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The issue of DNF-ing (Did Not Finish)

Burning Lava

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
492
Location
NE
There is nothing worse than playing a game for any extended period of time, even for just 4-5 minutes, and having your opponent quit on you. I know most smashers are pretty cool, but there will be A LOT of smashers online that won't be cool. We should come up with some sort of honor code or system to discourage DNFing. I hope there's a built in tracker that records whether or not people quit a match, but I doubt we'll be so lucky. Maybe eventually we can start a thread or SWF based web page for people to report others who have DNFed them. Eventually, maybe those people can be avoided. (maybe not though)

That's just a quick idea, anything better you guys can think of? A solemn oath people can sign to become part of the "honorable brotherhood of finishers?" (And then they can be booted from the group if they are found to have too many DNFs.) Feedback/ideas please.


By the way, please keep the discussion to this specific issue. The Official Online Discussion can be found here http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=74340 for all other things online related. (If that isn't the real one please link to it and I'll edit.) I think this is worthy enough to be it's own topic as this is a very specific thing only relating to online in the sense that DNFing is an issue because of online.
 

Sariku

Smash Master
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
4,384
Location
Biloxi, Mississippi
I think thats a good idea, but take it or leave it, not all Online Smashers is on this Forum.. I don't believe in giving up, I'm the type of person that gets better when I'm pressured, so I won't give up. I swear it.
 

Toasty!

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
405
Location
San Antonio, TX
The code of Honor should be...


Even if thy @$$ is beingeth kick; DO NOT QUITTITH.
Quit only allowed if emergency doth happens or there is an outage of power.

If going to quittith, jump off the stage twice, than loggeth out.
 

MarsBitrona

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
161
This problem very frequently plagues online DS games, although I suspect it will be less of an issue on a console system. Since handhelds have always been designed for quick play, they're more likely to be turned off when something comes up. However, when you have to go through the trouble of turning on your TV and a system and starting a game, people will probably be a bit more dedicated. That's like 3 remotes!
 

Shapechanger

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 12, 2006
Messages
98
Location
Albuquerque
If you've ever played Metroid: Hunters online, you know that there are a ton of people who will quit just because they're losing and don't want the loss to be "completed", so to speak. I find that in Hunters this problem is at its worse, but this also happens in Halo 2, in World of Warcraft, and in Starcraft; this happens in every online game ever made.

It's rare that somebody quitting is an actual forgivable problem like a power outage or an emergency.
 

Burning Lava

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
492
Location
NE
yes, DNFing could be a problem, but did you ever think that maybe the quitter had a good reason to quit? such as, he may have had a power outtage, or he needs to do something tha's actually important? like bathing, cleaning, etc...

so, i'm pretty neutral on the issue~
Yeah, I thought of that, that's why the number of DNFs would have to be significant. Maybe you're only "allowed" so many per month. I mean, if someone has played 5,000 matches and only has 20, 30 DNFs, that's not too bad. Maybe people should strive to have the best possible ratio, and if if that ratio gets too high (we'd have to decide what to set it at) then... well, they shall be shunned... heh.

The code of Honor should be...


Even if thy @$$ is beingeth kick; DO NOT QUITTITH.
Quit only allowed if emergency doth happens or there is an outage of power.

If going to quittith, jump off the stage twice, than loggeth out.
Haha, good code of honor, and yeah, that's another solution to people having to quit. Kill all your stocks, or forfeit if that's an option. If the other player gets a win out of it, who cares. It's just people who can't stand losses on their records that I don't like.

Personally, I will be PROUD of my many thousands of losses I'm sure to rack up. It will show that I am a warrior fierce and experienced... and not a DNFer. People will also probably expect to defeat me if they see I've lost a lot of matches, but they might just be surprised. I'll have the advantage! The element of surprise!
 

Shapechanger

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 12, 2006
Messages
98
Location
Albuquerque
Yeah, I thought of that, that's why the number of DNFs would have to be significant. Maybe you're only "allowed" so many per month. I mean, if someone has played 5,000 matches and only has 20, 30 DNFs, that's not too bad. Maybe people should strive to have the best possible ratio, and if if that ratio gets too high (we'd have to decide what to set it at) then... well, they shall be shunned... heh.

