The King of Klones (the Ganon character design thread)

[PhantomShab]

The way I see it, anybody who could support Falcondorf could also support Bowser Kong. Now just imagine if Bowser was added in Melee as a Donkey Kong clone, with the same specials, smashes, throws, etc. Using the same logic that Falcondorf supporters use, Bowser Kong is totally fitting and represents the character perfectly. Bowser is big and powerful just like Donkey Kong, so it would be totally in-character for him to bongo slap the ground and use his gorilla turtle arms to spin like a helicopter, right? Nothing about it looks unfitting for Bowser at all, using this logic. Flacondorf logic means Bowser Kong is a perfect fit for such a big and strong character, right?

Yeah, wrong. People would immediately call Sakurai out for doing that to the biggest villain in Nintendo's biggest franchise, even though giving Bowser a broken back and roller skates was pretty stupid too. So why is it somehow just fine for it to happen to Nintendo's other biggest villain? Would those that shill for Ganondorf being a lazy Captain Falcon clone with basically nothing that represents his canon abilities also shill for Bowser getting the same treatment, just with the DNA for the cloning process coming from DK instead of Falcon? Falcondorf supporters should logically only be able to vote "yes", or risk looking hypocritical. The exact same reasoning is being used here that's used for defending Falcondorf, after all.

God, I wish Ganondorf was never added to Melee.

 

[Quillion]

Something I'm kinda shocked about is that we don't seem to be loud enough with how much displeasure we have at Falcondorf.

I mean, how come there isn't any interviewer who asks why Ganondorf is still derivative of Falcon? How can we make our rage at Falcondorf known? Do we need to be louder?

 

[Piedro]

Something I'm kinda shocked about is that we don't seem to be loud enough with how much displeasure we have at Falcondorf.

I mean, how come there isn't any interviewer who asks why Ganondorf is still derivative of Falcon? How can we make our rage at Falcondorf known? Do we need to be louder?

Sadly this is internet so we cannot compare written text to spoken words.

 

[PhantomShab]

I mean, how come there isn't any interviewer who asks why Ganondorf is still derivative of Falcon?

You know, that's actually a very good question. Especially since the subject of clones has come up in multiple interviews with Sakurai.

 

[Piedro]

You know, that's actually a very good question. Especially since the subject of clones has come up in multiple interviews with Sakurai.

Maybe because they expect to get the same answer as always. "I don't want to alienate anyone. blah, blah, blah"

 

[I_hate_usernames]

I don't understand the whole "It'll alienate ppl" stance.

A revamped moveset doesn't mean that he's going to lose his "absolute powerhouse" stance that he has currently, and will only serve to give him more options and playstyles as opposed to him just be a reactionary Cpt. Falcon like he is now.

And even if that isn't good enough, you could always use, you know, Cpt. Falcon...

 

[Quillion]

Sadly this is internet so we cannot compare written text to spoken words.

Well Ridley fans are pretty loud (or "vocal", if you prefer) to the point that Sakurai did acknowledge them. But he won't acknowledge us anti-Falcondorf fans at all.

 

[PhantomShab]

Maybe because they expect to get the same answer as always. "I don't want to alienate anyone. blah, blah, blah"

I doubt Sakurai cares about people feeling alienated. He had no problems whatsoever with alienating the competitive Smash crowd with Brawl. He also had no problems giving Bowser and Pit the overhauls they got.

No matter how I try to add it up in my head, I always come to the same conclusion. Sakurai doesn't care.

 

[Piedro]

I doubt Sakurai cares about people feeling alienated. He had no problems whatsoever with alienating the competitive Smash crowd with Brawl. He also had no problems giving Bowser and Pit the overhauls they got.

No matter how I try to add it up in my head, I always come to the same conclusion. Sakurai doesn't care.

I do believe that these Bowser/ Pit changes were minor- we are asking for a complete moveset overhaul.
(Don't flame me i only judged the changes from the video footage. Never played brawl.)

 

[Frostwraith]

Bowser and Pit's changes for this game are nowhere near the same caliber as what people are suggesting for Ganondorf. Same goes for Mario's changes from Melee to Brawl.

Bowser had mostly some animation changes to be more similar to his modern self along with a few new moves, which is a similar treatment to what Ganondorf had in the transition from Melee to Brawl. Most of Ganondorf's animations were changed from copy-pasted Captain Falcon animations to have a rough and unrefined brutal feel to them. Ganondorf and Captain Falcon barely have the same animations now, even though Ganondorf's moveset is still designed with a heavier, slower variant of Falcon's moveset as a basis. Falco has also undergone a similar evolution, with him slowly diverging from Fox.

As for Pit, he only got four new moves, with the rest remaining exactly the same as Brawl:
- Forward aerial is now a spinning attack instead of a stab (used to be essentially a reverse of his unchanged back aerial)
- Side special was changed (similar to what Bowser and Ganondorf from Melee to Brawl)
- Up special was changed (you can no longer fly freely but fly in a direction before turning helpless)
- Final Smash is different

Pit's down special, while changed from the Mirror Shield to Guardian Orbitars, remains essentially the same move (a reflector), just that it can now reflect projectiles from behind in addition to those coming from the front.

Zero Suit Samus a bunch of changes from Brawl to Smash 4 and, even so, she still retains a whole lot of her Brawl moveset.

Link and Donkey Kong got new running attacks (in the former's case, it ends helping him deviate more from Toon Link), Zelda and Sheik have new down specials, Kirby and Dedede got some changes as well, Charizard got a new up throw animation and a new special move, but the common denominator is the same: they overall remain the same as previous games, their movesets built under the same foundation.

What I could expect for Ganondorf is a similar progression that will slowly further deviate him from Captain Falcon, but his moveset's foundation will likely remain the same.

I think Ganondorf will have more changes when more new titles featuring him are released. This is based on precedence, as most of the new moves characters usually get are based on games released in-between Smash titles. To wit:

Spoiler

Transition from Melee to Brawl:
- Mario: FLUDD from Super Mario Sunshine
- Ganondorf: Few hand-to-hand moves (notably, side special and side A) and Beast Ganon Final Smash from Twilight Princess

Transition from Brawl to Smash Wii U / 3DS:
- Bowser: New stance and some new animations based on recent Mario games
- Luigi: Poltergust 5000 from Luigi's Mansion 2
- Pit: Weapons from Kid Icarus: Uprising
- Kirby: Ultra Sword from Kirby's Return to Dream Land
- Zelda: Phantom from Zelda: Spirit Tracks
- Olimar: Flying Pikmin from Pikmin 3
- Charizard and Lucario: Mega Evolutions from Pokémon X / Y

EDIT: Check this video.

It's the boss battle against Ganondorf in Twilight Princess. Pay attention to his movements, especially when he does hand-to-hand combat. Compare them side-by-side with his Brawl/Smash 4 animations. You will notice a sense of familiarity that makes me think that, while Sakurai and the development team still designed him as a slower, heavier Falcon variant, they did pay attention to the animation work done in Twilight Princess, essentially establishing something of a middle ground between his fighting style from Melee (cloned from Captain Falcon) and his fighting style from Twilight Princess.

