The Great Fairy Fountain Research Thread

[Mocha]

I tested all of Zelda's aerials so that I could get them to become consistently lagless, as you showed in your vids. I've found that the easiest way to get them to be lagless is to fast fall, as you stated. I'm not sure if i understand the lagless LKs out of hitstun and invincibility frames though.

Also curious, do the lagless aerials kind of work like Pika's quick attack cancel? As in, you have to perfectly time your jump at the moment you touch the ground, so that you can get minimum to no lag?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I tested all of Zelda's aerials so that I could get them to become consistently lagless, as you showed in your vids. I've found that the easiest way to get them to be lagless is to fast fall, as you stated. I'm not sure if i understand the lagless LKs out of hitstun and invincibility frames though.

Also curious, do the lagless aerials kind of work like Pika's quick attack cancel? As in, you have to perfectly time your jump at the moment you touch the ground, so that you can get minimum to no lag?

I don't think you can apply pika's QAC to lagless aerials. Pika's QAC is different in the sense you're jumping when you're hitting the ground and when you're doing a lagless aerial you're landing with out any landing lag. An example of this would be Wolf's fair which normally has a lot of landing lag but if done early enough in the jump can have no landing lag.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

^ That's called autocancelling.

There are autocancel frames in almost every move.

Example: Zelda's uair autocancels from frame 1-14, so it's only lagless if you use it before the hitbox comes out, while bair and fair have autocancel frames on the end of their moves, so you can use it similar to Wolf's fair like AL said.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

^ That's called autocancelling.

There are autocancel frames in almost every move.

Example: Zelda's uair autocancels from frame 1-14, so it's only lagless if you use it before the hitbox comes out, while bair and fair have autocancel frames on the end of their moves, so you can use it similar to Wolf's fair like AL said.

No, there's a difference between lagless landing and auto canceling. Let's once again look at wolf's fair if you do it at the wrong time you will suffer at lot of cool down lag. Compared to a move like Marth's fair or nair where even though the move isn't finished he doesn't suffer from any cool down. However, wolf can manipulate his fair so that he can land with out lag. Another example of this would be gannodorf's down air which normally has a lot of cool down but when down properly has virtual no lag once you hit the ground.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

When Wolf "manipulates" his fair, that is called autocancelling.

 

[Kataefi]

can somebody tell me how fast zelda's charge release frames are on her smashes?

 

[MechaWave]

Her... charge release? Like, how fast it takes for her to charge up or the duration of it? There's no real "release" iirc, she just starts the regular animation of Xsmash.

 

[Kataefi]

i meant the animation from when you release the charge. There's always a fixed animation i believe. e.g. zss dsmash has a 1 frame charge release iirc.

 

[Alacion]

i meant the animation from when you release the charge. There's always a fixed animation i believe. e.g. zss dsmash has a 1 frame charge release iirc.

Wanna unlock that guide thread? :o

 

[KuroganeHammer]

i meant the animation from when you release the charge. There's always a fixed animation i believe. e.g. zss dsmash has a 1 frame charge release iirc.

If I understand what you're saying;

D-smash = 2 frames
F-smash = 6 frames
U-smash = 2 frames

Though I still don't understand what you mean. So I could be wrong.

 

[Kataefi]

Wanna unlock that guide thread? :o

yes

D-smash = 2 frames
F-smash = 6 frames
U-smash = 2 frames

this looks about right to me. so her fsmash animation takes 10 frames before you have any ability to charge (this would be when she pulls back her arms), and then 6 frames is the release.

so a trip is something like +19 iirc. Dsmash starts up in 2 and releases in 2. so there's a 15 frame window to charge dsmash for max damage.

i was curious about all this and wanted to know so thanks =D

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah basically. Glad I could help. <3

 

[KayLo!]

Fsmash
Hitbox Active: 16, 18, 20, 22, 24 (5 hits)
From Charge, Hits On: 6
FAF: 40
Fresh Damage: 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 13.65
Advantage on Block: -16, -14, -12, -10, -9 (normal shield drop) / -23, -21, -19, -17, -16 (jump/grab oos)

Usmash
Hitbox Active: 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 23, 25, 27, 29, 31 (11 hits)
From Charge, Hits On: 3
FAF: 57
Fresh Damage: 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 5.25
Advantage on Block (first 10 hits): -42, -40, -38, -36, -34, -32, -25, -23, -21, -19 (normal shield drop) / -49, -47, -45, -43, -41, -39, -32, -30, -28, -26 (jump/grab oos)
Advantage on Block (final hit): -20 (normal shield drop) / -27 (jump/grab oos)

Dsmash
Hitbox Active: 4-6, 12-14 (2 hits)
From Charge, Hits On: 3
FAF: 40
Invincibility: 4-14 (right leg and knee only)
Fresh Damage: 12.6, 10.5
Trip Rate: 30%
Advantage on Block: -24, -17 (normal shield drop) / -31, -24 (jump/grab oos)

It's in the OP.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

twas off by a frame on two.