I don't see how you'd enforce that. What if they just go back to the menu? Or just turn the Wii off?
 

petre

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 17, 2007
Messages
1,920
Location
closest to Sterling Heights, MI on your wii foreca
hahah, the players with the best ratio will win 100 wins...they play someone who purposely loses 100 times for their prize.

but they said that brawl most likely wont have a ranking system, which means winning and losing dont matter as much, thats the main reason people would quit a match they were losing, so it wouldnt affect their ranking...so if theres no ranking, then theres not so much of a problem anymore.
 

Burning Lava

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
492
Location
NE
I don't see how you'd enforce that. What if they just go back to the menu? Or just turn the Wii off?
Well, you can't, and that is what this topic is about... trying to come up with a solution. All I was saying is that you can see and remember/write down the people's names who DNF. Then you can post those on the internet so others will know who DNFs... eventually if the same people get reported over and over again they will earn a bad reputation. If there is a way to choose not to play them, this will help everyone.

(I edited the post previous to this one, so check it out that last part :))
 

smash~bomber

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
341
Location
Somewhere where it's not quite hot, but not quite
true, but there is still the ranking made up by the smash community. so if someone purposely quits, they instantly lose respect among the community. but they can always change their tag. so... yeah, i guess there really isn't a problem~

@burninglava
yeah, but wouldn't that lead to false reports? i'm talking about people who report just because they want to, not because someone actually quit. made up reports is whati mean.
 

Flak

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
32
Location
Williamsburg, Va
sariku looks like lonelygirl15... if that is in fact his face on his signature. oh and dylan is the keyboardist for a lame thrash metal band... its true
 

Burning Lava

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
492
Location
NE
@petre
Does Mario Kart DS have a ranking system? I don't really think they do, but I don't remember. Still, it records wins/losses and people drop out all the time just because of this. I don't know, maybe it's recorded on nintendo.com or something. Point is, people will drop out just so they have a better looking wins/losses record even if they aren't really "ranked" among other players. EDIT: But I hope you're right, and the issue isn't too bad... of course than again, even if NOTHING is recorded, you still have jerks who quit just cause they can't stand to lose a match!

@smash~bomber
Yeah, but if you can only report someone once, it would balance out. Unless you get really unlucky and a crap load of jerks report you. (This isn't the best option, there may be better ideas.)
 

Tera253

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Messages
866
Location
Spamland
that's an awesome idea.
to punish any DNFers, they should have a negative handicap on the next game they play.
(no sarcasm)
Tera loses all the time. it wouldn't hurt her none to accept another loss.
~Tera253~
 

Dylan_Tnga

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
4,644
Location
Montreal Canada
I love it... finally honor applied to something that makes sense.

If the ''honor code'' for SSBB was just ''dont quit'' then thats fine by me.

But if it was the scrub ''honor'' code, than forget about it. The scrub honor code being no characters are playable except link and roy, no edgehogging, no wavedashing, no l canceling, no shorthopping, etc. Because all that, is cheap.

Why do scrubs exist :(
 

smash~bomber

Smash Journeyman
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May 14, 2006
Messages
341
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Somewhere where it's not quite hot, but not quite
@Burning Lava
yes, but there's a problem there, what if someone has a malicious intent against you, he could tell his friends "hey you know smash~bomber? yeah, lets all report his a$$!"
and wouldn't you know it, there are 20 of them! so 20 reports of smash~bomber DNFing. see?
so there would have to be a counter measure... but what?


