The Legendary Heroes of Galar - Zacian and Zamazenta for Smash

[Cosmic77]

The thing about a few past characters is that we need to fill up who the remaining top 4 of the World Coronation series will be. We know for certain Leon, Raihan and Lance will be part of it. And of course Ash would have to be there as well leaving 4 spots. Some candidates i can think off the top of my head are: Cynthia, Steven, Alain, Diantha and maybe Alder.

As for the others there really isn't much need to have a lot go on in their return episodes, it can just be a situation of "Hey, long time no see. How have your been?" and it's more for catching up on things or just a silly little plot. Not saying it's guranteed that past companion will return, but the fact that a lot of fanservice is showing up in this series, namely Ash getting Dragonite, Gengar & Riolu, tells me it's possible now more than ever to bring them back.

Maybe not now, but perhaps next year or next season.

Honestly, I think I'd prefer more of a plot, better battles, and a more purposeful role for Team Rocket over old characters returning.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice seeing Ash with better Pokemon and old characters making a return, but I feel like there are so many existing characters and Pokemon in the current cast who they desperately need to flesh out more. Chloe is a prime example, as well as any Pokemon who isn't Pikachu, Riolu, or Raboot. They're also introducing the Galar content at a snail's pace, so we have PLENTY of characters, locations, and Pokemon who should be prioritized over those who have already been featured in the anime in previous series.

 

[LukeRNG]

Honestly, I think I'd prefer more of a plot, better battles, and a more purposeful role for Team Rocket over old characters returning.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice seeing Ash with better Pokemon and old characters making a return, but I feel like there are so many existing characters and Pokemon in the current cast who they desperately need to flesh out more. Chloe is a prime example, as well as any Pokemon who isn't Pikachu, Riolu, or Raboot. They're also introducing the Galar content at a snail's pace, so we have PLENTY of characters, locations, and Pokemon who should be prioritized over those who have already been featured in the anime in previous series.

I'd agree with you only if the current series wasn't a global series. I don't think a few episodes focused on past characters would take away anything we've yet to see from Galar; most past series had a few terrible filler episodes that added nothing to the region or characters (and some cases just plain boring), so a few episodes being taken over by past characters wouldn't be too much of an issue.

 

[Pokelego999]

So apparently Goh is gonna get a Pikachu if the preview was interpreted correctly. Though its stated he'll be going to a place with loads of em. So I was thinking Goh will go to Pikachu Valley in Alola.

 

[fogbadge]

So apparently Goh is gonna get a Pikachu if the preview was interpreted correctly. Though its stated he'll be going to a place with loads of em. So I was thinking Goh will go to Pikachu Valley in Alola.

now that would be weird

 

[LukeRNG]

I wonder if they will remix every single song added from SwSh like with nearly every song from pokemon (aside from most of XY). Overal the remixes have been mixed: some very good, others average and others pretty bad.

 

[Delzethin]

Something minor from the Twitter account.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Wonder if we can drum up some Smash support somehow? Seems the biggest hurdle is the fact that so few people actually realize they're an option.

 

[Cosmic77]

Something minor from the Twitter account.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Wonder if we can drum up some Smash support somehow? Seems the biggest hurdle is the fact that so few people actually realize they're an option.

Yeah, that's gonna be a challenge. Seems like most people in the general speculation thread are stuck on "Spirit event = no Gen 8 Pokemon in Smash". Anyone who believes a Pokemon could still happen seem to believe Sakurai added the four Spirits knowing he wasn't adding any of them, despite the fact that he may have not even decided who the specific Pokemon would be by then. They also believe Cinderace and Urshifu not being included means something, even though it's more likely that they were never considered because neither were officially revealed until after SwSh released.

I'm open to ideas on how we can get more support for these two, but I have a feeling it'll have to involve looking in places outside Smashboards.

 

[Delzethin]

Yeah, that's gonna be a challenge. Seems like most people in the general speculation thread are stuck on "Spirit event = no Gen 8 Pokemon in Smash". Anyone who believes a Pokemon could still happen seem to believe Sakurai added the four Spirits knowing he wasn't adding any of them, despite the fact that he may have not even decided who the specific Pokemon would be by then. They also believe Cinderace and Urshifu not being included means something, even though it's more likely that they were never considered because neither were officially revealed until after SwSh released.

Honestly, I think the spirit event was set up before they ever started narrowing down who they might want for the 2nd Pass. It was there to ensure SwSh got included somehow no matter what happened, and because of that I think it (probably) doesn't have any actual effect on who might've been chosen to become fully playable. Especially since there's a plausible chance that they would've used a placeholder for a Gen 8 mon when locking in Pass 2 and waited to commit to someone until they let things play out, which is what happened with the previous two base rosters.

But yeah, seems like Smash speculation picks a few favorite mons to focus on and hardly deviates from it. Right now it's Rillaboom (with a major argument being to have a complete starter trio, which isn't how Sakurai operates), Cinderace because it's being promoted more than the other starters, Urshifu to "promote" the Isle of Armor DLC (even though it's been out a while now and any Gen 8 mon would "promote" the entirety of SwSh by that logic anyway), and Toxtricity because...I guess it caught on outside the Pokémon fanbase the way Mimikyu did two years ago.

