Q&A The 'Mains' Advice Thread

[Derpnaster]

you already have the tools with ye
given list. Get creative on them and remember Cloud won't kill you easily without limit.

 

[TheFacelessOne]

I don't think that you are spreading yourself to thin character wise 3 characters is normal, the opposite is true with playstyle. All of your characters play heavy projectile game. Say you run into a fox main around your skill level, that fox already has an advantage over 2 of your characters (TL I am not 100% sure but I think he is in the same boat.) I would say to get rid of megaman and swap for someone that can deal with characters Villager and TL cannot deal with. I am speaking from more of a competitive standpoint, if you plan to just play casual then you can do what you want.

You do have a point there. I wanted to fit in mega man because of a consistent interest in the character. I don't think replacing mega man would be too hard. I have a diverse interest in characters that just so happen to be pretty good.
Others I enjoy (and debating on making my #3) are as follows:

I do think if I invest in smash 4 again I would try to get into the competitive scene so it's great to look at my choices from a competitive standpoint.

 

[DeltaForce]

I'll try my best to analyze all the characters you have shown me

Bayonetta- She does not rely on projectiles and is widely considered a top tier, she has some easy combos and is easy to pick up but as the scene gets more advanced there is more reads that tech with the character, she is probably my recommendation for you to use. She is very combo heavy and has a great matchup spread witha versatile recovery just takes a while to get the hang of.

RosaLuma- I would not go with character unless you have some serious time. Extremely good character would be a good playstyle mixup but unless you want to spend a lot of time in the lab I would not put RosaLuma as a secondary.

Mewtwo- Also I would recommend his, lots of kill options, light weight solid pick I would recommend this character as well.

MetaKnight-MK is my co main and I love to play him, good recovery, combo heavy, can have some trouble killing, he will take a lot of practice, but I would not recommend him as a secondary.

Corrin- Corrin has a lot of range and not really very many true combos what from what I know, he has a beast counter (best aerial counter in the game his spacing and quick projectile make him an adequate zone. Solid pick if this is someone you like. And you can only play female Corrin male Corrin is not allowed.

Pit-Pit is well known for being an honest character with a basic projectile and a reflector, he has some good range and he has some disjoints on his moves. Very good pick if you want him go for him.

Lucario- Takes a lot of practice with his arua and his strings, very good character not all that complicated but I would not choose him for a secondary.

Ness- Good aerials, 2 anti projectile moves (f smash and PSI Magnet) The recovery can be a bit ehhhhhh.... very good character easy to learn as long as you can deal with his recovery

Robin- Super complicated lots of situational awareness, he is not a great secondary (unless you are Nairo) also I would not use another projectile based character for previously stated reasons.

Lucina- I would just use Marth and Lucina together, they would be a good pick however I would pick some better at approaching and not so much a Zoner as a secondary.

In short I would reccomend the characters you have given me in this order for you to use as a secondary: Bayonetta, Mewtwo, Ness, Corrin, and Pit.

Let me know what you think and If you want I could run a more analyzed post on a shorter cast of character you think are good options like maybe 2 or 3 of them.

Oh and maybe should drop the Villager as well and use Mario, gives you a reflector, Mario is much easier to learn, and very viable for competitive play and would mix up your playstyle as well.

 

[West End]

For pikachu I would recomend a secondary of either Cloud, Meta knight, Mario or Rosaluma. They all have fairly good MU spread alonmg with pikachu, covering most of the cast. Other than that I would just reccomend trying whoever you feel like. Exept little mac. Little mac should not be played unless you are SOl or you are on for fun.

 

[Derpnaster]

Time for my single data point.

If you already have a projectile heavy cast on hand, it really does not matter. The single biggest falsehood players fall for (regarding projectiles) is that having a lot is bad. That is not the case as see by Toon Link who pulls off a three projectile set and still is a high tier. Mega Man is the ultimate in even matchups and Link is not far behind. The point is that they are not limited by their tools, you just have to work with them.

So in that vein, pick whoever you like best and get learning. There are no bad options in this game only bad practice.

Side note, reflectors are really unsafe and you can abuse PSI magnet because of end lag, never give up if a reflector comes into play. Just get smarter with your timing. You can actually lock players into a pattern with good projectile placement. It's disgusting how easily countered reflectors are.