But if it was the scrub ''honor'' code, than forget about it. The scrub honor code being no characters are playable except link and roy, no edgehogging, no wavedashing, no l canceling, no shorthopping, etc. Because all that, is cheap.
Why do scrubs exist :(
because they can~
 

Zeela12

Smash Ace
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
588
Location
Longmont, CO
there should be 2 modes of play, 1 just for fun and 1 ladder like in Blizzard games, where the matches actually count.

the ladder matches I guess will count toward the rank, and the fun ones dont. when some one gets a power outage on ladder, then he loses automaticly, so in otherwords, normal matches wont matter to the rank and no 1 would bother to DNF.

sound like a good idea?
 

Azukki

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 1, 2005
Messages
137
They should set it so DNFs count as 2 loses for the guy that left, if he's loosing. And it shouldn't count the match if the person winning DNFs.

There's no public ranking system, but it might keep track of wins/losses in the game data.

And if it doesn't even keep track of w/l, then both players will know who really won, so it doesn't matter.
 

Sundown

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
218
I think the best solution would be not taking online seriously at all... as we all know it will have its many shortcommings, like lag (even barely noticable lag) messing up l-cancels (or any other tight frame windows moves), or like DNFers just as the starter of this thread has pointed out.

If online gaming is just taken casually and for fun, and people understand that beating other people online doesnt really mean that much, there wouldnt be many DNFers as well because... who cares?

The thing that scares me most about brawl going online is people starting to take it too seriously and thinking its totally valid and stuff, and thus stop going to tournies or gatherings and the likes.

Anyway, back on topic, i believe that if the online part is played just for fun and rankings or w/e arent taken seriously, there will be less DNFers trying to avoid looses by disconnecting.

My 2 cents
 

AS Juggernaut

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
223
In mario strikers for the wii, I hear if you quit you lose points causing your rank to go down, perhaps something like this could be implemented in brawl.
 

-=Marth_n_Roy=-

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 5, 2003
Messages
835
Location
Mattland
The only way to 'stop' DNF, is to make it an INSTANT win for the person who stayed, and lost for the person who left. Much like Star-crafts system

and a 'grace period' should be in effect, for the first minute or so of the match, if a player knows "god, incoming -50 score" gives him time to exit for a draw, rather than an embarrassing loss.

If the ''honor code'' for SSBB was just ''dont quit'' then thats fine by me.
True dat, finish the fight you started, regardless of how majorly pwned you will be at the end

Why do scrubs exist :(
To remind us of how stupid people are starting off, and to keep us from ever getting that worse.
 

Pegasus Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 1, 2007
Messages
708
Long-time reader, first-time poster. I think the issue with DNFs/Droppers/Whatever-you-call-them is actually two-fold. Or rather, any sort of solution to them is, and even then it still won't be perfect.

The first aspect is any sort of ranking/tracking method for showing on your screen how many games the player has completed. It's possible this may not be done at all; we've heard speculation all over the place about how Brawl's online play may just consist of the ability to play, being very bare-bones. If it isn't, then a match-tracking system likely could be done and should be done. Tracking "Matches completed" either as a number or percentage should be pretty easy. Anyone Dropping/DNF'ing would receive either a match loss, or have a decrease in their Matches Completed percentage, or both. Seems easy enough, and we already know some console games do this -- don't some versions of Madden have exactly this kind of setup?

There is the downside that anyone who Drops for a genuinely legitimate reason, such as a sudden unexpected power-surge turning their Wii off, will get a DNF on their match tracking. This is unavoidable, since the world isn't perfect (if it was, we'd already have Brawl). Fortunately, any honest player will have a low DNF percentage on their match-tracking unless they have some truly bizarre circumstances affecting them. So if they do have some sort of match-tracking, a DNF percentage indicator or similar seems fine. Those who do drop rampantly will be properly reflected.


But. But: Not all DNFers will care. Others may be more subtle about it, maybe even using multiple accounts if the game permits it. This is where the social side comes in, and the SmashBoards are a perfect outlet for this. Once Brawl comes out, you could have a 'Good Game' thread and a 'Bad Game' thread. Good Game would be for posting the names of anyone who plays a good, straight-up, honest match with you and plays it to the end. Note that since this is a matter of social honesty rather than Brawl skill, a player would not need to be Isai/Ken/etc. to be listed in the Good Game thread. So long as they play honest, their amount of skill should be generally immaterial. Just post their name and congratulate them on a fun session of Brawl, and move on.