And then there's the still-prevailing idea that a Gen 8 newcomer won't (or shouldn't) happen anyway because it'd get in the way of crossing over with more companies. Which is an argument with its own flaws, but one that's still dominating discussion even though the two most recent newcomers have flown against it.

While we're best off focusing on mons who are prominent within Gen 8, that doesn't necessarily correlate with the ones Smash speculation has focused on. Which makes it...difficult to pull people's attention toward a pair that wasn't deemed probable from the beginning.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I think the grass starter argument has come so full circle that people now think the grass starter is unlikely, because they presume it only has support for its typing completing something and any valid desire for the character must be an offshoot of that.
Furthermore, I think Incineroar kinda burned people from Pokémon speculation, since most Pokémon discourse seems to be loaded with cynicism in the vein of “oh they’ll pick an easy biped humanoid and call it a day”, which I think is partly why Urshifu is in the discourse as an easy stance-change gimmick Mon with the extra loaded cynicism of being the ultra-shiller for a recent game of an even more recent DLC pack.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I think the grass starter argument has come so full circle that people now think the grass starter is unlikely, because they presume it only has support for its typing completing something and any valid desire for the character must be an offshoot of that.
Furthermore, I think Incineroar kinda burned people from Pokémon speculation, since most Pokémon discourse seems to be loaded with cynicism in the vein of “oh they’ll pick an easy biped humanoid and call it a day”, which I think is partly why Urshifu is in the discourse as an easy stance-change gimmick Mon with the extra loaded cynicism of being the ultra-shiller for a recent game of an even more recent DLC pack.

That is assuming said Pokémon shows up in Ultimate as DLC period, seeing how The Pokémon Company was apparently rumored to be so hesitant on the idea of DLC campaigns for major Pokémon entries until recent years, yet that rumor is continually being seen as crying for wolf. Given how we couldn't even get Sugimori artwork for spirits until the Swish spirit event happened, I wouldn't be surprised.

If the above scenario is the case, Gen 8 would be lucky to even get anyone playable at all by Smash 6. No one wins then.

 

[LukeRNG]

That is assuming said Pokémon shows up in Ultimate as DLC period, seeing how The Pokémon Company was apparently rumored to be so hesitant on the idea of DLC campaigns for major Pokémon entries until recent years, yet that rumor is continually being seen as crying for wolf. Given how we couldn't even get Sugimori artwork for spirits until the Swish spirit event happened, I wouldn't be surprised.

If the above scenario is the case, Gen 8 would be lucky to even get anyone playable at all by Smash 6. No one wins then.

I know for certain Pokeball pokemon from gen 8 will happen. Whatever goes on with TCP, i wouldn't know myself. Don't think most people know what's going on and i wouldn't jump to conclusions based on rumors.

All i know is that people were burned from pokemon for similar reasons to Fire Emblem: the series has "too many reps", they pick "uninteresting and bland characters that are basically the same" and other series "deserve more representation". Even if it means neglecting potentially unique movesets because of their own tastes.

Honestly, I think the spirit event was set up before they ever started narrowing down who they might want for the 2nd Pass. It was there to ensure SwSh got included somehow no matter what happened, and because of that I think it (probably) doesn't have any actual effect on who might've been chosen to become fully playable. Especially since there's a plausible chance that they would've used a placeholder for a Gen 8 mon when locking in Pass 2 and waited to commit to someone until they let things play out, which is what happened with the previous two base rosters.

But yeah, seems like Smash speculation picks a few favorite mons to focus on and hardly deviates from it. Right now it's Rillaboom (with a major argument being to have a complete starter trio, which isn't how Sakurai operates), Cinderace because it's being promoted more than the other starters, Urshifu to "promote" the Isle of Armor DLC (even though it's been out a while now and any Gen 8 mon would "promote" the entirety of SwSh by that logic anyway), and Toxtricity because...I guess it caught on outside the Pokémon fanbase the way Mimikyu did two years ago.

And then there's the still-prevailing idea that a Gen 8 newcomer won't (or shouldn't) happen anyway because it'd get in the way of crossing over with more companies. Which is an argument with its own flaws, but one that's still dominating discussion even though the two most recent newcomers have flown against it.

While we're best off focusing on mons who are prominent within Gen 8, that doesn't necessarily correlate with the ones Smash speculation has focused on. Which makes it...difficult to pull people's attention toward a pair that wasn't deemed probable from the beginning.

It also doesn't help that many people dropped out of pokemon in the last few years due to staleness and don't give a damn about the series anymore. The SwSh controversy doesn't help either for serious speculation.

And the thing that frustrates me is that people are saying the last few dlc characters were crap because "no one asked for them", "they're not 3rd party" and saying stuff like "if the next character isn't 3rd party i'm done with smash". Why do people cling to just 3rd party characters when a 1st party can be just as exciting?

To me someone like Rex or Revali sounds more interesting than Lloyd or Crash (nothing agains them).

 

[Pokelego999]

I know for certain Pokeball pokemon from gen 8 will happen. Whatever goes on with TCP, i wouldn't know myself. Don't think most people know what's going on and i wouldn't jump to conclusions based on rumors.

All i know is that people were burned from pokemon for similar reasons to Fire Emblem: the series has "too many reps", they pick "uninteresting and bland characters that are basically the same" and other series "deserve more representation". Even if it means neglecting potentially unique movesets because of their own tastes.