 

[West End]

Also, what is your play style? it would be a lot easier to recommend a secondary if we knew your play-style. Just saying.

 

[DeltaForce]

New Time for my single data point.

If you already have a projectile heavy cast on hand, it really does not matter. The single biggest falsehood players fall for (regarding projectiles) is that having a lot is bad. That is not the case as see by Toon Link who pulls off a three projectile set and still is a high tier. Mega Man is the ultimate in even matchups and Link is not far behind. The point is that they are not limited by their tools, you just have to work with them.

So in that vein, pick whoever you like best and get learning. There are no bad options in this game only bad practice.

Side note, reflectors are really unsafe and you can abuse PSI magnet because of end lag, never give up if a reflector comes into play. Just get smarter with your timing. You can actually lock players into a pattern with good projectile placement. It's disgusting how easily countered reflectors are.

While you strike a good point Derp I disagree. What is the point of having 3 character that play a projectile game. Just one good one thats all you need 3 is just too much those three character lose to similar characters. He needs to drop one and counter pick. Unless skill level is uneven he will lose to counter picks and he doesn't have any other characters he will be defenseless.

I do have to disagree with you a bit on reflectors. A good player should know when to use a reflector and when not to. I.E. Fox will not shine megaman lemons instead he will reflect his side smash.

 

[West End]

However, pulling up your shield is ALWAYS faster than pullign up a reflector. 10/10. Reflectors are massivley underpowered due to their long startup time. Unless you are playing a noob or for fun, a good projectile character will play with their projectiles in a bait and punish style, rather than recklessly, which at best can be BARLEY powersheilded, at worst, their is nothing you can do.

 

[TheFacelessOne]

*snippety snip*

In short I would reccomend the characters you have given me in this order for you to use as a secondary: Bayonetta, Mewtwo, Ness, Corrin, and Pit.

Let me know what you think and If you want I could run a more analyzed post on a shorter cast of character you think are good options like maybe 2 or 3 of them.

Oh and maybe should drop the Villager as well and use Mario, gives you a reflector, Mario is much easier to learn, and very viable for competitive play and would mix up your playstyle as well.

Thanks for the analysis. If you want to do an analysis it's easy for me to shorten the list for you

: I do like pit and it wouldn't hurt to play him, but he's more of a character that's been on the back of my mind.
We can drop him if you like.

: Picked him up as a main and me and him meshed pretty well. I dropped him after getting tired of him but always
keep him in mind. I'd rather pick up someone new so we can drop him to.

That leaves . Also about , idk about him but I'll keep him in mind.

Also, what is your play style? it would be a lot easier to recommend a secondary if we knew your play-style. Just saying.

Glad you asked. I'm mostly a mix between zoning(of course), and turtling. Generally, I try to limit my opponents options and create pressure in order to make them play my game. I play best when I'm on the defensive and reacting to my opponents so I tend to play more defensive (when not on autopilot) and force approaches. I enjoy thinking of mixups and ways to punish my opponent and just all around play my best when I play reactively.

 

[West End]

If you are looking for a reflecting character I would reccomend Ness. He can reflect wi9th his F smahs (Wich is REALLY fast) and can absorbp energy projectiles, coupled with a high jump and small hurtbox, makes him veru good as a anti projectile.

 

[TheFacelessOne]

Personally I'm not looking specifically for a reflecting character, just a character I have a personal liking to that would suit my playstyle.

I'll chime into the discussion and say that deltaforce is right that having an all projectile team is a bad thing(in terms of character selection). All of them could work around it and I don't think there would be a problem using all projectile heavy characters. However, I think it's less that about the character being able to reflect them but more so that picking another projectile based character lets the opponent employ the same strategies to deal with them. So a character that's less projectile heavy can force my opponent to play differently.

I do like all the characters I singled out equally and I fixed my post above since I posted it too early. Feel free to read it. I look forward to your replies.

 

[DeltaForce]

I'll run an analysis on Corrin, Mewtwo, and Bayonetta.

