The 'How to deal with specific enemy moves' thread. Discussion#6: Diddy's Bananas

[MrEh]

Chasing after Olimar is like chasing after Yoshi.

Don't do it. It's a trap.

 

[Rogue Pit]

Simple, zone him with minimum lag Fairs and jabs, try to get him above you. SHAD utilt should work, or if theyre mind is set on something take advantage. That was extremely general and ill elaborate.

As you probably know many players have played brawl for hours. They are use to the mechanics and probably moveset and speed of characters. Olimars in the case will see you jump, most likely shield and react to you lag with grabs at low percents, like majority of players. If you jump, theyre thinking okay im going to shield grab, or okay im going to pivot grab. In the event of a shield, if you fast fall utilt, you completely destroy set encoded time patterns the olimar has remembered catching them offguard with an attack 6 frames later when usually you would be in the air. 6 frames because utilt takes 2 and normal landing lag in melee was 4 frames so correct me if im wrong.
This has worked hundreds of times for me adding 16% damage than an applicable followup, preferably uair. The chance of succeeding with this is higher than not succeeding, so its useful to a degree since (1)people havent seen this before. (2)If used at right moments people wont adapt so quickly because it is so out of the ordinary.
This is the same reason, full hop attack, jump WoI, attack works. Basically screws up timing.

O forgot.... If you see them try to pivot grab DI back, if u zone correctly you shouldnt get grabbed.

^types with a wiimote.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Bait the Olimar into performing a grab, normally if you try approaching with F-airs, Olimar is goin to wait for you then grab you. This is where you trick him, stay back, shoot him with an arrow if you can.
You have to approach him eventually however since Pikmin stop our arrows, but with Olimar's grab range with Pit's lack of melee range, it isnt an easy task.
If you want to go into the air, bait Olimar and use Up-B in midair, hoping Olimar will grab before you attack him.

 

[Nikenick]

The summary about Marth's side B has been made. C'mon, I want more people to discuss Olimar's ground game!

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

Well, here is my tip that is very similar to anything dealing with grab spammy people.

When on the ground, use your moves that starts and end fast so that you can do very quick combos that have little lag in between each moves, such as jab and AR (I understand that AR shouldn't be used as much as jab though...). What people do wrong in these match ups is that they attack the person, the guy shields, you're then left vulnerable with whatever botched lag you got and you get grabbed. By using and abusing the quick attacks like nairing, jab, and AR (if your going to be nairing, make sure that you time the nair so that you land right after you finish the nair so that you can go right to an uptilt shieldpoke without being grabbed in the window of time of finishing the nair and landing. If you can't really do this well, nair across since they can't really change the direction they are facing in a shield without having to unsheild and turn around, which can take enough time for us to punish.) you keep yourself protected by continuous hitboxes so that if they do try to shield grab, they'll get hit by the hitboxes that are still being thrown out by these moves before they can grab. You should also use these moves because they are Pit's base shield eaters because grabbers revolve their gameplay around their shield. When you eat it too much, they'll have a harder time landing a grab and being able to safely return to it without risk of shield breaking and poking.

If you are going to be in the air, do continuous approaching rising and retreating dairs on them until you see them grab. When you see them grab and miss, land an AR on them so that even if they do get their shield out in time, they can't punish you from aerial lag since AR is eating their shield. Since AR has a wind push after ending, if they do get out of i,t you mess up the grab spacing for them if you end it right when they escape.

Avoid using the slower moves like dsmash and fsmash until you have gotten them to a higher percent (hit the 100%s) and see a reliable window of lag that you can punish with.

 

[kown]

when i fight olimars i constantly jab. pikmin have a low priority so jabbing will kill them or null the move.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca3KoHUKiD0

 

[Valuno]

A tip about olimar's grabs.... if you get grabbed at a low percent, mash like crazy while the pikmin is pulling you in.... you'll buffer a bunch of inputs and probably break free before he can grab combo you to like 50% x_x

You can also attack through olimar's grab pikmin it's weird.... olimar has no grab armor because of this from my observations.

