The Ideal "4.0"

[smashbro29]

Every 64, Melee, Brawl and P:M (both altered and original) stage available.

Being able to hold X instead of Y on the rematch function that will shuffle the song.

 

[Celestis]

The adding of at least one exclusive character to really separate itself as its own title.
The ability to tether walls again.
Everyone has at least one alt costume just to be fair.
A launcher from the Wii menu.(Though maybe it already exists? If it does please tell me)
All the items working again.
Motion sensor mines do not vanish after 10 seconds x[
Replays that work on the full version.

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

The adding of at least one exclusive character to really separate itself as its own title.
The ability to tether walls again.
Everyone has at least one alt costume just to be fair.
A launcher from the Wii menu.(Though maybe it already exists? If it does please tell me)
All the items working again.
Motion sensor mines do not vanish after 10 seconds x[
Replays that work on the full version.

New characters, I'd especially like to see, like Waluigi.

 

[ITALIAN N1NJA]

Off the top of my head, I'd like to see Roy's melee blue costume with the yellow cape(I know it's picky).

How about a Survival mode? You play random stages with random level 9 computers and you get a set amount of stamina. So you need to do your best to preserve your life. That would be pretty sweet. With co-op would be fun as well. Except if one player faints, the other can still go on until he faints.

Trying to think what hasn't been mentioned. It's been said, but I'd LOVE to see Mute City and Great Bay make a return as stage. Great Bay would most likely be easier to accomplish. I know the stage has a ricochet ceiling but I love that stage. It's fun. It'd be for casual play.

 

[TimeSmash]

How about a unique victory screen background different from Brawl or Melee's??

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I could dig that

I also want the sangbag to look like pichu.

 

[XXXX1000]

To be honest, I'm completely satisfied with what PMBR has done. Regardless of whether or not the game is perfectly balanced, they've clearly made the game MORE balanced than Brawl while adding techniques, stages, characters and all kinds of stuff. 3.02 could be the final release and I'd be happy.

But the IDEAL 4.0 for me:

-Do the Ganondorf + Black Shadow moveset thing everyone's talking about. I REALLY want a new F-Zero rep, and this keeps the Ganon moveset (which I love, especially the thunder stomp) while adding more F-Zero. Other character slots could be filled or left empty, doesn't really matter, as long as if they do get filled then they're of the same quality as the rest of the roster.
-Some more/better costumes. Funny enough, I think Ganon could do with some better colors, since all of his are "dark with a hint of blue/red/green/whatever". It wouldn't be canon of course, but I'd like to see Ganon in gold armor or some other colors.
-swapping PS1 on the stage list with Distant Planet. Keeping PS1 as a counterpick is just a holdover from Melee where there were few viable stages anyway. It has two forms with walls that often just become stalls until it changes again, and the standard setup mimics PS2, so if you want to ban PS2 you should ban PS1 as well. I know this is more of a gripe with competitive rulesets, but I'd like to see PS1 phased out and in turn moved on the select screen.
-No new "competitive" stages. Going by Apex ruleset, there are like 14 already, maybe even 15? They all have different sizes, platform layouts, blast zones, and a few have walls to recover with. There's already a lot of variety, and the new stage Skyloft doesn't even really get played anyway. Making new competitive stages will slowly invalidate the banning process. I'm all for non-competitive stages, though! I miss Kongo Jungle N64 deeply.
-Reskin Dracula's Castle to be Bowser's Castle. Not sure why the devs added Castlevania representation where it wasn't needed, and I think Bowser's Castle makes a whole lot more sense.
-heavy rework of Jigglypuff's moveset - her current viability is centered around "remove options from other characters", and overall she isn't healthy for the game. I think Rest is a really big part of that, because it's a very weird anomaly that needs to be accounted for - if it gets too easy to hit Rest then it's too strong, but if you nerf the damage/knockback of it then it becomes useless. I think replacing Rest with Sing, giving her some recovery on Up-B, and removing a jump or 2 would be one place to start. Obviously not ONLY that, she'd need balance from there, but I think that's a start.
-Complete change of menus and announcer to be completely distinct from Brawl, incorporating more purple.
-TONS more Pokeball pokemon because pokeball-only matches are hilarious.

That's about it though.

 

[Praxis]

I want Pichu back, but I want him exactly like Melee.

There needs to be a crappy character because it's really fun to pick a crappy character and beat people with him. In Brawl, I played a lot of Ganondorf (worst character for those who don't play Brawl) just to beat decent players with my Ganondorf and revel in the salt.

I want to see balance patches making everything closer to even.

I want to see a PAL version.

I think that some of the characters should be brought closer to their Brawl version. Snake, for example, should get two grenades and the longer timers on them. Some of the changes are unnecessary.

