The King of Klones (the Ganon character design thread)

[Frostwraith]

Ganondorf is primarily represented as a swordsman with dark magic at his disposal, and while giving him a sword and magic based moveset would be seen as doing him justice, acting like he's never used non-sword attacks at all is still ignoring the very apparent fact that Ganondorf can and will use physical attacks either in conjunction with his sword and/or magic techniques or without them. In literally every appearance Ganondorf was in he used an offensive combat technique involving his own body. With that said, I do believe that Ganondorf would most accurately be portrayed using a sword or two in conjunction with magic and straight brawling (about a third of his moveset for each). Super Smash Bros. has currently only gotten one of those right while appearing to look like it got two (he doesn't use any direct offensive magic and his swordplay is absent).

Well, you're pretty much correct.

If we had to make a checklist about Ganondorf (+ means represented in Smash, - means not):
+ Physical strength
+ Enhancing physical strength with magic
+ Beast Ganon transformation (and as I said above, a quite faithful reproduction of the Ganon battle in Twilight Princess)
- Swordplay (aside from a passing allusion via taunt and a Warlock Punch variant, he barely uses the sword)
- Long ranged magic

The first two points are all over the place in his moveset, but could be toned down to give place to something that fits at least one of the last two points. If he were given at least one long ranged attack (basically replace one of his special moves, preferably the down special), he would be similar to his Ocarina of Time incarnation, covering all of the abilities he shows in that game.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Well, you're pretty much correct.

If we had to make a checklist about Ganondorf (+ means represented in Smash, - means not):
+ Physical strength
+ Enhancing physical strength with magic
+ Beast Ganon transformation (and as I said above, a quite faithful reproduction of the Ganon battle in Twilight Princess)
- Swordplay (aside from a passing allusion via taunt and a Warlock Punch variant, he barely uses the sword)
- Long ranged magic

The first two points are all over the place in his moveset, but could be toned down to give place to something that fits at least one of the last two points. If he were given at least one long ranged attack (basically replace one of his special moves, preferably the down special), he would be similar to his Ocarina of Time incarnation, covering all of the abilities he shows in that game.

If I may add;

- agility/speed - Ganon may not run fast but he makes great jumps/leaps and has very quick Sword strikes shown in WW+TP, neither his agility (which IRL strength is very important for jumping, sprinting and agility which Ganon has plenty to spare) or the quickness/precision he shows with his strikes in his own games got translated to Smash very well (if at all).
- personality (mostly shown through animations in smash) - if Ganondorf losses an battle would he clap for his foe like in his losing screen animation? I think Not. -Would he be running like an old geezer when he is clearly not old and has god like strength? Also I think Not. - would the way he moves look sluggish? Also going by how he moves in his games, No. - Would he rather kick upwards (up smash)? or use a magic blast/thrust a sword upwards? Would he consider doing the Up tilt move in his games? Or would he rather punch the floor creating a shock wave (like in OoT)?

^All those little things that he does/doesn't do make him even further removed form his actual in game personality. For almost every move he does in Smash he theoretically has a much better/more effective option at his disposal. Also to me he just doesn't feel like an evil murdering tyrant while running like a geezer and clapping for his foes? No way! he would not only be too proud/has a way too huge ego to except defeat, he would also do his utmost best to crush his opponent and demoralize them. And he would use whatever tools he has to do that. Best example is in TP; controlling Zelda, Beast Ganon, "Giant Orb thingy" of mass energy against Midna, Horse back battle, 1v1 sword duel vs Link. in Oot; fight with magic, destroys his castle, Beast Ganon etc...

I would like some original moves for Ganondorf in smash (DMV for neutral B, more magic in moveset, a sword for some moves (smash attacks especially)), but even if he must remain a mostly hand to hand fighter than ok... as long as his animations make sense and the moves altered to fit a magic infused brawler that is also an evil tyrant, not a grandpa... And that his personality reflects just what he is; an evil, menacing killer with absolutely no remorse and no value for anyone's life (not even his own people (see; OoT)) that would use whatever he's got to pulverize his foes. That's Ganondorf! So not only Smash got his moveset completely wrong, they also managed to screw up his personality...

Not to mention his new textures/design in smash 4 is ugly and goofy looking. Why didn't they just use his design from Brawl? It was prefect there... also his textures are unfinished/are poor. There is a thread somewhere around here that clearly showed it. Which also points to a rushed job from the devs regarding Ganon's development

 

[Frostwraith]

If I may add;

- agility/speed - Ganon may not run fast but he makes great jumps/leaps and has very quick Sword strikes shown in WW+TP, neither his agility (which IRL strength is very important for jumping, sprinting and agility which Ganon has plenty to spare) or the quickness/precision he shows with his strikes in his own games got translated to Smash very well (if at all).

To be honest, I think his slowness in Smash is a counterbalance to his attack strength, which is easily the highest in Smash.

Ike is also shown to be much faster in the Fire Emblem games he stars in and even has a high Speed stat, but is quite slow in Smash as a result of being a heavyweight. Ganondorf is no different in that regard.

- personality (mostly shown through animations in smash) - if Ganondorf losses an battle would he clap for his foe like in his losing screen animation? I think Not. -Would he be running like an old geezer when he is clearly not old and has god like strength? Also I think Not. - would the way he moves look sluggish? Also going by how he moves in his games, No. - Would he rather kick upwards (up smash)? or use a magic blast/thrust a sword upwards? Would he consider doing the Up tilt move in his games? Or would he rather punch the floor creating a shock wave (like in OoT)?

Pretty much every character claps when losing, though there have been a few exceptions, so I guess Ganondorf could be one of those.

The sluggishness is, once again, part of balancing as heavyweights tend to have slow but strong moves. Ganondorf even hits harder than most heavyweights, so being slow is a necessity lest he risks being overpowered.

