The Ideal "4.0"

[NWRL]

"People would rather burn Mother Theresa at the stake than tune Fox/Falco"

 

[PsionicSabreur]

If they haven't won a single PM tournament in ages, that inherently means there's not nearly as bad of a matchup discrepancy as people think there is. Like I said, bandwagon.

It only takes one even matchup out of 40 to lose the top spot (Pit, for example). There might not be as much of a discrepancy as is common belief, but even a minor discrepancy can merit minor nerfs.

Also, I can't say that I understand why you've decided to bring bandwagons into this. If you'd actually paid attention to what I wrote, you'd have read this, first thing:

Not to say I think Fox and Falco are deserving of nerfs, necessarily

I'm not even disagreeing with you on the subject of nerfs; I think that Fox is quite beatable for a satisfactory portion of the cast, as far as top tiers go. That's not "bandwagon mentality," unless you're placing yourself amongst the bandwagoneers.

Now, I do think that Fox and Falco could stand to be a little more balanced, but it's hard to make educated changes when matchups aren't completely understood yet, so I'm not pushing for changes at the moment.
So, it's been established that balancing the entire cast is going to require investigation of each individual matchup. You are effectively excluding Fox and Falco from this assessment by only citing tournament results, which only give a generic overview and are swayed by many additional factors. That is my difference of opinion.

You're assuming that because a claim has been poorly argued, or a fallacy has been made (in this case, "bandwagon" mentality)

I am more than allowed to take your side in an argument without it being a bandwagon effect, especially since I disagree on some levels.
Perhaps it seemed poorly argued because you expected that I agreed with you entirely, and was thus representing your argument poorly? Hopefully I've been more transparent with this post.

 

[Vashimus]

I am more than allowed to take your side in an argument without it being a bandwagon effect, especially since I disagree on some levels.
Perhaps it seemed poorly argued because you expected that I agreed with you entirely, and was thus representing your argument poorly? Hopefully I've been more transparent with this post.

I wasn't specifically speaking about you. I only brought up "bandwagon" because he brought it up and I don't like the term.

The point was that while appealing to popularity is a bad basis for argument, that doesn't automatically mean that the claim is wrong.

 

[TimeSmash]

A bit off topic, but the lag that ZSS has after her DownB jump is pretty bad (aside from reacting with the STF kick), and can really hinder her recovery. Would shortening this lag be too much of a buff?

 

[Kally Wally]

buffer? go back to brawl . PM is not going to add a buffer mechanic considering you can already turn one on if you don't like timing things correctly.

I'm a bit late but... you do realize that C-stick buffering is already a feature in the game, right?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=auuxj7hq0LA&t=3m6s

 

[Phaiyte]

It only takes one even matchup out of 40 to lose the top spot (Pit, for example). There might not be as much of a discrepancy as is common belief, but even a minor discrepancy can merit minor nerfs.

Also, I can't say that I understand why you've decided to bring bandwagons into this. If you'd actually paid attention to what I wrote, you'd have read this, first thing:

I'm not even disagreeing with you on the subject of nerfs; I think that Fox is quite beatable for a satisfactory portion of the cast, as far as top tiers go. That's not "bandwagon mentality," unless you're placing yourself amongst the bandwagoneers.

Now, I do think that Fox and Falco could stand to be a little more balanced, but it's hard to make educated changes when matchups aren't completely understood yet, so I'm not pushing for changes at the moment.
So, it's been established that balancing the entire cast is going to require investigation of each individual matchup. You are effectively excluding Fox and Falco from this assessment by only citing tournament results, which only give a generic overview and are swayed by many additional factors. That is my difference of opinion.



I am more than allowed to take your side in an argument without it being a bandwagon effect, especially since I disagree on some levels.
Perhaps it seemed poorly argued because you expected that I agreed with you entirely, and was thus representing your argument poorly? Hopefully I've been more transparent with this post.

The bandwagon effect comes from all the people playing this game while still riding Melee's ****, basically thinking that this is the same game. People apparently don't understand that this is a different game now. People that are newer to this game aren't going to realize that the Melee vets are full of **** because their first thought is "oh that guy used to or does play Melee so he obviously knows what he's talking about because really this game is just Melee", which is wrong by all means.