And call it 4.0 and Gold.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I think that some of the characters should be brought closer to their Brawl version. Snake, for example, should get two grenades and the longer timers on them. Some of the changes are unnecessary.

Or, you know, they were implemented to prevent him from adopting an excessively campy playstyle and instead focus on his heavy punish, stage control and vertical kill set-up design, which is very polished and streamlined.

Snake can already choke you out into nearly lose-lose with the bevy of tools he already possesses. An additional 'nade would be overkill.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Is the dart gun not enough!?

 

[Praxis]

Or, you know, they were implemented to prevent him from adopting an excessively campy playstyle and instead focus on his heavy punish, stage control and vertical kill set-up design, which is very polished and streamlined.

Snake can already choke you out into nearly lose-lose with the bevy of tools he already possesses. An additional 'nade would be overkill.

I don't see the issue with campy as long as it's in an interesting way. Samus and Jigglypuff are campy in Melee and the PM team didn't eliminate that.

Snake's camping wasn't "run away and throw stuff", it was using stage traps to herd the player and guessing how they'd maneuver out of it (as you had multiple grenades out that are blowing up all over the place).

Snake in Brawl was a very interesting character. He had a ton of control over the 'nades and could control the grenade his opponent was holding. Project M Snake is a rushdown with a bunch of bread and butter combos and I actually find Brawl Snake way more interesting to watch. The changes were directly to change the type of character he is, not for the sake of buffing or weakening.

Snake's P:M combos are exciting to watch, but autopilot. Dthrow to tranquilizer to C4 to throw to detonate. Brawl Snake did some *incredible* stuff with option control and then dove in to hit you with a DACUS or tilt while you were trying to get through it, then set up to manipulate your ground return.

P:M Snake could have been more aggressive (more tools to follow up on his hit, I dunno, make DACUS jump cancellable?) without losing the tools that made him most interesting. Now he's just another rushdown character.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Massive difference of opinion, then.

And some factual inaccuracy. Snake has a kit that revolves around zoning and a punish game on par with Ike's, but the man cannot rush anything down. Snake's approach is subpar and if you watch high-level Snake play, you might mistake successful bait and punishes with successful approaches. Not one and the same at all. Snake in fact struggles against rushdown himself. Up-B OoS is a great defensive option, but really his only good OoS option and rather predictable. Combined with his slow aerials, poor aerial mobility and a recovery that leaves him wide open, Snake has to play very smart and very careful to capitalize off of his set-ups. Guys like Rolex and Pro just make it look easy.

 

[Praxis]

Pretty much. The difference is that you're coming from a Melee perspective, which tends to really not care about preserving aspects of Brawl. In this case, the PMBR took it on themselves to change the character's entire playstyle to a completely different one.

Diddy, Dedede, even Wolf are great examples of bringing a character from Brawl over without changing their core gameplay. Wario and Snake are basically a giant middle finger to players who play those characters in Brawl; a "let's pretend Brawl didn't exist and make our own character" attitude.

Imagine if the PMBR took Jigglypuff and decided to make her an aggressive character and tweaked her whole moveset to make her play nothing like Melee? It'd feel like a silly fan game, not an interesting take on the character, to someone who played Melee.

 

[GP&B]

To be fair, some on here would argue that Jiggs could use some play style adjustments to compete against characters that otherwise greatly diminish her Melee kit (while making her more aggressive in the process).

However, I still don't agree with the whole middle finger notion. Can you even seriously believe that vanilla Snake and Wario could operate well in an environment that is wildly faster than Brawl's? (Perhaps Wario could, but do we really want another Jiggs?)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It's a giant middle finger to people who care about well-designed characters to keep Jiggs the way she is. She's needed a revamp for a while.

Game Design > Staying true to the source, and you've made an error assuming I care one whit about the 'sanctity' of Melee.

 

[Praxis]

However, I still don't agree with the whole middle finger notion. Can you even seriously believe that vanilla Snake and Wario could operate well in an environment that is wildly faster than Brawl's? (Perhaps Wario could, but do we really want another Jiggs?)

Yes. Dedede did. You might need to buff or weaken them (I think Snake would actually be a pretty good with his crazy tilts and L-cancelling his aerials), but I think they would translate. Vanilla Wario would actually be decent at comboing. He had actual combos and solid frame traps in Brawl, and he mainly a big camper because he could run away and airdodge through things...in a faster environment with higher gravity, he really doesn't have the same ability to run away. He never walled like Jigglypuff did, it was a very different style of camping than Jiggs. I think he'd still have been campy, but not timing out games.

Neither character "had" to be changed, except that P:M seems to think very defensive individual characters are bad.


One more note: A finished Project M, to me, would have a working SSE/single player.

