The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[phi1ny3]

BAS is overall faster in firing speed (in terms of cooldown) than PK fire, so you'll want to mix it up a bit.
Against gimping, it is imperative that both players keep their second jump at all costs. Any waste of it is pretty much loss of stock offstage.

phi1ny3- http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3293034

NO U

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3293819

edit: btw, <3 Cyborg 009

 

[Vionce]

The main thing is he can't kill much. Our PSI magnet nullifies his aura sphere basically, since you usually use it from far away and it's slow.

Against characters with an absorber or reflector AS still works great against tech chases. AS can still aid recovery since Lucas can't attack and absorb at the same time.

What do you mean Lucario can't kill? This isn't brawl+, Lucario can kill still kill with uair, bair, dair, nair, unexpected fthrows, force palm, umash, dsmash, fsmash, and unexpected AS. It can be a little difficult to setup for those attacks, but it's not like Lucario lacks kill moves.

Pros

We can gimp him

lol, better to say that lucario's 3rd jump doesn't have a hitbox since it's possible to gimp the entire cast.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lucas' PSI Magnet has a hitbox when he releases it... but you're pretty much right because we'd have to be right next to you

 

[ZMan]

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3294782

 

[orange/xd]

Why, what an on topic discussion!

 

[rPSIvysaur]

If you could please take that conversations to PM's that would be nice, or I'll have to report your post sadly...

 

[phi1ny3]

Onto the real MU discussion...
If you can get lucario to recover from below, bair his recovery during the startup lag.
I think we can keep pretty safe, if you get lucario to misspace aerials, I would think utilt/nair ooS (if that's fast enough) would be pretty good for punishing.

 

[ZMan]

killjoy.

lucario perfers the air, his recovery doesn't have a hitbox so you can safely edgehog him/spike him, and predict TEH AURA SPHERE and absorb.

and don't fall for mindgames where stands there and charges a smash, he wants you to hit him so he can get stronger. unless he's at the right % for the dair -> dtilt trap.

but yeah **** lucarihoe

 

[rPSIvysaur]

lucarihoe

lol, that's what I call him

 

[phi1ny3]

Wai, I thought it was Rollcario?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I have a feeling Tether edge hog would actually work against him... I'd feel that PKT would while your onstage to make him lose his jumps would be smarter than to go offstage vs. Lucario... and if he tries to shoot you with blue balls, he risks us getting out of PKT earlier and being edgehogged sooner and we'd get percent decreasing his killing power

 

[Rachmaninav89]

yea that would work pretty good, but i would be careful if youre recovering with tether and hes standing nead the leadge. I forget but i think his dair repels the tether . Unless im wrong, i havent played lucario in awhile haha

 

[ZMan]

if you are just hanging out on the ledge w/tether, his dair will hit you.

idk zap jump seems like the best option here. maybe even pkt but i think his dair eats our pkt :/

**** lucarihomo.

 

[Rachmaninav89]

It seems everything hits lucas against lucarihomo :/. It's like a joke almost, we have a psimagnet to recover health only so he can harass you more with outrageous combos haha.

 

[~Nasty~]

if you are just hanging out on the ledge w/tether, his dair will hit you.

idk zap jump seems like the best option here. maybe even pkt but i think his dair eats our pkt :/

**** lucarihomo.

Eh, Pkt2 for recovery can become very dangerous if the lucario is standing anywhere near the ledge to almost the middle of FD b/c he can either quick grab the ledge to gimp us or use his UpB from the middle of the stage to grab the ledge. It's FAST so be aware of that. Zap jump > Magnet pull is your best option but don't get predictable w/ it either or he can punish you pretty hard.

 

[rED023b]

I have something for your ICs matchup if you want it.

 

[ZMan]

we're not on ics yet. **** 09er

i really have nothing else to say :/ just focus on the match, be mindful of where you recover at, and don't snooze off in against borecario (granted this applies for every god**** match you play, but moreso against lucarihoe)

 

[phi1ny3]

I don't know good lucas stages, so I'll let you guys tell, and I'll see what lucario will try to CP.

 

[ZMan]

lucas likes brinstar, no-fair, and japes.

doesn't lucarihoe like frigate?

 

[Tokaio]

Lucario does really well on Brinstar and Japes. Frigate does favour air characters, so my guess is that Lucario is good on that stage.