For those that do drop under obvious circumstances (They're losing by a significant margin, etc.), posting their name in the Bad Game thread would be appropriate. Some level of restraint would need to be exercised here; if the player was still reasonably in the match and capable of winning when they DNF'ed, it could very likely be an ISP burp, power outage, or other legitimate reason to suddenly vanish from the game. Those instances would probably need to be given benefit of the doubt, presumption of innocence, etc. - Bad Game thread would be for blatantly obvious drops/DNFs. Skill should also be irrelevant here in the overwhelming majority of cases.

There are two benefits to this. The Good Game thread promotes community and sportsmanship, while the Bad Game thread will help you learn about DNF'ers before wasting significant time with them. The Good Game thread also helps act as a sort of defense against false Bad Game reports, in some cases.


There is the downside that people could engage in clique behavior, getting their friends to help them excessively or outright falsely mass-report a Bad Game person. The only solution I have for that is individual discipline: The person should be expected to keep civil and polite, and honest in their dealings. I've seen this work in other competitive-gaming communities.

Obviously not everyone will behave in the ideal fashion, and that's the inherent drawback to the social aspect of this. I don't know if there is a fix for that, or really even a fix for any system people might impose to help fight the DNF menace.

In fact, I'll come out and say it: There probably isn't a perfect fix. The best anyone could really hope for is a Good Enough solution to the matter, something that alleviates the problem even if it doesn't totally fix it.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter.
 

Fawriel

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
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oblivion~
they should take the halo 2 approach, and make it where if you quit it counts as a loss, regardless of if you just shut off your system or quit the match or whatever.
I wonder why this simplest of solutions took so long to come up.

They could also add some sort of system where one player can request to leave and the other has to accept in order for the quit not to be recorded. Although that could be kinda flawed.

Or just record quits alongside wins and losses. If someone has 100 wins and no losses, but 90 quits, you know something's fishy.


But yeah, all those are things WE have no power over...

I guess us honorable SWFers should just keep going to tournaments ( well, those who do do that anyway ) and not care about any sort of rankings or unranked statistics. Because we know that a scrub with 100% wins apparently only plays worse scrubs or is a quitter, and someone like Ken has some losses because he plays people of similar skill.
 

Dylan_Tnga

Smash Master
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Feb 19, 2007
Messages
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Montreal Canada
I guess us honorable SWFers should just keep going to tournaments ( well, those who do do that anyway ) and not care about any sort of rankings or unranked statistics. Because we know that a scrub with 100% wins apparently only plays worse scrubs or is a quitter, and someone like Ken has some losses because he plays people of similar skill.
For sure. Anyone who takes online brawl seriously when it comes out is an idiot IMO. Itll be great fun, but if you wanna prove your skills, take it to a real tournament.

OR an online tournament :) If there was a way to ensure no lag, which I doubt will happen. So in person is still gonna be the most legit way to do tourneys.

Screw brawl anyway, im gonna keep going to any melee tourneys in my area :p
 

Cenedar

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 8, 2007
Messages
525
Location
Spear Pillar
DNFers make me want to break things... lots of things. I haven't played online as much as everyone else, but I've had people do it to me in real life before, and it is not only ridiculously selfish on the part of the DNFer, but also extremely insulting to the person who stayed and/or was going to win the match.

Take your lumps like a true smasher and learn from the experience. Don't quit and make people hate you. It's that simple.

Now if only we could get everybody to listen to it lol
 

Speedsk8er

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Messages
2,212
Location
Raleigh, NC
I dunno how this would be done but maybe there should be a way for the game to record the way that the user left the game. Like, if they quit, it would record it as such but if the connection wigs out or the power mysteriously dies, it could record that somehow.

I dunno how it would be implemented and I doubt it is possible but it's a suggestion.
 

Y34HDUD3!!!

