Q&A The 'Mains' Advice Thread

[KniteBlargh]

@StormKnight is both heavy on the combos and technical, so unless you're really bent on playing him, or the guy you know is a great teacher, I'm not sure he'd match what you're looking for.

I would say , / or / could fit what you want out of your main. Corrin is slower than he used to be, yeah, but the range on some of his attacks is crazy, and his bair gives him some interesting movement/poking options. Marth is a bit more technical than Lucina due to his tipper mechanics, also giving him slightly more combo variations than Lucina depending on the hitbox, whereas Lucina focuses more on getting that jab 1 or down tilt to open up string/KO opportunities. The Pits are very similar, but their slight differences actually help each cover some MUs better than the other. However, if you'd only want to play one of them, Pit's arrows are maneuvarable enough to help him get in a little extra chip damage from a distance and/or cause his opponent to react in a way that puts them in more danger. He also has a tipper on his forward tilt that can kill at high %s. Dark Pit sacrifices some of the arrow goodness for a very strong side special that can give him early KOs and launch Luma back out to space. His forward tilt does not have a tipper, but it can jab lock, setting up for another throw or whatever you have in mind.

If you're wondering who would offer you the greatest variety in playstyle out of those few, I would probably narrow down a little more to either Corrin or the Pits.

Hope this helps.

 

[DJBor]

What is this @StormKnight, the Sorting Hat?
I'm really lost with how many character icons are on the screen, but from what I'm getting your views on characters are similar to my own. Except that I play Shulk. But that aside, I can see what you're searching for in a main. Here's some more options you could go with.

is totally fine. Sure he can't run, but as long as you learn the math for item drops, Robin can be really effective with a well-rounded style.
You mentioned , which all are well-rounded and successful characters. Go ahead and try them all. (btw you do not need any tech to be good with Greninja.)
Also consider , grappler superstars and really well-rounded. Of course, you might need a secondary for a couple bad matchups (like ), but for the most part either can work.

 

[Egghead]

Anybody want to create a checklist together to see what character one should use?
Something like

What combos do you like?
a) Horizontal
b) Vertical
c) Up-Tilt juggles
d) Technical

 

[DJBor]

Don't forget about e) Projectile conversions and f) Combos not necessary

Some more questions that are really important: Preferred ground movement speed? Air movement? Weight?

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I've been having a difficult time deciding on a main. I used to play in friendlies but since I've gone to tournaments I want to try something new. I've narrowed it down to a couple:
Character wishlist: I'm not too hot on characters like. Everyone already plays them, and everyone knows how to beat them. I'd rather be someone who loses with or than be another rando.
I'd love to play or but they're so technical and combo-heavy that I feel like I'd never be able to get a handle on them. I'm not great at long combos in any game.
I like but he's hard to play. is really fun but she's hard to play and doesn't get as much out of good play as other characters. There's a guy I know who has a good that might be able to teach me.

I refuse to play .

I tend to like characters that are balanced. They can be aggressive, but they're also good at playing defensively and don't completely dissolve under pressure. Out of these characters or any of the roster besides my banned list, what should I play? I want to choose something and stick with it.

Is very technical and combo heavy so he may not be the best choice unless that one guy can teach you stuff. Other than that I think are your best choices since they aren't super hard to learn and aren't combo heavy. Try them out in tournament and tell us what you think.

 

[MarshieMan]

After binge reading more than half of this thread, i have noticed a few common issues with choosing a main that arent really being adequatley addressed.

1. Technically speaking, you can only really have one "main". Co-maining isnt a thing because you will always have a fallback character, and if you switch between them based on MUs then thats called counterpicking. Those are two distinctly different things.
2. Adding to the first point, secondaries and pockets are two different things as well. A pocket is merely a character you know how to use, and can use effectively when its needed. A secondary is a character you choose who specifically covers your main's weaknesses. Secondaries require a lot more practice than pockets.
3. Solo-maining is a completely viable strategy. Most the people here seem to think that having 3+ characters under your belt is optimal, but youre often better off to just choose one and stick with it (look at almost every top level player, they have one main and one main only).
4. Projectiles are not a big deal, and neither are reflectors. Youre better off to just stay grounded and perfect shield projectiles.
5. Pika is not a difficult character to learn or use. Once you understand his basic gameplay he could definitely be a viable secondary, especially since he has an excellent MU spread against top tiers specifically. Hes not as easy to use as, say, mario, but hes nowhere near as complex as ryu or sheik.
6. Choose your main based off of what character's PLAYSTYLE you enjoy the most, and if necessary, pick a secondary to cover their weaknesses (unless youre counterpicking). Emphasis on playstyle because a lot of people choose mains based on what CHARACTER they enjoy the most (ex: "i love xenoblade therefore im going to use shulk" VS "i love mid range zoning and the Art mechanic, therefore im going to use shulk") its a subtle, but very important difference.

I feel like point #6 is the most relevant and important of them all, as far as advice.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

After binge reading more than half of this thread, i have noticed a few common issues with choosing a main that arent really being adequatley addressed.