Pit is not the only one to have toppled Fox either. I just want to see some justification for the cries that shout "OP! OP!". Tournament results are the best place for that, because people are playing with money on the line and the top players are likely not going to **** around with a different character if they can "just pick Fox and win". Except for Isai in 64 because I'm pretty sure it's his life goal to win Apex with every character.

 

[Daftatt]

I'm a bit late but... you do realize that C-stick buffering is already a feature in the game, right?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=auuxj7hq0LA&t=3m6s

oh snap, I totally got learned, thought he was talking about something else.

 

[Doser]

I had forgotten to mention this, but I really want to be able to wavedash OOS, as opposed to how we currently have to drop our shield before wavedashing.

 

[Daftatt]

I had forgotten to mention this, but I really want to be able to wavedash OOS, as opposed to how we currently have to drop our shield before wavedashing.

I thought you can jump out of shield? which means you should be able to WD out of shield. Do I have this wrong?

 

[Phan7om]

I thought you can jump out of shield? which means you should be able to WD out of shield. Do I have this wrong?

Yes its totally possible to WD oos since you can jump... I mean thats how ive always done it.



Anyway, to add onto my "speech" about what I do and dont want for PM. Here is a couple more things

1. Sound Effects
~Some characters like Mario, Samus, etc. has their SE from Melee. I want at least all of the Melee cast to have their Melee SE

2. GnW Hammer RnG
~I sorta came up with a way to get rid of the RnG on GnW's Hammer which probably could buff him to be extremely viable. I think the #s should count up, either by use or by timer (like Wario's fart). Just a quick little thought that popped into my head when thinking about GnW.

 

[Kally Wally]

Brawl considers both triggers to be the same button (except when it doesn't,) which means that the dual-trigger WD OOS method that a lot of Melee players use doesn't work.

Obviously, that means it's impossible to WD OOS.

 

[Daftatt]

Yes its totally possible to WD oos since you can jump... I mean thats how ive always done it.



Anyway, to add onto my "speech" about what I do and dont want for PM. Here is a couple more things

1. Sound Effects
~Some characters like Mario, Samus, etc. has their SE from Melee. I want at least all of the Melee cast to have their Melee SE

2. GnW Hammer RnG
~I sorta came up with a way to get rid of the RnG on GnW's Hammer which probably could buff him to be extremely viable. I think the #s should count up, either by use or by timer (like Wario's fart). Just a quick little thought that popped into my head when thinking about GnW.

all the nopes on throwing out RNG, queuing up a 9 would be totally broken nomatter what.

 

[Phan7om]

Brawl considers both triggers to be the same button (except when it doesn't,) which means that the dual-trigger WD OOS method that a lot of Melee players use doesn't work.

Obviously, that means it's impossible to WD OOS.

I mean, I guess there is still something I dont understand about it... but I mean it is possible, the technique might be performed differently, but you still would get the same effect.

all the nopes on throwing out RNG, queuing up a 9 would be totally broken nomatter what.

Welp... I tried. I mean its possible to avoid and everything since it would be totally telegraphed. I just feel it needs to be changed somehow, thats all.
----
Also on a side note, what is the deal for wanting Isaac? I mean, I dont want him... but im not hating on anyone who does. Its just why him over anyone else? (I see other characters, but Isaac pops up the most.)

 

[Xinc]

Marth getting a small buff somewhere to put him a bit more on par with the folks back home, same with Ganondorf.
Level 8 being Level 9, Level 9 being uber mode

 

[Daftatt]

Marth getting a small buff somewhere to put him a bit more on par with the folks back home, same with Ganondorf.
Level 8 being Level 9, Level 9 being uber mode

what would you buff on marth? maybe grow the hitbox on his dolphin slash to help him recover. Roy sure does have a crazy easy time with his dolphin slash right now.

 

[Mr.Random]

I shouldn't have brought up Fox. We need to stay on topic.