It also doesn't help that many people dropped out of pokemon in the last few years due to staleness and don't give a damn about the series anymore. The SwSh controversy doesn't help either for serious speculation.

And the thing that frustrates me is that people are saying the last few dlc characters were crap because "no one asked for them", "they're not 3rd party" and saying stuff like "if the next character isn't 3rd party i'm done with smash". Why do people cling to just 3rd party characters when a 1st party can be just as exciting?

To me someone like Rex or Revali sounds more interesting than Lloyd or Crash (nothing agains them).

Honestly, I may dislike the newer games to an extent, but I don't hate Pokemon for it. I don't understand how you just quit Pokemon cause of a game not even related to it, or just cause of a few of the games quality.

 

[LukeRNG]

Honestly, I may dislike the newer games to an extent, but I don't hate Pokemon for it. I don't understand how you just quit Pokemon cause of a game not even related to it, or just cause of a few of the games quality.

What i meant to say is that people were burned out on the pokemon characters similarly to why they're tired of FE characters.

 

[Cosmic77]

And the thing that frustrates me is that people are saying the last few dlc characters were crap because "no one asked for them", "they're not 3rd party" and saying stuff like "if the next character isn't 3rd party i'm done with smash". Why do people cling to just 3rd party characters when a 1st party can be just as exciting?

To me someone like Rex or Revali sounds more interesting than Lloyd or Crash (nothing agains them).

From my experience talking with users on this site, people cling to third-parties for two main reasons:

One, they have more third-party characters than first-party characters they want in Smash. To them, "more first-parties" means, " I'm less likely to get to a character I want." Two, they've prioritized representation. Pokemon has 10 characters in Smash. Why add an eleventh when you could add a new franchise? Better yet, what if you could add a really big franchise like Crash Bandicoot, Kingdom Hearts, or Halo?

People are entitled to their beliefs and opinions, but I don't think it's fair to criticize Byleth and Min Min because "no one asked for them" when I could turn around and say the exact same thing about most of the other DLC characters. People have convinced themselves that anyone worth adding should be a third-party, even if the character is from a franchise they're hardly aware of.

 

[Delzethin]

From my experience talking with users on this site, people cling to third-parties for two main reasons:

One, they have more third-party characters than first-party characters they want in Smash. To them, "more first-parties" means, " I'm less likely to get to a character I want." Two, they've prioritized representation. Pokemon has 10 characters in Smash. Why add an eleventh when you could add a new franchise? Better yet, what if you could add a really big franchise like Crash Bandicoot, Kingdom Hearts, or Halo?

People are entitled to their beliefs and opinions, but I don't think it's fair to criticize Byleth and Min Min because "no one asked for them" when I could turn around and say the exact same thing about most of the other DLC characters. People have convinced themselves that anyone worth adding should be a third-party, even if the character is from a franchise they're hardly aware of.

Myopia, thy name is Smash speculation, especially lately. The community gravitates toward a set of ~10 characters and hardly looks at anyone else, then if anyone else gets in who isn't a total showstopper, they get written off as undeserving.

Seems like Smash fans are split into two groups now: one sees characters as a means to an end of creating more crossovers, while for the other, the characters are the end and it's more about choosing ones who would be different or interesting to play as. The former has dictated speculation for a year and a half now, but the latter is more likely to still be playing the game.

And that's the thing, there's a subgroup who is only really here for the newcomer reveals. They're here to watch it all like a blockbuster film, and some of them demand each reveal be some kind of mind blowing setpiece. They're loudest about demanding newcomers be chosen based on star power even though they're least likely to actually play as the characters for very long! And despite them being least likely to still be playing Ultimate a year and two thirds in, the characters they focus on comprise most of the community's short list.

No wonder we all get blindsided so often. Sakurai and Nintendo are still choosing things from a game design standpoint (and for good reason), while the community is assuming they'll be chosen for the sake of creating stories and plot twists. Which is why being ignored so much technically doesn't hurt our actual chances, but it sure gets frustrating being left on the outside looking in yet again.

It's more complicated than that, since people don't always fit cleanly into one group or another, but you get the idea.

 

[LukeRNG]

Myopia, thy name is Smash speculation, especially lately. The community gravitates toward a set of ~10 characters and hardly looks at anyone else, then if anyone else gets in who isn't a total showstopper, they get written off as undeserving.

Seems like Smash fans are split into two groups now: one sees characters as a means to an end of creating more crossovers, while for the other, the characters are the end and it's more about choosing ones who would be different or interesting to play as. The former has dictated speculation for a year and a half now, but the latter is more likely to still be playing the game.

And that's the thing, there's a subgroup who is only really here for the newcomer reveals. They're here to watch it all like a blockbuster film, and some of them demand each reveal be some kind of mind blowing setpiece. They're loudest about demanding newcomers be chosen based on star power even though they're least likely to actually play as the characters for very long! And despite them being least likely to still be playing Ultimate a year and two thirds in, the characters they focus on comprise most of the community's short list.

No wonder we all get blindsided so often. Sakurai and Nintendo are still choosing things from a game design standpoint (and for good reason), while the community is assuming they'll be chosen for the sake of creating stories and plot twists. Which is why being ignored so much technically doesn't hurt our actual chances, but it sure gets frustrating being left on the outside looking in yet again.

It's more complicated than that, since people don't always fit cleanly into one group or another, but you get the idea.