About pikmin toss... just jab them away, don't sh nair to get rid of them, olimar can just grab you when you land then (idk how this works but it does). Try to arrow spam olimar when he's low on pikmin, he'll be forced to pluck more, so you can punish that with some arrows. ^_^ Punish whiffed grabs with arrows as well.

Olimar's tilts aren't a very big threat, just DI out of his utilt, and jump out of his dtilt. Shieldgrab ftilt. It doesn't matter too much anyways since olimars don't use too many tilts lol.

I got nothing on countering his smash attacks other than attacking through them. (and that doesn't even work too often because some attacks like his usmash have like this invisible hitbox you can't attack)

 

[Nikenick]

New Discussion is up. And yeah I'm a bit late with this thread, sorry about that. *insert Johns here*
Well, discuss =D

 

[Byuusan]

Perfect/Powershield Samus Z-air?

tbh i hever had an issue with Samus Grappling beam before, I Generally react fast enough to be able to either power shield it or Mirror shield it.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Try approaching aggressively while shielding when needed. Since Z-air can destroy arrows, you gotta be more cautious. I rather not camp since Samus can use Missile combinations along with Z-airs, so maybe aggressive approaches will stop Samus from keep on using Z-airs. And if Samus tries Z-airing outta Airdodge while she's caught in a Pit SH N-air, you'll win, but just make sure u close in quickly, or continuously get pelted by the attack.

 

[Coffee™]

I don't see how you can honestly discuss her Zair much. You either stay out of the range of it and out camp her or approach her poweshield or just normal shield it and dash attack.

Thats pretty much the entire discussion right there.

 

[Crystanium]

I don't see how you can honestly discuss her Zair much. You either stay out of the range of it and out camp her or approach her poweshield or just normal shield it and dash attack.

Thats pretty much the entire discussion right there.

You're right.

Let's discuss Falco's Blaster now. Just power-shield it, jump high enough to avoid it, or just use the Mirror Shield or Angel Ring. There's nothing else to discuss. Let's move on.

 

[teh_pwns_the]

Simple, zone him with minimum lag Fairs and jabs, try to get him above you. SHAD utilt should work, or if theyre mind is set on something take advantage. That was extremely general and ill elaborate.

As you probably know many players have played brawl for hours. They are use to the mechanics and probably moveset and speed of characters. Olimars in the case will see you jump, most likely shield and react to you lag with grabs at low percents, like majority of players. If you jump, theyre thinking okay im going to shield grab, or okay im going to pivot grab. In the event of a shield, if you fast fall utilt, you completely destroy set encoded time patterns the olimar has remembered catching them offguard with an attack 6 frames later when usually you would be in the air. 6 frames because utilt takes 2 and normal landing lag in melee was 4 frames so correct me if im wrong.
This has worked hundreds of times for me adding 16% damage than an applicable followup, preferably uair. The chance of succeeding with this is higher than not succeeding, so its useful to a degree since (1)people havent seen this before. (2)If used at right moments people wont adapt so quickly because it is so out of the ordinary.
This is the same reason, full hop attack, jump WoI, attack works. Basically screws up timing.

O forgot.... If you see them try to pivot grab DI back, if u zone correctly you shouldnt get grabbed.

^types with a wiimote.

this was probably the most coherent, intelligent thing i have ever read on the boards, actually thought out no bias, anyways enough of that though

i vote for falco blaster as well, z-air is just something you learn to deal with

 

[Coffee™]

You're right.

Let's discuss Falco's Blaster now. Just power-shield it, jump high enough to avoid it, or just use the Mirror Shield or Angel Ring. There's nothing else to discuss. Let's move on.

Cute.....

What else is there to be dicussed about Zair? It's a pretty linear move in general and not that much of a threat to Pit as a character that isn't forced to approach Samus. If you want diversity, Mirror Shield it for some laughs or shield it and shoot an arrow. Its not a move with a lot of depth to it, unlike Falco's Lazers.

 

[drag0nfeather]

Maybe we should review those matches of Undrdog (Jason?) vs. Samus (Sauna). Does Sauna Zair there at all?