Not an ideal solution, but it shows that research was actually done on the character when doing his overhaul for Brawl, which is why I am not too opposed to his current moveset.

Don't get me wrong, though, I would like see him further change, but I'm okay with him as is. Looking at him in Melee nowadays is a bit jarring, though still understandable, given his last minute addition.

 

[Quillion]

Bowser and Pit's changes for this game are nowhere near the same caliber as what people are suggesting for Ganondorf. Same goes for Mario's changes from Melee to Brawl.

Bowser had mostly some animation changes to be more similar to his modern self along with a few new moves, which is a similar treatment to what Ganondorf had in the transition from Melee to Brawl. Most of Ganondorf's animations were changed from copy-pasted Captain Falcon animations to have a rough and unrefined brutal feel to them. Ganondorf and Captain Falcon barely have the same animations now, even though Ganondorf's moveset is still designed with a heavier, slower variant of Falcon's moveset as a basis. Falco has also undergone a similar evolution, with him slowly diverging from Fox.

As for Pit, he only got four new moves, with the rest remaining exactly the same as Brawl:
- Forward aerial is now a spinning attack instead of a stab (used to be essentially a reverse of his unchanged back aerial)
- Side special was changed (similar to what Bowser and Ganondorf from Melee to Brawl)
- Up special was changed (you can no longer fly freely but fly in a direction before turning helpless)
- Final Smash is different

Pit's down special, while changed from the Mirror Shield to Guardian Orbitars, remains essentially the same move (a reflector), just that it can now reflect projectiles from behind in addition to those coming from the front.

Zero Suit Samus a bunch of changes from Brawl to Smash 4 and, even so, she still retains a whole lot of her Brawl moveset.

Link and Donkey Kong got new running attacks (in the former's case, it ends helping him deviate more from Toon Link), Zelda and Sheik have new down specials, Kirby and Dedede got some changes as well, Charizard got a new up throw animation and a new special move, but the common denominator is the same: they overall remain the same as previous games, their movesets built under the same foundation.

What I could expect for Ganondorf is a similar progression that will slowly further deviate him from Captain Falcon, but his moveset's foundation will likely remain the same.

I think Ganondorf will have more changes when more new titles featuring him are released. This is based on precedence, as most of the new moves characters usually get are based on games released in-between Smash titles. To wit:

Spoiler

Transition from Melee to Brawl:
- Mario: FLUDD from Super Mario Sunshine
- Ganondorf: Few hand-to-hand moves (notably, side special and side A) and Beast Ganon Final Smash from Twilight Princess

Transition from Brawl to Smash Wii U / 3DS:
- Bowser: New stance and some new animations based on recent Mario games
- Luigi: Poltergust 5000 from Luigi's Mansion 2
- Pit: Weapons from Kid Icarus: Uprising
- Kirby: Ultra Sword from Kirby's Return to Dream Land
- Zelda: Phantom from Zelda: Spirit Tracks
- Olimar: Flying Pikmin from Pikmin 3
- Charizard and Lucario: Mega Evolutions from Pokémon X / Y

EDIT: Check this video.

It's the boss battle against Ganondorf in Twilight Princess. Pay attention to his movements, especially when he does hand-to-hand combat. Compare them side-by-side with his Brawl/Smash 4 animations. You will notice a sense of familiarity that makes me think that, while Sakurai and the development team still designed him as a slower, heavier Falcon variant, they did pay attention to the animation work done in Twilight Princess, essentially establishing something of a middle ground between his fighting style from Melee (cloned from Captain Falcon) and his fighting style from Twilight Princess.

Not an ideal solution, but it shows that research was actually done on the character when doing his overhaul for Brawl, which is why I am not too opposed to his current moveset.

Don't get me wrong, though, I would like see him further change, but I'm okay with him as is. Looking at him in Melee nowadays is a bit jarring, though still understandable, given his last minute addition.

In the words of Relax Alax, the ONE MOVE they got right was the forward tilt. And even then his hand-to-hand moves that he mixes into his sword fighting in TP are only meant to stagger Link, not to hurt him, so they're picked the lamest moves to draw from TP.

Would it kill them to at least make his normals a mix of punching/kicking and swords like it usually is (even in TP)? Like maybe just make his jab, F-smash, F-air, maybe U-smash into sword normals. That's only three; not a big change.

 

[Frostwraith]

In the words of Relax Alax, the ONE MOVE they got right was the forward tilt. And even then his hand-to-hand moves that he mixes into his sword fighting in TP are only meant to stagger Link, not to hurt him, so they're picked the lamest moves to draw from TP.

Would it kill them to at least make his normals a mix of punching/kicking and swords like it usually is (even in TP)? Like maybe just make his jab, F-smash, F-air, maybe U-smash into sword normals. That's only three; not a big change.

Yeah, I would have also liked some sword moves thrown into his moveset. His neutral A, forward Smash or running attack would have been good moves to have moves directly from Twilight Princess.

It feels like they wanted to keep him on the same foundation as his Melee self and not deviate too much from that, but at the same time they did overhaul the animations with a similar feel as his moves from Twilight Princess, so it ends up being a sort of middle point between obvious stat-edited Captain Falcon like in Melee and his Twilight Princess self.

For example, that attack when he stabs with the sword is very similar to, and possibly inspired, his current neutral A move. The motion is very similar, if not identical. The only difference is that in one case, he has a sword and stabs with it; on the other, he has no sword and delivers a thunder magic-powered palm. (Thinking about it, this is essentially replacing the sword with magic, another thing Ganondorf is known for.)

The running attack could have been the same as that running attack he does in Twilight Princess. The running animation could have been the same as well. The forward Smash could involve him stabbing the sword with more strength and perhaps some dark magic added to it.

Replacing some of his punching moves with sword maneuvers could actually end up buffing those moves by giving more range to them...

Overall, I think it was still a step in the right direction, but my best guess is that they were too reluctant to give a lot of changes, being insistent in keeping some of the status quo.

And apparently, in Brawl's development, it was the Zelda series producer, Eiji Aonuma, that provided the models of the Zelda characters for the Smash development team, so I'd guess the Zelda team isn't too bothered with Ganondorf's portrayal in Smash... And that got me curious on what exactly could be Aonuma's thoughts on this matter, since he's been overseeing the Zelda series for a long time.

 

[PhantomShab]

Most of Ganondorf's animations were changed from copy-pasted Captain Falcon animations to have a rough and unrefined brutal feel to them. Ganondorf and Captain Falcon barely have the same animations now

Ganondorf has the same animations as Captain Falcon for his...
U-Special
D-Special
Dash Attack
F-Smash
D-Smash
U-Tilt (only slowed down by infinity)
N-Air
U-Air
B-Air
D-Air
U-Throw
D-Throw
F-Throw
B-Throw
Grab Pummel

"Barley has the same animations."