1. Technically speaking, you can only really have one "main". Co-maining isnt a thing because you will always have a fallback character, and if you switch between them based on MUs then thats called counterpicking. Those are two distinctly different things.
2. Adding to the first point, secondaries and pockets are two different things as well. A pocket is merely a character you know how to use, and can use effectively when its needed. A secondary is a character you choose who specifically covers your main's weaknesses. Secondaries require a lot more practice than pockets.
3. Solo-maining is a completely viable strategy. Most the people here seem to think that having 3+ characters under your belt is optimal, but youre often better off to just choose one and stick with it (look at almost every top level player, they have one main and one main only).
4. Projectiles are not a big deal, and neither are reflectors. Youre better off to just stay grounded and perfect shield projectiles.
5. Pika is not a difficult character to learn or use. Once you understand his basic gameplay he could definitely be a viable secondary, especially since he has an excellent MU spread against top tiers specifically. Hes not as easy to use as, say, mario, but hes nowhere near as complex as ryu or sheik.
6. Choose your main based off of what character's PLAYSTYLE you enjoy the most, and if necessary, pick a secondary to cover their weaknesses (unless youre counterpicking). Emphasis on playstyle because a lot of people choose mains based on what CHARACTER they enjoy the most (ex: "i love xenoblade therefore im going to use shulk" VS "i love mid range zoning and the Art mechanic, therefore im going to use shulk") its a subtle, but very important difference.

I feel like point #6 is the most relevant and important of them all, as far as advice.

Thanks so much this is really helpful. Couple things in response to it. Those of us who use 3 realize it's not nearly as good as using 1-2 characters, but we struggle to narrow down past 3, also just enjoy them so much.

Also I just wanted to note that I've been on this thread since like page 45 I think as @Kirito_SAO for a bit and it's been so cool watching so many new people come and how the old ones have improved a d switch characters and given advice.

Lastly if it's ok with you MarshieMan id add #7 to your list being when choosing a main/ secondaries pick the characters who feel natural to you. Pick the ones who just click and you don't have to be deeply thinking about what you should do next. For example I'm not gonna use since I catch myself having to think about my next move rather than just reacting like I do with . Now obviously you should plan your next move, but when a character comes naturally to you you'll know.

 

[MarshieMan]

Yeah i definitely agree. I know when i started with my current main it just felt natural to me. I know its probably hard for a lot of people to find a main in such a simple way.

 

[DeltaForce]

After binge reading more than half of this thread, i have noticed a few common issues with choosing a main that arent really being adequatley addressed.

1. Technically speaking, you can only really have one "main". Co-maining isnt a thing because you will always have a fallback character, and if you switch between them based on MUs then thats called counterpicking. Those are two distinctly different things.
2. Adding to the first point, secondaries and pockets are two different things as well. A pocket is merely a character you know how to use, and can use effectively when its needed. A secondary is a character you choose who specifically covers your main's weaknesses. Secondaries require a lot more practice than pockets.
3. Solo-maining is a completely viable strategy. Most the people here seem to think that having 3+ characters under your belt is optimal, but youre often better off to just choose one and stick with it (look at almost every top level player, they have one main and one main only).
4. Projectiles are not a big deal, and neither are reflectors. Youre better off to just stay grounded and perfect shield projectiles.
5. Pika is not a difficult character to learn or use. Once you understand his basic gameplay he could definitely be a viable secondary, especially since he has an excellent MU spread against top tiers specifically. Hes not as easy to use as, say, mario, but hes nowhere near as complex as ryu or sheik.
6. Choose your main based off of what character's PLAYSTYLE you enjoy the most, and if necessary, pick a secondary to cover their weaknesses (unless youre counterpicking). Emphasis on playstyle because a lot of people choose mains based on what CHARACTER they enjoy the most (ex: "i love xenoblade therefore im going to use shulk" VS "i love mid range zoning and the Art mechanic, therefore im going to use shulk") its a subtle, but very important difference.

I feel like point #6 is the most relevant and important of them all, as far as advice.

Most of the stuff you have commented on is perfectly viable and is probably more effective though I disagree with a few points.

First of all I feel like Co-maining can be a "thing" because of the fact of usage of your characters. You do not necessarily need to counter pick some characters but you might prefer to use another character for that situation could still be called a secondary, but what if you use your "secondary" for around the same amount of characters and situations as your "main" (the air quotes mean I am using the term by your definition not mine) then why can't you call it a co-main? Also Co-maining can be effective because of the fact that you are ambiguous in your playstyle. Say you want to play a more aggressive character to start off you match and an opponent is really effective bait and punish so you end up losing games because of this. If you had a "secondary" then you may not have as much skill with that character fighting the opponents "main" unless you had a big MU advantage. If you had a Co-main you would be able to much more easily switch play styles because of the fact. There is a drawback to co-maining if you have a Co-main vs a main you would lose possibly skill with that one character for maybe a more flexible playstyle. It is a trade off do you want to be able to adjust easily or have high skill in one area or character or playstyle? Moving to the professional side of things you have a point with professionals not having Co-mains but also you have to look at the coloration between that and the people who play high-tiers at a professional level. High tier characters usually need less matchup and playstyle coverage because of their ambiguity. For example I could be wrong but when has ESAM beaten a high level Mario in tournament? Food for thought.

