains. I'll update back with a MU chart analysis for each of the four.

Sorry if I was taking so long to answer back and you were expecting a quick response, but I promise I'll make this update good.

It's alright, thanks for responding. I think another good way of explaining my thought process is: I want to pick a character that, if I ever dropped Lucina, and didn't pick up Marth for whatever reason, that this co-main would be able to take over as like, a solo main of sorts. I do want to co-main, but if it truly doesn't work out, and/or I just decide against Lucina/Marth, then I will probably end up deciding that I only want to use 1 character. I'm just trying to figure out whom that will be.
There's a lot I've factored into this decision, like my 3 step process, matchups, representation (as in, what character needs it more), personification (As in, what character would I see myself playing, or if people could see me as similar to one of these characters, if that makes sense), and finally relying on rng (things like coin flips). I don't really understand why this choice is so difficult to make, but the fact it's hindering my progression is rather upsetting. However, I plan for this to be the last time I do this, because if it isn't, I might end up not choosing at all.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

My primary go ATM is to make it out of pools at evo so I'm gonna stick with but I also want 1 more character to top his losing mus. I want a character with good damage/ combos, is a top tier, and covers . Who would you recommend I look into?

 

[DietDrKelp]

Nice_FZPSC.42
You gotta choose for yourself my man. We can only give you so much advice. I think Cloud does very well against all of those characters, as he kills lucario, can win neutral against fox (who doesnt have a sound way of gimping him), wins neutral against mario by throwing out safe moves and abusing disjoint, and beats olimar by pushing his openings and taking advantage of his recovery as well as making him approach you. If you can learn to space his aerials, and autocancel dair, you're better than most. He really isn't a hard character and can definitely benefit you by letting you focus more on your main and not just getting better with diddy but learning matchups and the little intricate things about what every character can do against him and how to beat certain characters options. It's up to you, I know you could say even a character like Bowser wins those matchups. It's dependent on who you want to play and your willingness to stick with a character and learn the matchups. I've been playing Corrin for a couple months and have just recently picked up ZSS for the faster characters who can punish pin. Her matchup spread may not say she has winning matchups against them, but I learned them and am willing to abuse the few things ZSS can really take advantage of in the matchup. It's not all about how it looks on paper. A good rosa can destroy pocket clouds. My practice partner plays rosa and destroys cloud players because he's so good at edgeguarding but loses to our local ness player because the ness player knows the matchup better and knows he can abuse rosa's recovery, so if he gets her offstage he doesn't let her back. I hope some of that makes sense and helps in some way.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

DietDrKelp It does a lot thank you. I'm going to work withfor a bit and narrow down from there. I'll keep you all updated when I pick
and/or have a question.

 

[DarkAuraful]

Nice_FZPSC.42 You sure are experimenting with quite the amount of characters. That gives you a versatile range and knowledge of each of them. Are you also trying to find the character that works for you while also covering all the match-ups (incredibly difficult imo btw) too? It seems you're going through a lot of analysis and deductions for each character before you finalize your mains regarding your past posts in this thread from my impression.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Well I think whether I go with or that I'll have for my coverage so I'll start working on her now and solidify her spot as one of the two. The next choice is my main. My current main who is fun and fast and I get to watch ZeRo and Dyr (some of my favorite players) for research, or the fighter with the highest kill power in the game and I can take lessons from Locus and maybe Trela (my 2 favorite players) to learn and precise the character.
Let's find out who I go with.

 

[Aoi Yui]

So I lost my old cartridge and thought i'd get a new start. To describe my playstyle I'd say it's as reckless and agressive as it gets. I rush in like a maniac and spam my attacks. Zero strategy, full offense, no defense. I've tried playing strategically but i always end up defaulting to my berserker like fighting style. So yeah a character that I can play like that. I'm decent at dodging but im bad at shielding.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

I'm looking at my potential co-mains, as a way of keeping MU's in check sure, but I'm also wondering: If I drop , will one of these characters be solo viable? It's unlikely I'll get to that point, but from what I understand, isn't solo viable, and doesn't synergize well with 's MUs. That leaves me with and . Each seeming like they could run things solo, and to my knowledge, they each can cover up 's poor MU's rather well.
They're all part of my top 5 pokemon for sure, so should look into who is underrepresented? I have a friend who will help me, who solo mains , so I'd imagine his knowledge would be of great use if I were to pick up . is a common, yet probably one of the best additions to a / player's arsenal, however, I don't know how he fares solo. is inconsistent for me, however, I'm told that he could still be of great use to me if I took the time to rough out those inconsistencies. I'm somewhat closer to my goal with 1 character removed, but I can't stop here until I've got and my other co-main set.