^All those little things that he does/doesn't do make him even further removed form his actual in game personality. For almost every move he does in Smash he theoretically has a much better/more effective option at his disposal. Also to me he just doesn't feel like an evil murdering tyrant while running like a geezer and clapping for his foes? No way! he would not only be too proud/has a way too huge ego to except defeat, he would also do his utmost best to crush his opponent and demoralize them. And he would use whatever tools he has to do that. Best example is in TP; controlling Zelda, Beast Ganon, "Giant Orb thingy" of mass energy against Midna, Horse back battle, 1v1 sword duel vs Link. in Oot; fight with magic, destroys his castle, Beast Ganon etc...

He does retain some of his villainous vibe, but I agree it is toned down in Smash. Even in the SSE in Brawl, while villainous, he is not as ruthless as he is in his games.

This toned down portrayal is actually closer to his Wind Waker personality, where he is more honorable, calmer and cunning, contrasting with his ruthless, brutal nature in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess.

Wind Waker is the only game where Ganondorf shows some remorse for his actions and actually spares Link and Zelda's lives when getting their Triforce parts. He still retains some ruthlessness in the sense he will do anything for his goals, but he's much more subtle about it.

This portrayal does make sense as he was defeated in the past by the Hero of Time and is less prideful to the point of not underestimating his foes.

However, when he gets the whole Triforce and is about to have his wish granted, only to be interrupted by the King of Hyrule at the very last second, he snaps, laughs insanely and reverts to his old brutal self, engaging Link and Zelda in one final duel to the death.

Considering the composite nature of the Zelda characters (notably with Zelda having her Twilight Princess design, OoT spells and Phantom from Spirit Tracks or Sheik transformation), it's not too far fetched to see him in this light. Wind Waker was my first Zelda game, so I tend to have that game's interpretation of him in mind more than the other games' portrayal.

Not to mention his new textures/design in smash 4 is ugly and goofy looking. Why didn't they just use his design from Brawl? It was prefect there... also his textures are unfinished/are poor. There is a thread somewhere around here that clearly showed it. Which also points to a rushed job from the devs regarding Ganon's development

On the 3DS version, he looks better, I must say. Though that also applies to a few other characters, like Link.

Also, they had to make new models for all characters due to developing in a HD system. Simply porting the Wii models wouldn't be viable. The design is still based on Twilight Princess, though.

I agree the model could look better, especially regarding facial expressions, though the more colorful textures remind me of Wind Waker, which isn't a bad thing, honestly.

The facial expressions issue is a bit ironic, as he also had some goofy-looking faces in his original games. Like these:

I couldn't take that moment very seriously even though he was threatening Link, Zelda and the Sages' descendants.

The face he does when taking the final blow in Twilight Princess is also kind of funny.

Anyway, I agree that his Brawl model looked better and that the Smash 4 development team could have done a better job when doing Ganondorf's HD model. Though those flaws are impossible to note during normal gameplay and require specific camera angles, so I don't think it's that problematic. Could have still been avoided, though.

Then again, a few other characters also have animation problems, like Rosalina where her legs sometimes stick out of her dress and you note they aren't fully renderized and actually disconnected from her body. In the 3DS version, Dark Pit has a bug in the grab pummeling animation where the bow detaches from his model, something that doesn't happen with Pit.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

If I may add;

- agility/speed - Ganon may not run fast but he makes great jumps/leaps and has very quick Sword strikes shown in WW+TP, neither his agility (which IRL strength is very important for jumping, sprinting and agility which Ganon has plenty to spare) or the quickness/precision he shows with his strikes in his own games got translated to Smash very well (if at all).
- personality (mostly shown through animations in smash) - if Ganondorf losses an battle would he clap for his foe like in his losing screen animation? I think Not. -Would he be running like an old geezer when he is clearly not old and has god like strength? Also I think Not. - would the way he moves look sluggish? Also going by how he moves in his games, No. - Would he rather kick upwards (up smash)? or use a magic blast/thrust a sword upwards? Would he consider doing the Up tilt move in his games? Or would he rather punch the floor creating a shock wave (like in OoT)?

^All those little things that he does/doesn't do make him even further removed form his actual in game personality. For almost every move he does in Smash he theoretically has a much better/more effective option at his disposal. Also to me he just doesn't feel like an evil murdering tyrant while running like a geezer and clapping for his foes? No way! he would not only be too proud/has a way too huge ego to except defeat, he would also do his utmost best to crush his opponent and demoralize them. And he would use whatever tools he has to do that. Best example is in TP; controlling Zelda, Beast Ganon, "Giant Orb thingy" of mass energy against Midna, Horse back battle, 1v1 sword duel vs Link. in Oot; fight with magic, destroys his castle, Beast Ganon etc...

I would like some original moves for Ganondorf in smash (DMV for neutral B, more magic in moveset, a sword for some moves (smash attacks especially)), but even if he must remain a mostly hand to hand fighter than ok... as long as his animations make sense and the moves altered to fit a magic infused brawler that is also an evil tyrant, not a grandpa... And that his personality reflects just what he is; an evil, menacing killer with absolutely no remorse and no value for anyone's life (not even his own people (see; OoT)) that would use whatever he's got to pulverize his foes. That's Ganondorf! So not only Smash got his moveset completely wrong, they also managed to screw up his personality...

Not to mention his new textures/design in smash 4 is ugly and goofy looking. Why didn't they just use his design from Brawl? It was prefect there... also his textures are unfinished/are poor. There is a thread somewhere around here that clearly showed it. Which also points to a rushed job from the devs regarding Ganon's development

- Ganondorf definitely needs to be a tad faster. I'd rather he kept his slow walking pace but gain a fast running pace and have those surprisingly fast attacks he's a bit known for. And he feels a little more true to him by looking like a weathered and bitter old man (in terms of his idles and facial expressions.
- I can see him begrudgingly clapping for whoever beat him while scheming a revenge plot; Hyrule Warriors shows that he's not that too removed from compliments, but make him clearly showing that he's not happy (and besides, having him being the only person not to clap in Super Smash Bros. would seem a little out of place when virtually everyone else does).
- Ganondorf is technically an old man, but he doesn't have to act like it when he's attacking or running; he can manage nonchalant and he can look physically old but does not have to show his age in combat.
- I will admit that they did not get his moveset or personality entirely right, but it's a step up from Melee. They could definitely improve him in the future and if Sakurai is capable of getting some characters reasonably believable in Super Smash Bros. then I'm sure that he could do the same for Ganondorf; it took him a while with some others but I wouldn't say that Sakurai would never consider fleshing Ganondorf out sometime in the future.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

@ Frostwraith It's not necessarily a matter of running fast, but how you look whilst running. I would have liked him to be running in this manner in Smash 4, being far less stiff-looking, almost as if he couldn't be bothered. This animation change help adds to his brutality, making him seem more like someone eager to hunt down and crush his opponents as opposed to his "Eh, who cares" running animation he currently has.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

To be honest, I think his slowness in Smash is a counterbalance to his attack strength, which is easily the highest in Smash.