Next off I have an issue with "5. Pika is not a difficult character to learn or use. Once you understand his basic gameplay he could definitely be a viable secondary, especially since he has an excellent MU spread against top tiers specifically. Hes not as easy to use as, say, mario, but hes nowhere near as complex as ryu or sheik." As a Pikachu main I feel it is my right to say BOI!!!! Now for the analysis: Ok first off how much experience do you have with Pikachu in general? I do not feel like that's true unless you have played him longer than me (About 2 years) then I am curious what makes you think that. Alright lets look at some competitive examples if Pikachu is such an easy secondary then why don't more people use him as one competitively? Only one I can think of is NAKAT. That is it, I have never seen someone in top level play use Pikachu as a secondary. Now to move one to tech Pikachu has plently of tech to learn for him. His killing is lackluster so you need to put a lot a technical skill into RAR thunder, utilize Jablock setups FF Fair to upsmash, and there might be some more I do not know about besides raw reads. That is just the tech for killing, Pikachu has some kill confirms at low percents (Certain characters) Fair footstool, Fair frame advantage, how to intelligently use QA, footstool setups, chain grabbing. Thats not even half of what top level Pikas have to know. So please tell me how Pikachu is easy to use because I am truly confused.

Finally I have a bit of a difference of opinion with reflectors, so I feel that reflectors may not always be useful they can be useful if the opponent camps projectiles since you are constantly sending projectiles back at them instead of them just keep hitting their shield. Basically it is an anti camping tool.

I am not trying to be negative I just feel like I have a different opinion on what you have said and that I should share my view on it. (Except for the Pikachu comment that is just no just no) Feel free to reply a debate can help other people on this thread as well.

 

[MarshieMan]

Most of the stuff you have commented on is perfectly viable and is probably more effective though I disagree with a few points.

First of all I feel like Co-maining can be a "thing" because of the fact of usage of your characters. You do not necessarily need to counter pick some characters but you might prefer to use another character for that situation could still be called a secondary, but what if you use your "secondary" for around the same amount of characters and situations as your "main" (the air quotes mean I am using the term by your definition not mine) then why can't you call it a co-main? Also Co-maining can be effective because of the fact that you are ambiguous in your playstyle. Say you want to play a more aggressive character to start off you match and an opponent is really effective bait and punish so you end up losing games because of this. If you had a "secondary" then you may not have as much skill with that character fighting the opponents "main" unless you had a big MU advantage. If you had a Co-main you would be able to much more easily switch play styles because of the fact. There is a drawback to co-maining if you have a Co-main vs a main you would lose possibly skill with that one character for maybe a more flexible playstyle. It is a trade off do you want to be able to adjust easily or have high skill in one area or character or playstyle? Moving to the professional side of things you have a point with professionals not having Co-mains but also you have to look at the coloration between that and the people who play high-tiers at a professional level. High tier characters usually need less matchup and playstyle coverage because of their ambiguity. For example I could be wrong but when has ESAM beaten a high level Mario in tournament? Food for thought.

Co-maining is not a thing because youre splitting your time between two characters instead of one, and the second character you pick isnt covering the weaknesses of the first. If they do, then its a secondary. Also what do you keep meaning by "ambiguity"? If anything, top tiers have the least ambiguity of the whole cast because of how common they are. I dont even understand what esam beating a mario has to do with this.

If youre aiming for a "flexible" playstyle, then you might as well just counterpick. Using a co-maining strategy is possibly the least effective of them all, which is why literally nobody in mid to top level does it. Thats why im saying it isnt a thing.

Next off I have an issue with "5. Pika is not a difficult character to learn or use. Once you understand his basic gameplay he could definitely be a viable secondary, especially since he has an excellent MU spread against top tiers specifically. Hes not as easy to use as, say, mario, but hes nowhere near as complex as ryu or sheik." As a Pikachu main I feel it is my right to say BOI!!!! Now for the analysis: Ok first off how much experience do you have with Pikachu in general? I do not feel like that's true unless you have played him longer than me (About 2 years) then I am curious what makes you think that. Alright lets look at some competitive examples if Pikachu is such an easy secondary then why don't more people use him as one competitively? Only one I can think of is NAKAT. That is it, I have never seen someone in top level play use Pikachu as a secondary. Now to move one to tech Pikachu has plently of tech to learn for him. His killing is lackluster so you need to put a lot a technical skill into RAR thunder, utilize Jablock setups FF Fair to upsmash, and there might be some more I do not know about besides raw reads. That is just the tech for killing, Pikachu has some kill confirms at low percents (Certain characters) Fair footstool, Fair frame advantage, how to intelligently use QA, footstool setups, chain grabbing. Thats not even half of what top level Pikas have to know. So please tell me how Pikachu is easy to use because I am truly confused.