Corrin- Alright so Corrin is a character that relies on spacing. Her projectile is decently fast and has dragon claw after releasing the projectile. Corrin has the best aerial riposte in the game CounterSurge so she can punish mistakes and aerial strings with ease. Corrin usually wins matchups given that she can outspace them. Her overall projectile is pretty weak is doesn't work very well if you are using it to create a wall. Recovery has armor except on her head. On vertical edged
stages she can use pin for recovery. All of her aerials have good range and so do her smashes. If you do not like the idea of using long ranged melee attacks to create a wall I would not choose Corrin.

Mewtwo- Ok so Mewtwo is similar to Corrin in the fact that they have a basic projectile and rely on spacing. Mewtwo has a reflector that can be useful for Anti-projectile game. His shadow ball is an excellent projectile. When you have a full charged shadow ball and your opponent is at kill percent it creates fear. Your opponent plays scared and you can use it to your advantage to net a kill. Which brings me to my next point, M2 has insane kill power. He has 2 kill throws and Shadow ball upsmash disable, and the nair to sh foot stool to disable to upsmash. And fair uair fair and bair can also kill. However, M2 has super light weight I think it is somewhere like the third lightest character so you need to be aware of this. If you like playing glass cannons where they lots of damage and can die easily then I would recommend you play M2 over Corrin. Oh and another thing M2 has a good recovery as long as he has double jump and when M2 airdodges he retains aerial momentum.

Bayonetta- Bayonetta took the smash world by storm, with her insane combos and kill confirms. Now that she has been nerfed she is a much more honest character but the salt remains.
Bayonetta has a decent projectile that can force some characters to approach. Her neutral is lackluster but one you get in she deals massive damage. Her primary focus is bait and punish she has a harder time getting in but once she gets in she can deal a lot of percent. Make sure to milk the most percent possible unless it makes you sd before they die themselves. Once she get's most of her kill off witch time and fair and bair. Do not spam which time it has repercussions if not used sparingly only use witch time for kill and maybe a combo starter if you feel like it is worth it. If you do not enjoy spacing and more walling opponents out I use Bayonetta.

In conclusion I would use M2 over Corrin unless you cannot handle his light weight. If you don't like spacey characters then I would go Bayonetta. If you can't decide I would only play that certain character for a week. Make your decision based on that. If you still cannot decide then I would make a random choice and start using them. If after a while you feel like you don't enjoy this character then switch until you feel like you are enjoying using then and getting good results. Let me know if you have any questions.

PS Just because I say a character isn't good does not you need to listen to me.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

With help from my friend/ fellow Roy main I've gotten it down to . (Yes... TL is back... again) now which 2 'ale the best pockets for ?
My worst matchups with Roy are .

 

[Ralugi]

For Roy, Cloud or Sonic should do the trick. They aren't the toughest to pickup and play. Tink has a lot of bomb techs, Ness is not so heavy.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

For Roy, Cloud or Sonic should do the trick. They aren't the toughest to pickup and play. Tink has a lot of bomb techs, Ness is not so heavy.

I'm going with like spark. But I needs pocket cause I struggle with . And I'm not going with cause I'be tried him already. Didn't work

 

[Lord Dio]

With help from my friend/ fellow Roy main I've gotten it down to . (Yes... TL is back... again) now which 2 'ale the best pockets for ?
My worst matchups with Roy are .

I'd advise not picking Cloud, iirc, 2 of his worst matchups are in that list.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

So with my im looking for a pocket. I'm thinkingare my best choices. Who should I go with? Who should I not go with?
Again my worst matchups are

 

[DeltaForce]

In my opinion Pikachu covers those matchups the best. However I would Never ever recommend Pikachu for a secondary Pikachu is crazy hard to learn. A super high learning curve and a boatload of tech to learn. I wouldn't do cloud either since Pika is a bad MU
for him. I would pick someone who can deal with Megaman who is arguably sonics worst matchup. Can you tell me how long you actually played Mario? Did you lab with him? Because I suspect that you have a problem with an MU and you decide I cannot learn matchups I gotta pick a new character. I have gone through this myself where At that point in time I have issues with a certain matchup. Most of the time I just do some research and learn the matchup. I have looked at your posts and your matchups you struggle with keep changing. I think a Mario and a Sonic would be good pockets for Roy personally because sonic has pretty good and even matchups and Mario can deal with Megaman.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