Ike is also shown to be much faster in the Fire Emblem games he stars in and even has a high Speed stat, but is quite slow in Smash as a result of being a heavyweight. Ganondorf is no different in that regard.


Pretty much every character claps when losing, though there have been a few exceptions, so I guess Ganondorf could be one of those.

The sluggishness is, once again, part of balancing as heavyweights tend to have slow but strong moves. Ganondorf even hits harder than most heavyweights, so being slow is a necessity lest he risks being overpowered.


He does retain some of his villainous vibe, but I agree it is toned down in Smash. Even in the SSE in Brawl, while villainous, he is not as ruthless as he is in his games.

This toned down portrayal is actually closer to his Wind Waker personality, where he is more honorable, calmer and cunning, contrasting with his ruthless, brutal nature in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess.

Wind Waker is the only game where Ganondorf shows some remorse for his actions and actually spares Link and Zelda's lives when getting their Triforce parts. He still retains some ruthlessness in the sense he will do anything for his goals, but he's much more subtle about it.

This portrayal does make sense as he was defeated in the past by the Hero of Time and is less prideful to the point of not underestimating his foes.

However, when he gets the whole Triforce and is about to have his wish granted, only to be interrupted by the King of Hyrule at the very last second, he snaps, laughs insanely and reverts to his old brutal self, engaging Link and Zelda in one final duel to the death.

Considering the composite nature of the Zelda characters (notably with Zelda having her Twilight Princess design, OoT spells and Phantom from Spirit Tracks or Sheik transformation), it's not too far fetched to see him in this light. Wind Waker was my first Zelda game, so I tend to have that game's interpretation of him in mind more than the other games' portrayal.


On the 3DS version, he looks better, I must say. Though that also applies to a few other characters, like Link.

Also, they had to make new models for all characters due to developing in a HD system. Simply porting the Wii models wouldn't be viable. The design is still based on Twilight Princess, though.

I agree the model could look better, especially regarding facial expressions, though the more colorful textures remind me of Wind Waker, which isn't a bad thing, honestly.

The facial expressions issue is a bit ironic, as he also had some goofy-looking faces in his original games. Like these:

I couldn't take that moment very seriously even though he was threatening Link, Zelda and the Sages' descendants.

The face he does when taking the final blow in Twilight Princess is also kind of funny.

Anyway, I agree that his Brawl model looked better and that the Smash 4 development team could have done a better job when doing Ganondorf's HD model. Though those flaws are impossible to note during normal gameplay and require specific camera angles, so I don't think it's that problematic. Could have still been avoided, though.

Then again, a few other characters also have animation problems, like Rosalina where her legs sometimes stick out of her dress and you note they aren't fully renderized and actually disconnected from her body. In the 3DS version, Dark Pit has a bug in the grab pummeling animation where the bow detaches from his model, something that doesn't happen with Pit.

I never meant he should be fast, far from it actually. But when he executes his moves they need to look more "convincing" and more "precise" looking.

Although he is old in years that shouldn't affect his movement because 1- he is immortal and virtually the same age in TP as he was in OoT and a bit older in WW (but no older than the equivalent of 35-45) and 2- he has God like strength, power, agility and he had magic. Like I said earlier to hit hard you need to be strong, to sprint fast you also need to be strong, to jump high you also need to be strong etc. you guys get my point? Theoretically he should have no issue running, jumping and overall moving fast while hitting hard.

In smash for balance he is slow, Which makes sense. Also when I said sluggish I meant his animations, he can be the same speed as now but with better animation he would *look* faster. However he is far too slow for his own good, and the fact that he had barley any reach and his hit boxes are very close to his hurt boxes compared to the rest of the cast (especially compared to Ike) is a real detriment to hi/ viability... But that's a whole different topic altogether now.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

Although he is old in years that shouldn't affect his movement because 1- he is immortal and virtually the same age in TP as he was in OoT and a bit older in WW (but no older than the equivalent of 35-45)

Minor nitpicking, but there's no way that's true. Look at his face closeup in TP and Brawl (not so much this game because it's smooth). There's lines and wrinkles and such all over. I wouldn't put him anything under 50 in his TP design.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Minor nitpicking, but there's no way that's true. Look at his face closeup in TP and Brawl (not so much this game because it's smooth). There's lines and wrinkles and such all over. I wouldn't put him anything under 50 in his TP design.

Umm plenty of people even under 30 have wrinkles...
Besides if he had a smooth face he would look ridiculous lol...

 

[Enderwoman]

text

And are we seriously complaining about him clapping on the results screen now? Seriously? The only character that doesn't clap in Smash is Jigglypuff and that's because she physically cant.

- Ganondorf definitely needs to be a tad faster. I'd rather he kept his slow walking pace but gain a fast running pace and have those surprisingly fast attacks he's a bit known for. And he feels a little more true to him by looking like a weathered and bitter old man (in terms of his idles and facial expressions.

Ganondorf already hits like a truck...why does he need to go fast? Plus he's already got plenty of quick attacks as well.

 

[Codaption]

The only character that doesn't clap in Smash is Jigglypuff and that's because she physically cant.

As a Jigglypuff main, I will concede that this is true.

Though, you're forgetting the Ice Climbers from previous games.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

As a Jigglypuff main, I will concede that this is true.

Though, you're forgetting the Ice Climbers from previous games.