As i said, pikachu is definitely harder to use than some characters, but you need to keep it in perspective. Also to answer your question ive had pikachu as a secondary since the wii u release.
Most of the stuff you mentioned is either relatively easy to do or unnecessary. FF fair > Usmash is super easy. His throw combos are easy bake Uthrow > Uair > Nair etc which half the cast has anyways. His projectile alone shuts down so many MUs. Hes difficult to combo, and has amazing recovery. Admittedly, his kill confirm Uthrow > wavebounce thunder is super hard to do, but that and (kinda) his jab locks are the only sorta hard stuff he has to deal with. Meanwhile sheik has to deal with sourspot Nair > bouncing fish, Ftilt > Vanish, B reverse needle cancelling, super sliding, cancelling grenade off the edge, super long strings with low damage, and horrible kill potential.

Finally I have a bit of a difference of opinion with reflectors, so I feel that reflectors may not always be useful they can be useful if the opponent camps projectiles since you are constantly sending projectiles back at them instead of them just keep hitting their shield. Basically it is an anti camping tool.

When have you ever reflected something and have it actually hit your opponent in tournament? Because ive never seen it in the 400+ tourneys ive been to. It occasionally happens high level but its so amazing that it pops up in highlight reels. Thats how rare it is.
Also very few characters can effectively projectile camp, and a reflector wont do you a whole lot of good against them (ie: megaman and DHD). Low level, reflectors are kind of useful, but past that they are a risk and a burden.

 

[Krysco]

Spoiler: Some backstory

Got into competitive Smash back in Brawl where I mained Wolf and had a Pika secondary (made every mu even except for Diddy and MK if you don't believe Pika went even with him). Got this game when it first came out, started off wanting to main then switched to either or then the other then focused on for the longest time. Dropped him once I saw that his meta was leaning towards the prepatch ladder combo and basically nothing else. Then basically hopped from character to character before focusing on who I then demoted to a secondary/pocket because he has an infinite and I fear it'll become the focus of his meta much like MK and his ladder combo. Now I consider myself a main but I'm not really attached to him like I was with Wolf, Melee Doc, or Melee and Brawl Ganon and Pika. So I'm once again debating on who to main.

TL;DR I'm back to debating who to focus on in this game and I'm back to having a large number of possible options too. Figured I'd post here to see if I could get some help.

I'm debating between all of these characters . Quite a lot but I've managed to trim the fat a bit with this thinking: I want to main someone fun, since that's what I play the game for. If my only focus was winning then this would be a no brainer and I'd focus on any combination of Cloud, Fox, Mario and/or Mewtwo. Looking at my list, the least fun characters to me are Cloud, Mario, possibly Doc and to a point Pit. I also want to main someone who has all or mostly fun mus. This cuts a lot more fat since I know Kirby has a terrible Sonic mu, Ganon has...a lot of horrible mus, namely Bayo and Sheik, Mac has a terrible Pac-man mu and after that it gets a bit iffy. I've heard that R.O.B. has a bad ZSS mu but Idk how bad it is. Same goes for Mewtwo and his Diddy mu along with Pika and his Mario mu and just looking at tier placement, I can imagine Doc, Falco, Ike, Robin and Roy have horrible mus too.

I'm fine with having some bad mus, after all, I main Ganon in Melee and Wolf in Brawl who both have awful mus but that's where secondaries come in. Got Pika as a secondary in both games and Doc in Melee too. Some other things to note are that Doc, Fox, Ike and Pika are more hypothetical than the others. I'm a lot less familiar with those 4 in this game than the rest on the list. Doc and Pika are mostly just an interest to me since I liked them in previous games while Ike and Fox are characters I've only dabbled a bit in and I'm not 100% sure on whether I'd enjoy them or not.

I know for a fact that I want to at least work on Roy since he's a relatively unexplored character and I want to see if I can further his meta at all. Doesn't mean I'm guaranteed to stick with him though, he's pretty much an experiment. I also know that I want to at least focus on 1 character with a means of killing off of a grab. Pretty much just because of Bayo's Bat Within and Witch Time. From my list that includes, Mewtwo (uthrow and bthrow), Robin (Checkmate and bthrow), kinda R.O.B. (uthrow), kinda Doc (bthrow), kinda Mario (bthrow), kinda Pit (fthrow) and kinda Kirby (uthrow).

For playstyles, I've always liked Mario and his clones, always liked Pika though I never really tried him in 64, always liked Ganon though at a competitive level, I don't think I'd want to deal with him in this game or Brawl and from Brawl onwards, I've liked Kirby. Seeing as how I've liked Mario, Wolf, Kirby and like Pit in this game, I guess my preferred playstyle is all rounded.