Also, if we're talking about Zairs in general, you'll definitely want to see the match of Sagemoon vs. Chip (Toon Link).

 

[Nikenick]

Meh we'll change discussions in 2 or 3 days then, going to make the summary of Olimar's ground game now.
I honestly need more suggestions, should falco's lazers be next or was that a joke?

 

[Crystanium]

Cute.....

What else is there to be dicussed about Zair? It's a pretty linear move in general and not that much of a threat to Pit as a character that isn't forced to approach Samus. If you want diversity, Mirror Shield it for some laughs or shield it and shoot an arrow. Its not a move with a lot of depth to it, unlike Falco's Lazers.

The point is, there really isn't much to discuss of any attack. Same with Falco's Blaster.

 

[kown]

Zair isnt a problem....ARROWS > ZAIR. /the end

 

[Coffee™]

The point is, there really isn't much to discuss of any attack. Same with Falco's Blaster.

If you feel there are no attacks worth discussing you could just..... not post.

 

[Phaigne]

I'm loving this little back-and-forth. Anyways, I don't know much about Z-air, but it seems simple enough to me. Dodge, shield, MS, Camp, or just run in there and smack that armored hoe. It's slightly challenging to get past, but nothing insurmountable. Worst comes to worse, take the hit and cry about it.

 

[Crystanium]

If you feel there are no attacks worth discussing you could just..... not post.

I could, but I'm just poking at you for the lack of discussion. But hey, I main Samus, and Pit is my secondary, and I've played against Samus' and Pits. What do I know?

 

[Coffee™]

I could, but I'm just poking at you for the lack of discussion. But hey, I main Samus, and Pit is my secondary, and I've played against Samus' and Pits. What do I know?

I know your secondary is Pit. I've seen you post here from time to time before but either way I don't see how there is much to be discussed about this particular move. Since you actually main Samus and second Pit don't you think you would be the ideal person to head this discussion instead of just poking around the current lack thereof?

 

[Valuno]

I, in general just tend to powershield Samus's zair as well as all of her other projectiles. It works pretty well.

 

[Crystanium]

I know your secondary is Pit. I've seen you post here from time to time before but either way I don't see how there is much to be discussed about this particular move. Since you actually main Samus and second Pit don't you think you would be the ideal person to head this discussion instead of just poking around the current lack thereof?

Well, when I was Pit and I was brawling with a friend who mains Samus, I had a difficult time approaching him. I could use Arrows, but he'd air-dodge and get close, and I'd get hit with z-air. I did use the Mirror Shield, but I wasn't able to do anything there. :/

And it's Valuno! Yay! Valuno's Pit is pro!

 

[KY_Des]

Shield and keep running towards Samus or run away and shoot an arrow. Someone could experiment with AR. If it clanks with Samus' Zair, you could jus AR at it, causing both moves to cancel, and then jus keep closing in.

Problem with this is that clanking is caused by priority, but there's no priority in the air and everything is then considered by range, so I dont think this will work. Just a thought I had.

 

[Byuusan]

Can we discuss about Diddy Banana's/Ground game next? :o

 

[DominusHaven]

Shield the Z-air, counter with a lot of arrows, dodge and punish the lag the Z-air leaves after Samus does it.

 

[Rogue Pit]

Zair is predictable, be cautious, PS the Zair and punish. MSing it can also mess them up if they're in routine.

 

[WingedKnight]

Like people said, shield and punish. Usually a good way to go! XD

 

[Nikenick]

We're going to discuss Diddy's nanerz next, since it's an annoying move.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Try reflecting them if the Diddy is foolish to glidetoss them at you. Do be careful not to be predictable or he may actually throw the naner downward and go to grab you. Use your mindgames against the chimp's.
You can try Angel Ring for this too, for you can slide towards the diddy and either damage him before he throws the naner, or the naner gets reflected. Mirror Shield is less effective since if it is super close to you, but does not reflect the naner, you'll trip, leaving yourself vulnerable.

