The H2YL Tier List (Version 2)

[chillindude829]

So yeah, we decided it's time to update the tier list. This is based on Singles play only.

Old Tier List: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183918

 

[chinesahh]

even im amazed

 

[SOVAman]

I knew using yoshi would pay off eventually low tier ftw


yay yoshi is out of bottom.

 

[xeleion]

Good stuff Chillen.

 

[TheTantalus]

This is the closest list that i've seen to agreeing with my opinion...

not that my opinion is relevant, but still, good list.

 

[OffTheChain]

CF is too good, what you talking bout n1ggaz?

 

[CT Chia]

wwwwoooooowwwww marth n kirby > rob? ur just favoring all the characters that ur crew uses. with the exception of lucario lol. im surprised ur not makin him god tier

 

[_Yes!_]

ur technically defending a character u use dude...

 

[CT Chia]

haha yea, well thats just what made me notice it at first. but seriously, kirby > rob? no way

 

[JCaesar]

Kirby has fewer bad matchups. I totally agree with that part of the list.

 

[Inui]

Once again, the Smash community doesn't understand ratios of bad matches to good matches well enough to make tier lists as accurate as ones of other communities.

At the very least, this list is much better than the previous one. It seems that a lot of match-up stuff has escaped you guys, though. Like Wario having several nearly unwinnable matches and Falco having waaaaay less bad matches than Dedede.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Once again, the Smash community doesn't understand ratios of bad matches to good matches well enough to make tier lists as accurate as ones of other communities.

At the very least, this list is much better than the previous one. It seems that a lot of match-up stuff has escaped you guys, though. Like Wario having several nearly unwinnable matches and Falco having waaaaay less bad matches than Dedede.

Lots of matchups are still open to interpretation. Can you flawlessly evaluate every matchup in the game?

 

[CT Chia]

yea i dont really think ddd should be third either

 

[Deleted member]

as usual chillin, totally amazing.

 

[Crizthakidd]

rob is def higher than marth

 

[Emblem Lord]

I can flawlessly evaluate every match-up in the game given enough time.

Marth is better then Kirby. R.O.B is debatable, but Marth is far more consistent then him and does better vs the higher tiers overall.

 

[Mew2King]

kirby is not that good, this is so biased toward what your crew uses

 

[CT Chia]

ROB is evenish (or slightly loses to) MK, like 45-55?
ROB goes even or beats Snake (as most people say) 55-45 (maybe 60-40?)
ROB goes even with Dedede 50-50
ROB beats Falco, maybe like 65-35?
ROB loses to GaW, maybe like 40-60?
ROB beats Marth, like 65-35?
ROB beats Kirby, like 60-40 or 55-45

the only chara above him he has a clear disadvantage to is GaW, and besides that the only other matchup not in his favor is MK. Besides like the 2 or so odd matchups he loses to in high tier and lower, ROB generally ***** the rest of the characters when Kirby can have problems with dying far too early from being so late, and ROB is one of the heavier characters in the game. I don't know much about it, but I can't imagine Kirby doing too well on like a.... DK or something, whom ROB has a big advantage over.

edit: nice, m2k agrees with me lol

 

[Emblem Lord]

I somewhat agree on Kirby.

He should be a tad lower. And I would switch Falco with G&W. Although that's personal preference as I think Falco is somewhat overrated and G&W is overall better IMO.

Marth and R.O.B go even. Don't know where you get your facts from. 65/35 is just stupidness.

R.O.B vs MK is 60/40 MK. 55/45 my ***.

Even with Dedede? Maybe. I could see it as Dedede's advantage though.

Even with Falco? Are you positive? I want to check back on the R.O.B match-up thread for that one and see what the the R.O.B community has to say.

 

[Mew2King]

falco wario diddy toon link olimar are too low

 

[Emblem Lord]

Falco is not better then Dedede and Snake.

No effin way.

 

[CT Chia]

I somewhat agree on Kirby.