Mewtwo as well.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

And are we seriously complaining about him clapping on the results screen now? Seriously? The only character that doesn't clap in Smash is Jigglypuff and that's because she physically cant.



Ganondorf already hits like a truck...why does he need to go fast? Plus he's already got plenty of quick attacks as well.

Call it complaining or whatever, Ganondorf is just shamefully represented in smash, I just wanted to point out that even on the small things like the losing animation they get his character wrong. Most people look at the moveset (as they should as its the main focus of the game) but I look at the characters as a "complete package" individually so to speak.

And in Smash 4 especially seeing how "alive" and fleshed out Pac-Man, Mega-Man, Palutena, Robin etc. are with move sets and over all animations and refrences to their own games across the board it just "rubs it even deeper" that the fact is Ganondorf is really over looked and very little effort goes into him in each game (most effort given to him was actually in Brawl surprisingly). Only thing going for Ganon is the Beast ganon FS, Sword taunt + Sword custom, the scar on his chest, F-tilt and Flame Choke (as it fits him a lot) but in the flip side nothing else is really "there". They even messed up his whole design.

So yeah I'm might be complaining but I'm more sad/disappointed than angry about it... I got used to the disappointment (unfortunately)

 

[Enderwoman]

Call it complaining or whatever, Ganondorf is just shamefully represented in smash, I just wanted to point out that even on the small things like the losing animation they get his character wrong.

Yes...reiterate the same point you've been making this whole time.

I don't see how Ganondorf ****in' clapping of all things is wrong, you could argue its "wrong" for many characters but that's what characters do on the results screen, they clap for the winner. Ganondorf is clapping like literally every other character! (except Jigglypuff) truly sakurai has committed a sin!

They even messed up his whole design

...how? Its exactly the same as it was in Brawl and TP minus a bigger scar and tattered cape.

I get the feeling Ganondorf was mostly an afterthought in Smash 4, that would explain why he's the same and his model is somewhat unfinished. I'm scared he might get flat out cut in the next game, but I've got an entire console generation to worry about that, lol.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Yes...reiterate the same point you've been making this whole time.

I don't see how Ganondorf ****in' clapping of all things is wrong, you could argue its "wrong" for many characters but that's what characters do on the results screen, they clap for the winner. Ganondorf is clapping like literally every other character! (except Jigglypuff) truly sakurai has committed a sin!



...how? Its exactly the same as it was in Brawl and TP minus a bigger scar and tattered cape.

I get the feeling Ganondorf was mostly an afterthought in Smash 4, that would explain why he's the same and his model is somewhat unfinished. I'm scared he might get flat out cut in the next game, but I've got an entire console generation to worry about that, lol.

Hey man watch the "language" please... you are coming off aggressive. Not appreciated!

Also it's Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers and Mewtwo (in whatever game their in) that don't clap. Also it's not the clapping "per say" he could clap but have it be "in character" I cant recall in Smash4 but in Brawl for example Bowser is clapping very "sarcastic like", slowly while rolling his eyes. Stuff like that just shows extra thought and detail went into making those characters. Ganon obviously character in Smash lacks that kind of attention for the small stuff (and bigger stuff is already known). I was just pointing out stuff I noticed that bothers me and most pay do not even pay attention to.

Also I'll refer you to this thread regarding Ganondorf's model: http://smashboards.com/threads/ganondorfs-model-is-unfinished.381441/

And his face/head proportions are wrong to the TP design Chin, Jaw, forehead areas especially and his eyes are WAY too big...

 

[Enderwoman]

Hey man watch the "language" please... you are coming off aggressive. Not appreciated!

Also it's Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers and Mewtwo (in whatever game their in) that don't clap. Also it's not the clapping "per say" he could clap but have it be "in character" I cant recall in Smash4 but in Brawl for example Bowser is clapping very "sarcastic like", slowly while rolling his eyes. Stuff like that just shows extra thought and detail went into making those characters. Ganon obviously character in Smash lacks that kind of attention for the small stuff (and bigger stuff is already known). I was just pointing out stuff I noticed that bothers me and most pay do not even pay attention to.

Also I'll refer you to this thread regarding Ganondorf's model: http://smashboards.com/threads/ganondorfs-model-is-unfinished.381441/

And his face/head proportions are wrong to the TP design Chin, Jaw, forehead areas especially and his eyes are WAY too big...

I looked at Bowser's Brawl clapping animation and it doesn't look sarcastic at all, his eyes don't even look like they're rolling. It just looks like the angle Bowser is placed at.

He still looks the same to me, it just seems like his design was changed to fit Smash 4's more cartoony art style.

No offense dude but at this point you're picking apart the most miniscule details, lol

And if anything they got Bowser's personality worse than Ganondorf...

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I looked at Bowser's Brawl clapping animation and it doesn't look sarcastic at all, his eyes don't even look like they're rolling. It just looks like the angle Bowser is placed at.

He still looks the same to me, it just seems like his design was changed to fit Smash 4's more cartoony art style.

No offense dude but at this point you're picking apart the most miniscule details, lol

And if anything they got Bowser's personality worse than Ganondorf...

No offense taken I do analyse things very deeply and notice oddities and inconsistencies very easily (which is actually a good quality for my profession).

Also why shouldn't I point out something that I believe is/was done poorly? I said it and moved on, you're the one who brought me back into it... And minuscule or not, this is a discussion board it isn't like I'm spamming stuff nor am I trolling, my points (small or big) relate to the topic at hand.

Also I don't understand why my nitpicking is bothering you? As I said before it's just something else I noticed that I thought could've been done better to even flesh the character (or other characters as well) more. Now let's please drop it and be freinds, ok? Cool

Maybe the Bowser losing animation I'm talking about is in PM... I haven't touched Brawl (well except the CD) since '09. I figured Bowser's losing animation there wasn't changed, my mistake if that is the case...

He looks more cartoony yes that's a huge issue for a character that is an evil tyrant who murders people... WW was cartoony but Ganon was still scary/menacing. I I at don't get why they meesed with his Brawl design it's superior to Smash4's in every way. And did you look at that in game model... His eyebrows aren't even attached to his forehead, Yeesh!