Yeah...no.

I think Ganondorf will have more changes when more new titles featuring him are released.

Why should we have to wait for Ganondorf to be in a new Zelda game for him to get a proper moveset when there's already so much that can be pulled from? Do we have to bank on him being in Zelda U for him getting something even resembling a freaking projectile, at the very least?

EDIT: Check this video.

It's the boss battle against Ganondorf in Twilight Princess. Pay attention to his movements, especially when he does hand-to-hand combat. Compare them side-by-side with his Brawl/Smash 4 animations. You will notice a sense of familiarity that makes me think that, while Sakurai and the development team still designed him as a slower, heavier Falcon variant, they did pay attention to the animation work done in Twilight Princess, essentially establishing something of a middle ground between his fighting style from Melee (cloned from Captain Falcon) and his fighting style from Twilight Princess.

I'm well aware of this argument always being brought up to defend Falcondorf. Whether or nor Sakurai paid attention to small one-off instances of Ganondorf punching and kicking doesn't cut it for me. Ganondorf deserves better than that.

Don't get me wrong, though, I would like see him further change, but I'm okay with him as is. Looking at him in Melee nowadays is a bit jarring, though still understandable, given his last minute addition.

I honestly wish he was never added in Melee to begin with. Hell, the fact that Bowser was added in from the start and Ganondorf being (until the very last second) literally no priority tells me a lot about how Sakurai thinks of the character. But no, let's just inflate Melee's already finished roster because quantity=quality. Maybe if Ganondorf debuted in Brawl, he would be something more than just Captain Falcon's grandpa.

 

[Frostwraith]

Ganondorf has the same animations as Captain Falcon for his...
U-Special
D-Special
Dash Attack
F-Smash
D-Smash
U-Tilt (only slowed down by infinity)
N-Air
U-Air
B-Air
D-Air
U-Throw
D-Throw
F-Throw
B-Throw
Grab Pummel

"Barley has the same animations."

Yeah...no.

Similar =/= same. You're misusing both terms.

Yeah, a lot of those animations have similarities, as the attacks are still based on Falcon, however, some details in the animations differ when compared side by side.

The following moves actually have different animations, even though they are similar by virtue of being similar moves:
Up special, Neutral aerial, Down aerial, Up aerial, Down Smash

Still, my point remains in the sense that he no longer is merely copy and pasted from Falcon in regards to animation work and has some resemblance to his fighting style in Twilight Princess, just without the sword. This is a fact.

Why should we have to wait for Ganondorf to be in a new Zelda game for him to get a proper moveset when there's already so much that can be pulled from? Do we have to bank on him being in Zelda U for him getting something even resembling a freaking projectile, at the very least?

I was using precedence as a means to tell when could be a good time to expect a new revamp for Ganondorf.

Thing is, Ganondorf didn't get any new game since Brawl (remakes don't count) and all of the characters changed for this game were all changed by adding elements or traits from games released after Brawl.

You know, Zelda, Pit, Bowser, Zero Suit Samus, Kirby, Luigi, Charizard, Lucario and several others.

I've explained that in a previous post on this thread.

I'm well aware of this argument always being brought up to defend Falcondorf. Whether or nor Sakurai paid attention to small one-off instances of Ganondorf punching and kicking doesn't cut it for me. Ganondorf deserves better than that.

Well, I don't mind him as is. *shrugs*

Though, don't get me wrong, I would welcome some change, but overall, I'm rather indifferent about it.

And I like Ganondorf a lot, both in the Zelda series and Smash. I mean, I have played all but two Zelda games and Ganondorf is my most used character in Smash since Brawl.

I honestly wish he was never added in Melee to begin with. Hell, the fact that Bowser was added in from the start and Ganondorf being (until the very last second) literally no priority tells me a lot about how Sakurai thinks of the character. But no, let's just inflate Melee's already finished roster because quantity=quality. Maybe if Ganondorf debuted in Brawl, he would be something more than just Captain Falcon's grandpa.

Well, he did say he added Ganondorf due to popularity and preferred to have a bigger roster, even if it meant having clones.

Zelda and Sheik took priority over Ganondorf, after all. The fact Melee's development was rushed didn't help things. Ganondorf wasn't even planned for Melee, but got in due to similar body proportions as Falcon.

I can agree with you that if Ganondorf had only debuted in Brawl, he would have been different.

I don't think Sakurai hating Ganondorf is a right accusation. If he really hated the character, he likely wouldn't just put him in the game or wouldn't have paid attention to some details during his overhaul in Brawl. He doesn't strike me as a sort of person would pettily hate on a video game character, considering he's a video game designer.

I do think, however, that Sakurai and his team could have taken more risks with his overhaul in Brawl. I think they wanted to change him, but felt reluctant to deviate too much from his Melee moveset, hence why I think he feels something of a middle ground between Melee and Twilight Princess in regards to fighting style.

Not an ideal solution, but still better than having almost his entire animation set copied from Falcon.

 

[Codaption]

I honestly wish he was never added in Melee to begin with. Hell, the fact that Bowser was added in from the start and Ganondorf being (until the very last second) literally no priority tells me a lot about how Sakurai thinks of the character. But no, let's just inflate Melee's already finished roster because quantity=quality. Maybe if Ganondorf debuted in Brawl, he would be something more than just Captain Falcon's grandpa.

Considering Sakurai mains Ganondorf, I'd say he cares about him a bit more than you seem to think.

Not justifying the cloniness, just pointing that out.

 

[Quillion]

Considering Sakurai mains Ganondorf...

There's no proof of this. Yes there's this video:

But AFAIK, that's no proof that he mains Falcondorf (unless someone understands Japanese to the point of understanding the vid, in which case, please translate for us non-Japanese speakers).

 

[PhantomShab]

Similar =/= same. You're misusing both terms.

Yeah, a lot of those animations have similarities, as the attacks are still based on Falcon, however, some details in the animations differ when compared side by side.

The following moves actually have different animations, even though they are similar by virtue of being similar moves:
Up special, Neutral aerial, Down aerial, Up aerial, Down Smash

Still, my point remains in the sense that he no longer is merely copy and pasted from Falcon in regards to animation work and has some resemblance to his fighting style in Twilight Princess, just without the sword. This is a fact.

What are you even talking about? I see no differences in the animations for any of the moves I listed. Oh, but he spins and swings his arm up when using his version of Falcon Dive, so please excuse me for not recalling something that small.

I was using precedence as a means to tell when could be a good time to expect a new revamp for Ganondorf.

Thing is, Ganondorf didn't get any new game since Brawl (remakes don't count) and all of the characters changed for this game were all changed by adding elements or traits from games released after Brawl.

And why don't remakes count? Remakes are what got Fox his voice in Smash 4 as well the Gerudo Valley stage for the 3DS version. Remakes have had an effect on Smash 4.