 

[DietDrKelp]

So I lost my old cartridge and thought i'd get a new start. To describe my playstyle I'd say it's as reckless and agressive as it gets. I rush in like a maniac and spam my attacks. Zero strategy, full offense, no defense. I've tried playing strategically but i always end up defaulting to my berserker like fighting style. So yeah a character that I can play like that. I'm decent at dodging but im bad at shielding.

Well my friend, it sounds like you need to work on some fundamentals, like shielding, knowing when to roll, when not to roll, how to convert of grabs, how to bait and punish. The only real characters I can tell you to look into would be like Pikachu and Fox maybe. However, I suggest that you look into a YouTuber named Izaw, who has a series of videos called Art of Smash that can take you from the beginner level to an intermediate level of smash and has helped several of my friends learn the basics of the game. I suggest you look into this kind of a thing as you have just recently started. You'll realize that using strategy in this game is almost completely required if you wish to get better and be good (unless you only plan to play with people casually)

 

[LordShade67]

snip

I can't say about since I don't play him much, so I won't pretend I know what I'm talking about when it comes to him.
- A solid toolkit, but this needs to be pointed out: THIS CHARACTER REQUIRES ALOT OF TIME AND INVESTMENT TO BE GOOD WITH! This makes him a bad secondary, IMO.
- As an M2 main myself, he'll click just fine with /.His only "bad" MUs are and arguably , but both have been shown to be doable.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

snip

Well, just to start, I want to say that whoever I pick from these 3 will either:
A. Be a co-main alongside , making them about even, whilst cutting the need for secondaries out entirely.
B. Bump down to secondary status, and whoever I pick will be my main.
C. Replace entirely and be my solo main.
: As I said earlier, I have a friend who mains him that is able to give me whatever info I need on the character, so that's fine. I remember him saying that he has decent coverage for , and Tsu showed that Lucario CAN work solo.
: He's the most under utilized of the 3, from what I can gather, so I can't help but feel for the underdog. I don't know how well he covers 's MU's, but as you said, and others have told me, he'd do better solo.
: seems most likely of the 3, however, I do want to give all 3 a good enough look. He obviously covers 's MU's incredibly well, and it's easy to imagine him being solo viable, especially due to him being considered top 10.

Only one of these 3 shall be chosen, and by the end of this upcoming weekend, I want to be sure I have an answer. I've debated this subject for a long time, and I wish to finally see it come to a close so I can advance as a player.

 

[DarkAuraful]

Behold! For I shall save the day! (I'll at least attempt to do so)

Well, just to start, I want to say that whoever I pick from these 3 will either:
A. Be a co-main alongside , making them about even, whilst cutting the need for secondaries out entirely.
B. Bump down to secondary status, and whoever I pick will be my main.
C. Replace entirely and be my solo main.
: As I said earlier, I have a friend who mains him that is able to give me whatever info I need on the character, so that's fine. I remember him saying that he has decent coverage for , and Tsu showed that Lucario CAN work solo.
: He's the most under utilized of the 3, from what I can gather, so I can't help but feel for the underdog. I don't know how well he covers 's MU's, but as you said, and others have told me, he'd do better solo.
: seems most likely of the 3, however, I do want to give all 3 a good enough look. He obviously covers 's MU's incredibly well, and it's easy to imagine him being solo viable, especially due to him being considered top 10.

Only one of these 3 shall be chosen, and by the end of this upcoming weekend, I want to be sure I have an answer. I've debated this subject for a long time, and I wish to finally see it come to a close so I can advance as a player.

As an optimal player, you're serious about your picks. All three candidates you're considering have proven themselves to be solo viable as well. You also mentioned before that you're breaking it down to two mains, so no doubt what you're deciding is also difficult. You seem like you have a sound knowledge of each of the three's MU charts, but I'll provide them here anyways, so take what you will.

You're indecisive because each three of those characters has at least fulfilled one of your expectations. It's easy to find expectations for certain things, but also difficult to find who exceeds all of them. You want to invest based on MU charts (You're convinced has the best out of the three), uncompetitive exploration (you said it's in this case), and you want the character that you can ultimately define with.

Before I told you that would be the best candidate to complement , but now it could also be either or as well. You already have accessibility from your friend for strategies in playing , but you're fascinated in (primary why I play ) as well. I think you should invest in since you know him the least out of the three. Let me know if you come to a decision because honestly that's all I have. I COULD come up with more to help, though that'll have to come late.

Well I think whether I go with or that I'll have for my coverage so I'll start working on her now and solidify her spot as one of the two. The next choice is my main. My current main who is fun and fast and I get to watch ZeRo and Dyr (some of my favorite players) for research, or the fighter with the highest kill power in the game and I can take lessons from Locus and maybe Trela (my 2 favorite players) to learn and precise the character.
Let's find out who I go with.