You'd think that these people would've learned their lesson by now after being dissapointed many times before: Lucina over Chrom, Dark Pit, Corrin, Bayonetta, Isabelle (which i still don't understand the hate for), Incineroar, Piranha Plant, Hero, Byleth & Min Min.
But they keep falling into the vicious cycle of Overhype & Dissapointement.

And i'm still baffled by the comunity swearing that Sakurai keeps leaving hints in either his presentations or screenshots on twitter. Where did they get that idea from?

 

[Cosmic77]

Personally, my favorite DLC character so far is Min Min, despite the fact that she wasn't even in my top three choices for an ARMS character. She's quite unique compared to the rest of the roster, and that's what matters most to me in a character.

How does the rest of the community feel? Well, in their own words, "If Min Min is a sign of things to come, we should be worried."

I totally understand that people have a connection with certain characters, which is why Banjo got in Smash. Still, I saw plenty of people claim that there were two, one, maybe no games repped in the first pass that they had played prior to the character reveals. Why does Terry, a character who was overshadowed by a Mii costume, get praised as a good addition, but Min Min, a character from a franchise quite a few people had wanted in the base roster, recieve a lot of indifferent or "meh" responses? It can't be because of fan demand; to be honest, I saw more support for an ARMS character than I did for an SNK rep. Could it be because Fatal Fury is more iconic? Well, even though I'm sure Fatal Fury is more iconic overall, it always felt like ARMS was the franchise the Smash fanbase was more familiar with, if only because of how new it was.

Personally, I believe the answer is pretty straightforward: Fatal Fury was very unexpected, ARMS was not. By default, third-parties are less likely to be chosen than first-parties. Third-parties are more of a struggle, what with the licensing issues, the negotiations, and the seemingly endless pool of options. First-parties on the other hand? Of course Nintendo would be interested in first-parties. They directly benefit from them, and the characters are very inexpensive to add. That's why someone like Inkling, despite Splatoon being insanely popular and the Inklings being one of the most requested characters for Smash 4, wasn't talked about very often after they were revealed. People don't praise the Inklings as one of the best additions in Ultimate because they were someone who everyone saw coming. Actually, the only first-party characters who a decent number of people would claim to be one of the best additions in Ultimate are the extremely popular ones who have been rejected multiple times in the past.

We'll see how the rest of the pass goes. Should we get more first-parties, I hope people will be more accepting than they have so far. Sadly, I don't think I have that much confidence in the fanbase. We're getting to a point where finally getting another Zelda or Kirby character is what more and more people are considering to be "a disappointing outcome".

 

[fogbadge]

You'd think that these people would've learned their lesson by now after being dissapointed many times before: Lucina over Chrom, Dark Pit, Corrin, Bayonetta, Isabelle (which i still don't understand the hate for), Incineroar, Piranha Plant, Hero, Byleth & Min Min.
But they keep falling into the vicious cycle of Overhype & Dissapointement.

And i'm still baffled by the comunity swearing that Sakurai keeps leaving hints in either his presentations or screenshots on twitter. Where did they get that idea from?

people hate min min and isabelle? certainly not the ac and arms crowds

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Min Min was a victim of circumstance. Havimg your series confirmed and thus speculated about for four months before dropping as sole new fighter in a pandemic with only online to hype you, it just drains a lot of your hype.

Also, this thread seems to slide towards a false dichotomy of “third party crossover characters” and “interesting characters”. Characters can be both. If you’re gonna berate the Smash community for simplifying, it would be nice if you didm’t fall into the same trap.

 

[fogbadge]

Min Min was a victim of circumstance. Havimg your series confirmed and thus speculated about for four months before dropping as sole new fighter in a pandemic with only online to hype you, it just drains a lot of your hype.

Also, this thread seems to slide towards a false dichotomy of “third party crossover characters” and “interesting characters”. Characters can be both. If you’re gonna berate the Smash community for simplifying, it would be nice if you didm’t fall into the same trap.

and to such people being majorly popular character in very well selling video games means nothing to such people

 

[LukeRNG]

people hate min min and isabelle? certainly not the ac and arms crowds

I was honestly seeing quite a lot of hate for Isabelle. I could never figure out why.
As for Minmin i'll clarify it was more people not caring and ignoring it because they didn't care for arms, which was following the dissapointment from the annoucement from an arms character.

Min Min was a victim of circumstance. Havimg your series confirmed and thus speculated about for four months before dropping as sole new fighter in a pandemic with only online to hype you, it just drains a lot of your hype.

Also, this thread seems to slide towards a false dichotomy of “third party crossover characters” and “interesting characters”. Characters can be both. If you’re gonna berate the Smash community for simplifying, it would be nice if you didm’t fall into the same trap.

I do still think there's plenty of unique 3rd party characters to be had, it's just that people clearly care more for who the character is rather than how unique or fun they end up playing (I probably shouldn't have made any examples in the first place).

Which i understand, they're fans of certain franchises and they dream of having representation in the biggest crossoveer game. I just wish people would be a bit more open to other characters outside of their circle (and for the vocal minority to stop getting all angry at Sakurai and even fans of characters picked for smash). Cause at the end of the day, it's a crossover game that features NINTENDO & 3RD party characters.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

and to such people being majorly popular character in very well selling video games means nothing to such people

Most characters in Smash are though, especially compared to the frontrunners. Min Min was a breakout starand ARMS was a spunky new IP that got its fair share of attention, but on that front it’s a bit small compared to the usual suspects of speculation.