Looking at the posts that have come up while I've typed this, it seems the smartest thing to do would be to focus on Roy since I'm dead certain on wanting to use him for the time being and pick someone who covers his bad mus (which there could be a lot of. He is currently 6th worst after all). Mewtwo also seems like a decent option since I still find him fun and he's certainly viable. My whole issue with him is his infinite. Brawl D3 degraded to just his chain grab and Brawl Falco degraded to pretty much just shdl and his chaingrab while Sm4sh MK was degrading to just his ladder combo. ICies in the last 2 installments degraded to wobbling and chaingrabs. A character stops being fun to me when most of their moves become moot in favour of a few over powered ones. Pika also seems like a decent option but idk. I never really picked him up in this game since he lacks chaingrabs, QAC is more limited, his amazing recovery isn't as much to boast about since most everyone has good recoveries. That also hampers his amazing edgeguarding and he struggles to kill. No kill confirms aside from that uthrow Thunder thing which I've heard be anywhere from a guaranteed thing to a 50/50 to a 33/33/33. No killing aerials either and he's light and in a game with rage.

After this huge wall of text, my best bets seem to be Roy for experimenting, Mewtwo so long as his infinite doesn't become his entire game and Pika if I can enjoy him. They all have ifs though. Anyways, I've somewhat answered my own question but I'll post this anyways to see what advice I can get. Helps, to visualize my own thoughts and get feedback.

 

[DJBor]

Krysco The new Mewtwo combo that I've seen people using so that they don't need the infinite is that they start the combo, but instead of a DJC footstool, they use a close hitbox up tilt into up smash for the KO. It's no less fair than Diddy's banana confirms, so why not just use that?

Also try out , you might find luck there. Flashy footstool combos, but doesn't rely on them, and they're far from infinite. Similar speed and spacing mechanics to Mewtwo as well.

 

[Krysco]

Krysco The new Mewtwo combo that I've seen people using so that they don't need the infinite is that they start the combo, but instead of a DJC footstool, they use a close hitbox up tilt into up smash for the KO. It's no less fair than Diddy's banana confirms, so why not just use that?

Also try out , you might find luck there. Flashy footstool combos, but doesn't rely on them, and they're far from infinite. Similar speed and spacing mechanics to Mewtwo as well.

If I do focus back on Mewtwo, I need to look up what new stuff has been found while I've been ignoring him like combos like that.

As for Greninja, as someone who was a Wolf main going to Sm4sh, I've seen someone else suggest either Roy or Greninja as possible replacements. Never really gave the frog too much attention but if he's similar to Wolf and/or Mewtwo, I could see about giving him a try though it'd basically be new territory for me.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Could I get some help dealing with ? I end up struggling against this guy a fair deal(me for the most part losing), and only end up clutching it up a couple of times with and . My mains are: and . Secundaries: , , , , and . Used to have trouble against but after Abadango vs Ryo at Smash Con 2016, had noticeably less trouble.

 

[KniteBlargh]

Ark of Silence101 In future, getting help with a particular match-up is something you want to do on that character's forum (i.e. ask Bowser mains what they find difficult to deal with, or ask those who play some of your characters how they manage to deal with Bowser). This thread is for finding your main, and it looks like you've already found quite a few characters.

Nevertheless, let's see if I can help you out with this... We'll focus on Roy and Lucina since you use them the most. I think one of Roy's biggest issues against the likes of Bowser is that his range is somewhat lacking making him vulnerable to Bowser's great pivot grab and other scary maneuvers, so he has to resort more to baiting with footsies and safely spaced attacks hoping for a good opening to capitalize on. Whatever you do, don't forget Roy's jab, because it comes out quickly and can be a life-saving "get off me" attack. I'll stop there with Roy, but Nice_FZPSC.42 might be able to help you more since he uses Roy a great deal, though I remember him saying he also struggled with Bowser at some point. Moving on to Lucina, with patience and watchfulness, you literally have more room to work with in my opinion. Her walking speed is fast, which is great since some of her more important moves can be easily used directly out of walking. Jab has more range than Roy's and sets up strings/kills that can actually be easier to hit on Bowser, especially if he reacts badly (landing lag and such). Down tilt is another great move for poking and/or setting up for a chase (can follow up after a down tilt on Bowser at higher %s than other characters due to his giant hurtbox). Lucina's aerials also have decent range, giving you more room to play around Bowser's shield, using retreating fairs, etc. Some Bowsers like to shield quite a bit, and you have a little thing called shield breaker... Don't abuse it, but if you see the opportunity or can get a read on the Bowser's habits, use it!

General advice: I feel like it's good practice to always expect a Bowser to use down special or dair when above you. We all know the reason those aren't great options, but even the best Bowsers use them on ocassion just to catch people off-guard, and if you aren't expecting them, you will hurt majorly. So, you could try baiting out one of those moves, but just in general try to play around the sides of the area where Bowser would end up landing, and also space your aerials so as to avoid the danger zone while you're both airborne.

Anyway, hope this was at least somewhat helpful.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Ark of Silence101 In future, getting help with a particular match-up is something you want to do on that character's forum (i.e. ask Bowser mains what they find difficult to deal with, or ask those who play some of your characters how they manage to deal with Bowser). This thread is for finding your main, and it looks like you've already found quite a few characters.