I agree Bowser also got the shaft in certain areas but no where as near to the amount Ganon does/did.

 

[warriorman222]

Mewtwo as well.

Squirtle too. vBrawl Diddy. Also mention that Kirby isn't clapping. He has two modestly large tumors that get active in times of excitement, and try to attract each other to no avail.


But would it be hard to give Dorf unique moveset and give his current one to Black Shadow? Or is it really that bad?

 

[Codaption]

Squirtle too. vBrawl Diddy. Also mention that Kirby isn't clapping. He has two modestly large tumors that get active in times of excitement, and try to attract each other to no avail.


But would it be hard to give Dorf unique moveset and give his current one to Black Shadow? Or is it really that bad?

The problem with that is that (as I said a ways back) Black Shadow is an obscure character in an obscure series. C. Falcon of the series in question got in because he's an important face in gaming, whereas Black Shadow....isn't. Simply put, nobody knows who Black Shadow is, heck, the only reason I know him is because of this arguement for his inclusion.

Plus, somebody else mentioned how a new model would have to be created in the event that they took this course of action. That's generally not a very worthwhile thing to do with a clone, and with the exception of Tink that sort of effort is rarely seen in such cases.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

The problem with that is that (as I said a ways back) Black Shadow is an obscure character in an obscure series. C. Falcon of the series in question got in because he's an important face in gaming, whereas Black Shadow....isn't. Simply put, nobody knows who Black Shadow is, heck, the only reason I know him is because of this arguement for his inclusion.
.

Didn't stop Lucas from being in Brawl as part of the finalized roster before his game was even released.

 

[warriorman222]

Didn't stop Lucas from being in Brawl as part of the finalized roster before his game was even released.

Or Roy, who debuted in Smash. Or Marth and Jigs, who nobody in the West knew.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Or Roy, who debuted in Smash. Or Marth and Jigs, who nobody in the West knew.

Jiggs was pretty iconic at the time due to the anime and Marth was heavily requested over in Japan, so they are not really comparable to Lucas.

No, the real thing that hurts Black Shadow's chances of being in a Smash game is due to the fact that F-Zero has no new game to advertise. Sakurai even said that characters from franchises without an upcoming game have an overwhelming disadvantage. Remember that Captain Falcon himself was obscure at the time of Smash 64.

 

[Codaption]

Didn't stop Lucas from being in Brawl as part of the finalized roster before his game was even released.

Fair point.

EDIT: But wait! Silly me, I forgot a thing.

Lucas is a rather weird case, y'see. His finalized game was supposed to have come out LONG before Brawl, and even Melee. To quote the Earthbound Wiki:

"The title began as a project titled "EarthBound 64", a direct sequel to the Mother series' second installment, EarthBound, for the Super Nintendo Entertainment System. EarthBound 64 was in development for many years before the project was finally terminated on August 21, 2000, partially because of the Nintendo 64 Disk Drive's commercial failure. Mother 3 was announced in June 2003 during a Mother 1+2 television commercial. Although details of its development were kept secret, it has since been made known that EarthBound 64 was reworked into Mother 3."

Basically what I'm saying is that Lucas shouldn't really count, since he's such a bizarre case (he was originally planned to replace Ness in Melee, as a matter of fact).

Your point is still valid (they did the exact same thing with Roy), but I felt like rambling. Bleh.

 

[Quillion]

I think if there's any proof that Sakurai actually cares little for Zelda, it's that Toon Sheik was a tentative character for Brawl. Not Tetra, TOON SHEIK.

Could you imagine the rage if that actually came to fruition?

 

[PhantomShab]

I think if there's any proof that Sakurai actually cares little for Zelda, it's that Toon Sheik was a tentative character for Brawl. Not Tetra, TOON SHEIK.

I never really stopped to think about that until now. Zelda could have been repped with a newcomer who was literally just made up. The fact that it got as far as it did (having character data existing in the game) just disappoints me even more. Not to mention Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik 95% likely wouldn't have added anything unique to the Zelda side of the roster. This only further solidifies my belief that there'll never be a chance to get a proper Ganondorf in Smash until Sakurai steps down as the director.

Also, the reason I never gave "Toon Sheik" much thought was because I thought it was just a weird way to refer to Tetra. But thinking about it now, yeah, it was likely referring to an actual "Toon Sheik".

*sigh*

 

[Frostwraith]

We can never really prove if that was to be an actual Toon version of Sheik or actually Tetra, considering Sheik and Tetra share the same role as alter egos of Zelda.

An internal code name usually doesn't have a lot of meaning and labeling Tetra's files as "TOON_SHEIK" could be actually have been for ease of programming for the transformation move itself in regards to reading the file names.

Roy in Melee had his internal name as "EMBLEM", because that was a spot for a Fire Emblem character.

Also, if Sakurai didn't really give a **** about Zelda, I doubt he would add 5 Zelda items in this game, three of them being well-known aspects of the series and all of them being very faithful to their original games. Or the Smash Run enemies all being iconic enemies from the franchise with gameplay elements from source games recreated (like, you know, most of the character cast, including NPCs like ATs and enemies). Even Link got the jump attack now. As a Zelda fan myself, I really appreciate all the additions to the franchise's content this game brought.

The only issue with Zelda representation as of now is really Ganondorf being a Falcon semi-clone, but even so there's been some progress in giving some (even if few) moves resembling stuff he actually does in the games.

Changing Ganondorf and give him a completely new moveset would be basically require the work put into a newcomer, by coming up with a new concept, so I can see why Sakurai is hesitant in overhauling him, even though I think he's actually put thought into it. Both options have advantages and disadvantages and I think what weighs a lot is regarding resources spent in development. Overhauling Ganondorf would mean spending a lot more resources, which are limited, given he would need a new design (as in GAME design, not graphical).

You can say that Bowser and Pit got new moves and animations, or Zelda and Sheik getting new moves, or some characters got new Final Smashes, but those changes are minor compared to a complete overhaul to a moveset and don't affect the overall design of the character, which is why I think Ganondorf could at least get a small bunch of new moves, though I'm okay with him as is.