I'm curious, but what made you consider Ryu? Is it his playstyle that demands a lot of technique input? Because that's definitely why I picked him up (Trela also inspired me too but he said somewhere he's done with Sm4sh so. Also Street Fighter is cool).

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

DarkAuraful ive always loved Ryu. His kill power makes me drool and I've just always wanted to play him. That's why I added him.
So the 4 characters I'm in love with and wanna use are not ones where I can even use 3/4. They'll. Demand attention. I'm gonna go with 2/4. I've looked at my charts and stuff and I've come up with the solution. I've put them in teams.
Either I'll play the team RIP ZeRo ()
or team Headband ()
But I don't know how to choose. I love Ryu and Roy to death, I've grown attached to Diddy, and ZSS and her flip kick are so flipping fun. Get it...
I'm not sure how I'll pick but I'll figure it out somehow.

 

[DarkAuraful]

Nice_FZPSC.42 Have you considered pockets if you're going to choose two out of the four? Like, two characters for competitive purposes and two just for the heck of it? You already love all four of them but the final two should be the ones you're passionate about.
You said yourself that you're willing to learn from Locus and Trela because that's how serious you are about playing so I guess him? Though your reasoning also identifies with mine as well. Plus I love his learning curve. Mastering him just shows how skilled you are while having to put up with his limitations as well such as his slow mobility.

I should probably follow Locus too. Trela REALLY inspired me by an incredible amount so Locus better surpass him.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

So I've decided to go with . He's fun and has amazing kill power which is so satisfying to land. I've also got as my pocket to fight . For my 3rd pocket it'll be between (if I even want a 3rd pocket at all)
Btw this isn't an April fools joke it's for real

 

[KniteBlargh]

Meanwhile, I'm definitely still on my quest for a secondary or perhaps even co-main (taking doubles into consideration) ever since dropping Sonic... It'll either be Knuckles or Knuckles. Juuuuust kidding...

Currently I feel like it SHOULD either be Meta Knight or Greninja all things considered, but as usual, there are a bunch of side characters bothering me. LOL

Being a Jigglypuff main, Sheik would probably be the most practical choice since her non-winning MUs tend to be pretty even, and she can freely switch between playstyles without much worry, but there are some things that bother me about playing her (and like, everyone else, for that matter). I'm starting to come to terms with the fact that my list of desired qualities for my secondary are unrealistic/overwhelming and can't be filled just the way I want them to be.

In short, this is going to take me a while... Again.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

KniteBlargh when looking for a secondary you should consider either covering mus (which you are) or just covering the flaws your character has. So you use .i can't say for sure but that's a ton of matchups except like heavys. So that'll be tough to cover. So instead cover the weakness of jiggs which is ground game. In the air she's pretty good and has good edge guarding, so get another character who is excellent on the ground so you can contest other ground based characters and aren't stuck to the air. You could use for example who dominates the ground game with banana. Also I know jiggs struggles with projectiles since they halt her approach, so go with a character who kills projectiles like etc. cover that.
I'd say look into since they are easier to use so they fit well as a secondary and they dominate ground game. Does worst against projectiles but is arguably best on the ground. Also none of them go too far for edgeguarding but easily can do there is a good advantage to go highly puff in some matchups. Hope this helps.

So I know struggles with . I have to cover , but I wanna know who's a good counter to ? I know I can just grind the mus but I just wanna know what characters cover it out of curiousity.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

Behold! For I shall save the day! (I'll at least attempt to do so)
As an optimal player, you're serious about your picks. All three candidates you're considering have proven themselves to be solo viable as well. You also mentioned before that you're breaking it down to two mains, so no doubt what you're deciding is also difficult. You seem like you have a sound knowledge of each of the three's MU charts, but I'll provide them here anyways, so take what you will.

You're indecisive because each three of those characters has at least fulfilled one of your expectations. It's easy to find expectations for certain things, but also difficult to find who exceeds all of them. You want to invest based on MU charts (You're convinced has the best out of the three), uncompetitive exploration (you said it's in this case), and you want the character that you can ultimately define with.

Before I told you that would be the best candidate to complement , but now it could also be either or as well. You already have accessibility from your friend for strategies in playing , but you're fascinated in (primary why I play ) as well. I think you should invest in since you know him the least out of the three. Let me know if you come to a decision because honestly that's all I have. I COULD come up with more to help, though that'll have to come late.

Well...I am wondering on 's MU's as well. I've looked for them, but to no real avail, I just heard that she had issues with Sheik and Sonic, but that was more hearsay. I mean, I have played those characters before and had issues, but it could just be me, and not the character. *shrug* So far, I'm still struggling to decide, I've been told by a friend that I seem to be good with all 3, so he can't really say which I should go with, or who I should drop.