Ganondorf wasn't even planned for Melee, but got in due to similar body proportions as Falcon.

I'm well aware of this. Black Shadow could have easily have been used instead though.

I don't think Sakurai hating Ganondorf is a right accusation. If he really hated the character, he likely wouldn't just put him in the game or wouldn't have paid attention to some details during his overhaul in Brawl.

Tbh he probably only adds Ganondorf in anymore because he feels like he has to, at least I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. As for "hating", it's more like "disrespecting". He went well out of his was to portray Ganondorf as an out of shape geezer in Brawl, even flat out stating the portrayal on Brawl's Dojo site. Never mind that Ganondorf in Twilight Princess (who Brawl-Smash 4 Ganon is based on) was agile. He even ran at a dead sprint, not that dumb tired looking jog thing he does in Smash.

He doesn't strike me as a sort of person would pettily hate on a video game character, considering he's a video game designer.

He's done petty things before.

Not an ideal solution, but still better than having almost his entire animation set copied from Falcon.

Which he still does...

Considering Sakurai mains Ganondorf, I'd say he cares about him a bit more than you seem to think.

Not justifying the cloniness, just pointing that out.

Ah, a very common Smash misconception. Just because Sakurai picked Ganondorf for a single battle in Brawl doesn't mean he mains him. He's used Mega Man and Pac-Man on camera too, I guess that means he mains them. In all likeliness, he probably mains Pit, Palutena, and Dark Pit.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

I have an idea: why don't we give Ganondorf a completely faithful moveset and scrap Captain Falcon since he has nothing to draw from his games aside of race car driving?

 

[PhantomShab]

I have an idea: why don't we give Ganondorf a completely faithful moveset and scrap Captain Falcon since he has nothing to draw from his games aside of race car driving?

Or...we could just give Ganondorf an accurate moveset and not scrap Falcon.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

Or...we could just give Ganondorf an accurate moveset and not scrap Falcon.

What for? Because he's popular? The guy has next to nothing to add in Super Smash Bros. from his home series except for piloting the Blue Falcon and his ignored pistol, and I doubt people would like to have a moveset based entirely on Captain Falcon ramming into people or shooting them.

The only thing Captain Falcon has going for him is his popularity in his Super Smash Bros. appearances. If we want to maintain Super Smash Bros. giving accurate portrayals of characters then Captain Falcon has to go because his race car skill do not translate well in a fighting game at all.

 

[Frostwraith]

What are you even talking about? I see no differences in the animations for any of the moves I listed. Oh, but he spins and swings his arm up when using his version of Falcon Dive, so please excuse me for not recalling something that small.

And yet, I see some differences. The animations are similar, I'll give you that, but they aren't copy and pasted from Falcon, as in, not directly ported from Falcon's animation set.

And why don't remakes count? Remakes are what got Fox his voice in Smash 4 as well the Gerudo Valley stage for the 3DS version. Remakes have had an effect on Smash 4.

Fox's voice from Star Fox 64 is just a English version thing and a decision not made by Sakurai, but by the localization team at Nintendo of America.

The Japanese version has the same voice actors from Brawl. Heck, in the Japanese version, Falco has always had the same voice actor as the original Star Fox 64, while the English version has had a different VA per release.

I'll give you Gerudo Valley, though.

Overall, my point stands. They don't tend to look at remakes for character overhauls, but at new games.

I'm well aware of this. Black Shadow could have easily have been used instead though.

I guess, but I do think there's more to that story.

The model he has in Melee is the same one as a tech demo for the GameCube and he was the last character added. That says a lot about the circumstances of his inclusion. He was last-minute among the last-minute clones.

Sounds to me that they didn't have time to make a new model (a necessity for Black Shadow) and had no choice but to use that Ganondorf model and put Falcon's moves on him. The model worked for that and they did what was possible within the limited time and resources.

That's how game development is.

Tbh he probably only adds Ganondorf in anymore because he feels like he has to, at least I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. As for "hating", it's more like "disrespecting". He went well out of his was to portray Ganondorf as an out of shape geezer in Brawl, even flat out stating the portrayal on Brawl's Dojo site. Never mind that Ganondorf in Twilight Princess (who Brawl-Smash 4 Ganon is based on) was agile. He even ran at a dead sprint, not that dumb tired looking jog thing he does in Smash.

I don't know, Nintendo, as the owners of the Zelda IP, don't seem to mind Ganondorf's current portrayal in Smash. And you know how protective they are about their proprieties. Sakurai has stated that, while he's given some degree of freedom when it comes to designing characters, his decisions need the approval of the IP owners.

As for the running animation, I don't see what's so terrible about it. It's a bit silly, but it's not like he wasn't an old fart in Twilight Princess and he still does display agility in Smash. However, he is an heavyweight, so of course, he won't be as fast as he was originally for balancing reasons. In fact, Ike had a similar treatment, as he's more agile and faster in the Fire Emblem series than he is in Smash, where he's a heavyweight character.

Then again, I don't take fictional characters very seriously. I mean, it's just a game, so why get all emotional and angry over it?

I understand that Sakurai has flaws, but who doesn't? I still think he deserves respect despite some of the decisions made for the series (some of which I don't like either).

He's done petty things before.

Such as...?

I mean, he has trolled the fans quite a bit, but a lot of video game creators do that anyway. I know some manga artists who also troll their fans.

Ah, a very common Smash misconception. Just because Sakurai picked Ganondorf for a single battle in Brawl doesn't mean he mains him. He's used Mega Man and Pac-Man on camera too, I guess that means he mains them. In all likeliness, he probably mains Pit, Palutena, and Dark Pit.

Does Sakurai even have a main? I mean, he did design all characters and play tested them, so I feel he can use them with more or less the same efficiency...

(And nice subtle argumentum ad hominem there with your last statement... >_> Almost makes me want to not take you seriously, but I'm not petty.)

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

I understand that Sakurai has flaws, but who doesn't? I still think he deserves respect despite some of the decisions made for the series (some of which I don't like either).

You want us to say something that's not negative about Sakurai? HERESY!

 

[Frostwraith]

You want us to say something that's not negative about Sakurai? HERESY!

I defend constructive criticism and I have criticized some of his decisions.

Resorting to insults and baseless assumptions is a whole other story. Two completely different situations: one has credibility and foments good debates with sound logic, the other makes me not want to take the arguments seriously. I very much prefer a civilized conversation even if disagreements happen.

As for Ganondorf, I merely see that Sakurai could make him more unique, but he is pretty much stuck between keeping his base design as a Falcon clone, following the same path as other veterans, in which the best we'll see are gradual changes here and there as the series progresses, or do a complete overhaul and change him completely.

Both have advantages and disadvantages, so I think neither choice is inherently right or wrong.

If you consider custom moves, the differences between Falcon and Ganondorf become bigger. One of his two Warlock Punch variants have him stab with the sword and the other has him cause an explosion of darkness with bigger range (rather than just punching).