Nevertheless, let's see if I can help you out with this... We'll focus on Roy and Lucina since you use them the most. I think one of Roy's biggest issues against the likes of Bowser is that his range is somewhat lacking making him vulnerable to Bowser's great pivot grab and other scary maneuvers, so he has to resort more to baiting with footsies and safely spaced attacks hoping for a good opening to capitalize on. Whatever you do, don't forget Roy's jab, because it comes out quickly and can be a life-saving "get off me" attack. I'll stop there with Roy, but Nice_FZPSC.42 might be able to help you more since he uses Roy a great deal, though I remember him saying he also struggled with Bowser at some point. Moving on to Lucina, with patience and watchfulness, you literally have more room to work with in my opinion. Her walking speed is fast, which is great since some of her more important moves can be easily used directly out of walking. Jab has more range than Roy's and sets up strings/kills that can actually be easier to hit on Bowser, especially if he reacts badly (landing lag and such). Down tilt is another great move for poking and/or setting up for a chase (can follow up after a down tilt on Bowser at higher %s than other characters due to his giant hurtbox). Lucina's aerials also have decent range, giving you more room to play around Bowser's shield, using retreating fairs, etc. Some Bowsers like to shield quite a bit, and you have a little thing called shield breaker... Don't abuse it, but if you see the opportunity or can get a read on the Bowser's habits, use it!

General advice: I feel like it's good practice to always expect a Bowser to use down special or dair when above you. We all know the reason those aren't great options, but even the best Bowsers use them on ocassion just to catch people off-guard, and if you aren't expecting them, you will hurt majorly. So, you could try baiting out one of those moves, but just in general try to play around the sides of the area where Bowser would end up landing, and also space your aerials so as to avoid the danger zone while you're both airborne.

Anyway, hope this was at least somewhat helpful.

I'll keep that in mind, though sometimes I tend to avoid in character forums because sometimes I just can't get a straight answer but for the most part my questions are solved, one last thing, my region's top players use and , are any of the characters that I am using a good idea against them?

 

[DeltaForce]

New Co-maining is not a thing because youre splitting your time between two characters instead of one, and the second character you pick isnt covering the weaknesses of the first. If they do, then its a secondary. Also what do you keep meaning by "ambiguity"? If anything, top tiers have the least ambiguity of the whole cast because of how common they are. I dont even understand what esam beating a mario has to do with this.

If youre aiming for a "flexible" playstyle, then you might as well just counterpick. Using a co-maining strategy is possibly the least effective of them all, which is why literally nobody in mid to top level does it. Thats why im saying it isnt a thing.
As i said, pikachu is definitely harder to use than some characters, but you need to keep it in perspective. Also to answer your question ive had pikachu as a secondary since the wii u release.
Most of the stuff you mentioned is either relatively easy to do or unnecessary. FF fair > Usmash is super easy. His throw combos are easy bake Uthrow > Uair > Nair etc which half the cast has anyways. His projectile alone shuts down so many MUs. Hes difficult to combo, and has amazing recovery. Admittedly, his kill confirm Uthrow > wavebounce thunder is super hard to do, but that and (kinda) his jab locks are the only sorta hard stuff he has to deal with. Meanwhile sheik has to deal with sourspot Nair > bouncing fish, Ftilt > Vanish, B reverse needle cancelling, super sliding, cancelling grenade off the edge, super long strings with low damage, and horrible kill potential.
When have you ever reflected something and have it actually hit your opponent in tournament? Because ive never seen it in the 400+ tourneys ive been to. It occasionally happens high level but its so amazing that it pops up in highlight reels. Thats how rare it is.
Also very few characters can effectively projectile camp, and a reflector wont do you a whole lot of good against them (ie: megaman and DHD). Low level, reflectors are kind of useful, but past that they are a risk and a burden.

Alright I think Co maining is a thing just not at higher competitive levels.

I felt like the way you described Pikachu did not really so him justice. I feel like Pikachu is a hard and technical character to learn but I would not say he is harder to play than Sheik I would personally put him on top 15 hardest characters to play. I would still not recommend him as a secondary.

My point on reflectors is that they discourage camping you don't have to use it just the threat of it there usually stops projectile camping.

Also just curious who is your main?

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Could I get some help dealing with ? I end up struggling against this guy a fair deal(me for the most part losing), and only end up clutching it up a couple of times with and . My mains are: and . Secundaries: , , , , and . Used to have trouble against but after Abadango vs Ryo at Smash Con 2016, had noticeably less trouble.

Can be very annoying when playing as . Just be patient and punish his lag and combo him a lot. It's 5:5 mu. Can do a little better against him. Also I would recommend only using 2 characters. Use which ever are most fun. Also if you have any other questions for Roy just ask me I main him and learned a lot of stuff with him.

 

[MarshieMan]

Alright I think Co maining is a thing just not at higher competitive levels.

I felt like the way you described Pikachu did not really so him justice. I feel like Pikachu is a hard and technical character to learn but I would not say he is harder to play than Sheik I would personally put him on top 15 hardest characters to play. I would still not recommend him as a secondary.