Besides, I don't think a professional man like Sakurai, who's in his 40's and already has loads of experience in video game design, would act like a childish fanboy. Even people from other companies are actually much friendlier to the competitors and are an example of civility unlike petty fanboys who have heated discussions about which console is better. This is just food for thought, of course, and not truly relevant to the topic...

 

[G-Guy]

I actually like Falcondorf the way he is now, with a few exceptions, of course.

First, the things I do like a lot:

1st) Power + Speed are okay for the Dorf. He hits like a truck but is slow. This actually gives me the illusion of him being even stronger, a truthfull rep. of the Triforce of Power.

2nd) the moves that are not directly taking from Falcon (Up smash being a single kick, Ftilt, fair, jab, flame choke)
These just look cruel and brutal. it's perfect imo

The things I don't like include:

1st) He needs his iconic projectile tennis as part of his moveset! Why not have warlock punch shoot out a rather slow moving energy ball that can be hit back and forth, increasing in speed for each time reflected?

2nd) I am not a big fan of the entire sword fighting ganon thing, but you can have him swing is sword for his fsmash and dsmash instead of just copying falcons animations

3rd) why does he still have his pierced armor from twilight princess and why doesn't he look badass like the TP costume does in hyrule warriors? Oh, and throw in his melee/OoT attire as well, that was sweet-o!

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

Sakurai should step down at this point. And no it's not because he does things I don't like in context of game development, it's because he's doing something that I don't like that is seriously affecting his health. He's brought the SSB franchise a long ways enough as is, and his health condition is not getting any better from what I understand. And personally even though Ganondorf is not getting represented completely accurate to his in-game appearances (the closest was his Melee appearance which is based on weaponless Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time), I'm not losing any sleep over a fictional character who can very realistically be portrayed any way his company wants him to be; if Nintendo themselves seriously had a problem with Ganondorf's appearance in SSB it would've been rectified by now. The only reason I really give any care about his representation being accurate is that the fans don't tear themselves, each other, and Nintendo up over something that I honestly can't see having any significance on most anyone outside of short-lived entertainment that people generally grow out of (and I'm being brutally honest here). The producers and the consumers have always had a bit of a one-sided relationship with each other and I'm not getting caught up in any of that crap.

In all honesty though, if I was the one in charge of Super Smash Bros. things could probably be much more different (I'd freaking turn Super Smash Bros. into its own console system for starters). But I'm not, and I'm not going to try to tell someone else how to do their job when it comes to entertainment as if I objectively know better than them.

 

[Frostwraith]

Sakurai should step down at this point. And no it's not because he does things I don't like in context of game development, it's because he's doing something that I don't like that is seriously affecting his health. He's brought the SSB franchise a long ways enough as is, and his health condition is not getting any better from what I understand. And personally even though Ganondorf is not getting represented completely accurate to his in-game appearances (the closest was his Melee appearance which is based on weaponless Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time), I'm not losing any sleep over a fictional character who can very realistically be portrayed any way his company wants him to be; if Nintendo themselves seriously had a problem with Ganondorf's appearance in SSB it would've been rectified by now. The only reason I really give any care about his representation being accurate is that the fans don't tear themselves, each other, and Nintendo up over something that I honestly can't see having any significance on most anyone outside of short-lived entertainment that people generally grow out of (and I'm being brutally honest here). The producers and the consumers have always had a bit of a one-sided relationship with each other and I'm not getting caught up in any of that crap.

In all honesty though, if I was the one in charge of Super Smash Bros. things could probably be much more different (I'd freaking turn Super Smash Bros. into its own console system for starters). But I'm not, and I'm not going to try to tell someone else how to do their job when it comes to entertainment as if I objectively know better than them.

I can agree with Sakurai stepping down for health issues, as he shouldn't overexert himself like he did with this game. Though I don't think he should completely stay away from the series but find a successor to take the reigns of the series, kind of like how Miyamoto eventually handed over some of his creations to other people within Nintendo, while still maintaining some supervision.

About Ganondorf's portrayal in the Smash series, it's been clear that Nintendo doesn't mind it because otherwise things would have changed a lot more by now. Disregarding the semi-cloned moveset, he still keeps the general traits like super strength, darkness and evilness. He does have a villainous role in Brawl's story mode alongside the other big Nintendo villain, Bowser, and has his trademark evil laugh as a taunt and as a win pose.

I'm pretty sure that if Sakurai had gone crazy and gave him powers like shooting rainbows, pink hearts or cute kittens, I'm pretty sure that Nintendo would have said a big fat no to that portrayal.

Heck, even Eiji Aonuma himself has stated this regarding Ganondorf (and other Zelda characters) in Brawl:

GI: Have you been consulted at all for the usage of Link or Sheik or Ganondorf for Smash Bros. Brawl?

Aonuma: I’ve been working with Sakurai for a very long time with this new Smash Bros., because the Wii came out and when discussion for a new Smash Bros. took place nobody could think of anyone other than Sakurai working on it. He was kind of the default, and I was very happy to hear that he would be working on it. Actually, my designers did work on the designs for Sheik and Link and Ganondorf. So they submitted the initial designs, and so it would fit in the Smash Bros. Brawl environment, they’ve had to tweak some of the designs. But Sakurai has brought those altered designs to NCL. We’re working very closely with the team of Smash Bros. Brawl to make sure the characters look their best.

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20070818...com/News/Story/200708/N07.0802.1741.54921.htm

The man in charge of the Zelda series seems to be okay with Ganondorf as he is in Smash. And he's the man who pretty much created Ganondorf (as in, Ganon's humanoid form).

Sure, I still would like it if Ganondorf was given more unique moves resembling stuff he does in the Zelda games and (was more differentiated from Falcon as a result). Nothing can really go wrong with that and it would be a win-win situation if done well, but if the character's creator is okay with that, I think there's not really a huge problem as there seems to be.