 

[phi1ny3]

Frigate is also wallclingable on both sides of the stage regardless of transformation (although some of them require the opponent to be hogging the ledge to cancel the ledgesnap).
Brinstar might actually be a pretty good stage for Lucas in this case. Lucario does okay there, but I think I'd shy away from it myself.

 

[Galeon]

If we're gonna discuss MU stuff, it'd be cool if someone could mention the solid punish stuff we get. Like for all the ones u guys discussed already, I don't think I saw anyone say something like "If you block Character X's ftilt, you get a free fsmash".

Can u punish Lucario's dair with anything better than jab/tilts if you block it? Can you shieldgrab his fsmash if you run in deep enough? soz, no lucarios down here lol

 

[~Nasty~]

lucas likes brinstar, no-fair, and japes.

doesn't lucarihoe like frigate?

i see what you did there

And i wouldn't want to CP brinstar against lucario bc he can still somwhat ledge cling by the part that breaks apart can't he? we also wouldn't want his Usmash to lag anymore than what it does bc of the stage environment.

Idk if we're moving onto stage strikes/bans yet but i would strike yoshi's bc he can wall cling making his recovery a lot easier. Same w/ FD.

Ban ~ I'd say Yoshi's. wall cling is too good and it's also hard to recover on this stage if you are too close to the wall. (unless you're Galeon)

CP ~ uhh... BF? maybe halberd (low ceilings will help kill him earlier) OR if you're feeling risky, Rainbow Cruise

If we're gonna discuss MU stuff, it'd be cool if someone could mention the solid punish stuff we get. Like for all the ones u guys discussed already, I don't think I saw anyone say something like "If you block Character X's ftilt, you get a free fsmash".

Can u punish Lucario's dair with anything better than jab/tilts if you block it? Can you shieldgrab his fsmash if you run in deep enough? soz, no lucarios down here lol

oh hey galeon, i like this idea. If lucario is dair happy you can probably get off an Usmash, it's not too hard and if he sees you even going for it he'll be more cautious about approaching you from above.

I don't see why you can't shield grab the fsmash if you are close enough (i'm pretty sure i've done it) but if you perfect shield it and are close, dsmash would probably be better and then follow up w/ a pkt 1 if he's off stage.

 

[Tokaio]

I would still say to CP Brinstar. Although Lucario does somewhat well on this stage, it's much better for us, and his wall cling is limited to when it's only separated, and small blastzones make it much easier for killing, so he doesn't live until 150. Just my opinion.

 

[phi1ny3]

Speaking of fsmash, a good lucario will try to tip fsmash as much as possible (yes it has a tipper), and use things like strutter step to help space it.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

If we're gonna discuss MU stuff, it'd be cool if someone could mention the solid punish stuff we get. Like for all the ones u guys discussed already, I don't think I saw anyone say something like "If you block Character X's ftilt, you get a free fsmash".

Can u punish Lucario's dair with anything better than jab/tilts if you block it? Can you shieldgrab his fsmash if you run in deep enough? soz, no lucarios down here lol

Sort of like the entire post I made for G&W except stating explicitly how to punish? Because that is one thing I really would like to do, I just need some help from others

 

[rED023b]

we're not on ics yet. **** 09er

i really have nothing else to say :/ just focus on the match, be mindful of where you recover at, and don't snooze off in against borecario (granted this applies for every god**** match you play, but moreso against lucarihoe)

Thank you for making me feel so welcome.

Anyways, you guys are free to use the picture .

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah, to add onto ZMan's advice, don't be stupid and underestimate lucario (not that the highest level Lucas would do that). Example?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dc9MBDmttg
Don't do it

 

[Rachmaninav89]

Point proven dude. christ that was insane to watch haha

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So lets do Galeons punish idea: List good ways to fill these in

F-smash -
D-smash -
U-smash -
F-tilt -
D-tilt -
U-tilt -
Dash Attack -
Jab -
Aerials -

 

[Uffe]

Oh yeah, to add onto ZMan's advice, don't be stupid and underestimate lucario (not that the highest level Lucas would do that). Example?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dc9MBDmttg
Don't do it

Looks like that Falco was getting too relaxed or something. XD That was one of the best comebacks I have ever seen.