I was honestly seeing quite a lot of hate for Isabelle. I could never figure out why.
As for Minmin i'll clarify it was more people not caring and ignoring it because they didn't care for arms, which was following the dissapointment from the annoucement from an arms character.



I do still think there's plenty of unique 3rd party characters to be had, it's just that people clearly care more for who the character is rather than how unique or fun they end up playing (I probably shouldn't have made any examples in the first place).

Which i understand, they're fans of certain franchises and they dream of having representation in the biggest crossoveer game. I just wish people would be a bit more open to other characters outside of their circle (and for the vocal minority to stop getting all angry at Sakurai and even fans of characters picked for smash). Cause at the end of the day, it's a crossover game that features NINTENDO & 3RD party characters.

Star power is easy hype and hype that is guaranteed with a characters inclusion. Trying to predict Sakurai’s character choices is hard, but trying to predict a moveset gimmick for a character is even harder. Even for characters like K. Rool, who dare I say had a lot of people thinking about his potential moveset, had a mechanic that at least I didn’t see pop up in the various iterations of the K. Rool thread. Star power-based hype locks in as soon as the character is added. A unique moveset is less inherent to the character, so there’s a chance the character doesn‘ take the route that the speculators think of. Bowser Jr., Rosalina, K. Rool and maybe even Byleth all show this.When people want Dante, for example, it’s disingenuous to say they do not think about his moveset. People do, but his game’s elements allow for many directions.

This is where, ’cross-over appeal‘ ties into this: Characters tend to take after their home game. Simon Belmont has whip animations directly lifted from Castlevania, Terry and the shotos fight like fighting games and Persona Joker uses a, well, Persona. Banjo oozes the cartoony googly-eyes appeal of his world and lifts animations from his game.

Do I think people should look outside the box? Yeah, there’s a lot of fun characters to find there. But to say “fun” or “moveset potential” can only be found in the overlooked erases part of why people rally behind the big guys in the first place.

 

[Cosmic77]

Min Min was a victim of circumstance. Havimg your series confirmed and thus speculated about for four months before dropping as sole new fighter in a pandemic with only online to hype you, it just drains a lot of your hype.

Also, this thread seems to slide towards a false dichotomy of “third party crossover characters” and “interesting characters”. Characters can be both. If you’re gonna berate the Smash community for simplifying, it would be nice if you didm’t fall into the same trap.

Most characters in Smash are though, especially compared to the frontrunners. Min Min was a breakout starand ARMS was a spunky new IP that got its fair share of attention, but on that front it’s a bit small compared to the usual suspects of speculation.




Star power is easy hype and hype that is guaranteed with a characters inclusion. Trying to predict Sakurai’s character choices is hard, but trying to predict a moveset gimmick for a character is even harder. Even for characters like K. Rool, who dare I say had a lot of people thinking about his potential moveset, had a mechanic that at least I didn’t see pop up in the various iterations of the K. Rool thread. Star power-based hype locks in as soon as the character is added. A unique moveset is less inherent to the character, so there’s a chance the character doesn‘ take the route that the speculators think of. Bowser Jr., Rosalina, K. Rool and maybe even Byleth all show this.When people want Dante, for example, it’s disingenuous to say they do not think about his moveset. People do, but his game’s elements allow for many directions.

This is where, ’cross-over appeal‘ ties into this: Characters tend to take after their home game. Simon Belmont has whip animations directly lifted from Castlevania, Terry and the shotos fight like fighting games and Persona Joker uses a, well, Persona. Banjo oozes the cartoony googly-eyes appeal of his world and lifts animations from his game.

Do I think people should look outside the box? Yeah, there’s a lot of fun characters to find there. But to say “fun” or “moveset potential” can only be found in the overlooked erases part of why people rally behind the big guys in the first place.

I don't think anyone here is claiming third-parties can't be unique. You can't generalize characters like that.

The issue I believe a lot of us have is that the first-party label is all it takes for some people to be disappointed, which is extremely unfair. Being third-party doesn't guarantee that your moveset will be unique. Likewise, being first-party doesn't mean you're doomed to be boring and uninteresting. I wish more people would consider what a character would bring rather than putting all of their focus on expanding the crossover and adding as many big names as possible just so they can say they're there.

 

[fogbadge]

I was honestly seeing quite a lot of hate for Isabelle. I could never figure out why.
As for Minmin i'll clarify it was more people not caring and ignoring it because they didn't care for arms, which was following the dissapointment from the annoucement from an arms character.

must be people just dont like ani

Most characters in Smash are though, especially compared to the frontrunners. Min Min was a breakout starand ARMS was a spunky new IP that got its fair share of attention, but on that front it’s a bit small compared to the usual suspects of speculation.

you think being the 20th best selling switch game would count for something

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I don't think anyone here is claiming third-parties can't be unique. You can't generalize characters like that.

The issue I believe a lot of us have is that the first-party label is all it takes for some people to be disappointed, which is extremely unfair. Being third-party doesn't guarantee that your moveset will be unique. Likewise, being first-party doesn't mean you're doomed to be boring and uninteresting. I wish more people would consider what a character would bring rather than putting all of their focus on expanding the crossover and adding as many big names as possible just so they can say they're there.

