The Louisiana Thread: Flarefox Forever - We are alive.

[entelegantLozer]

Awe-some. (...)

 

[Sars_Pirate]

Ryan, tony's coming back this weekend (saturday or something), and he wants to go to BR for the tourneys too.

 

[eet]

Im gonna sandbag at the first tourny and use only Marth so my Marth can get tourny experience. No peach for eric (prolly no 1st place either but w/e) ... weee.

 

[Mankosuki]

Trying to form a dual Marth team?

 

[entelegantLozer]

Hah I may just random select my character at these tournaments. Would definately be fun.

Yea, so count in 3 people (at least) from New Orleans to be coming to these often. Maybe 4, if Mr. Noddle shows interest.

 

[TehPh1r3PwnzJ00]

who knows who will actually come though


sooo everyone tell me what you think:

Analysis of wave dashing vs. rolling:
First let's look at what each move is. Wave dashing is the act of air dodging into the ground at an angle so the character slides along the ground without running or walking. This creates an effect similar to the character being on a platform and moving around the stage, while being able to do all the attacks they could preform while standing still. Wave dashes can be adjusted in length depending on if you interupt them with an attack, side step, sheild, or another wavedash. The length can also be changed by what angle the control stick is tilted at. (i.e. if the controller is at 220 degrees, the character will slide slightly farther than a tilt at 230 degrees.) Wave dashing is a glitch abused by most professional players and is accepted as a part of ssbm. Rolling on the other hand, was originally intended to be part of the game as movement or to dodge. Rolling creates a limited time where a character is invincible, followed by a short moment where the character is completely open to attack or grab. Though the lengths of rolls vary from character to character, a certain character's roll is always the same length. Some of those aposed to wave dashing or just can't break the habit of rolling say it is ok to roll as long as you roll away and not try to roll into an attack. No matter how long a roll is, skilled players can exploit rolls by "roll punishing." Using l-cancels and wave dashing a character with a good wavedash and grab can keep up with any roll you can do, then attack or grab in the short period that the character is completely vulnerable. Because rolling yeilds you invincible for a period it must have a weakness to be built into the game otherwise it would be a broken move. This is why rolling is for noobs. Thats right, noobs. If anyone is attempting to be a 'skilled' player the first step is cutting out rolling. Though I personally think wavedashing is a much better choice, rolling can also be exchanged with regular dashes and dash dancing. The disadvantages to dashing are what i call "turn-around lag", it's slower in most cases, and the only ground attack you can do out of a dash is dash attack, otherwise you have to crouch cancel it before u can attack. Wavedashes provide quicker movement and a more broad range of movement without being in a dash dance to avoid turn-around lag (lag that a character experiances to turn around after running too far in one direction). You can also do any ground move out of a wavedash, or wavegrab. I would estimate atleast 95% of professional players impliment wavedashing into their game in some way. It's just better.

 

[Sars_Pirate]

:/

Rolling's not to be taken completely out of the game . . . The invincibility frames do help; and some situtations, it's easier (because it's more reflexive) to roll than anything else.

I'll have to think about this . . .

 

[Mankosuki]

the only situations I can imagine in which rolling is good:

- Quickly get onto the very edge of the level, facing backwards, without risk of falling off. (certain edge gauding tactics)

- using Yoshi since he's not nearly as vulnerable after rolling if you continue to hold the shield and since you can't jump out of his, WD from it won't work.

 

[TehPh1r3PwnzJ00]

i donno about yoshi, but rolling against the edge is like asking to be tippered. u cant go anywhere so its super easy to predict where/when the roll will end and then punish

 

[Mankosuki]

hence why I said "(certain edge gauding tactics)". Of course you wouldn't do it if they are still on the level, that's suicide.


edit: guarding*

 

[entelegantLozer]

I think rolls are necessary when you're shielding and someone is grinding it down, so you can't shield grab, and can't JC. Just roll away. But I agree, if everyone wavedashed when they rolled, everyone would be a lot more techincal, a lot more fluid, and a lot more prepared to attack.

 

[eet]

I think rolling is justified when Marth Fsmashes and to punish his delay I roll behind him and dsmash. Of course Im peach and she has a pretty sexy roll.

 

[TehPh1r3PwnzJ00]

I think rolling is justified when Marth Fsmashes and to punish his delay I roll behind him and dsmash. Of course Im peach and she has a pretty sexy roll.

that is called punishing, and if a roll works to do it then ok but it only works because the marth missed the fsmash.

and im sure theres a few of cases where u would be safe rolling away, but it will never hurt to use wd instead XD

 

[eet]

okay well you miss too many fsmashes OH!..

 

[Cyphus]

man..i liked skipped school today, and now i'm SO BORED. i think i'm gonna go eat some chinese.