He should be a tad lower. And I would switch Falco with G&W. Although that's personal preference as I think Falco is somewhat overrated and G&W is overall better IMO.

Marth and R.O.B go even. Don't know where you get your facts from. 65/35 is just stupidness.

R.O.B vs MK is 60/40 MK. 55/45 my ***.

Even with Dedede? Maybe. I could see it as Dedede's advantage though.

Even with Falco? Are you positive? I want to check back on the R.O.B match-up thread for that one and see what the the R.O.B community has to say.

ok i guess i overrated the rob marth matchup a bit lol, but its atleast slightly in robs favor. maybe 55 45
i always though rob lost to ddd slightly but OS claims rob beats ddd lol. i tried it out more and it kind of is even, its just a REALLY annoying match cause u have to camp more than like any other of robs matchups, especially with ledgecamping
i actually dunno what the rob boards stance is on the falco matchup but i dont know if they actually know how to fight falco that well lol, atleast as iv seen when watching such matches like nacker v d1 and stuff. rob can kill falco at 0 by bthrowing him off at the ledge and fairing him once (just have to predict if he recovers high or low, needs 2 fairs if he attempts to recover high at first, but the 2nd one is easy to hit). rob can duck under falco laser spam most of the time lol, but like no one knows that, and falco's CG to dair doesn't really affect rob, he'l just come flying right back lol

i agree with switching falco and gaw (assuming falco is 4 and GaW is 5 lol, i cant see the tier list here at work, for some reason it doesn't load images from photobucket, and i dont even have access control lol). i think ddd is too high

 

[Mew2King]

falco is not better than snake but he is better than ddd

 

[Emblem Lord]

The Marth vs R.O.B match-up...if you want to see the details you should read their match-up thread. They covered it nicely and really put in time going over their match-ups.

I can't see Falco as better then Dedede although they both have some terrible match-ups here and there.

 

[Emblem Lord]

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAA!!!

Ok, now I can see the actual list.

WTF?

Kirby just below Marth?

TL below Fox?

Ok, now I see what M2K means. lol. Decent list overall, but I do see some things I don't agree with. Kirby isn't better then R.O.B though. No way.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Falco can gay a lot of characters with lasers and chain grabs, man. Meanwhile he still has a decent ground and air game. His only real weakness is like, his UpB.

Edit: This thread is moving fast. Disagreements about matchups already.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Falco's killing ability is the worst out of the high level characters. I call that a real weakness.

And he has one mediocre poke. That said, I'm not going to post where I really think he should be.

But his match-ups, move set, and tourney results indicate that 4th place is being pretty generous.

 

[JCaesar]

ROB boards perspective:

ROB vs Marth is very much even.
ROB beats Falco pretty handily (easy gimps on Falco, CG doesn't work on ROB past 20%, Falco cannot deal with ledgecamping whatsoever, etc.)
ROB loses by a fair margin to MK and G&W.
ROB has a slight disadvantage to DDD.
ROB beats Snake 60-40 at least.
ROB vs Kirby hasn't been discussed much but from playing Chu all the time I'd say it's pretty even.

The only other characters that can give ROB trouble are Peach, Zelda, and Pikachu.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thanks JCaesar.

Well, there you go. R.O.B's high level match-ups.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Falco's killing ability is the worst out of the high level characters. I call that a real weakness.

And he has one mediocre poke. That said, I'm not going to post where I really think he should be.

But his match-ups, move set, and tourney results indicate that 4th place is being pretty generous.

You should post your thoughts on Falco's true placement. No one will call the police in disagreement.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Let's get this straight from the start.

Top 7 is MK, Snake, Dedede, Falco, Marth, G&W and R.O.B

No one in the game is close to them. Not Kirby, not Lucario, no one else.

Anyway, this is the order I would do it.

MK
Snake
G&W
Dedede
Marth
Falco
R.O.B

This is much more match-up based though and overall movelist based.