I think the animosity versus first party characters started long before the Fighters Pass, with the phrase “bottom of the barrel” being a thing for a long while. With K. Rool and Ridley in, and DLC1 focussing on third parties, that idea got even grander. First party characters that were big in the ballot are either in, or controversial (Bandana Dee)

I think for first parties as a concept, people are asking “well, which ones?” and bringing up their issues with the characters brought up (Bandana Dee and Waluigi are frontrunners, who are both historically controversial) while with third parties the consensus is that they’re usually universally loved and everyone can find a series they love.

And I think people do consider what a character can bring, look at the loads of source material that legacy series bring with them and notice that there’s a great set to be found there. Stars have star power for a reason, and to diminish their appeal to ”crossover goes vroom” is misplaced.

Finally, do we even get to frame it as a discussion of first vs third party? The most wanted first party from the top of my head are Bandana Dee, Dixie and Waluigi, whose dispute on overt moveset potential runs deeper and more complicated than their company. Byleth is our lost-count-th Fire Emblem character, and Min Min has the worst cluster headache of timing and announcements to her name.

The thing that does tie directly into cross-over appeal is the argument that character should “fill” a Challenger Pack, which I agree is a weird argument, but one that seems to be on the rebound now that Min Min’s Spirit Board recycles Spirits.

 

[LukeRNG]

I'm wondering if there's something we haven't talked about in regards to pokemon in smash already.

I guess... i'm looking foward to all the facial expressions to whoever joins smash, especially Zacian, Toxtricity or Dragapult.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm wondering if there's something we haven't talked about in regards to pokemon in smash already.

I guess... i'm looking foward to all the facial expressions to whoever joins smash, especially Zacian, Toxtricity or Dragapult.

The Legendaries are surprisingly expressive when they want to be, along with the others you listed. Toxtricity would probably cause a lot of memes to resurface.

That's one thing about Pokemon characters that I think most people can agree on. They're all pretty expressive and show their personalities pretty well, despite being restricted to grunts, growls, and syllables of their names.

 

[LukeRNG]

The Legendaries are surprisingly expressive when they want to be, along with the others you listed. Toxtricity would probably cause a lot of memes to resurface.

That's one thing about Pokemon characters that I think most people can agree on. They're all pretty expressive and show their personalities pretty well, despite being restricted to grunts, growls, and syllables of their names.

Regarding visual appearance, I feel people overlook how good the pokemon look in smash compared to the main 3d pokemon games.

For instance, the only reason I really like Incineroar & Mewtwo is because of how they look in smash. They can afford to add texture to their bodies. And in Incineroar's case, proper fur and muscles which doesn't look like an awkward Looney Tunes body.

And a small comment on the anime: I might be a bit triggered if Goh's Heracross gets more screentime than Ash's Heracross.

 

[Delzethin]

I don't think anyone here is claiming third-parties can't be unique. You can't generalize characters like that.

The issue I believe a lot of us have is that the first-party label is all it takes for some people to be disappointed, which is extremely unfair. Being third-party doesn't guarantee that your moveset will be unique. Likewise, being first-party doesn't mean you're doomed to be boring and uninteresting. I wish more people would consider what a character would bring rather than putting all of their focus on expanding the crossover and adding as many big names as possible just so they can say they're there.

That's what gets to me about all this. We're at a point where the crowd driving character speculation is not the main crowd playing Ultimate regularly. We have a group more interested in being entertained by the reveals and being able to say someone is or is not in Smash than they are in actually playing as the newcomers, far as I can tell. I don't get it, you know? At what point did we start getting dragged around by people who are only here hoping for a showstopping spectacle?

And what does it say about me that I've grown so resentful about it?

I think the animosity versus first party characters started long before the Fighters Pass, with the phrase “bottom of the barrel” being a thing for a long while. With K. Rool and Ridley in, and DLC1 focussing on third parties, that idea got even grander. First party characters that were big in the ballot are either in, or controversial (Bandana Dee)

I think for first parties as a concept, people are asking “well, which ones?” and bringing up their issues with the characters brought up (Bandana Dee and Waluigi are frontrunners, who are both historically controversial) while with third parties the consensus is that they’re usually universally loved and everyone can find a series they love.

And I think people do consider what a character can bring, look at the loads of source material that legacy series bring with them and notice that there’s a great set to be found there. Stars have star power for a reason, and to diminish their appeal to ”crossover goes vroom” is misplaced.

You make a good point, actually. The more long running fan requests Ultimate finally pulled in, the more common the "bottom of the barrel" talk got. Even though countering it is as simple as "The barrel keeps getting filled back up, have you looked in it lately?", the idea still persists that all the newer first parties aren't as important because...

Well, it's probably because the nostalgia factor isn't there yet. Most older fans don't feel the same emotional connection as they have with characters from their childhoods. And I'm saying that as someone who grew up in the '90s! Whatever the reasons, major parts of the community seem like they aren't looking past that nostalgia trip. Makes me wish there was a way to help them see there's more here.

With so many fans convinced there aren't many "deserving" first parties left, it's no wonder they're gravitating toward the third party characters they grew up with. From there, it's a short jump away to demanding more star power and crossovers for the sake of making Ultimate the biggest gaming event ever. Even though that...doesn't seem to be what Sakurai is aiming for.