 

[Sars_Pirate]

It sounds more like you're trying to get rid of rolling completely by replacing it with wavedashing, and that's not right. Wavedashing is its own entity with its own applicances. Wavedashing wasn't meant to replace the roll, instead it's used more to aid a character's mobhility in general. Wavedashing takes many forms besides evasion. Characters can use wavedashing to increase their agility, pressure opponents, evade attacks, setting up for attacks, and "mindgames."

Rolls on the other hand can be used to space yourself really far away from characters with the help of invincibility frames. Most instances, it's true someone can run away, wavedash back, or jump out of the way from an attack; but that doesn't discredit the roll and make it obsolete. Most pro players don't discredit the roll either because there are times when there's no choice but to roll. Some characters even have exceptionally good rolls which are used because they're better than everything else. Compare Shiek's Back roll to her run. It's easier to move forward after rolling backwards than pivoting into a forward wavedash. The roll's not laggy like Samus's, but and it covers a wide enough gap to escape pretty much every attack.

So yeah, in my opinion, the roll stays where it is. Wavedashing's an important technique and players get better when they've fully incorporated it into their game, but it shouldn't replace rolls. That's like wanting Shufflds to replace running because that's more mobile. Thing is, it's just not practical. :/ Then again, I am a n00b so I might be completely wrong.

 

[TehPh1r3PwnzJ00]

It sounds more like you're trying to get rid of rolling completely by replacing it with wavedashing, and that's not right. Wavedashing is its own entity with its own applicances. Wavedashing wasn't meant to replace the roll, instead it's used more to aid a character's mobhility in general. Wavedashing takes many forms besides evasion. Characters can use wavedashing to increase their agility, pressure opponents, evade attacks, setting up for attacks, and "mindgames."

Rolls on the other hand can be used to space yourself really far away from characters with the help of invincibility frames. Most instances, it's true someone can run away, wavedash back, or jump out of the way from an attack; but that doesn't discredit the roll and make it obsolete. Most pro players don't discredit the roll either because there are times when there's no choice but to roll. Some characters even have exceptionally good rolls which are used because they're better than everything else. Compare Shiek's Back roll to her run. It's easier to move forward after rolling backwards than pivoting into a forward wavedash. The roll's not laggy like Samus's, but and it covers a wide enough gap to escape pretty much every attack.

So yeah, in my opinion, the roll stays where it is. Wavedashing's an important technique and players get better when they've fully incorporated it into their game, but it shouldn't replace rolls. That's like wanting Shufflds to replace running because that's more mobile. Thing is, it's just not practical. :/ Then again, I am a n00b so I might be completely wrong.

wavedashing is it's own entity and in some cases dash might be a better choice to replace a roll, but the fact that rolling gives the opponent a free chance to hit u means that you should cut it out of your game in one way or another, not always wavedashing. sheik is the ultimate gay character and is immune to all arguments regaurding techniques used by all characters.

 

[Mankosuki]

Sheik is the ultimate gay character and is immune to all arguments regaurding techniques used by all characters.

...comming from the guy who mains Marth.

 

[Cyphus]

rolling is still a good move. If its bad cuz it leaves you open, then by all means any actual attack is bad. If you see samus starting to fire a Charge Shot at near point blank range....your best option isn't to WD, Jump, or sidestep. Its to roll towards her and punish.

 

[Mankosuki]

Don't tell me Lee actually shoots a blast a point blank range without stunning you first...

 

[entelegantLozer]

Lee actually shoots a blast a point blank range without stunning you first...

 

[TehPh1r3PwnzJ00]

i'll never accept rolling as being any good
and to me, marth combos many characters easily but he is also made to be easily combo'd by most characters so it balances out

 

[entelegantLozer]

Yea Marf is definately Mid Tier.

->

 

[eet]

lolz.




.....

 

[TehPh1r3PwnzJ00]

watch it >.>
i'm not ken, and i think marth deserves his spot in top tier but hes not so 'cheap' like everyone says. he has his weaknesses too.

 

[Mankosuki]

like what, no projectile?

(Not trying to sound like an @$$... I really want to know. He seems too good.)

 

[entelegantLozer]

The same blistering weaknesses that Sheik has. (Sheik has projectiles)

 

[Flarefox]

like what, no projectile?

(Not trying to sound like an @$$... I really want to know. He seems too good.)

Marth has extreme difficulty KO'ing most characters at very high percentages. It sounds ironic, but it's true. All of Marth's combo's are low-mid percentage combos. Fair combos, fair to fsmash, nair, fthrow, uthrow, uair and utilt, which are his main comboing moves, do not combo at high percentages. The only thing that combos semi-decently at high percentages is his sword-dance gay thing, which isn't even that effective. Most of Marth's combos send the opponent too far away at high percentages, but not actually far enough kill the opponent. So, at high percentages, Marth will usually just shuffle a lot of nairs to knock the opponent far enough offstage for some good edgeguarding(random fsmash is too punishable). Marths grabs suck(like most of his other comboing moves) past +-100% on most characters, too.