 

[Mew2King]

i just money matched a random charizard here in tennesse, he 2 stock me, i go falco, almost 4 stock him back, then mewtwo 2-3 stock him

fox is the most overrated char in this game by far, BY FAR; I wouldn't use him if I didn't already have 10+ years logged into him from melee already. He's WORTHLESS when up throw Uair isn't a combo on a character

 

[lordvaati]

Give Sheik back her damn tether.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Marth getting a small buff somewhere to put him a bit more on par

Maybe if you do neutral-b and quickly press some other button (dunno which) before the move starts, you get brawl shieldbreaker for extra range
Just an idea...

 

[Phan7om]

i just money matched a random charizard here in tennesse, he 2 stock me, i go falco, almost 4 stock him back, then mewtwo 2-3 stock him

fox is the most overrated char in this game by far, BY FAR; I wouldn't use him if I didn't already have 10+ years logged into him from melee already. He's WORTHLESS when up throw Uair isn't a combo on a character

What Ive been telling people from the beginning. Fox is very overrated, yet people still put him at #1, or at least top 5. I would like to see your "tier list" for this game M2k and/or what they can to to buff the "weaker" characters... just from what you know about smash, I feel it would be pretty accurate.

 

[Xinc]

I'd probably extend the range of his up-b a bit or aid his recovery. Maybe a bit more power with his nontipped smashes seeing he can't kill properly once the percentage gets too high.

 

[Doser]

Brawl considers both triggers to be the same button (except when it doesn't,) which means that the dual-trigger WD OOS method that a lot of Melee players use doesn't work.

Obviously, that means it's impossible to WD OOS.

You do realize that dropping your shield before wavedashing means you are not wavedashing OUT OF SHIELD. I guess this concept is beyond you, and you'd rather just mock melee players.

 

[Denthorn]

Brawl considers both triggers to be the same button (except when it doesn't,) which means that the dual-trigger WD OOS method that a lot of Melee players use doesn't work.

Obviously, that means it's impossible to WD OOS.

The issue he's complaining about is legitimate and a problem that the PMBR has acknowledged many times before as something they want to fix because it isn't working properly. Technically he wasn't even complaining about it, he just stated that he'd like to be able to do it that way. I don't see why you take such offense to someone wanting to not have to completely relearn that muscle memory for such a core and simple part of defensive play.

Also, Doser, one thing I've been trying to do more of lately to address the same problem is shield without pressing the button down all the way. So like, hold it down till just before it clicks. You can still get an air dodge on the other shoulder button so long as the first one isn't fully pressed.

Also also, to stay in line with the thread topic, I personally wouldn't mind Mewtwo's down-b having an actual hitbox. That'd be great. There's really not much else I'd want to change that wouldn't require a crapton of work rebalancing everything (aka nerf the **** out of practically every recovery in the game).

 

[Kally Wally]

I'm just playing around, I know it's a legitimate concern. I was harsh, though, sorry about that.

 

[Paradoxium]

i just money matched a random charizard here in tennesse, he 2 stock me, i go falco, almost 4 stock him back, then mewtwo 2-3 stock him

fox is the most overrated char in this game by far, BY FAR; I wouldn't use him if I didn't already have 10+ years logged into him from melee already. He's WORTHLESS when up throw Uair isn't a combo on a character

LOL its funny how quickly people change there opinions, i used to babble on about how i thought Fox and Falco had bad match-ups in this game, i also remember saying Pit beat fox a while ago because he could gimp there recovery. Then everyone was saying Fox's recovery was amazing and he was God tier and how he took no skill. I remember those arguments where i thought Fox wasn't the best and everyone started saying his playstyle was boring and that no character even comes close.

The second Armada beats Mew2King everyone changes there minds, after getting bashed on my thoughts on Fox for so long i just assumed i was wrong and bought into the whole "Fox is op" mindset, thats the last time im believing all of you people, Fox does have bad match-ups in this game

Marth is better than Fox , get at me

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Fox does have bad matchups but Pit isn't one of them M2K's combo DI wasn't the best because it is kind of unintuitive and Armada is just amazing. The Fox vs Pit is even imho.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Melee physics

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

My game mode that I would like to see is a Stock Stamina mode. Sort of an ode to typical fighting games. I think it would be awesome because you could still get early kills by knocking them off stage and it allows for great comebacks. I'm sure there would have to be some sort of global knockback reduction in the mode. Something like where the knockback would be half the normal back.