And what I still don't get is...why continue to demand that the newcomers themselves be used as crossover tools? We've seen spirit events and Mii costumes be used for exactly that, and they're way easier to license and happen more often. Is it because so much of the community still thinks anything less than being fully playable is some kind of insult?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

That's what gets to me about all this. We're at a point where the crowd driving character speculation is not the main crowd playing Ultimate regularly. We have a group more interested in being entertained by the reveals and being able to say someone is or is not in Smash than they are in actually playing as the newcomers, far as I can tell. I don't get it, you know? At what point did we start getting dragged around by people who are only here hoping for a showstopping spectacle?

And what does it say about me that I've grown so resentful about it?


You make a good point, actually. The more long running fan requests Ultimate finally pulled in, the more common the "bottom of the barrel" talk got. Even though countering it is as simple as "The barrel keeps getting filled back up, have you looked in it lately?", the idea still persists that all the newer first parties aren't as important because...

Well, it's probably because the nostalgia factor isn't there yet. Most older fans don't feel the same emotional connection as they have with characters from their childhoods. And I'm saying that as someone who grew up in the '90s! Whatever the reasons, major parts of the community seem like they aren't looking past that nostalgia trip. Makes me wish there was a way to help them see there's more here.

With so many fans convinced there aren't many "deserving" first parties left, it's no wonder they're gravitating toward the third party characters they grew up with. From there, it's a short jump away to demanding more star power and crossovers for the sake of making Ultimate the biggest gaming event ever. Even though that...doesn't seem to be what Sakurai is aiming for.

And what I still don't get is...why continue to demand that the newcomers themselves be used as crossover tools? We've seen spirit events and Mii costumes be used for exactly that, and they're way easier to license and happen more often. Is it because so much of the community still thinks anything less than being fully playable is some kind of insult?

The barrel does get refilled, but it just as quickly get depleted again. Break-out stars like Palutena, Inkling and Isabelle got added quite quickly after their rise to prominence. Viable characters don’t enter the spotlight every year, and I do think new releases are kept in mind in speculation. Pokémon does get discussion, although in my view one drenched in cynicism.

Besides, while newer characters tend to be overlooked because people rate their credentials to be lower, characters that release in a neat window of Smash development shouldn’t be rated better as old characters either. I remember a very nasty time post-Smash 4 speculation where characters older than six months were already deemed irrelevant. It was a very volatile cycle where every new game release got a high-rising, quickly fading bandwagon. Nostalgia might be a factor, but newer series also didn’t get the chance to prove themselves and build up a resume in the sense that older series did. ARMS might not be a mainstay when compared to series like Devil May Cry or Puyo Puyo.

While “bigger, better, higher, hyper” is a trend in Smash speculation and one that explains some of the flow that the conversation is headed in, I don’t want to underestimate the genuine love people have for the series, characters and possible movesets of the frontrunners. “Crossover value” is a powerful force that’s present as the undercurrent in this era of speculation, but implying that it’s the sole catalyst behind people looking out for characters of series they love is cynical and counter-culture for the sake of it. Same with nostalgia.

Furthermore, I actually think it is the set-up of a challenger pack that makes people think DLC lends itself well for crossovers, rather than simply the playable character. Getting a newcomer paired with a stage, Spirit Board and music means that the world of the newcomer is expressed in more than just moveset. You can catch glimpses of this reasoning when people say characters are “base roster additions” or the older argument of “Can it fill a Spirit Board?”. I’ve seen talk of Waluigi being seen as more of a ’bonus character’ because of that “complete package” sentiment. Maybe it‘s also why Sans was received so well, because he brought that piece of music along with him for more “cross-over value.”?

And again, for first parties it might be helpful to look at individual cases. The frontrunners have their fair share of controversies already, including those that made it in. If your flag-bearers are Bandana Dee and Dixie Kong, it’s not a surprise that disputes about moveset potential arise. If the characters that paved the way include Byleth and Corrin, it’s hard to shake the feeling of first party DLC having that shill element. It combines with the bottom-of-the-barrel talk: Third party as a category has something for everyone, whereas the appeal of a first party pass is deemed as reserved for those who have a specific stake in it and fans of one of the specific frontrunners.

 

[Cosmic77]

You make a good point, actually. The more long running fan requests Ultimate finally pulled in, the more common the "bottom of the barrel" talk got. Even though countering it is as simple as "The barrel keeps getting filled back up, have you looked in it lately?", the idea still persists that all the newer first parties aren't as important because...

Well, it's probably because the nostalgia factor isn't there yet. Most older fans don't feel the same emotional connection as they have with characters from their childhoods. And I'm saying that as someone who grew up in the '90s! Whatever the reasons, major parts of the community seem like they aren't looking past that nostalgia trip. Makes me wish there was a way to help them see there's more here.

In a lot of cases nostalgia does help, but I don't think it explains why newer third-parties and more niche third-parties generally recieve a favorable response from fans. I don't think the size of the franchise really explains it either

Joker debuted around the same time as Incineroar. While Persona isn't a new franchise by any means, it was never really a huge success or widely known until P5. In fact, almost half of the 13M sales the franchise has comes from games related to P5 (including Royale and Scramble). So when people say Joker was a "huge" character, I don't think many of them are meaning it in a way where they fondly recall their memories of P3 and P4. I'd say a majority of those people are talking about Persona 5 alone, a 2017 game. Not sure if "nostalgia" is the correct word when there was roughly a two-year gap between P5 and Joker's reveal.