Plus, Marth has a fairly easy recovery to edgeguard. Most characters can edgeguard him by edgehogging, forcing him onstage, rolling up, and knocking him offstage again. Marth's recovery is often ***** by a simple bair offstage, or a needle from Sheik. Marth is combo'd easily by Fox, Sheik, Captain Falcon, Falco, Doc, and even IceClimbers IMO. He isn't exactly the heaviest character either, and is floaty, so he dies over the top relatively easily.

Yeah...that's my opinion. Marth isn't cheap, he just punishes near the edge and side of the stage really easily with good mindgames.

 

[Flarefox]

The same blistering weaknesses that Sheik has. (Sheik has projectiles)

Sheik has great projectiles. Needle cancelling is too good. Great edgeguarding, combo-setup potential with needle cancelling, cancels out a fully charged Samus shot.... Plus, needles aggravate the shit out of Peaches trying to pull turnips, too. xD

EDIT: I agree with you Taylor. Rolling is ridiculously punishable. A roller can be hit at the beginning of the roll, or at the very end. A forward smash towards the area where the roll will end will result in the roller being hit, because of the vulnerable frames before they go back into shield. Plus, if you don't get a hit at the vulnerable last frames of the roll, you can always follow them afterwards...chances are, they will shield, giving you a shield-grab. K'MEEZY.

EDIT x2: Rolling is very situational, though. If a Falco is pillaring someone's shield, rolling is probably the best option. Rolling is only a good option when choosing between BAD or WORSE, lol.

 

[eet]

ffox is too cool. fox ditto penny match at mall tourny?

edit: bring pie. <3

 

[Mankosuki]

But you don't need to combo at high percentages. Wouldn't a simple tilt attack suffice at knocking them off stage for an edgeguard?

I don't see how it's easy to edgeguard Marth. He can side-b to protect him from most arials or fastfall to avoid a projectile and continue to side-b.

Most characters can edgeguard him by edgehogging, forcing him onstage, rolling up, and knocking him offstage again

Yeah, or anyone else for that matter. That's not a weakness to Marth, just a general strategy. That's about the only option either since it's hard to use an attack that will hit the ledge since his sword will ussually hit you from under the level.

and I think entelegantLozer wasn't saying the needles suck but that Sheik shares the same flaws as Marth... being that the have none and are broken characters.

 

[Flarefox]

ffox is too cool. fox ditto penny match at mall tourny?

edit: bring pie. <3

I'll have to check if I can go to the mall-tournies. I'm pretty busy this semester.

 

[eet]

what you say? you have to come to atleast a few I mean, theyre on saturdays ne?

 

[Flarefox]

But you don't need to combo at high percentages. Wouldn't a simple tilt attack suffice at knocking them off stage for an edgeguard?

Yes it would, but so would it for all other characters. Marth is a good edgeguarder, that is a given. However, all that I am saying is that when his combo's that lead into KO's via fsmash and dair are gone (which happens at high percentage), his game is severly weakened. He has less options to rely on for punishing the opponent and gaining advantage by setups.

I don't see how it's easy to edgeguard Marth. He can side-b to protect him from most arials or fastfall to avoid a projectile and continue to side-b.

Using the edge to get invincibility frames is unbeatable. Sheik, fox, falco, doc, mario, luigi, marth, jiggs, samus, popo, dk, and some others all have great edgeguards by grabbing the edge for invincibility, then using it to attack the recoverer without being hit. Many characters have aerials that simply own a side-b. Samus' sexkick is the prime example.

Yeah, or anyone else for that matter. That's not a weakness to Marth, just a general strategy. That's about the only option either since it's hard to use an attack that will hit the ledge since his sword will ussually hit you from under the level.

Yes, but Marth's upb has serious lag when he lands onstage. Try applying the same logic to a fox or falco that is landing onstage from up-b. Hardly any lag, they can shine you almost instantly once they land. Shiek also has the mindgame of appearing above the edge, giving time for the edge to clear. Sheik can also decide where to land by transporting instage, or downward to the side. Marth has little options when recovering against an edgehogger. If he is too far away, and cannot afford to doublejump into fair, etc., to clear the edge, his only option is to upb early, hoping to surprise the edgehogger. That rarely works, though. Another thing to mention is that Marth's up-b hitting you at the edge is not all that punishing. At low-med percentages, his up-b can be crouch-cancelled at the edge, then you can punish with a simple downsmash. This technique works well with fox and falco.

and I think entelegantLozer wasn't saying the needles suck but that Sheik shares the same flaws as Marth... being that the have none and are broken characters.

lol, i see. xD Stupid Asian can't understand English.