But honestly the order after Snake is pretty debatable. Although I think R.O.B should always be last.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Sensible list. GW third?

 

[Emblem Lord]

He is simple, safe and effective. Only really weakness is his light weight and lack of range on some moves. But his rushdown/shield pressure is awesome and his d-tilt gives him an amazing poke to work with. he can camp if he needs too and has the bucket to deal with alot of other projectile users.

And he lacks match-ups where he gets rocked like Dedede does.

Pretty sure Dedede has a terribad match-up vs Olimar.

 

[CT Chia]

what is marths matchups with the top tiers?

 

[Emblem Lord]

40/60 to MK
45/55 to Snake
45/55 to Dedede
60/40 to G&W
60/40 to Falco
50/50 to R.O.B

Biggest thing with Marth is he doesn't have any match where he gets outright destroyed like some of the others do and no lower tiered character has advantage on him either unlike alot of the other high characters.

Also this is what I think is the most accurate. It's also what's listed in the Marth boards. But I think the last time the Dedede board had a discussion about Marth vs Dedede they called it even.

 

[CT Chia]

Interesting

im gonna look at it character by character and assign points on matchup (this is not the best way to look at it, but a way none the less)
+1 for good matchup
-1 for bad matchup
0 for even matchup

MK
0 Snake
+1 ROB
+1 GaW
+1 Marth
+1 DDD
+1 Falco
---------------- Total: 5

Snake
+1 GaW
+1 Marth
-1 ROB
-1 DDD
-1 Falco
0 MK
---------------- Total: -1

GaW
-1 Snake
-1 MK
-1 Marth
+1 Falco
+1 ROB
+1 DDD
---------------- Total: 0

Falco
+1 Snake
+1 DDD
-1 GaW
-1 ROB
-1 Marth
-1 MK
---------------- Total: -2

DDD
+1 Snake
-1 GaW
-1 Falco
0 ROB
0 Marth
-1 MK
---------------- Total: -2

ROB
-1 MK
+1 Snake
-1 GaW
+1 Falco
0 DDD
0 Marth
---------------- Total: 0

Marth
-1 Snake
-1 MK
+1 GaW
+1 Falco
0 DDD
0 ROB
---------------- Total: 0

kinda weird when u look at it this way, Snake really isn't as good as he's made out to be. I still think he has the potential to be the best, but with the matchups in the current metagame, he can drop even more. perhaps make it like...

MetaKnight
Marth
GaW
ROB
Snake
Falco
DDD

However if it is decided that ROB does beat Marth (which is highly possible), then Marth GaW ROB is literally a 3 way tie with each one beating one and loosing to the other

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well, this is all metagame you see?

A tournament based tier list merely represents metagame. Characters that are commonly played will lose to other characters that counter them and that allows them to place high. Plus if a character has alot of popularity they will win more tournies as well.

Also keep in mind that in a match-up based list all match-ups are considered equal. In tournament based tier list you have only the top 10 match-ups or less that actually matter since those are then characters being played.

Another factor is how badly does a character get ***** and how badly do they **** everyone else.

Overall Marth is a solid choice. He doesn't get ***** at all really.

BUT

He really doesn't **** anyone else either.

Something to think about.

 

[chillindude829]

lol you guys have no clue how good kirby is. his only really bad matchup is metaknight. anything else is 40-60 at worst, and he has the adv vs a ton of good characters. it's not crew bias, kirby is just incredibly underrated and i think eventually people will see that

 

[Turbo Ether]

Snake's full potential isn't easy to determine when notable Snakes like Chillin and DSF start running with MK. A lot of the people that think Snake is potentially the best, play MK instead. Why?

Although Snake does the best against MK, you can't ignore the fact that other characters still have a better matchup spread. Snake will not win a major tournament at this rate.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Snake is the opposite of Marth IMO. ***** hard, but has some match-ups where he gets owned.

I also think Snake vs ROB is more in ROB's favor then 60/40. I would say 65/35.