My point on reflectors is that they discourage camping you don't have to use it just the threat of it there usually stops projectile camping.

Also just curious who is your main?

Im a diddy main. And your statement about reflectors is fair

 

[DeltaForce]

Can be very annoying when playing as . Just be patient and punish his lag and combo him a lot. It's 5:5 mu. Can do a little better against him. Also I would recommend only using 2 characters. Use which ever are most fun. Also if you have any other questions for Roy just ask me I main him and learned a lot of stuff with him.

Yeah 2 characters is probably enough with the exception of a pocket of a simple and effective character like Mario or Cloud.
Ex. I main Pikachu with a Meta Knight Secondary with a pocket Mario

 

[DJBor]

What you could do is something like "King of the Dancing Blade", playing . Then you wouldn't really have many bad matchups at all, probably and maybe . And it's as if you're playing only one character.
If you want a real secondary, you probably want someone to deal with those characters at the least. Probably someone with big hits and strong defensive game, that you won't want to replace your mains with. I'd say is a good choice.


Edit to save space: Either or , after looking at Nice's list of worst matchups, that I can agree with. stops them all in place with projectiles and his underrated reflector, also he's great at physical zoning and easy KO setups. would do the same thing, but with more of a grappling focus and a more active offense instead of defense.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

What you could do is something like "King of the Dancing Blade", playing . Then you wouldn't really have many bad matchups at all, probably and maybe . And it's as if you're playing only one character.
If you want a real secondary, you probably want someone to deal with those characters at the least. Probably someone with big hits and strong defensive game, that you won't want to replace your mains with. I'd say is a good choice.

If he went with he'd be left with kicking your but with a few moe tough mus but it's not the worst choice. The best secondary for them would probably be or. You'd do great but be careful with 4. But if you use Lucina use marth too its more ideal.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Hey guys. I'm in a bit of a rut right now, and I'm hoping to get some genuine advice. After all, this is an advice thread.

Anyway, I've been debating whether or not I should demote Kirby from being a main to a secondary. I love playing as Kirby, after all, he is my favorite of the original 12 Smash Bros characters, and I have him as an option in every game. Yes, even Melee. Why have I been thinking of this? One reason: Kirby's playerbase is garbage. I'm not talking in terms of skill. I'm talking about the toxicity of the community.

Ever see a Kirby player try to tell you how their character is supposedly terrible? They act like ****ing ***** about it, and from my experience in the Kirby Smashcords, they will actively put you down for even daring to say Kirby is anything better than awful. I'll admit that Kirby isn't a great character in Smash 4, but he's at the very least, okay. This whole pessimistic outlook the Kirby community has affected his meta severely, because not only are some Kirby players not trying anything to improve, but they're convinced that Kirby is so bad, it's not even worth trying anything out. I could go on and on about how I wish I could snap each of those players' necks, but that would be a bit much.

I've been thinking of bringing Pit back into the spotlight. I've been playing a lot of Kid Icarus Uprising (great game, awkward control scheme aside), and Pit has always been a character that I did decently with before. I'm not sure how the Pit community is, but I'm sure it's a lot more inviting than the Kirby playerbase ever will be. Have any of you wanted to quit a character because the community was so toxic, you didn't want to be associated with people like that? That's how I feel right now, and let me tell you, it's not a good feeling.

I leave you with this: What should I do?

 

[DJBor]

Why does it really matter what other Kirby players think? Nearly everyone thinks Shulk is bad without tech, that never stopped me. You don't need a community to define your personal playstyle. Why not become the Kirby player to prove that your character is good, all on your own? With a character so underplayed and looked down upon, you pretty much get to make your own meta.
but hey, at least mega man is top 20 on the official tier list.

 

[MarshieMan]

I dont understand how someone can be a kirby main while simultaneously thinking their character is useless crap. Clearly they arent playing the game seriously, because if they were they would just pick a different character.
Ignore them, they arent playing the game seriously anyways. Kirby has good potential and is fun to use.

 

[DeltaForce]

Go for Kirby a toxic community means nothing and like MarshieMan said if they are talking so much trash about Kirby why are they Kirby mains.

Though if you go for a swallowcide i will hate you for eternity.

 

[Reila]

Hey guys. I'm in a bit of a rut right now, and I'm hoping to get some genuine advice. After all, this is an advice thread.

Anyway, I've been debating whether or not I should demote Kirby from being a main to a secondary. I love playing as Kirby, after all, he is my favorite of the original 12 Smash Bros characters, and I have him as an option in every game. Yes, even Melee. Why have I been thinking of this? One reason: Kirby's playerbase is garbage. I'm not talking in terms of skill. I'm talking about the toxicity of the community.

Ever see a Kirby player try to tell you how their character is supposedly terrible? They act like ****ing ***** about it, and from my experience in the Kirby Smashcords, they will actively put you down for even daring to say Kirby is anything better than awful. I'll admit that Kirby isn't a great character in Smash 4, but he's at the very least, okay. This whole pessimistic outlook the Kirby community has affected his meta severely, because not only are some Kirby players not trying anything to improve, but they're convinced that Kirby is so bad, it's not even worth trying anything out. I could go on and on about how I wish I could snap each of those players' necks, but that would be a bit much.