SUPER MEGA AMAZING EDITZ

Kaylo, how did you get the precise damage values on Zelda's attacks?

 

[KayLo!]

Got the base damage values from PSA, then from there you can calculate damage for any level of staleness.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

hmmz, but PSA just gives whole numbers.

Wait, don't moves that haven't been in the stale queue get a 5% bonus added to damage? Maybe that's what I was missing.

Thx KayLo! <3

 

[KayLo!]

Damage = Base Damage * Staleness Multiplier * Charge Multiplier * Aura Multiplier * Fatigue Multiplier
Note: Damage is read to the hundredths place.[COLLAPSE="Staleness Multiplier Formula"]

3.2 Stale Move Multiplier

The formula for the stale move multiplier is

This is explained below, including the definition of s.

In training mode, stale moves are not in play, so the value of this multiplier is exactly1. If the move is not affected by stale move decay, then the value of this multiplier is 1 even in versus mode. The following moves are not affected by stale move decay: Luigi's down taunt; DK's cargo throws; tether attacks; Zero Suit Samus's neutral air.

In versus mode, for moves affected by stale move decay, this factor is never 1. If a move is not in the stale move queue before being used, the value of this multiplier is exactly 1.05.

In versus mode, for moves affected by stale move decay, a move is placed in the stale move queue after it is used. The stale move queue contains nine entries, and each entry has a numerical weighting as depicted in the following diagram.

The left of the diagram represents the most recent move to be added to the queue, and the far right represents the oldest move to the added to the queue. Then we have

stale multiplier = 1 – s

where s is the sum of the values of the positions in the queue occupied by the move being used. For example, if the move being used occupies the .1 position, the .06 position, and the .03 position, then the stale multiplier is 1 - (0.1 + 0.06 + 0.03) = 0.81.

[/COLLAPSE][COLLAPSE=Charge Multiplier Formula]

3.3 Charge Multiplier

This is the formula for the charge multiplier

For partially charged smash attacks, the value will be somewhere between 1 and 1.4, but we were unable to determine the exact distribution experimentally; it is too difficult to test. However, we speculate that it follows the same distribution as the aura damage multiplier. We speculate that if you charge the smash 1/n of the way, the multiplier is the same as the aura damage multiplier for (170-75)/n+75 %.

[/COLLAPSE][COLLAPSE=Aura Multiplier Formula]

3.4 Aura Multiplier

This is the formula for the aura multiplier:

where

In coin mode, each coin counts as a stock for the purpose of the stock multiplier.

The damage multiplier is in the interval [0.7, 1.4]. It is 0.7 for all damages <= 20% and 1.4 for all damages >= 170%. It is exactly 1 only when the damage is 75%. A very good approximation for the damage multiplier can be found by reading the value from this chart:

For example, the damage multiplier for 95% is 1.09.

This chart was created by using quintic interpolation between some exact values that we worked out.

[/COLLAPSE][COLLAPSE=Fatigue Multiplier Formula]

3.5 Fatigue Multiplier

Not everything is known about this multiplier. However, it is 1 if the character is not a pokemon trainer pokemon. Otherwise, it is in the interval [0.7, 1] where 1 is fully unfatigued and 0.7 is fully fatigued. There is in fact a spectrum of fatigue levels and the multiplier can take on various values in between 0.7 and 1. The multiplier cannot take on every value in this interval, however. When the pokemon shows no signs of fatigue, the multiplier is 1.

[/COLLAPSE]

^ Complete damage formula.

 

[MechaWave]

God you people have no life. ._.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

wooooooooooooo, that's awesome. Many, many thanks KayLo! <33

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Fsmash
Hitbox Active: 16, 18, 20, 22, 24 (5 hits)
From Charge, Hits On: 6
FAF: 40
Fresh Damage: 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 13.65
Advantage on Block: -16, -14, -12, -10, -9 (normal shield drop) / -23, -21, -19, -17, -16 (jump/grab oos)

Usmash
Hitbox Active: 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 23, 25, 27, 29, 31 (11 hits)
From Charge, Hits On: 3
FAF: 57
Fresh Damage: 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 5.25
Advantage on Block (first 10 hits): -42, -40, -38, -36, -34, -32, -25, -23, -21, -19 (normal shield drop) / -49, -47, -45, -43, -41, -39, -32, -30, -28, -26 (jump/grab oos)
Advantage on Block (final hit): -20 (normal shield drop) / -27 (jump/grab oos)

Dsmash
Hitbox Active: 4-6, 12-14 (2 hits)
From Charge, Hits On: 3
FAF: 40
Invincibility: 4-14 (right leg and knee only)
Fresh Damage: 12.6, 10.5
Trip Rate: 30%
Advantage on Block: -24, -17 (normal shield drop) / -31, -24 (jump/grab oos)

It's in the OP.

If you charge smash attacks the move comes out faster? Does it matter how long the smash attack is charged for ? Also take fsmash for example since it hits on frame 6 instead of frame 16 does that mean we take 10 frames away for each hit ? And for how long the moves last for ?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Short answer: No.