Now, if you grab a naner, our glidetoss goes super far, so we may not be able to dripple like the chimp can, but we can move across stages quicker. One standard combo is Glidetoss Naner to Pit Dsmash, depending on our distance.
Sometimes, you may be forced to ledgecamp against em if we are under pressure. Just try to keep the monkey from taking control.

Oh yea, if he throws naners from the air, before they land, make em touch Angel Ring to control them.

 

[rinoH]

just angel ring whenever i play other pits with my diddy AR always works against the naners and it messes up glidetossing too

 

[Snopy]

When I play vs a Diddy who uses Nanerz a lot, I simply spam Arrowz like hell. Sometimes I just run towards the edge, grab it and fire even more Arrowz. I like the Forward vs AZ videos a lot, even if they're a bit old. It really showes how u can avoid/handle the nanerz and Diddy in general.

 

[Arzengel]

just angel ring whenever i play other pits with my diddy AR always works against the naners and it messes up glidetossing too

Just stole what i was about to say. Go to jail... xD

 

[Nikenick]

just angel ring whenever i play other pits with my diddy AR always works against the naners and it messes up glidetossing too

Ehm, whenever I do that the Diddy just jumps up and tosses the banana downward so you won't reflect it and trip, then he hits you. You can't just simply Angel Ring and expect the Diddy Kong to throw his banana in it.

 

[Ax00x0]

Not to sound like a mega hothead, but I have loads of experience playing Diddy vs Pit battles-I play Dekar literally everyday.

Diddy's insane'y easy item pick-up ability and good item grab range make using the nannerz against him, a not very effective idea. MS reflects nanerz only back a bit, so you'll only hit them if they are close/aproaching after naner throw. Even then, smarter Diddy's won't roll (which would allow for a free hit, ususally dash attack) but instead just give up, which leaves him invincible. You can try to grab/jab him right after that, but his d-tilt is quicker.

Catching and throwing the nanerz back or possessing them with AR isn'y usually helpful either, since his dash and aforementioned great item grab abilities means he's just catch/or reclaim your banana. I've found it best to just toss them off the stage-it forces them to take out new ones, which can leave them open and put them on the defensive. Actually, the best is to mix it up-throw some off, and at other times, try to punish him by throwing/reflecting them. Mixing it up will cause confusion.

However, if you do decide to try to reflect/punish him with his own nanerz, you have to be smart about it. Pit's impressive glidetoss doesn't count for much when he'll just block/dodge the banana, punish you, then re-claim it. Glidetossing the banana up is the worst, NEVER do that. If you can hit him right AFTER he trips on his own nanerz, you'll get a for sure hit, but otherwise, if they stand up, you'll usually get punished. The best is to throw it down, or short-hop throw it down and then stand your ground, or throw it down when you're close to him-that'll give you the best chance to get a hit.

Don't rely on reflecting with MS and AR too much-both have too much cooldown lag, so the Diddy will usually be ready to attack you with another naner/same naner as soon as you but them away. It really just depends on watching the Diddy's pattern, and reflecting/dodging from there. I've only ever played one Diddy, but as I said, I play Dekar, easily one of the top Diddys, on a daily basis, and his aggressive style can great limit what you do. That's why I caution about trying to use his nanners against him, as it usually just gives him the banana right back.

My 2 cents.

 

[SkyRay]

I didn't have time to read all of the above quite yet, but i thought i might mention Pit's incredible glide-toss if it hasn't been mentioned already.

A glide toss followed up by an attack can prove to be quite helpful.

 

[teh_pwns_the]

for some ideas on how to deal with some nannerz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlG2DJPvino

hmm something i havent seen enough of yet though is catching nannerz with airdodges... seems simple enough but i never see it

 

[Kool Aid]

really helpful. for diddy i would say AR and stay in the air i guess.

 

[Sniper X]

for the nannerz i've discovered (if you can time it right) wingdashing to pick up the nanerz then glide tossing it towards the diddy. That way you arrive almost the same time the banana does so if they dodge they banana you can punish and if the don't dodge then they trip and you can still punish. At least that's how it worked against CPUs. I haven't actually tried it against a human recently since i just started learning ATs