I've been thinking of bringing Pit back into the spotlight. I've been playing a lot of Kid Icarus Uprising (great game, awkward control scheme aside), and Pit has always been a character that I did decently with before. I'm not sure how the Pit community is, but I'm sure it's a lot more inviting than the Kirby playerbase ever will be. Have any of you wanted to quit a character because the community was so toxic, you didn't want to be associated with people like that? That's how I feel right now, and let me tell you, it's not a good feeling.

I leave you with this: What should I do?

My favorite character in Smash 4 is Bowser Jr., who is considered underwhelming by the community, even some Jr. mains think that. Don't let what others say impact your choice of main. =)

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

So after going to another tournament I've finally had the realization I needed. Don't practice against computers. Go into training mode or play online. Also don't try to decide characters in battle until tournament. Tournament is where you will decide everything.

So with that I've got are the choices for my secondary right now. I wanna know the good they can bring. Any info?

 

[Lauqe]

Yoshi has an allure of obscurity to him but a rather **** recovery. While Cloud is good, strong counterplay to him is to be expected. Link is likely not a good idea since you already main a swordsman; however, the fact that he has items and projectiles means that he can cover a lot of MU. But in that case, Yoshi would be better as most people are still not used to fighting him yet, and his projectiles are less likely to bite you in the ass. Sheik can struggle for the kill if you don't actually main the character, and counterplay is also rather strong as well. I'm not as well-versed in Diddy or Sonic, so I'm sure someone else can help you there.

 

[DJBor]

You said it yourself- tournament will decide everything. You should stick with Sonic, it did seem you were working well with him alongside Roy.

Now here's a new problem I have: My Mii Brawler is really good. Like, on par with Villager. Is it worth dropping Shulk for 2332 Mii Brawler, since more tournaments have been allowing Guest XXXX? (which btw is a really good idea, since they're neither op or underpowered that way)

 

[Lauqe]

The best Mii Brawler is 2122

 

[DJBor]

Piston Punch is better as Mii size gets bigger so I prefer it.
And I know Onslaught is best, but I really like having Headache Maker as a movement mixup.
Shot Put is good too, high damage with no need to charge.

Either way, if Guest XXXX becomes a thing I'll probably drop Shulk for Mii Brawler. If not, I'll stick with Shulk.
(tfw you realize all of this confusion is over a secondary character)

 

[DeltaForce]

Well I know that Mii Brawler is banned in a lot of places what size do you do? Anyways Mii brawler is disgusting on certain settings best kit is onslaught shot put helicopter kick and feint jump. Just watch the video
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wNeSSgA4bv8

My reccomendation DJBor would be to not play Mii fighter at all not because he is good/bad but I personaly would not relie on a character that is banned in a lot of places and where he isn't banned the regulations make him bad. Bottom line is I would not rely on a secondary that is inconsistent in areas and legality. However the choice is up to you if you feel like he works and you don't care about what I said go for it.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Update on me for those who care.
Still maining . Secondary is now between . Playing other competitive players (especially pr players) and just playing them at tournament is the best way to decide your characters. The deciding process is still incomplete for me however but when I finally get my secondary I will let you all know.
Oh and I cut down to for fun character since I'm playing to win.

Tournament is the best way to find your characters.

 

[KniteBlargh]

Nice_FZPSC.42 Glad you feel you're making progress and getting closer to finding your calling. However, for the sake of those who have yet to find their main and/or secondary, I just want to point out that there really is no single ultimate way of finding characters that works for everyone (otherwise this thread would have ended ages ago). This just simply means you've discovered one of the many ways to find characters, and this happens to be the best route for you. Keep up the good work; looking forward to seeing how it all turns out.

 

[(>´u´)>]

I use kirby the most but am trying to find a second. Any ideas?

I like brawlers with good recovery and speed

Sorry i couldn't give more detail.

 

[DJBor]

You could try , and play him like a faster Kirby that's wielding a tiny sword and doesn't do as much grappling. Could work really well.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I use kirby the most but am trying to find a second. Any ideas?

I like brawlers with good recovery and speed

Sorry i couldn't give more detail.

. Enough said. Jk who do you struggle against? Mus are the biggest thing to get a secondary to cover.

 

[AJb1205]

What are good 2v2 characters? I already have 1v1 mains but I want to get into 2v2 with my friend.
What I like in characters:
-Not slow, heavy hitters (Ike, bowser, charizard)
-Good recovery (Basically not a trash one)
-Fast moves and smashes
-Not too much movement speed (Not good at fast characters)
-Nice amount of kill options (Like ness with his pk flash, f smash,pk thunder 2, back throw, up air)
-Useful Kill throw? Maybe.
-Not a difficult character to learn

 

[(>´u´)>]

. Enough said. Jk who do you struggle against? Mus are the biggest thing to get a secondary to cover.

I have trouble against cloud and bayonetta
Mostly anyone who has a sword or high speed