The ledge

[goodoldganon]

Everyone's least favorite place to be. It used to be a death sentence to some characters, till we extended the invincibility duration on the ledge. But this came at the cost of easier edgehogging. Either way, it seems we wanted to slightly tweak it from discussion in the IRC tonight, and I wrote down our ideas and if any one else agrees/disagrees.

1. Less invincibility
2. Faster get up rolls
3. Faster normal get up
4. More invincibility on the get up options.

Obviously we wouldn't adopt all them at once, or even any of them. Just writing this down for those to put their thoughts in the pot in case you aren't always in IRC.

 

[Revven]

Faster roll - Sounds alright, however, don't give it more invinc frames. I've used it a bunch of times myself, as DK, to get on the stage safely and the invinc frames were enough to do so. But, that's me.

Faster normal get up - You're going to have to speed up the different ones at 100% and above. afaik, the ones before the 100%, the normal get up seems to work faster and is fine but the ones at 100% are the real culprit to getting back onto the stage. Might need more invinc frames on the ones before 100%, not sure about after the 100%.

Come to think of it, we should fix everything that changes after 100%, it seems really stupid. I'm pretty sure it was in Melee too, someone check? Can't really understand the point to them as all it seems to do is nerf the opponent that's at or above 100%, making it harder to survive.

 

[The Cape]

Well you can speed up all the ledge getup attacks by a certain speed (1.2x or so) with an FF character ID. Easy fix, two lines.

 

[CT Chia]

i would suggest keeping the attack speed. increase the invicibility you have while rolling up from the ledge so its a safer option

 

[leafgreen386]

I really hate the >99% ledge stuff. It's like... the only time in smash where you get punished for being behind. Smash in general is really good about avoiding slippery slope, but the ledges stick out like a sore thumb in what is otherwise fairly streamlined. And yes, this mechanic was in melee, but it sucked there, too.

I think we should enable a player to perform either their >99% getup or <100% at will, regardless of the actual percent they're at. Same deal with the fast and slow getups or rolls, since although there are situations you would want the slower getup, more often than not you want the <100% version. I suggest that we strip the Z button of whatever it normally does on the ledge and instead make it so that if you hold it down before performing your getup attack, getup roll, or regular getup that it causes you to perform the >99% version, whereas if you do not, you always perform the <100% one.

 

[goodoldganon]

I like the 99% getup... It's just a flavor thing. I mean, you're character has taken a lot of damage, he's beaten and out of breath, and now he has to pull his weight onto the stage? That's gonna take a while... Besides, after 99% you can still do ledgehops at the same speed. I don't know...never really bothered me.

I'd like to do a character by character analysis of who would need these buffs and who doesn't. Marth ledge traps like a fiend and his supposed weakness is his ability to get gimped, so he shouldn't get tweaked. Someone, like say Bowser, who is slow, not the greatest, has a predictable recovery, and poor ledge hop options (least I think he does) should get more invincibility on some ledge options.

That's my two cents. I'd just rather edit the amount of invincibility you get coming onto the stage directly, rather then grabbing it.

 

[leafgreen386]

Explain then why swinging a sword over your head still only takes 10 frames and hits just as hard when the character is supposed to be "tired" compared to when they first spawn? In this instance, really, screw flavour. It is completely backwards and horrid game design to be punished for making it back to the ledge at a high percent.

You talk about how marth has all these ledge traps and thus doesn't need the buff to his ability to get back on the stage. Uh... this is going to serve as an indirect nerf to marth (!). We shouldn't be making the non-ledgehop options great, but they should at least be actual options.

 

[goodoldganon]

*shrugs*

As I said, never really bothered me. I enjoy it but won't whine if we change it. Never really saw it as that big of a deal. Very few of them are THAT much worse then their 99% and lower options. A few though (DK and Bowser) are pretty bad.

 

[Yeroc]

Leaf, I know you mentioned making it an option thing, but I'm seriously having a hard time thinking of a time that the >99 ledge animations would be preferable to the <99 ones, at least against good opponents that don't get tripped up by those things. I remember Husband demonstrating quite mercilessly back in 2005 how Samus could do absolutely nothing against Marth once she was over 100.

It would also be much simpler to just basically take those animations out entirely, by changing the cutoff to 999 (or as high as we can get depending on the length of the variable - 256%, for example, would be more than high enough of a change). I would imagine that it could be a very simple code to find and make, too. What would any of you think about something like that?

 

[shanus]

why dont we just speed up both of them. I do kind of like the slower roll up animation after 100 though. You are at a higher percentage and I dont think that should be at a equal playing field as those at earlier.

 

[leafgreen386]

why dont we just speed up both of them. I do kind of like the slower roll up animation after 100 though. You are at a higher percentage and I dont think that should be at a equal playing field as those at earlier.

The disadvantage of being closer to death is... being closer to death. You don't need to have your ledge options cut as well.

Yeroc: We can use the CAM to remove them if we want, without any need for an additional code. Although there are times when you might want to use the >99% ledge attack, either due to it having a bigger hitbox, or simply because it's a slower attack and you're trying to trip up your foe into attacking early. Not saying this would be often... it's just something you would throw in every now and then to mix it up, but it can be useful.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic for instance has a better >99% ledge attack than his normal one. It's stronger, does more damage, and even links into combos. However, the tradeoff (not much, but it's there), is the speed lost from his normal getup spin...thing.

Another example of someone with a decent >99% ledge attack is Ike, because of the superior range (his other one is terrible in that regard). Pit could be another case as well, for the same reason.

Making it a choice would be the best way to go, because not all characters want to lose their >99% legdge attack.

 

[Deleted member]

well we can also give some only their >99 ledge attack.
I'd say someoen make a list of who keeps the original way, who only uses the normal ledge attack an who only uses the >99 ledge attack and I'll add it to CAM for testing

anyone know if these count as different actions? otherwise we do need a new code

 

[goodoldganon]

I believe so PK. They have different hitbox data so...

 

[shanus]

i really dislike this idea of removing the >99%, its totally personal preference and isn't bad game design. It punishes a hurt (read: tired) player and limits their options as such. This player is in a disadvantageous position and should be given their innate punishment they received. I agree the current get-up animations are currently too slow and should be sped up to match the current game speed. However, I do NOT support any removal of the different >99% option as I think its another one of those "holding my hand" options in facilitating easier gameplay. Getting off the edge should be a decision making process, and rolling with a hurt character should be innately harder. I think speeding up the get up and roll animations to be viable is more than enough and just allows for a few more strategies aside from ledgehopped aerials.

 

[GHNeko]

>99 Get up attacks should have longer invici frames with the same speed, while the rolls should generally be faster (not as fast as <99 rolls though) with the same amount of invic frames.