I think it's clear that Sakurai wants to diverge him from Falcon. He just doesn't want to do all changes in one go, opting for gradual changes instead, thus giving him the same treatment as the other (semi-)clones (Dr. Mario, Luigi, Falco and Toon Link).

 

[Piedro]

I agree on changes being gradual, but come on! Maybe we will be stuck with more luigified Ganondorf for how many instalments?
Yay! Proper Ganondofr for ssb 25!

 

[Enderwoman]

Well good luck with that I guess.

Just remember guys, Wario deserved better than Ganondorf in terms of movesets, according to Sakurai.

Well, he's not wrong.

Both characters made/re-made by modders for PM with limited resources (unlike the actual game makers) and besides for testers are made almost solely by themselves. And they did a heck of a job! Way better than Sakurai and his team ever did or even try to do.

I wish people would quit calling Sakurai lazy just because they don't like a thing.

 

[PhantomShab]

What for? Because he's popular? The guy has next to nothing to add in Super Smash Bros. from his home series except for piloting the Blue Falcon and his ignored pistol, and I doubt people would like to have a moveset based entirely on Captain Falcon ramming into people or shooting them.

The only thing Captain Falcon has going for him is his popularity in his Super Smash Bros. appearances. If we want to maintain Super Smash Bros. giving accurate portrayals of characters then Captain Falcon has to go because his race car skill do not translate well in a fighting game at all.

Smash Bros is about Nintendo franchises doing battle. What you want is for one of those franchises to stop being repped. That's a terrible idea. Take that idea to the Falcon boards if you're so sure it's a great idea.

And yet, I see some differences. The animations are similar, I'll give you that, but they aren't copy and pasted from Falcon, as in, not directly ported from Falcon's animation set.

What does it even matter? The same animations are the same animations, whether copy/pasted or made from scratch.

Fox's voice from Star Fox 64 is just a English version thing and a decision not made by Sakurai, but by the localization team at Nintendo of America.

The Japanese version has the same voice actors from Brawl. Heck, in the Japanese version, Falco has always had the same voice actor as the original Star Fox 64, while the English version has had a different VA per release.

I'll give you Gerudo Valley, though.

Overall, my point stands. They don't tend to look at remakes for character overhauls, but at new games.

And would the localization team have chosen the same voice actor for Fox even if Star Fox 64 didn't get a remake? And as I've said before, they're already sitting on so much untapped potential for Ganon as it is. A new game shouldn't even be needed, and you're more or less just taking a shot in the dark on that being the reason.

I guess, but I do think there's more to that story.

The model he has in Melee is the same one as a tech demo for the GameCube and he was the last character added. That says a lot about the circumstances of his inclusion. He was last-minute among the last-minute clones.

Sounds to me that they didn't have time to make a new model (a necessity for Black Shadow) and had no choice but to use that Ganondorf model and put Falcon's moves on him. The model worked for that and they did what was possible within the limited time and resources.

That's how game development is.

He should have used that last minute to polish up any bugs in the game, instead of cramming in one more clone. But nothing can be done about that now.

I don't know, Nintendo, as the owners of the Zelda IP, don't seem to mind Ganondorf's current portrayal in Smash. And you know how protective they are about their proprieties. Sakurai has stated that, while he's given some degree of freedom when it comes to designing characters, his decisions need the approval of the IP owners.

Just because they don't say anything, doesn't make it right.

As for the running animation, I don't see what's so terrible about it. It's a bit silly, but it's not like he wasn't an old fart in Twilight Princess and he still does display agility in Smash. However, he is an heavyweight, so of course, he won't be as fast as he was originally for balancing reasons. In fact, Ike had a similar treatment, as he's more agile and faster in the Fire Emblem series than he is in Smash, where he's a heavyweight character.

Bowser's the heaviest character in the game, and he can run circles around Ganondorf. Oh, and age has never slowed Ganondorf down, ever. The guy is immortal.

Then again, I don't take fictional characters very seriously. I mean, it's just a game, so why get all emotional and angry over it?

Oh don't pull that card now. There's nothing wrong with wanting to see characters you like not get shafted time and time again in an extremely popular fighting game that get's new installments only once per per console cycle. If that's how you feel, then why are even debating me on this?

Such as...?

Sabotaging your own game with things like random tripping just to spite the competitive fanbase.

(And nice subtle argumentum ad hominem there with your last statement... >_> Almost makes me want to not take you seriously, but I'm not petty.)

Not an insult. I'm absolutely positive Sakurai mains one of his KI characters. Especially Palutena, since he put in all that extra work to make sure she got special treatment. You don't do that to a character and then just not main them. lol

Well, he's not wrong.

I disagree. Wario was made to be an anti-Mario. So between him and Ganon, Wario would have been the fit for a "slower but stronger" version of a character. I'm not saying Wario should have been a clone though.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Well, he's not wrong.



I wish people would quit calling Sakurai lazy just because they don't like a thing.

He actually isn't a lazy person at all. However in some regards he is either extremely lazy (like the 95% copy paste job with Ganon from Brawl to Smash4) Or; he is extremely biased towards some of the characters and doesn't "put is all" (aka- becomes lazy) in regards to other characters or just plainly not care... which is worse imo.

Also I'll say this again, he is human, he is not perfect, however when someone like Sakurai that puts huge amounts of work toward some characters (Palutena, Pit, Bowser, Mega-Man, Pac-Man etc.) to make them very fleshed out and unique but leaves Ganondorf a sad excuse of a semi-clone yeah... I will (and others^) call him out for being lazy/biased etc...

 

[Frostwraith]

And would the localization team have chosen the same voice actor for Fox even if Star Fox 64 didn't get a remake? And as I've said before, they're already sitting on so much untapped potential for Ganon as it is. A new game shouldn't even be needed, and you're more or less just taking a shot in the dark on that being the reason.

"Taking a shot in the dark" when I did post evidence that the grand majority of changes to characters come from new, non-remake titles.

And what the localization team does has nothing to do with what Sakurai does. Two completely different teams who do completely different things in the game.

Just because they don't say anything, doesn't make it right.

If the creators of the character were really that bothered, I'm pretty sure they would have objected by now. Just saying.

And I'm pretty sure that if Sakurai had gone crazy and had Ganondorf shoot pretty flowers and cute kittens or had Pikachu acting like a feral hardcore demon, the IP owners would have objected hard and rightfully so.

Bowser's the heaviest character in the game, and he can run circles around Ganondorf. Oh, and age has never slowed Ganondorf down, ever. The guy is immortal.

Bowser isn't as strong as Ganondorf is. That's why he's faster. Ganondorf is an utter beast in regards to damage output, but that comes at a price.

Little Mac excels at ground fighting, but has horrible recovery. Jigglypuff has excellent recovery and air maneuverability, but is very light and quickly KOed.