In my opinion Pikachu covers those matchups the best. However I would Never ever recommend Pikachu for a secondary Pikachu is crazy hard to learn. A super high learning curve and a boatload of tech to learn. I wouldn't do cloud either since Pika is a bad MU
for him. I would pick someone who can deal with Megaman who is arguably sonics worst matchup. Can you tell me how long you actually played Mario? Did you lab with him? Because I suspect that you have a problem with an MU and you decide I cannot learn matchups I gotta pick a new character. I have gone through this myself where At that point in time I have issues with a certain matchup. Most of the time I just do some research and learn the matchup. I have looked at your posts and your matchups you struggle with keep changing. I think a Mario and a Sonic would be good pockets for Roy personally because sonic has pretty good and even matchups and Mario can deal with Megaman.

I used to dual main . And he's just not working out. I've got as the two I wanna choose from since I'm doing good with them and they've got the best chances against most of the characters I'm struggling with.

 

[DeltaForce]

Not really, Tink isn't very good against other projectile character he is bad against most of the characters you mentioned Villy Megaman and Tink ditto. Tink also isn't that good against cloud or Sonic. Pika is good against Tink and Corrin idk.

Ness can be effective against Pikachu. Cloud Ness simply gets outranged and cannot really be very effective. Same with Corrin With sonic and Tink it is even and Villy he gets destroyed. Megaman he has an advantage.

In short Ness is better by one matchup I would personally recommend neither. And no they do not have the best chance against the MUs you have trouble with.

You did not answer my question though how long did you play Mario before you quit him? Also every few days you have added and taken away MUs that you have trouble with. I feel like you are a bit too flighty with Bad MUs and counter picks. Not every bad MU needs a counter pick.

My previous statement still stands Mario is the Optimal pick in my opinion in this situation. Unless your bad MU sheet is totally different tomorrow or in an hour idk.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Not really, Tink isn't very good against other projectile character he is bad against most of the characters you mentioned Villy Megaman and Tink ditto. Tink also isn't that good against cloud or Sonic. Pika is good against Tink and Corrin idk.

Ness can be effective against Pikachu. Cloud Ness simply gets outranged and cannot really be very effective. Same with Corrin With sonic and Tink it is even and Villy he gets destroyed. Megaman he has an advantage.

In short Ness is better by one matchup I would personally recommend neither. And no they do not have the best chance against the MUs you have trouble with.

You did not answer my question though how long did you play Mario before you quit him? Also every few days you have added and taken away MUs that you have trouble with. I feel like you are a bit too flighty with Bad MUs and counter picks. Not every bad MU needs a counter pick.

My previous statement still stands Mario is the Optimal pick in my opinion in this situation. Unless your bad MU sheet is totally different tomorrow or in an hour idk.

I was using for about 2 months when I decided to drop him. He's just not working for me. My only choice as now are

 

[DeltaForce]

Ok you were talking earlier today and I heard nothing on ZSS or Marth. Dude I cannot give advice to you until you solidify your issue and possible counterpicks. I want more details on what was wrong with your Mario he is a great counterpick and faces all the bad MUs you ever listed pretty solidly and the ones he cannot deal with Sonic and Roy will cover.

Make up your mind. Then I can help -_-

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Ok you were talking earlier today and I heard nothing on ZSS or Marth. Dude I cannot give advice to you until you solidify your issue and possible counterpicks. I want more details on what was wrong with your Mario he is a great counterpick and faces all the bad MUs you ever listed pretty solidly and the ones he cannot deal with Sonic and Roy will cover.

Make up your mind. Then I can help -_-

Ok so I forgot to add them () cause I spaced them out earlier. I dont like mario really anymore he just feels weird and I'm just not doing good with him also theres already a ton of marios in my area so I just dont wanna use him. Also ive been able to say that the only three that I really need a pocket for are since they give me the most trouble. the others i can handle.
So, out of who does best against .

When testing with my friend I've found out and now are my best choices. Being the bigger threats, but still being one.

Has also become a good choice. Adding him to the list with .