Knowing myself, I know that if I gave permission to somebody else to use my creations, I would impose restrictions, telling what is okay and what is not, so from my perspective, if the creators deem someone else's portrayal of their own creations as okay, I believe it's because it fits their own vision, therefore existing no major issue with such differences.

Of course, this is my opinion as a defender of artistic freedom. You are free to agree or disagree with it.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

I can agree with Sakurai stepping down for health issues, as he shouldn't overexert himself like he did with this game. Though I don't think he should completely stay away from the series but find a successor to take the reigns of the series, kind of like how Miyamoto eventually handed over some of his creations to other people within Nintendo, while still maintaining some supervision.

I agree that he should have a successor in mind if he plans on passing the torch to someone else, but if not the maybe Nintendo will find someone who they deem credible enough. Yet I'm not sure if he should deal with Super Smash Bros. anymore all things considered. It seems too stressful at this point in time especially for someone who's been working on it since the beginning.

About Ganondorf's portrayal in the Smash series, it's been clear that Nintendo doesn't mind it because otherwise things would have changed a lot more by now. Disregarding the semi-cloned moveset, he still keeps the general traits like super strength, darkness and evilness. He does have a villainous role in Brawl's story mode alongside the other big Nintendo villain, Bowser, and has his trademark evil laugh as a taunt and as a win pose.

He still has some polishing up to do but he's not that ungodly far off the mark like many people are saying. The way I see it he's a fair bit closer to his Ocarina of Time incarnation where he fought with no weapons (people keep bringing up Ganon but Ganon and Ganondorf had two completely different fighting styles no matter how hard they keep pushing the dual-wielding Ganon argument). As I had said before the best way I believe to represent his moveset would be if it was split into three equal (as close as it can be equal) thirds between swordsmanship (either single wielding or dual wielding, preferably the latter), mystokinesis (a compilation of the many types of magic he has used, not just darkness), and unarmed martial arts (a broad term in this sense).

I'm pretty sure that if Sakurai had gone crazy and gave him powers like shooting rainbows, pink hearts or cute kittens, I'm pretty sure that Nintendo would have said a big fat no to that portrayal.

Now THAT is something I find a little sudden if Sakurai up and did that, but only if Nintendo actually a problem with it would I even care. Ganondorf is their property and if I don't like it I will simply say so and why and accept that this is how they envision the character instead of furiously demanding a change for something fictional I have no rights over to accommodate my personal tastes.

Heck, even Eiji Aonuma himself has stated this regarding Ganondorf (and other Zelda characters) in Brawl:

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20070818...com/News/Story/200708/N07.0802.1741.54921.htm

The man in charge of the Zelda series seems to be okay with Ganondorf as he is in Smash. And he's the man who pretty much created Ganondorf (as in, Ganon's humanoid form).

That's an interesting read, though I am getting the impression that Eiji Aonuma is strictly talking about the character models rather than their movesets. But then again, if her ever had a problem with "Falcondorf" (God knows how much I hate that buzzword) I am inclined to believe that he would have done something about it. Alas, I don't see anything of the sort so I'm inclined to believe that he's pretty chill towards it.

Sure, I still would like it if Ganondorf was given more unique moves resembling stuff he does in the Zelda games and (was more differentiated from Falcon as a result). Nothing can really go wrong with that and it would be a win-win situation if done well, but if the character's creator is okay with that, I think there's not really a huge problem as there seems to be.

I daresay that Ganondorf would be the one of the only swordsmen in that case where people wouldn't cry foul at another swordsman being added to Super Smash Bros. (seriously, what's next? Too many gun-users? Too many females?) Plus, some people often complain about every little thing that doesn't go exactly the way they wanted (which is all of the time); ignore them and you're labeled as someone who doesn't care about the fanbase, listen to them and you risk being labeled a suck-up/arse-kisser and with you listening to them they'll ask for more whether or not you can deliver. I've seen that happen way too many times for my liking and I try to avoid speaking ill about the fandom to keep from sliding off the slippery slope into the Accentuate the Negative trope (that's happened to me once already in the past) but this is getting a bit out of hand and it's starting to get to me. I've literally just got through three threads on another site (I'm not giving any names) dedicated to calling Sakurai a sycophant for bringing Mewtwo back for "spoiled manbabies" and another dozen or so with character requests from just about everywhere mixed with calling Sakurai's intelligence into question over one or two characters. Trust me when I say this, you give this fandom something they want and they'll very likely ask for more things in response or find something else to complain about. Not everyone is like that but there's too much garbage cluttering the whole thing up.

Knowing myself, I know that if I gave permission to somebody else to use my creations, I would impose restrictions, telling what is okay and what is not, so from my perspective, if the creators deem someone else's portrayal of their own creations as okay, I believe it's because it fits their own vision, therefore existing no major issue with such differences.

The fandom has proven time and time again that what they want does not always match up with what the creators want. I never really see entertainment being strictly marketed towards a very specific audience but rather taken from the creator's imagination and put out for whoever's interested or to portray some elements of real life. There are exceptions out there but that's how I generally see entertainment. And I can't bring myself to give way to anger over entertainment when something else more relevant to my living conditions in my life is more deserving of any particular ire. If the creator is okay with their properties being portrayed either by them or someone else then I have no problems, whether or not I like their works in the first place is irrelevant. The only exception is when entertainment falsely portrays real life and attempts to act like it's fact when it's not.

Of course, this is my opinion as a defender of artistic freedom. You are free to agree or disagree with it.

I very much agree with you. Just like how the creator is free to do whatever they want, they should be aware of how people may react to their works though. They shouldn't let it be the absolute determining factor dictating everything they do but should expect consequences for everything they do. And people are free to take what's given to them or leave it. Unless they actually control the entertainment and the producers themselves it would be preferable for them to stop acting like they do (whatever unspoken societal hierarchy there is between producer and consumer be damned, seriously, screw "The customer is always right"). No one is forcing them against their will to just accept whatever is in front of them and some act like Sakurai is going out of his way to deliberately and personally piss them off. If people feel like that I have no idea what to tell them other than to go somewhere else.