Then you have Terry, who didn't really have a lot of nostalgia-fueled support going for him prior to his reveal. A large majority of Smash fans weren't very familiar with SNK or Fatal Fury due to its size, but most of the users here were supportive of Terry, even before doing research on the character and his franchise. I won't debate how "big" Fatal Fury really is, but most people will defend Terry's inclusion by stating that Fatal Fury is popular in Mexico. In a way, doesn't that sort of confirm that they don't believe the franchise left a big mark in other regions, such as the United States, Europe, and Japan?

The only connection I can make between all four of the DLC third-parties is what I had been saying earlier; people want what they can't have. If someone is given the illusion that a character is unlikely or difficult to add, then they'll be more inclined to be supportive. Doesn't matter how new the franchise is, doesn't matter how iconic the franchise is, doesn't matter how many requests the franchise receives — it's all about the image of accomplishing the impossible, so unless your name is Ridley, K. Rool, Waluigi, or Isaac, I think a majority of third-parties have a leg up over all first-parties just for the fact that they aren't owned by Nintendo.

 

[fogbadge]

Joker debuted around the same time as Incineroar. While Persona isn't a new franchise by any means, it was never really a huge success or widely known until P5. In fact, almost half of the 13M sales the franchise has comes from games related to P5 (including Royale and Scramble). So when people say Joker was a "huge" character, I don't think many of them are meaning it in a way where they fondly recall their memories of P3 and P4. I'd say a majority of those people are talking about Persona 5 alone, a 2017 game. Not sure if "nostalgia" is the correct word when there was roughly a two-year gap between P5 and Joker's reveal.

Then you have Terry, who didn't really have a lot of nostalgia-fueled support going for him prior to his reveal. A large majority of Smash fans weren't very familiar with SNK or Fatal Fury due to its size, but most of the users here were supportive of Terry, even before doing research on the character and his franchise. I won't debate how "big" Fatal Fury really is, but most people will defend Terry's inclusion by stating that Fatal Fury is popular in Mexico. In a way, doesn't that sort of confirm that they don't believe the franchise left a big mark in other regions, such as the United States, Europe, and Japan?

youre forgetting the key thing that got them in: sakurai

 

[LukeRNG]

Can someone explain what controversy is surrounding Bandana Waddle Dee?

 

[fogbadge]

Can someone explain what controversy is surrounding Bandana Waddle Dee?

people think he's just a glorified basic enemy not a full fledged character which upsets his fans

 

[LukeRNG]

people think he's just a glorified basic enemy not a full fledged character which upsets his fans

If anything, Bandana is in a better position than Piranha Plant (who also was dlc). He's an established character.
It's like saying the addition of Captain Toad would be a waste because he's a glorified npc. It's ridiculous.

In other things, the first sign of next year's Anniversary has leaked in the form of a TCG Card: a Chimchar card interestingly enough.
I'm just realizing how big next year could be, given how #Pokemon20 was and the fact that the 25th anniversary in gaming is typically a huge deal.

Other than the potential Gen 4 remakes, Pokemon Unite and New Pokemon Snap, do you think the pokemon rep would happen next year along with the anniversary celebration. It'd fit perfectly.

 

[fogbadge]

If anything, Bandana is in a better position than Piranha Plant (who also was dlc). He's an established character.
It's like saying the addition of Captain Toad would be a waste because he's a glorified npc. It's ridiculous.

all of his fans would agree

In other things, the first sign of next year's Anniversary has leaked in the form of a TCG Card: a Chimchar card interestingly enough.
I'm just realizing how big next year could be, given how #Pokemon20 was and the fact that the 25th anniversary in gaming is typically a huge deal.

Other than the potential Gen 4 remakes, Pokemon Unite and New Pokemon Snap, do you think the pokemon rep would happen next year along with the anniversary celebration. It'd fit perfectly.

i dunno if wed get a pokemon for the anniversary, maybe if we get a mario character for smb's anniversary this year[/QUOTE]

 

[LukeRNG]

all of his fans would agree



i dunno if wed get a pokemon for the anniversary, maybe if we get a mario character for smb's anniversary this year

[/QUOTE]

I'd say Geno would be the biggest present for the fans. Though Paper Mario could work more towards Mario fans in general and not just fans of Super Mario RPG. I could see them adding a Mario character (and if they'd take advantage of anniversaries then a Zelda character for next year would be perfect).

 

[fogbadge]

I'd say Geno would be the biggest present for the fans. Though Paper Mario could work more towards Mario fans in general and not just fans of Super Mario RPG. I could see them adding a Mario character (and if they'd take advantage of anniversaries then a Zelda character for next year would be perfect).

itd be much better if they added someone who debuted in smb for the anniversary not a one off character

 

[LukeRNG]

itd be much better if they added someone who debuted in smb for the anniversary not a one off character

What's wrong with having a one off character? Plus it doesn't necessarily need to be someone who debuted in Super Mario Bros. A spin-off is fine.

 

[Cosmic77]

Feels like we've sort of strayed away from the main topic, so thought I'd share this.

It's weird seeing Zacian without the sword.