Smash Lord
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
1,703
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In a giant bucket
Online tournaments please!!!!
I have no idea if there are tournaments near me, and I can't get myself to search for them.
And the best solution is probably the "you quit=you lose" one.
 

Chaotic Yoshi

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
1,384
Location
canada
There's a warcraft 3 custom game called "Dota". Those games last anywhere from 20mins to 1hr+, hence DNF'ers are a huge issue for completing games. What their solution was is to create a banlist. The banlist is a computer program that tracks all the reports made by people are hackers/leaving/griefing etc. If you have enough reports made against your name, then your name will be listed on the banlist and easily looked up. Then it's up to the player to decide if they want to play vs you. They also made an appeal forum, where people would go to appeal bans by explaining their circumstances and why they did what they did, or to disprove the reporter. The major difference between this working for dota vs smash, is because dota has a save replay option meaning concrete proof of the match.
 

Sariku

Smash Master
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May 24, 2007
Messages
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Biloxi, Mississippi
...I'm gonna take it seriously... I'm gonna be like... I HAVN'T LOST A MATCH! WHAT NOT SUCKA! Okay, not that bad, but I'm gonna be like, I can't lose this match, I can't lose.... Man! I lost a match, not I gotta win one in its place...

I mean, its not like anyone will be better, lets say, cause everyone has just got the game, so we can't be better then otehrs that fast.
 

Pegasus Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 1, 2007
Messages
708
I dunno how this would be done but maybe there should be a way for the game to record the way that the user left the game. Like, if they quit, it would record it as such but if the connection wigs out or the power mysteriously dies, it could record that somehow.
What you're suggesting can be easily done. But it's also easily circumventable. One could easily simulate an 'innocent DNF' (loss of power/connection) by simply yanking their ethernet cable. If your Wii is using wireless connections to your internet connection, then yanking the actual modem's cable should do just as well. Either way, your 'client' (your copy of Brawl) would have disconnected from the session without sending an explicit 'Client Quitting' data packet to the other player and/or server (depending on how Brawl constructs its networking behavior).

For all technological purposes, the game would believe you'd had an 'innocent DNF', when the opposite is true. The 'Client Quit' packet would only be sent when the player explicitly chooses to leave the game using a Quit Game option in Brawl's interface. Most DNFers/Droppers won't do this.

So technologically, what you're asking for is indeed plausible. It's also just so easily worked around that it'd probably be wasted development time for the Brawl devs. I also suspect they may not care. From what I've heard in conversation with lower-rung (very lower rung, so please don't treat this as official) Nintendo of America reps...the notion of dropping/DNF'ing is supposedly somewhat alien to Japanese players, and it's why many DS Wi-Fi games Nintendo has don't have some sort of anti-DNF measure -- the devs aren't even aware it's a problem.

Whether that's really true or not, I don't know. But it's an interesting perspective on the issue.
 

Thunderslf

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
256
Quitting is stupid, it should still exist if the player has something to do, but quitting because you're losing is annoying. You don't see baseball teams leaving the game when they're getting their *** kicked do you?
 

Red Exodus

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
4,494
Location
Hell
I don't play an online games, but if I did I'd DNF for very few reasons, some of them being:

My mom nagging me [about anything] and threatening to take away my Wii
I have to tend to something on the stove
I have to tend to my little sister
My battery starts dying [I'd rather not have my battery cut out in the middle of a match]
Someone important comes over

Other than that I wouldn't do it, this is coming from a guy with a pokemon game [I forget which one] with several good level 100s that has a complete losing streak, no wins at all, losses come from more than one person. I've also had someone disconnect on me when I threw the finishing blow, it's really f***ing annoying.

Nice posts, Pegasus. It's good to see someone new [in posting, since you mainly read for a long time] posting in such an intelligent manner, but I guess you understand what the posters will some degree of intelligence like to see from your reading experience. I just went back and read you first post and it was brilliant, that sounds like a good idea.

So, yeah, I won't do it and if someone does it to me I'll make a list [on the forums, on my Wii [if available] or otherwise] and never play that person again.
 
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