To get back on topic somewhat (excuse the rant) I have something of a folder I keep on my PC detailing some things i'd do if I had complete freedom over Super Smash Bros., and I'm barely making a Ganondorf moveset that I believe would fit him well (although Fire Emblem has my attention for the time being). I should probably have the Ganondorf moveset finished by the 29th if I work on him straight away. (If you want I can PM some ideas with you).

To get back completely on topic, regarding the name of this topic, I feel that people should stop saying that Ganondorf shouldn't get a unique moveset because that's clearly creating nasty rifts in the community. Whatever the reasoning is that sort of stuff is not really welcome. The fandom is splintered enough as it is (not that I see myself as a member of the fandom either way).

 

[PhantomShab]

a truthfull rep. of the Triforce of Power.

NO. No it isn't, like at all. Why do people keep saying this? Physical power and magical power are not the same thing.

And I love how nobody could reply to my "Bowser Kong" example.

 

[Mr. Blue Sky]

They shouldn't change the current Ganondorf, they should just add another iteration. The one from Wind Waker, Legend Of Zelda on NES (Ganon), and Hyrule Warriors are all great choices.

 

[Frostwraith]

And I love how nobody could reply to my "Bowser Kong" example.

"Bowser Kong" would be impossible to implement in the first place given the DK and Bowser models have different proportions and skeletons, making it impossible to simply port over the same animations. It's all about technical feasibility.

Of all last-minute clones/semi-clones in Smash history...

64:
Mario -> Luigi
Kirby -> Jigglypuff (Jigglypuff shares a bunch of attack animations with Kirby, and the model being similar to Kirby was the reason she was added instead of other Pokémon)

Of note is that Samus and Captain Falcon have some similar animations.

Melee:
Fox -> Falco
Pikachu -> Pichu
Captain Falcon -> Ganondorf
Link -> Young Link
Marth -> Roy
Mario -> Dr. Mario

Smash 4:
Mario -> Dr. Mario
Marth -> Lucina
Pit -> Dark Pit

(In Smash 4, the Dark Pit, Dr. Mario and Lucina models were made with the base animations in mind, given they were originally conceived as costume swaps.)

... there's one thing in common: the possibility of porting animations from one character model to another due to the models having similar or identical proportions and structure.

That's why Ganondorf was added as a Captain Falcon clone in Melee. His model (that is based on the Space World 2000 demo and was provided by Nintendo to Sakurai's team at HAL) was compatible with the animation set used for Falcon.

Both models are human-shaped and share a similar bone structure as a result. That's all there is to clones, that's what makes them viable additions in later stages of development.

All of this to say is that your Bowser Kong idea wouldn't even work from a technical standpoint because the models are different enough to make it unfeasible to do make Bowser as a clone of DK, unless big changes were made.

A more viable clone pair would be Peach and Zelda, for example.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

NO. No it isn't, like at all. Why do people keep saying this? Physical power and magical power are not the same thing.

The Triforce of Power simply defines great power in the Zelda series anyways, and no specifications are made whether that means physical or magical (Ganondorf already happened to be both and the former of which is represented in SSB seeing as how Ganondorf is among the most powerful characters). Saying that Ganondorf isn't faithfully represented in SSB "at all" by this point is a commonly made stretch. And judging by your "Bowser Kong" comment you must not know that much about moveset clones either. As explained before all clones had a similar physique to another. Bowser and Donkey Kong are so different you'd have to be blind to not see their starkly different proportions. It wouldn't make any sense from a technical standpoint, look extremely awkward, and far less people would be so approving of "Bowser Kong" even if they are approving of "Falcondorf" simply because the former is a ridiculous concept even in comparison to "Falcondorf". And besides, dozens of characters aren't "faithfully represented" if we're going by the "they don't have moves from their universe" argument, yet they are barely argued as much as Ganondorf because a physically attacking Ganondorf must not exist in their minds when the evidence is there. Ganondorf's also the only clone who is generally wanted to be made faithful rather than outright scrapped which says something about the fandom to me.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

All of this to say is that your Bowser Kong idea wouldn't even work from a technical standpoint because the models are different enough to make one a clone of other, unless big changes were made.

Is this supposed to be a typo? I'm not sure if I'm reading that part right. Either way, I'm officially done with this thread.

 

[Frostwraith]

Is this supposed to be a typo? I'm not sure if I'm reading that part right. Either way, I'm officially done with this thread.

That's what happens when I write longer posts late night...

Yeah, it's a bit ambiguous. I'll change it.

 

[Quillion]

Why don't we spam the Smash Fighter ballot for a Sword/Trident/just more faithful Ganondorf here?

I think the Smash team will do anything if we request it enough, and animating Ganondorf with a sword won't be that much work compared to completely modeling and animating a character.

I specifically said "Sword Ganondorf" BTW, but you can vote "Trident" if you want.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

Why don't we spam the Smash Fighter ballot for a Sword/Trident/just more faithful Ganondorf here?

I think the Smash team will do anything if we request it enough, and animating Ganondorf with a sword won't be that much work compared to completely modeling and animating a character.

I specifically said "Sword Ganondorf" BTW, but you can vote "Trident" if you want.

Swordfighter Ganondorf is only slightly more faithful than brawler Ganondorf (and tridentfighter Ganondorf isn't faithful at all). And we all know that the ballots will be spammed with Ridley. At this point we're not even arguing about faithful representation are we.

...Okay, NOW I'm officially done with this thread.

 

[Quillion]

Swordfighter Ganondorf is only slightly more faithful than brawler Ganondorf (and tridentfighter Ganondorf isn't faithful at all). And we all know that the ballots will be spammed with Ridley. At this point we're not even arguing about faithful representation are we.

...Okay, NOW I'm officially done with this thread.

Any small step is good in my book (unless they intentionally troll and make him an Ike clone or something).

 

[Piedro]

ARGH! I cant decide what to suggest.
Decloned Dorf or Shovel Knight!

 

[Quillion]

ARGH! I cant decide what to suggest.
Decloned Dorf or Shovel Knight!

I'd personally go with a first party character before a third party.