It's called gameplay balance. A strength comes with a drawback. If Ganondorf was faster, he would risk being overpowered.

Oh don't pull that card now. There's nothing wrong with wanting to see characters you like not get shafted time and time again in an extremely popular fighting game that get's new installments only once per per console cycle. If that's how you feel, then why are even debating me on this?

Ganondorf is my favorite Zelda character and one of my favorite villains in fiction, but I don't feel he's shafted in Smash. Yeah, he doesn't use swords or has any magic projectiles and has a bunch of moves similar to Falcon, but a lot of the things that make Ganondorf who he is are there, even if more subtle. It's not like Ganondorf has a consistent or trademark fighting style in the Zelda series either.

Ocarina of Time had him shoot magic balls or stomp the floor. In Wind Waker, he doesn't use magic at all and fights with two katanas. In Twilight Princess, he fights with a sword and adds some hand-to-hand combat to the mix.

In Smash, he uses hand-to-hand combat (some moves taken or resembling those from Twilight Princess) with some dark magic added to the moves. Sure, a bunch of moves are still cloned from Falcon, but it's not like those moves are iconic to him or any character. They're just textbook martial arts moves that any human shaped character can use. Heck, Sheik and Samus have some similar moves to those. Mario and Luigi have similar up aerials to Falcon and Ganondorf. There are other examples that qualify, but you get my point.

I agree that he could be less clone-y than he is now and have more unique moves, but I'm not bothered by how he currently is either. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. =/

Sabotaging your own game with things like random tripping just to spite the competitive fanbase.

How can you sabotage your own things, when you are their creator? Sakurai can do as he damn pleases with his own games. Sure, he ought to be bound by a crapload of contracts that place restrictions when handling the many IPs in Smash, but he still does the base game design.

Like how Kojima does whatever he wants with the MGS series and so on. Or how Miyamoto does what he wants with his games. I fully believe in creative freedom. Creators always do their creations in their own ways.

Smash Bros. was never designed to be a competitive game. On the contrary, it was meant to be an antithesis of any other fighting game in the market.

People go to lengths to make it competitive and Sakurai has acknowledged that (he did say anyone is free to play the game the way they want), but that's not the game's primary target and will never be.

Not an insult. I'm absolutely positive Sakurai mains one of his KI characters. Especially Palutena, since he put in all that extra work to make sure she got special treatment. You don't do that do a character and then just not main them. lol

According to your logic, I guess he mains the Mii Fighters as well...

After all, he did make three special moves for each of them. So he HAS to main them, right?

But seriously, I do think you're making baseless assumptions with no evidence whatsoever to back your arguments. I can understand you being upset with Ganondorf in Smash and all, I mean, I already said a lot of times that I would like to see Ganondorf more diversified, but you don't have to resort to such sort of fallacious argumentation.

Anyway, considering he designed all the characters in Smash, I don't believe he has a main.

Also, Pit and Palutena aren't his creations, though I guess you can say he did their modern characterization and re-invented them. In that sense, you have a valid point.

And I think I'm done with this debate. I can only debate for so long before I grow tired. We will just agree to disagree and move on. No hard feelings.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

I defend constructive criticism and I have criticized some of his decisions.

Resorting to insults and baseless assumptions is a whole other story. Two completely different situations: one has credibility and foments good debates with sound logic, the other makes me not want to take the arguments seriously. I very much prefer a civilized conversation even if disagreements happen..

I know that. The statement I made about saying something nice about Sakurai was meant to mock people who basically do nothing but that and argue against it. Constructive criticism is very much welcome, yet some people don't seem to do that for whatever reason.

Smash Bros is about Nintendo franchises doing battle. What you want is for one of those franchises to stop being repped. That's a terrible idea. Take that idea to the Falcon boards if you're so sure it's a great idea.

I know what Super Smash Bros. is and it should stay that way; I was only kidding about removing captain Falcon to mimic how people used the argument I used against just about any other character who is in the same position as Captain Falcon yet they make him an exception because of his popularity or that they like him. It's hypocrisy and selfishness at its finest and I honestly wish that it would stop.

 

[Quillion]

What for? Because he's popular? The guy has next to nothing to add in Super Smash Bros. from his home series except for piloting the Blue Falcon and his ignored pistol, and I doubt people would like to have a moveset based entirely on Captain Falcon ramming into people or shooting them.

The only thing Captain Falcon has going for him is his popularity in his Super Smash Bros. appearances. If we want to maintain Super Smash Bros. giving accurate portrayals of characters then Captain Falcon has to go because his race car skill do not translate well in a fighting game at all.

"
Ganondorf is my favorite Zelda character and one of my favorite villains in fiction, but I don't feel he's shafted in Smash. Yeah, he doesn't use swords or has any magic projectiles and has a bunch of moves similar to Falcon, but a lot of the things that make Ganondorf who he is are there, even if more subtle. It's not like Ganondorf has a consistent or trademark fighting style in the Zelda series either.

Ocarina of Time had him shoot magic balls or stomp the floor. In Wind Waker, he doesn't use magic at all and fights with two katanas. In Twilight Princess, he fights with a sword and adds some hand-to-hand combat to the mix.

In Smash, he uses hand-to-hand combat (some moves taken or resembling those from Twilight Princess) with some dark magic added to the moves. Sure, a bunch of moves are still cloned from Falcon, but it's not like those moves are iconic to him or any character. They're just textbook martial arts moves that any human shaped character can use. Heck, Sheik and Samus have some similar moves to those. Mario and Luigi have similar up aerials to Falcon and Ganondorf. There are other examples that qualify, but you get my point.

I agree that he could be less clone-y than he is now and have more unique moves, but I'm not bothered by how he currently is either. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. =/

Okay I've been thinking about this a lot, and I have an answer.

Every character in Smash needs to be portrayed with their normal fighting style. Mario can fling fireballs as if he were powered up, Samus has her gun, Ness has his PSI. And even Zelda. Even though Zelda is usually noncombatant in her series, we know she has magical abilities, so she's a mage character.

But the thing is, yes, they should make up stuff, but only in order to FILL THE GAPS. Not every character is going to have usable animations from their respective games to fill in every single move command.

Now, with Captain Falcon, his entire move set fills in a gap that is completely impossible to even put stuff from F-Zero into besides his Final Smash. So he does have the right to a completely original move set. Similarly ROB has pretty much nothing to pull from besides using his Gyromites, so he can have an original move set, too.

Falcondorf is completely inexcusable. He has at least a few consistent things to bring in: use of sword(s) (TP, OoT, WW, SS counting Demise as being pretty much Ganon, maybe the old GCN demo video); use of a trident (every 2D game ever); a deflectable projectile aka Dead Man's volley, use of magic in general. Fistfighting is not Ganon's normal fighting style. It's only ever used as a supplement to his regular weapon use. There should be very few gaps to be filled in Ganon's ideal move set, but all we get is this Falcon-derived move set that shouldn't even be here.