 

[Doser]

Fox does have bad matchups but Pit isn't one of them M2K's combo DI wasn't the best because it is kind of unintuitive and Armada is just amazing. The Fox vs Pit is even imho.

Which matchups do you believe fox loses?

 

[Phaiyte]

You do realize that dropping your shield before wavedashing means you are not wavedashing OUT OF SHIELD. I guess this concept is beyond you, and you'd rather just mock melee players.

You can wavedash out of shield just fine by using light press.

 

[BigHairyFart]

My wishlist:
-Song selection for Skyloft, including Zelda II's Palace theme
-Recolors for Outset TL
-More recolors for Hero of Time Link
-Alt costumes for Samus
-Great Bay returning as a stage, with at least two songs to choose from(also inculding the Palace theme)
-Character-specific target test
-Race to the finish
-Either fix SSE or add in a shorter, Melee-ish Adventure Mode.
-Samus grapple extender(if possible)
-Melee tethers(I never played Melee, but I think it would help gameplay)
-A kick-ass new menu
-A re-done "How to Play" video. Not replacing the current one, so that you can give your friends a quick rundown of the basics of general Smash Bros. or P:M, depending on their new-ness to it.

 

[Yurya]

Falco is better than Fox in Melee and even more so in PM.

And I have learned to Wavedash OoS just fine even without Lightpress.

 

[TroperCase]

Keep in mind this is my own ideal version and our group while good and playing with no items doesn't play at a competitive level.

Pichu

I think the M team could do a great job bringing Pichu's concept it to the level of the other fighters like they're doing with others, and bring enjoyment in playing an originally unfun character.

By having power and priority near the level of Pika, faster speed, and good range, while being a smaller and nimbler target, Pichu can make up for its lightness and signature self-damage trait. If Pichu needs further buffs, perhaps some of Pichu's attacks could come with dodge frames or whatever similar mechanic would work best.

Pichu's self-damage encourages a playstyle of needling the opponent with weaker moves, and making sure the stronger ones hit their mark to make up for the damage taken. It can be made less burdensome by lessening the amount of self-damage or having better combo potential into the electric moves. Pichu's aerial moves do self-damage, so they need to be made sufficiently useful to make up for that.

Tails

While this would be difficult to implement, controversial, and fairly unlikely to be in M any time soon, Tails would be in my ideal update, as a semi-clone of Sonic, with the same B-Down spin dash and at least one other spinning special. The B-up would be his classic copter move, with a few tail attack moves in his set, a move or two using the Miles Electric, etc.

Balancing

The direction taken in balance has been great in M, having more of a push towards buffing rather than nerfing. I'm look forward to it getting even better.

One thing in particular: for moves that are deemed too weak, but would be too strong if spammed, make the move strong, but subject it to a bigger than normal stale moves penalty, with visual change to know it's being overused.

Items

Items are a pretty big part of the original game, but they don't see much use since they're luck based. I'd love to see creative ways to see items without the luck they bring. Examples of this:

• Players start each life with a predetermined weapon, perhaps even specific to the character if items were balanced for this
• Items always come in pairs, and have a timer counting down showing when and where they're going to drop
• Items, especially Pokeballs and Assist Trophies that are rewarded to a player for doing something such as taking control of the stage.
• Balancing of item effects and throwing power so they don't overpower the rest of the fighting, break after enough use, etc

Even better would be a setting where an item match like one of the above played once every few matches. Of course, some characters benefit from items more than others, but perhaps there would be ways to balance this as well.

2P Classic Hack and More Reliable AI

Well, my "Ideal" 4.0 would be for up to 3 players to co-op in Classic. With 4 players, we like to play 2v2, ffa, or a little 1v1 tourney, but with 3 players it's a little more awkward. Playing 3v3, 3vGiant, 3vTeam, etc matches against the CPU would be a nice diversion, though it would require having 6 characters loaded at once and highly reliable AI to really work.

So, more realistic but I can understand not high priority would be a 2P co-op Classic mode. Brawl has this for All-Star, but not Classic. 2v2, 2vGiant, 2v2 Metal, and 2vTeam would all be fun if the AI was reliable enough for it.