 

[KayLo!]

wooooooooooooo, that's awesome. Many, many thanks KayLo! <33

No prob.

If you charge smash attacks the move comes out faster? Does it matter how long the smash attack is charged for ? Also take fsmash for example since it hits on frame 6 instead of frame 16 does that mean we take 10 frames away for each hit ? And for how long the moves last for ?

The charge release (the "From Charge, Hits On" number) is how many frames it takes the move to come out from a charge. For example: an uncharged fsmash will always come out on frame 16, but let's say you charge fsmash for 20 frames total (counting from frame 0).... it'll come out on frame 26. If you charge for 25 frames, it'll come out on frame 31, etc.

I guess another way of thinking about it is that even an "uncharged" fsmash has 10 frames of mandatory charge.

I get what you mean by saying it comes out faster, but it really doesn't since charging a smash is still putting you through vulnerable startup frames.

Hitbox duration and cooldown stay the same regardless of charge.

God you people have no life. ._.

Haa, this guy's a comedian!

 

[MechaWave]

Sure am! ;3

 

[Mocha]

Thanks Kaylo

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Short answer: No.

I'd prefer the long answer thankfully for you Kaylo gave me the long answer.

No prob.



The charge release (the "From Charge, Hits On" number) is how many frames it takes the move to come out from a charge. For example: an uncharged fsmash will always come out on frame 16, but let's say you charge fsmash for 20 frames total (counting from frame 0).... it'll come out on frame 26. If you charge for 25 frames, it'll come out on frame 31, etc.

I guess another way of thinking about it is that even an "uncharged" fsmash has 10 frames of mandatory charge.

I get what you mean by saying it comes out faster, but it really doesn't since charging a smash is still putting you through vulnerable startup frames.

Hitbox duration and cooldown stay the same regardless of charge.



Haa, this guy's a comedian!

Ah, I see thanks for the explanation Kaylo.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'd prefer the long answer thankfully for you Kaylo gave me the long answer.

Soz, it was hard to explain. I wrote something up, but I re read it and it made no sense whatsoever. lawl

 

[AlanHaTe]

did anybody download the .pac file for the visible hitbubbles?

I just tried to do it using this link but it said: "invalid or deleted file"

if anybody can help me get them I will be very grateful ^^

 

[KayLo!]

Oh. I'll find it again at some point if no one else does.... gotta do some searching.

 

[Fuujin]

So I was playing wifi a few days ago because I was bored and I seent a Marth get out of N air, I went to test it and it turns out Marth CAN escape Zelda's N air.

I thought N air was impossible to SDI out of?

 

[Kataefi]

iirc on the ground it's impossible.

in the air i think it's like usmash where the multipliers are veerry low. kay should come in and correct me marth's a *****. I think it also depends on positioning and stuffs because sometimes characters just randomly pop out of it.

what are your inputs?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I have a feeling Fuujin's hitting with some of the further away hitboxes and not the ones that link into each other.

I have frame advance so I'll test it later.

 

[AlanHaTe]

I once scaped Nair with Zelda I don't know how... it was also on wifi

 

[Fluttershy]

Does anyone know where Zelda's hurt bubbles are when she starts Din's?
When I was playing as TL I shot an uncharged arrow at Zelda and it went through her when she used Din's (before the fireball was created)
http://www.mediafire.com/?wqfwxq1d0b21tp2 IIRC this should be the one that I had on mediafire (I'm not 100% sure) it happens at the end...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hahahaha! That computer is too pro.

B Reversed Nayru's! Perfect shielding! Baiting with her jump!

I am looking at it now.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Basically her legs seem to go into the Z-axis a bit and attacks with 2D hitboxes miss entirely.

Only her body is a hurtbox. Her dress obviously isn't.

 

[Mocha]

Interesting...

It looks like in order to duck TL's arrow, you have to be in the starting animation of Din's? So if you're just sitting there charging it, the arrow can still hit you? Seems like tricky timing

 

[KuroganeHammer]

As far as I can tell, she is like that during the whole animation. Haven't tested it though cause I'm lazy.

 

[Fluttershy]

As far as I can tell, she is like that during the whole animation. Haven't tested it though cause I'm lazy.

From what I know the charge and the distance are effected in order for Zelda to dodge the arrow. Fully charged arrows will not go through (atleast at FD) while half charged arrows can go through if they are at the correct distance. I'm not sure what maximum charge level the arrow needs to be in order for Zelda to dodge it (maybe 3/4ths of a charge). I'm not sure if the arrows will go through her if she is charging Din's.

corrections for ^
It can be done at full range at FD with a full charge
also it didn't go through when I was charging din's so it needs done at the right time

 

[Mocha]

Did you guys know Zelda can do a Nayru's Love 'boost' off a platform or edge, similarly to how Mario can with his cape?

 

[Fluttershy]

Yes. Its quite fun to use. If only Zelda kept on sliding when it is reversed and when she relands onto the platform or stage.