I'll try to make the tourney eet
. No promises though, kthxbai.
Cyphus said:
and not to beat a dead horse..but the fact marth has "difficulty" comboing at higher percents looks like it was taken right out of ken's mouth. (actually, i'm 100% positive he said that). In reality...who actuall Does combo well at high percents? Falco w/ his laser and spike, and Fox w/ his reflector....and..thats prolly about it.(and they're top tier in my book anyway)
Okay, maybe I was a bit unclear, or misworded a few things.
Sure, a lot of characters can't combo at high percentages. What makes a difference is that Marth can't combo into a KO at high percentages. And that is a big deal. He can't just swat at the opponent. The difference between Marth and other characters at high percentage is that most other characters have short combo's that are probably more of set-ups than anything else. You cannot deny this idea.
For example:
At high percentage...All characters with good high-percentage throws that actually set-up for a possible kill or have throws that are actually powerful enough to kill the opponent are at an advantage. Marth's throws don't do **** against people at high percentage. They throw the opponent far away to where they can either jump out, or DI and tech too far away.
At high percentage...Characters with projectiles have setups to get entries for KO'ing. Sheik = needles. Falco = SHL. Doc = Pills. IC's = iceblock. Samus's projectiles are good no matter what...but...Marth has no projectile, which is bad.
At high percentage...Characters with an actual jab are at benefit. A jab on a high percentage opponent pops them up perfectly for KO's in many instances. Fox jab -> usmash grab or nair. Samus jab -> fsmash. Sheik jab -> dsmash, grab, tilt, or fair. Falco jab -> nair, fsmash, or grab. Mario Bros. jab -> aerial, smash, or grab. Falcon jab -> grab. Marth has no jab, so he loses these great set-ups. Jabs are the most effective moves in the game because of the low startup and lag. They are fast enough to stop some shield grabbing, and don't leave you too open if you miss. Quick jabs allow you to put high pressure on a close opponent while not leaving yourself very open. And, jabs with many characters set up perfectly for a lot of KO's at high percentage, so they are safe for the jabber, and have deadly potential.
Cyphus said:
Marth has possibly the easiest time comboing overall.
How so? Most of Marth's combos and low percentage KO setups are the result of terrible DI on the part of the opponent. Marth's fthrow to fsmash happens because people insist on DI'ing into Marth's throws, when they should DI away. Some people even have the bad habit when thrown offstage by Marth to DI towards Marth, then double jump into fsmash p.O; If you watch most of Marth's wins with his grab game, it is more about mindgames and mistakes of the opponent than the actual move itself. A lot of Marth's grab game is waiting for wiffed DI and tech-chasing. Though uthrow does chain on space animals, many space animals, including myself, make the mistake of not DI'ing up at around20-30%, which can actually allow you to escape in some situations. Zanguzen made an excellent post in the foxnfalco forums about DI up vs. Marth's uthrow and shining Marth after being uthrown.
Marth's fair combos are also not that realiable all the time. I find that if people DI into Marth's fair combos or don't DI them at all (O.O), Marth has a much easier time linking fair into killers like dair, fsmash, and nair. If the opponent DI's away, it makes it much more difficult for the Marth to connect with the hits.
How can Marth have the easiest time combo'ing overall? Sheik has a great grab game at all opponent percentages. Her tilt game is just stupidly good, and jabs setup beautifully for grabs at low-med percentages, and setup nicely for fair at high percentages. Fox has a shine with set-knockback that is notoriously beastly, linking into waveshine combos on many characters. Iceclimbers can combo like little mofo's themselves with their godly grab-game.
Marth really doesn't have the best combo game in my opinion.
Cyphus said:
Marth probably has the easiest time KOing from combos.
I have to disagree. He can usually only KO from combo's at medium-low to medium-high percentages. However, just look at Sheik. She combo into KO at medium-low, medium-high, and high-high percentages. Her grab game, jabs, and dtilt are just great setups at high percentages. Fox can also **** at any percentage with shinespike. Shinespike kills at low percentage and medium percentage. Uthrow uair, and jab usmash are great kills at high percentage. Iceclimbers can kill anyone at high percentage from smashing after dthrow with desynch. Iceclimbers can sure rack up the damage fast to get there too.
Cyphus said:
Even IF he can't combo or KO well at high percents....it doesn't make a big diffy. Whats better to have...
combo to KO options at early damage....or combo to KO options at late damage?
Its a no brainer. Killing at low damage is infinitely better than having to damage your oponent twice as much before KOing.
Your argument has one flaw. From my veiw you are asking the question: "Whats better to have... combo to KO options at early damage with VERY LITTLE options at high damage...or combo to KO options at late damage." If someone has low KO options and the opponent's percentage grows out of that range, then that someone will have very little options to rely on at high damage, which is well...unrealiable and therefore not good. On the other hand, if someone has high percentage KO options, then they have reassurance that if they combo the opponent during low percentage (which most characters can do more easily than comboing at high damage) to build up to high percentage, that they will have more options with which to KO the opponent. The second choice sounds more reliable and solid to me.
Cyphus said:
And even AT high damage, his F.Tilt and UpTilt suffice for a lot better options than what most characters have. Maybe not better than say..Ganon, but still alot better than most characters.
Ftilt and Uptilt are good, but it will never be as good as a throw, jab, or projectile setup into KO that other characters have. Ftilt and Uptilt usually only give KO's if they connect close to or on the tip of Marth's sword. Swatting with tilts can work, but isn't a great approach in my opinion.
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Cyphus, I know that you dislike Ken, Ken's arguments in support of Marth, and playing against Marth since you don't get to play against him often, and I understand. Marth is a pain in the a
ss to play against sometimes, because it just seems that his range seems endless. I know that all of my ideas are just opinions that are bound to be incorrect, but I honestly don't think that Marth is as good as most people think, broken, cheap, or even gay, lol. He's pretty girly though. xD
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Edit: Wow, this is the longest post I've ever posted on SWF. Over a thousand words, and all in one sitting WOAMGWTF?...I need to get a life. Now's the part where Taylor says, "Way to write a book on SWF n00b." I still love you though,
.