Currently, the AI dies early due to the new rules and fast drop speed. I can understand it would be very difficult to compensate for this due to the way the AI was originally coded, and also, the core design of Project M is for vs multiplayer. Still, I have seen that the team put some effort into it, as the AI shows excellent skill when it's not faltering.

Stages

I don't have much to say here because the current selection is pretty great (we always end up playing Hyrule and Battlefield most of the time anyway). A setting to change hazard intensity (or turn it off) would be good, unfortunate that the Smash games don't have that setting. I like the stages with the slow platforms like Dracula's Castle, so more of those would be good.

 

[Bambi_]

• Pichu (I have this silly changelog I made if you want to look at it)
• Balance tweaks on some of the currently weaker characters (more focus on buffs than nerfs)
• The return of single player modes
• The ability to put tilts on your c-stick (There's the "attack" setting that you can put on the c-stick. It uses f-tilt, u-smash, d-smash, and jab if you get the perfect angle. What the hell.)
• General "polish." All the things they've broken become fixed, make it look like something you could release to the general public who would wonder why Charizard doesn't have a final smash and why slow motion does this

This would pretty much complete it in my eyes. From there it could still be improved, but it would have achieved a point where it would seem done.

 

[UltimateWario]

More costumes, a new Clone Engine character to generate hype (one that isn't Pichu, I mean a NEW one, most preferably Isaac, since he'll be easier and less likely to get a C&D than Ridley), and a fixed Luigi's Mansion (or a delicious Bowser's Castle) instead of the awkwardly out-of-place Dracula's Castle. Don't get me wrong, I like Castlevania, but it seems a little unprofessional to have a stage for series from a company that isn't even represented within Smash.

Other than that, I'm pretty happy with what we had, and, as I'm becoming quite adept with replacing/adding stages, costumes, and songs, it's like I get to update Project M whenever I want.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Falco is better than Fox in Melee and even more so in PM.

And I have learned to Wavedash OoS just fine even without Lightpress.

No he is not >_>

 

[Ali Baba 177]

CPU levels actually being accurate and really good, as in level 9's being pro status

 

[Deleted member]

Stealing from what @ UltimateWario said, I think that Dracula's Castle needs to be removed for an area like Bowser's Castle or revert it back to Luigi's Mansion. I like the stage, but it's horribly out-of-place since Castlevania isn't represented in Smash in any shape, way, or form. That and maybe remove Skyloft in favor of another stage.

Also, I think that the clone engine characters should be brand new characters rather than… a character like Pichu.

 

[Yurya]

CPU levels actually being accurate and really good, as in level 9's being pro status

That would take alot and I mean alot of work. IBM's Big Blue only dominated Chess because of the simplified variables; Smash has more moving pieces than Chess and the PMBR doesn't have the resources of IBM.

 

[TechnoSyndrome]

It's not something I think the team would be interested in doing but I'd love if they recreated the event mode from Melee to replace Brawl's, making changes where necessary (replacing stages that AREN'T in Project M with stages that are, integration of Brawl newcomers where it makes sense, new events for the few that just wouldn't work in Project M, etc.) Brawl's event mode was a huge disappointment because I had a ton of fun in Melee's, and I don't think the difference was just Melee playing so much better than Brawl.

I'd also like to see a few more casual stages from Melee, (Brinstar Depths and Pokefloats are my top choices) the return of stage hazards for stages brought back from 64/Melee for Project M, and converting the WarioWare level back into the Brawl version. I'm fine with all the other stage changes, but WarioWare was a super fun level for casual play and now it's just another boring stage with platforms. Also like others have said the Dracula's Castle stage is really jarring, and I think it would make more sense to take the layout of that stage and re-theme it back into a Luigi's Mansion stage. Maybe move the mansion into the background while keeping the stage and platforms like they are in DC.

And finally I'd love to just see more characters and alt costumes included. The team did a really good job picking them so I don't have any specific requests outside of MGS1 Snake.

For the competitive focused stuff I trust the team to make the right decisions. Project M works both as a competitive and a casual "fix" for Brawl, so I'd just really love to see the casual side of Smash get the kind of attention the competitive side is. Maybe not quite as much since the target audience is obviously competitive players, but more than it's getting now.