 

[phi1ny3]

dsmash: all sorts of things, as a lucario who tries this and gets shielded made a mistake by doing dsmash in the first place.
Usmash: Lots of things after the initial frame, there's a weird time in the attack where it cancels out stuff like MK's glide attack.
ftilt: if properly spaced, nothing, it is very safe on block, and has two hits
dtilt: pretty safe too.
utilt: on block, lots of things, this thing is unsafe on block lol
dash attack: sooooooooo laggy if blocked lol, do whatever is suitable
Jab: I'd assume an aerial out of shield would be good.
aerials: fair is kinda safe on shield in this MU, although you can probably try utilt, dair is probably not going to be punish with usmash, two hits + good range + the speed it is probably better to try aerial oos, utilt if it's in range, or grab if that's fast enough, although you can probably mindgame him if he doesn't know the MU (not relevant to MU discussion, but good to keep in mind with a MU).
Bair is pretty punishable if he tries the fair -> bair, nair if spaced will be tough, uair can probably be outranged by dair, but I'm not sure of Lucas dair's speed.
fsmash if spaced properly is going to be a bugger to punish even for lucas, but chances are that lucario will mess up and not do it properly. If so, I think grab or dsmash if it is fast enough might be able to punish it.
Most of these if improperly spaced especially dtilt can be punished readily, but remember that lucario plays best at a specific zone, so chances are he'll play at that zone as much as he can.

 

[Galeon]

i went to the lucario boards and looked up the frame data. Dunno if i did it right but here's what i came up with. Im guessing when they say 'hitbox out', thats the last frame when a hitbox is.. well, out. Assuming all these are blocked and not ps'ed, so im cutting 6 frames off the lag time of the move for shield drop. Biggest punish is listed. If you powershield, you can adjust accordingly by changing
1) Jabs/tilts > Dairs
2) Dairs > Fsmash/Dsmash
3) Fsmash > Dsmash
4) Dsmash > Usmash
5) Usmash > you're a greedy *****, yknow that?

The list:

F-smash - If you run block an fsmash near the ending, you can't do anything to it if the Lucario's on his game. If you block the initial hit, you get tilts.

D-smash - If u block the dsmash normally, u can dsmash him back. If you run block it near the end of the active hitbox, best you get is fsmash.

U-smash - If u block it up close normally, its a free usmash. If u block it on a platform, I think u can actually drop through and get a free uncharged pk freeze. They probably did this move by mistake.

F-tilt - Jab/utilt if poorly spaced.

D-tilt - Jab/utilt if poorly spaced.

U-tilt - Tilts, dair if done with perfect timing/close enough

Dash Attack - Blocking a spaced dash attack, they still get dair'ed with good timing. Blocking a deep dash attack, you get a dsmash if u time it perfectly. You should probably stick with fsmash for the middle ground but remember that there is a chance they could block. Dair is the safest, guaranteed option.

Jab - Cant **** with the first 2 jabs. If he follows through with the third, destroy his world. Fsmash is free, dsmash has to be frame perfect.

Aerials - No landing info for aerials. No Lucarios down here really so my only experience is from friendlies. With that disclaimer, I'd say that if they aren't landing with a nair or bair, **** with it.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario usmash is horrible in hitbox, the weird frames that I can't see via PSA are its saving grace.
That sounds about right, actually, although dair can probably be avoided in terms of punishment if he double jumps, for some odd reason, that allows a nair to happen after it and can only be outspaced by gay stuff like snake utilt/D3 utilt, but that seems like a legit list since I'm no Lucas expert lol.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So, lets go to stage discussion now

 

[Galeon]

He can't kill up, take him to Halberd.

 

[phi1ny3]

Normally I would say uair is the only killer lucario needs for vertical kills (at max aura, it can rival snake's utilt in killability and speed, since it's more mobile and it kills AD), but Lucas outranges uair and at a high percent I wouldn't risk getting locked.
Halberd is pretty icky for us, I never really liked that stage.
Don't take him to Japes, Frigate, or YI (unless that's a really good Lucas stage)
Oh yeah, I'm really sorry guys about practically discussing the MU twice, but we are wrapping up our last three MUs on our boards, and we'd like your input:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221578
And I don't want to see Zman flamin' there >:^O

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So what about stage strikes?

Strike: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise for platforms? or Yoshi's Island since it's a good Lucario stage

 

[ZMan]

i always strike yoshi, regardles of mu.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

so Battlefield or Lylat, which one?