And I'm not blaming Falcondorf's debut in Melee as the "cause"; it is entirely Sakurai's decision to keep him in a state that alienates nearly every Zelda fan. He outright stated that characters are completely reanimated from the ground up every Smash game, and he really should be aware of the amount of people who want his move set to be replaced with something more ideal, but all he's doing is alienating more people than he would if we got the real Ganondorf.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

Every character in Smash needs to be portrayed with their normal fighting style. Mario can fling fireballs as if he were powered up, Samus has her gun, Ness has his PSI. And even Zelda. Even though Zelda is usually noncombatant in her series, we know she has magical abilities, so she's a mage character.

But the thing is, yes, they should make up stuff, but only in order to FILL THE GAPS. Not every character is going to have usable animations from their respective games to fill in every single move command.

Now, with Captain Falcon, his entire move set fills in a gap that is completely impossible to even put stuff from F-Zero into besides his Final Smash. So he does have the right to a completely original move set. Similarly ROB has pretty much nothing to pull from besides using his Gyromites, so he can have an original move set, too.

Until Super Smash Bros. Brawl came along Captain Falcon had little-to-no gaps to fill in seeing as the very thing he was actually known for was completely absent in his moveset, and he was shown using his gun in the F-Zero (which is an actual instance of Captain Falcon actually fighting in the games, gun-fighting) which never manifested.

I'll say this again, I don't mind movesets being made up as long as they make sense for that character (and I honestly would not remove Captain Falcon just because he has little to draw upon from his home franchise, the SNES comic does show him fighting bare-handed and his current moveset fits him well) but if you try to do that for several other characters at this point in time whose cases are similar to Captain Falcon you'll be met with negative responses almost as if Captain Falcon is the only character who deserves that treatment. I've seen numerous arguments against Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, and the Miis on the basis that they have nothing to draw upon from their series regardless if their movesets are decent and match them (Wii Fit Trainer is the one training you to do yoga poses in the Wii Fit series and most likely knows how to turn them into combat moves and people have been asking for a create-a-character for quite a while which is what Miis are); I brought up Captain Falcon, made a counter argument against him, and I was called crazy for wanting to remove such a beloved character for any reason. See what I mean? I am personally up for any character making it in Super Smash Bros. with accurate portrayals or portrayals that make sense for them. I would also love for Ganondorf to get a moveset that makes sense for him as well (Hyrule Warriors seems to be one of his best portrayals and is very much well loved by the fans).

 

[Enderwoman]

I disagree. Wario was made to be an anti-Mario. So between him and Ganon, Wario would have been the fit for a "slower but stronger" version of a character. I'm not saying Wario should have been a clone though.

Wario is a very popular character from Nintendo's biggest franchise with 2 of his own spinoff franchises. Wario's bigger and probably more significant than Ganondorf will ever be, and thus that warrants him having priority over Ganondorf.

 

[Quillion]

Until Super Smash Bros. Brawl came along Captain Falcon had little-to-no gaps to fill in seeing as the very thing he was actually known for was completely absent in his moveset.

What are you talking about, here? I just said that his ENTIRE MOVESET was a filled gap.

I'll say this again, I don't mind movesets being made up as long as they make sense for that character (and I honestly would not remove Captain Falcon just because he has little to draw upon from his home franchise, the SNES comic does show him fighting bare-handed and his current moveset fits him well)

And that's good. He may have one weapon taken out (since Sakurai prefers to attempt to make the game as kid-friendly as possible despite failing and getting the T rating the second and third times), but at least his moveset does reflect his main fighting style.

but if you try to do that for several other characters at this point in time whose cases are similar to Captain Falcon you'll be met with negative responses almost as if Captain Falcon is the only character who deserves that treatment. I've seen numerous arguments against Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, and the Miis on the basis that they have nothing to draw upon from their series regardless if their movesets are decent and match them..

I didn't think Villager and Wii Fit Trainer would work either, but they turned out to use stuff from their home games very effectively in the end (plus, WFT isn't the first yoga fighter in video game history). The Miis also work on the basis of customization being their main "style" (minus the fact that Palutena oddly gets Mii-style customs, too).

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

What are you talking about, here? I just said that his ENTIRE MOVESET was a filled gap.

I guess I'm having some difficulty wrapping my head around the gap-filling you meant for Captain Falcon; maybe I'm not catching on to the wording. I nderstand what you mean by filling the gaps in but Captain Falcon's a little less clear for me. His moveset is still very much acceptable (even if I'm still a little confused as to why everyone with a handgun but him use theirs).

I didn't think Villager and Wii Fit Trainer would work either, but they turned out to use stuff from their home games very effectively in the end (plus, WFT isn't the first yoga fighter in video game history). The Miis also work on the basis of customization being their main "style" (minus the fact that Palutena oddly gets Mii-style customs, too).

I'm aware that Dhalsim is basically the trope codifier of weaponized Yoga, but Wii Fit Trainer isn't a bad choice for representing Yoga in my books. Also, the Miis having customization as their main style fits perfectly with their very nature of being customizable avatars. Really though, Palutena's the only oddball out of the rest of the cast due to having Mii-level customization with her special moves which fits how she's responsible for granting all of Pit's powers in Uprising; everyone else should have gotten just as much as her or at least more than what they have now. Sakurai does tend to represent characters contrary to their home appearances (Pichu, Ganondorf, Dr. Mario, Lucina, Dark Pit, I could go on and on).

 

[PhantomShab]

"Taking a shot in the dark" when I did post evidence that the grand majority of changes to characters come from new, non-remake titles.

Odd, seeing as how Bowser's changes reflect how he's been since at least the Gamecube days. Sounds less like "making him current" and more like "catching up".

If the creators of the character were really that bothered, I'm pretty sure they would have objected by now. Just saying.

This thread exists because a huge number of people are bothered by it, regardless.

Bowser isn't as strong as Ganondorf is. That's why he's faster. Ganondorf is an utter beast in regards to damage output, but that comes at a price.

And? Bowser is still crazy fast for a character as strong as he is. Just saying, at least a small running speed increase couldn't have hurt.

It's not like Ganondorf has a consistent or trademark fighting style in the Zelda series either.

So what? Link and Samus use all kinds of different gear throughout their games. Mario's Cape and FLUUD were only ever used in a single game each, and then vanished forever. Not to mention the inconsistencies of the things Mario can do in his games. Hell, he canonically can't throw fire balls without a Fire Flower, and yet he has no problems doing exactly that in Smash. Consistency doesn't matter, and tbh I'd rather have moves Ganondorf has only done in a single game than moves that Ganondorf has never done, ever. What kind of logic is that even?

"Oh, well he has a lot of moves, but he's done different moves in different games. The only solution is to make him a Captain Falcon clone."

Come on.

How can you sabotage your own things, when you are their creator?

Ok man, seriously. He put random tripping and practically removed combos with Brawl to prevent it from becoming a competitively played game like Melee. That is petty, no matter how you look at it.