 

[GP&B]

I'm perhaps a bit more defensive of Wario's PM outing because I adore the Wario Land games and find him a way better fit with the way he was designed here. I can't comment much on his Brawl outing otherwise so maybe you're right on that. I still don't feel Snake's tools would be even remotely fast enough to work though. Tilts? Sure, the only one that really got changed was UTilt just because everyone knows the hitbox on it before was ridiculous. I feel like you would never be able to find the time to setup DSmash or make use of longer timed grenades. When it comes down to dealing with pressure-heavy characters, it doesn't come across as feasible.

The more I try to think of things to say, the more I just ultimately disagree with you on a personal level so we can't really discuss much else beyond this. I don't find any of Brawl interesting to watch for that matter outside of Snake and Diddy which also doesn't help me make any points on how those characters transition into PM. Rolex's PM Snake is a joy to watch, but I feel like you don't know what you're saying when you call him a rushdown character when Snake has absolutely none of the traits to be anything more than an aggressive zoner.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

The only changes any characters should get should be AWAY from what Brawl had them as. P:M's way of going about it is the right one.
Brawl had a few good things about it. A FEW.

 

[Terotrous]

The main thing I would like is for most AI characters not to suicide all 4 stocks when playing against them. Actually, if you could also apply this fix to my friend's Roy, that would be great too.

 

[TimeSmash]

The only changes any characters should get should be AWAY from what Brawl had them as. P:M's way of going about it is the right one.
Brawl had a few good things about it. A FEW.

I agree and disagree with this in terms of Snake. He had an interesting playstyle in Brawl, and I believe some of that should be preserved, but not entirely kept at the same time. P:M has made so many characters much more viable though, so I agree with you on that

 

[arcticfox8]

My wishlist:

-At least one new clone engine character: even if it's Pichu or Young Link
-Every N64 stage's layout completely remade aesthetically. I played Smash 64 when I was kid too, but they're so UGLY now. At least give Hyrule Castle a retexturization, it's the worst looking one. Using Bridge of Eldin's background (omitting the TP Hyrule Castle in the background)would be awesome for it, too (I know this is already on Brawl Vault, I just want it as part of the official release).
-A tourney viable Mother/EarthBound stage
-Luigi's Mansion back, made competitively viable
-Ness buff
-Ness buff
-Ness buff
-Charizard buff
-Ness buff

I know this is page one stuff but
I love you too, man
I love you too

 

[MechWarriorNY]

I agree and disagree with this in terms of Snake. He had an interesting playstyle in Brawl, and I believe some of that should be preserved, but not entirely kept at the same time. P:M has made so many characters much more viable though, so I agree with you on that

He was an odd case either way, and it's not so much a move-set thing as a mentality, but I think you understand well enough.

 

[The_NZA]

Currently not possible as it would be inpossible to add training mode behaviors without removing other ones.

Then remove the other damn features. Who the hell would make a computer walk, or run, or jump if you could make them "DI towards", "DI Away", "Shield".

Honestly, the options that shoudl be prioritized are "DI Away", "DI Towards", "Perfect DI" (always perpendicular), Infinite Shield, Crouch, and Player.

Everything else is a meaningless workaround we use to simulate what we really want.

 

[Drodeka]

1. Recovery nerfs to most or all characters.
With a special nod to brawl characters, I would really love to see most if not all characters receive nerfs to recovery. Mostly only Up-specials.

2. Improved training mode.
I know it's been suggested, but this is my most wanted and I think most important possible feature. The ability to even make the CPU shield and/or crouch would be great, especially if the shield couldn't break. Maybe add record then play, much like Street Fighter 4.

3. An improved return of Stage Builder.
Taking parts form existing stages and/or just the return of a working Brawl stage builder would be sweet, there's no denying it.

4. Fixing the single button input problem.
Double jump cancelling and wavedash out of shield would become much more approachable techniques and would appropriately change how many players learn to play. Actually I put this at number one lol.

5. A completely competitively sound page one stage pick.
Opinion: Pokemon Stadium one gone or Rock and Fire gone (maybe toggle which modes it uses, with options to fight the whole game on any). All doubles stages placed on page 2 in their own row.

6. Hate to be one of these guys, but maybe Nerf Fox.
Don't flame me! I only want to nerf his recovery and maybe some vertical kill power, keeping his speed the same is imperative to Fox player's game feel.

 

[Riukanojutsu]

-Complete removal of lylat cruise
-Pichu
-"complete" roster
-some balance tweaks
-Skins for most characters
-rebalancing some stage
-hot seat mode a la vigilante

 

[Seagull Joe]

In the ideal version, Reggie would be a playable character.

 

[The_NZA]

-Complete removal of lylat cruise
-Pichu
-"complete" roster
-some balance tweaks
-Skins for most characters
-rebalancing some stage
-hot seat mode a la vigilante

I like lylat as a CP against certain recovery types. Like Zelda, or Roy for example.

 

[Bent 00]

Have either of the following things been addressed yet?