 

[Mankosuki]

That clears things up more, thanks for the info. I'll have to practise some of that since Marth's probably who I have the most trouble against. :-/

Any advice against Sheik with Samus or Purin? I doubt any of my secondary characters are good enough to counter her.

 

[Flarefox]

That clears things up more, thanks for the info. I'll have to practise some of that since Marth's probably who I have the most trouble against. :-/

Any advice against Sheik with Samus or Purin? I doubt any of my secondary characters are good enough to counter her.

You made some really good points, though, about Marth. I guess Marth isn't cheap, but he just has..."advantages." >_> <_<

Eww...Samus vs. Sheik...All that I know is that Samus has a difficult time versus Sheik. Needles can be a pain, because they can go through all of your projectiles (yeah, gay). Samus usually has a difficult time getting past Sheik's quick jab-combo-setups, because Samus isn't exactly one of the fastest characters D: Sheik's close-up pressure is really difficult to get by. Her fair and bair can own Samus's slow (and sort of predictable) bomb-drop-recovery.

Her needles own your bombs, too, when you are trying to recover from below the horizontal plane of the stage. The needles travel at about 45 degress downward, though, so it's a good idea to try to get under her line of fire as quickly as possible by getting close to the stage. After you get under the needles, you can recover upward and try to sweetspot the edge. Your up-b has godly priority and speed, so that always helps. You know how beastly Samus's sexykick is . Try recovering to the stage with it out once in a while. A bold and direct recover is a good thing to throw in now and then.
Also, to help relieve pressure from upclose against Sheik, it is not a bad idea to throw in a well-timed up-b. It has amazingly low startup and knocks them back far enough if sweetspotted, to allow you to regroup. You can up-b out of shield by jumpcancelling the shield with up-b, too. This is a quicker way to punish a shielded aerial, kind of like shield-grab, but sexier...almost as sexy as Eric. If you haven't seen vids of HugS and his awesome up-b-utilizing-Samus, you should.
Dropping bombs over the edge can screw a Sheik that is trying to recover pretty badly. Just run offstage and drop a bomb, then DI back in. You can also short hop out and drop the bomb.
Then again, I do play Samus, but I'm not a Samus main. You should try asking for help in the Samus forum.

and...as for Jiggz versus Sheik...uh...yeah.
I play as JiggyPoof sometimes, and almost all I know is that Wall-Of-Pain rocks, as does pound to rest at low percentages. I wouldn't know exactly what approach to take as Jiggs. I'm sure that uthrow to rest doesn't work on Sheik. Utilt can possibly combo at low percentage into rest. Sheik has a poor aerial game if not spaced properly because: (1)She has limited air mobility and (2) her dair is a bit slow.
If you can space close enough when she tries to shuffle with her extremely high shorthop, you will be underneath her, which is always a great position to be in versus Sheik. A simple usmash beats many of Sheik's aerials if you can get underneath her. Sheik gets juggled the crap out by a lot of characters, too, so that's something to think about.
One more thing that I can tell you is to try not to DI behind Sheik from her dthrow. Sheik can follow up with uair if you DI back. If you DI forward, she will fair you, in which case you could smash DI up and live longer.

 

[eet]

Instead of cheap then lets jus say Marth(Fsmash), Shiek(...its Shiek), Peach(DSmash), Fox(shine spike, infinites) and Falco(SHL, pillar) are "Inexpensive" characters.

 

[Panik]

SO um... when is the next tourney? Also this is post 100 and I better be able to get a **** Ganondorf Avatar now.

 

[Joe Mamma]

Wow...I haven't been on in a while. They've definitely made more room for tourneys at Gameware, but I think they still need to get rid of at least one more machine to have enough room, and to move Guitar Freaks somewhere else. I haven't practiced since the tourney in Lafayette . Guess it's long past time to get started on that again.

As for the whole WD vs. rolling thing, I'm going to try to stay pretty much out of that whole thing, since I tend to get a little riled up in arguements, so I'll pretty much just say this and let that be it for me: both techniques have their uses, and WD has more addaptability in that it can be applied to a lot more situations and has innumberable uses, but the roll is not completely useless, either. Serious, professional players who could pwn any of us at this game do not deny it's usefulness, and just because it always can be punished doesn't mean it always is punished. Plus, I hate to sound like a broken record, but I have to remind everybody of team Dead Pools' victory in the team tournament at the tournament we had in Lafayette, and they told me that they don't use wavedashing.

 

[Mankosuki]

Actually, from going through and encoding the videos from that tourney, I can say that they do indeed WD at least some what. They may not use it heavily, or rely on it as much as other players but it's not totally devoid either. It seems as though they haven't fully integrated it yet is all. It was mostly after a kill or just dash dancing, no wave smashes.

As for how they can be good without much WD... remember all three use a seperate top tier character.