Smash Bros. was never designed to be a competitive game. On the contrary, it was meant to be an antithesis of any other fighting game in the market.

And again, so what? Twilight books weren't designed to be kindling, and yo-yo's weren't designed to be toys. Why should it matter to Sakurai if people are having fun with his game by playing it competitively? Because they aren't having fun the way he wanted them to? Seriously, Sakurai can be petty at times. He's only human, as so many people have pointed out. But suddenly he's exempt from pettiness, while the rest of humanity isn't? Trying to spite the competitive crowd was a petty thing for Sakurai to do, just admit it. lol

According to your logic, I guess he mains the Mii Fighters as well...

After all, he did make three special moves for each of them. So he HAS to main them, right?

Yes, compare a legit character in the roster to a bland pastel who's very purpose is to be a customizable avatar to goof around with. You've totally removed all the bias toward Palutena being treated (no pun intended) like a goddess. Yeah, completely...not really. Seriously, what's Palutena's excuse?

And I think I'm done with this debate. I can only debate for so long before I grow tired. We will just agree to disagree and move on. No hard feelings.

Very well then.

Wario is a very popular character from Nintendo's biggest franchise with 2 of his own spinoff franchises. Wario's bigger and probably more significant than Ganondorf will ever be, and thus that warrants him having priority over Ganondorf.

Regardless of what you (and Sakurai) think, that doesn't justify Wario having a unique moveset while one of gaming's biggest villains doesn't.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

I will say this; if Ganondorf is deserving of a moveset that accurately represents him from his home franchise then so is everyone else.

 

[Piedro]

I will say this; if Ganondorf is deserving of a moveset that accurately represents him from his home franchise then so is everyone else.

If you are talking about Falcon. there was no proper moveset to begin with. He was just a racer. He never displayed any of his fighting skills in his HOME SERIES.

 

[Frostwraith]

I will say this; if Ganondorf is deserving of a moveset that accurately represents him from his home franchise then so is everyone else.

Pretty much every character is accurate to their franchises or characterization. Even Captain Falcon has accuracy to the franchise with his Final Smash. Plus, he's a bounty hunter and fights against criminals outside of his vehicle. Physically, he's a well built man, so him showing prowess in martial arts isn't something that strange. Him being the second fastest character in the game (behind Sonic) is likely a reference to the fast-paced nature of the F-Zero games.

Also, this is a fighting game, so it's obvious that creative liberties have to be taken, especially concerning characters that don't display fighting prowess in their games.

Even Ganondorf, despite still being a Falcon semi-clone, does display some accuracy to his canon characterization in the sense that he uses dark magic in some moves (even if just for physical attacks) and has sheer physical strength. He just lacks more moves he actually does in the series.

I do not mind his current state at all, but I undoubtedly would be very satisfied if he got some new moves resembling stuff he does in the games.

If all he got in a future Smash Bros. game was a new special move with a magic projectile, that would be very satisfying already, since that is THE trademark thing about Ganon(dorf). Plus, it would be an overall buff to him as he would stand bigger chances against projectile users. Replace his down special with that and I think many people would already rejoice. It's just one change, but one that would give him his definite signature move from the Zelda series.

Note that I actually don't think a sword is strictly necessary to his moveset, since in Ocarina of Time, he never used a sword in his boss fight (unless you count beast Ganon, but that's a different story).

Hell, Ganondorf's Final Smash is an almost exact representation of the Ganon boss battle in Twilight Princess. Compare:
- Twilight Princess: charges at Link; upon reaching a wall, opens a portal and warps to somewhere else.
- Smash Bros.: charges forward, striking anyone in his path; upon reaching the blast line, warps to where he first activated the Final Smash, reverting to Gerudo form as well.

Smash took a few liberties (after all, it's a boss battle translated into a super move), but it's pretty much accurate to what beast Ganon does in Twilight Princess.

(Welp, I did say I was done with this, but I felt adding one last thing. I'm out.)

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

If you are talking about Falcon. there was no proper moveset to begin with. He was just a racer. He never displayed any of his fighting skills in his HOME SERIES.

How about the SNES comic in the manual itself where he not only knows how to fight bare-handed but knows how to use a gun? And my previous posts have acknowledged that he does not display any of the specific techniques he has in Super Smash Bros.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

Pretty much every character is accurate to their franchises or characterization. Even Captain Falcon has accuracy to the franchise with his Final Smash. Plus, he's a bounty hunter and fights against criminals outside of his vehicle. Physically, he's a well built man, so him showing prowess in martial arts isn't something that strange. Him being the second fastest character in the game (behind Sonic) is likely a reference to the fast-paced nature of the F-Zero games.

Also, this is a fighting game, so it's obvious that creative liberties have to be taken, especially concerning characters that don't display fighting prowess in their games.

Even Ganondorf, despite still being a Falcon semi-clone, does display some accuracy to his canon characterization in the sense that he uses dark magic in some moves (even if just for physical attacks) and has sheer physical strength. He just lacks more moves he actually does in the series.

I do not mind his current state at all, but I undoubtedly would be very satisfied if he got some new moves resembling stuff he does in the games.

If all he got in a future Smash Bros. game was a new special move with a magic projectile, that would be very satisfying already, since that is THE trademark thing about Ganon(dorf). Plus, it would be an overall buff to him as he would stand bigger chances against projectile users. Replace his down special with that and I think many people would already rejoice. It's just one change, but one that would give him his definite signature move from the Zelda series.

Note that I actually don't think a sword is strictly necessary to his moveset, since in Ocarina of Time, he never used a sword in his boss fight (unless you count beast Ganon, but that's a different story).

Hell, Ganondorf's Final Smash is an almost exact representation of the Ganon boss battle in Twilight Princess. Compare:
- Twilight Princess: charges at Link; upon reaching a wall, opens a portal and warps to somewhere else.
- Smash Bros.: charges forward, striking anyone in his path; upon reaching the blast line, warps to where he first activated the Final Smash, reverting to Gerudo form as well.

Smash took a few liberties (after all, it's a boss battle translated into a super move), but it's pretty much accurate to what beast Ganon does in Twilight Princess.

(Welp, I did say I was done with this, but I felt adding one last thing. I'm out.)

Ganondorf is primarily represented as a swordsman with dark magic at his disposal, and while giving him a sword and magic based moveset would be seen as doing him justice, acting like he's never used non-sword attacks at all is still ignoring the very apparent fact that Ganondorf can and will use physical attacks either in conjunction with his sword and/or magic techniques or without them. In literally every appearance Ganondorf was in he used an offensive combat technique involving his own body. With that said, I do believe that Ganondorf would most accurately be portrayed using a sword or two in conjunction with magic and straight brawling (about a third of his moveset for each). Super Smash Bros. has currently only gotten one of those right while appearing to look like it got two (he doesn't use any direct offensive magic and his swordplay is absent).