- Fix the glitch(?) that makes you waste a jump when trying to do a short-hopped aerial:

Spoiler

This might have to do with me being used to 6 frames of Buffer, but whenever I try to do a short-hopped down air by hitting up on the Control Stick and then down on the C Stick, my character just instantly wastes his second jump instead, about 90% of the time.

- Change Snake's side taunt:

Spoiler

One more thought on Snake's taunts, specifically side taunt: I think it should be the old Project M 2.5 up taunt, where he put a hand to his chin and said, "Good" / "Tasty" / "Not even close", versus "Colonel, Mission Accomplished". The old up taunt was quicker and more taunt-y, while the current side taunt is longer, and already a victory animation. Besides, the mission isn't accomplished until the match is won! I suggest putting "Good" and "Not even close" back in. It would be nice if left/right taunt shared the same animation, but left yielded "Good" and right yielded "Not even close".

 

[Zekk]

New Characters
Shadow ( Not a clone)
Zora ( legend of Zelda)
Alt. Costumes

 

[PhantasyStar]

Y'all tripping. I want tornado on hyrule 64, and no more nerfs.

 

[arcticfox8]

Charizard buff
New characters
Charizard buff
Some swaggy costumes
Charizard buff
Maybe a new AT?
Charizard buff
Working single player modes
Charizard buff
More special modes?
For the love of Helix buff Charizard

 

[TimeSmash]

Charizard buff
New characters
Charizard buff
Some swaggy costumes
Charizard buff
Maybe a new AT?
Charizard buff
Working single player modes
Charizard buff
More special modes?
For the love of Helix buff Charizard

I wonder if this guy likes Charizard

 

[Ninjamo]

I would be happy with the inclusion of all the stages from SSB64 and Melee. You can keep the Brawl stages.

 

[G O L E M]

Not trying to start **** but just put in automatic L-cancelling, for real. Playing this game hurts my ****ing fingers, and having to press a button before you land after every attack is ****ing stupid when you can just cut the landing lag.

And get the Smash 3 modelers to upgrade the models in that style, they look ****ing great compared to Brawls schlock

 

[Rongunshu]

Will they even put more characters if they put pichu? That would seem it'd be rather difficult to put even more characters than what it's supposed to have.

What I would honestly like would be more alternate costumes, they are pretty freaking cool and I would like some for the other characters (I.E. Maybe a Dark Samus costume or melee style ganon).

 

[TimeSmash]

It would be nice to see a Zelda alternate costume.
AND THE RETURN OF POKE FLOATS

 

[Bean Yak]

I think that PM is perfectly fine with where it's at, minus fine tuned balancing. ~40 totally unique characters, plenty of good stages, and we don't need much more content than it already has. You could consider adding content such as new game modes and whatever, but I'm satisfied with it because I really only enjoy the competition in the game. Minor things I would tweak, though:

• light shielding, maybe, and if possible
• A more organized stage list: The game itself just sort of throws the more balanced stages on the first page and the lessed balanced ones on the second page. I think that the PMBR should explicitly list stages and categorize them with "banned in doubles", "counterpick", etc. There are textures or whatever that do this in game, but I think those are unofficial and there are still some totally banned stages on the first page.
• Is it too late to change the physics of the game? I've always found that melee feels a ton better than PM, and I'm not sure why, but it has something to do with the physics and feel of the game. That's probably the only reason that I still play melee over PM.

 

[The_NZA]

I think that PM is perfectly fine with where it's at, minus fine tuned balancing. ~40 totally unique characters, plenty of good stages, and we don't need much more content than it already has. You could consider adding content such as new game modes and whatever, but I'm satisfied with it because I really only enjoy the competition in the game. Minor things I would tweak, though:

• light shielding, maybe, and if possible
• A more organized stage list: The game itself just sort of throws the more balanced stages on the first page and the lessed balanced ones on the second page. I think that the PMBR should explicitly list stages and categorize them with "banned in doubles", "counterpick", etc. There are textures or whatever that do this in game, but I think those are unofficial and there are still some totally banned stages on the first page.
• Is it too late to change the physics of the game? I've always found that melee feels a ton better than PM, and I'm not sure why, but it has something to do with the physics and feel of the game. That's probably the only reason that I still play melee over PM.

I find it most evident with Cfalcon. He feels WAY more fluid in Melee. I've played PM pretty much exclusively for the past year and a half, and I broke out cfalon in melee the other day. It felt so natural in a way PM falcon never feels.

 

[net1234]

melee soundpack!

 

[MechWarriorNY]

I find it most evident with Cfalcon. He feels WAY more fluid in Melee. I've played PM pretty much exclusively for the past year and a half, and I broke out cfalon in melee the other day. It felt so natural in a way PM falcon never feels.

Give it time, they'll make it feel similar. Remember they test it, they don't like it either lol