 

[DeltaForce]

You have put me in a pickle, all the characters that you want to be secondaries are skill heavy characters which are horrible for a secondary. It could mean that you would have to put more practice into you secondary than your main. With the bad MUs you have listed I feel TL is the best choice for you since he is a bit less complicated. All of the characters you have listed would work in the MUs you have listed so you can pick but I feel like personally if you pick a character that is more skill heavy than your main why don't you main the secondary instead. If you feel like I am an idiot than I would go with TL. Happy smashing!

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

You have put me in a pickle, all the characters that you want to be secondaries are skill heavy characters which are horrible for a secondary. It could mean that you would have to put more practice into you secondary than your main. With the bad MUs you have listed I feel TL is the best choice for you since he is a bit less complicated. All of the characters you have listed would work in the MUs you have listed so you can pick but I feel like personally if you pick a character that is more skill heavy than your main why don't you main the secondary instead. If you feel like I am an idiot than I would go with TL. Happy smashing!

The high skill thing isn't an issue for me. The only characters im not using due to skill stuff is And that's because they are the most technical. Are fine.

UPDATE: I'm only considering now.

 

[DJBor]

I'm back.
The quest for the final roster was 100% complete! And then I found a gaping hole- actually, a considerable amount of top tiers were not covered by the wonder combo.
, ... and . I can't figure out the Shulk/Rosa matchup, even though in theory it's 55/45 Shulk! Meanwhile, Sheik and Fox are historically terrible for both Villager and Shulk.
So it's time for one more round of Mains Advice.
The candidates: (in order of experience, not how much I think I'm good at them)
DO NOT under any circumstances say ZSS or Mewtwo is best under the presumption that "they're top tier". (On my list, they're high tier. 10th and 11th, to be precise.)
Ready? Go.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I'm back.
The quest for the final roster was 100% complete! And then I found a gaping hole- actually, a considerable amount of top tiers were not covered by the wonder combo.
, ... and . I can't figure out the Shulk/Rosa matchup, even though in theory it's 55/45 Shulk! Meanwhile, Sheik and Fox are historically terrible for both Villager and Shulk.
So it's time for one more round of Mains Advice.
The candidates: (in order of experience, not how much I think I'm good at them)
DO NOT under any circumstances say ZSS or Mewtwo is best under the presumption that "they're top tier". (On my list, they're high tier. 10th and 11th, to be precise.)
Ready? Go.

Can do well against both as long as you can handle being comboed... a lot. Go even with them so whichever of the two you like more if you don't like dk. Also zss and mew2 beat so there you go.
So in short use mewtwo or zss. Donkey king being the 3rd best choice if you really like him

 

[DJBor]

All right, I'm gonna say no .
Can I get an opinion on ? Greninja has pretty good matchups and Robin is surprisingly effective against speedy brawlers.
(also I have trouble with , so consider that too)

 

[KniteBlargh]

DJBor Are you wondering about them as co-mains, or separately?

Honestly, if you found the Shulk/Rosa MU frustrating, there's way more to frustrate you about Robin/Rosa in my opinion... I'm not saying it isn't doable, but his options for taking out Luma either just aren't too hot, or get punished pretty easily by Rosa, and then there's the fact that Rosa can camp Robin very easily when without Luma due to Robin's low movement speed; projectiles aren't too big of a threat to her either (except for ledge traps) since she can basically just run away and absorb. It's pretty annoying. LOL But I agree that Robin is decent when it comes to shutting down the other chars you mentioned, keeping them outside of his personal space (LOL) and exploiting their vulnerabilities, it's just that you may find this particular MU outweighs the rest depending on your local scene and such.

I feel like Greninja would be a more balanced option VS everyone you're struggling with (a counter is always a nice thing to have when people are getting too aggro happy, too). He's short enough to make him trickier to hit in some cases, big on combos (which is great since everyone in your little list except for Rosa is combo food), and I feel he has safer options for taking out Luma and dealing with solo Rosa.

Both require a lot of watchfulness and precision, though I'd say more so in Greninja's case. Co-maining might be difficult to manage, but there's no reason you shouldn't give it a shot; I think you and I have always been suckers for the intricacies of various characters anyway...

Hope this helped in some way.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

All right, I'm gonna say no .
Can I get an opinion on ? Greninja has pretty good matchups and Robin is surprisingly effective against speedy brawlers.
(also I have trouble with , so consider that too)

Is very technical and a bad idea to use as a secondary/ pocket. He should be a main. And loses to Sheik and Fox as they are fast and don't struggle against projectiles. (Hes decent against sonic, but the other fast characters are hard). Are your best choices easily. The other two are just gonna give you more of a struggle in one way or another.

 

[Ralugi]

I'm searching for a main again.

I'm looking for a character who's aggressive, yet can force people to approach. One with great frame data with some tech skill I can search for. I just wanna find a character that I can get behind permanently.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I'm searching for a main again.

I'm looking for a character who's aggressive, yet can force people to approach. One with great frame data with some tech skill I can search for. I just wanna find a character that I can get behind permanently.

Sounds like you're looking for . They're your best bets. Try them out let us know what you think.

 

[Ralugi]

Is very promising, but so is.

 

[DJBor]

I'm looking for a tertiary for specifically those four matchups. I'm already a Villager main and Shulk secondary.
is looking most likely. Mewtwo is still leaving a bad taste in my mouth from when I mained him, also I'm starting to believe what everyone's been saying recently about ZSS not being top tier. (Current rank on my fluctuating tier list is 11, so...)

Update- ZSS gets thrashed by . So does Mewtwo. Probably going Greninja... and don't tell me "he's too technical", I mained him for half a year and I know what he's about.
So now it's down to or . Either will work.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I'm looking for a tertiary for specifically those four matchups. I'm already a Villager main and Shulk secondary.
is looking most likely. Mewtwo is still leaving a bad taste in my mouth from when I mained him, also I'm starting to believe what everyone's been saying recently about ZSS not being top tier. (Current rank on my fluctuating tier list is 11, so...)

Update- ZSS gets thrashed by . So does Mewtwo. Probably going Greninja... and don't tell me "he's too technical", I mained him for half a year and I know what he's about.
So now it's down to or . Either will work.

I use . She goes even with but if you aren't careful it'll be tough. Larry Lurr also says mewtwo wins or atleast goes even.

But either way between and , is the better choice so I'd recommend you go with him.

 

[DeltaForce]

New I'm back.
The quest for the final roster was 100% complete! And then I found a gaping hole- actually, a considerable amount of top tiers were not covered by the wonder combo.
, ... and . I can't figure out the Shulk/Rosa matchup, even though in theory it's 55/45 Shulk! Meanwhile, Sheik and Fox are historically terrible for both Villager and Shulk.
So it's time for one more round of Mains Advice.
The candidates: (in order of experience, not how much I think I'm good at them)
DO NOT under any circumstances say ZSS or Mewtwo is best under the presumption that "they're top tier". (On my list, they're high tier. 10th and 11th, to be precise.)
Ready? Go.

I feel bad for saying it but maybe you should drop Shulk and use Cloud. Better frame data better MUs and Cloud helps you handle Rosa a ton and Sheik and Fox it is more of an even matchup. So I think dropping Shulk for Cloud would be a good idea because of the efficiency. Instead of getting a third character which will take time and effort from your other character you swap one of your characters to a similar character who is easy to learn and play. This would also allow you to learn and get better with your Villager. If you have some sort of attachment to Shulk and think That I am crazy than ignore me. I am speaking purely strategically and froma competitive standpoint.

To sum it up I am saying to Main villager drop Shulk and Secondary Cloud.

 

[DJBor]

Excuse me??? Do you not know The Monado's Power??? *clears throat* Sorry, got a little... triggered.

Anyway, I'm going to start doing some independent testing to determine which is better. I'm not kidding when I say that Robin can handle speedy brawlers. Greninja can do most of the stuff I was already doing with ZSS and Mewtwo, but can handle Fox much better. So either will work... I simply need to find which one I am better with.

 

[Rexaf]

Hey, I'm a cloud main. I found that a lot of the players I fight don't do well against solid defence and projectile play. I've been thinking along those lines for a secondary, who would you recommend

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Hey, I'm a cloud main. I found that a lot of the players I fight don't do well against solid defence and projectile play. I've been thinking along those lines for a secondary, who would you recommend

Are the projectile characters so one of them.

 

[Ralugi]

Are the projectile characters so one of them.

I'd chop that list down to Villager and Robin. The rest have some wonky tech