The Great Debatemania! PHASE 3, ROUND 5 START!

[Pacack]

I just wanted to say that I voted Roy for the next debate, but that I wouldn't mind seeing Chrom either. Maybe we could do a general Fire Emblem newcomer debate instead of a specific character debate?

 

[Autumn ♫]

My point wasn't using pages to determine if Pac-Man will be in the game through page count. So all the characters and comparisons you brought up miss the point. Here is the exact question I asked: "Would we even be asking this question with the same amount of demand and fervor if Namco wasn't co-developing the game?" Pac-Man's name comes up in discussion naturally more because Namco is co-developing. The discussion of him being in Smash increased because Namco is co-developing. People expect him more because Namco is co-developing. I think that is without a doubt.

There would probably still be a good amount of debating with Pac-Man and he would probably still have some popularity if Namco wasn't working on the game, but since they are, it gets even more people to think about Pac-Man's possibilities of being in. Pac-Man is an iconic character and has a history with Nintendo, both being 2 large qualities for Smash.

 

[Zzuxon]

"Would we even be asking this question with the same amount of demand and fervor if Namco wasn't co-developing the game?" Pac-Man's name comes up in discussion naturally more because Namco is co-developing. The discussion of him being in Smash increased because Namco is co-developing. People expect him more because Namco is co-developing. I think that is without a doubt.

Honestly? No. But that isn't really a bad thing in my mind.
When I first saw the idea of Pac-Man, I was intrigued. I hadn't given It much thought, but I really liked the idea. The fact that Namco is helping just calls attention to a character that, I imagine, most people haven't thought about but would enjoy anyway.
Not to mention Pac-Man's incredible innate qualifications. No-one says popularity is a main facet of Pac-Man's case, but it isn't bad enough to be a hindrance, and the fact that much of his attention is derived from Namco developing certainly isn't bad.

 

[jaytalks]

There would probably still be a good amount of debating with Pac-Man and he would probably still have some popularity if Namco wasn't working on the game, but since they are, it gets even more people to think about Pac-Man's possibilities of being in. Pac-Man is an iconic character and has a history with Nintendo, both being 2 large qualities for Smash.

see previous data. It would not be at the level it is now. This "thesis", which will strengthen the points we will be making over the coming days, is the big elephant in the room that it helps to acknowledge. I don't think that there is any doubt that Pac-Man is an iconic character and has a history of appearing on Nintendo consoles. We can debate how much weight that brings with topic 2.

Honestly? No. But that isn't really a bad thing in my mind.
When I first saw the idea of Pac-Man, I was intrigued. I hadn't given It much thought, but I really liked the idea. The fact that Namco is helping just calls attention to a character that, I imagine, most people haven't thought about but would enjoy anyway.
Not to mention Pac-Man's incredible innate qualifications. No-one says popularity is a main facet of Pac-Man's case, but it isn't bad enough to be a hindrance, and the fact that much of his attention is derived from Namco developing certainly isn't bad.

As long as we are in agreement about that first point. It's great that the idea of Pac-Man can intrigue smashers, but it isn't really a new idea to the community. Ideas are much different than the reality that Sakurai should (and will) pursue.

I imagine we will cover the popularity stuff on topic 3.

So how should you go about the Opening Statements? First, present your talking points. What will you argue on? What is your main point? Secondly, present the topic in a way that supports your statements. It is simple to say "I think character A is likely/unlikely." However, explain briefly why you think this by presenting Then correlate that to why you support/reject character A. Finally, use this time to gauge the other team and prepare some arguments to be used in the later rounds.
I hope this all makes sense.

I think the opening statements were a little muddled, because this was after all, a type of trial run. It would give if both teams could give feedback for the next debate.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

The first day of debates draws to a close leaving everyone hungry for action. Due to confusion about the Opening Statements, the first round was a bit lack luster in terms of actually debate. However, despite the rather calm debates during Round 1, we did get to see what these debaters are about and, hopefully, have a glimpse of what is to come!

And the start of the new day begins!

Round 2 consists of
Pac-Man and Smash: Move Set, Character Balance, and Impact

How would Pac Man work in Smash? How would he not work in Smash? Would he be a positive or a negative force in Smash? What kind of impact does he bring? Would his inclusion bring the hype or turn people away?

Remember that team members have to participate. The staff are looking to see who it not participating and who is. As well, please try to address the issues each team is making. Failing to do so may result in negative points. And as always, audience members, remember to Like the posts!!

 

[Zzuxon]

Arguements that state Pac-Man shouldn't be in based on moveset potential hold no water. Pac-Man has a plethora of abilities from his own games, and even if he didn't, characters like Mr Game and Watch, Wii Fit Trainer, ROB, and even Captain Falcon nullify this arguement in general. APC99 has made a pac-man moveset during phase 1, as well as collected 2 or 3 others. I will allow APC99 to present his own set, but I can provide those we've found. *To be edited soon*
[collapse="Arcadenik's Pac-Man moveset for reference"]

Jab Finish
Pac-Man angrily flails his fists around like he did in Pac-Man 2: The New Adventures.

Dash Attack
Pac-Man turns into a floating limb-less sphere and bites up to four times. The last bite has a decent knockback.

Side Smash
This is based on Dig Dug. A Pooka appears in front of Pac-Man. Pac-Man inflates the Pooka till it pops. The popped Pooka hurts nearby opponents.

Up Smash
This is based on Galaxian. Pac-Man ducks as the spaceship from Galaxian appears above Pac-Man and repeatedly shoots upward four times.

Down Smash
This is based on Rally-X. Pac-Man sets down two cars from Rally-X on both sides. The cars drive away from each other for a short distance before they explode. The cars can crash into nearby opponents.

Forward Aerial
Pac-Man turns into Super Pac-Man and bites up to four times while "flying" in the air. The last bite has a decent knockback.

Down Aerial
This is Pac-Man's stall-then-fall move. Pac-Man turns into a limb-less sphere and bites up to four times when dropping. The last bite is a meteor smash.

Grab
Pac-Man grabs the opponent and puts them in his mouth.

Pummel
Pac-Man chews the opponent.

Neutral Special - Pac 'n Roll
This is based on the Rev Roll move from Pac-Man World 2. Pac-Man turns into a limb-less sphere and spins in place when you hold down the B button. Pac-Man rolls across the stage (or air) when you release the B button. It functions like Jigglypuff's Rollout move.

Side Special - Pac-Attack
This is based on eating blue ghosts from Pac-Man (arcade). Four blue ghosts appear in front of Pac-Man. Pac-Man turns into a floating limb-less sphere and chases after the ghosts in one direction. Pac-Man eats the ghosts one by one. If Pac-Man eats a ghost that is overlapping with an opponent, it is a meteor smash. Pac-Man can stop chasing after ghosts if the B button is released. This can be used as a quick horizontal recovery move.

Up Special - Pac-Chain
This is based on the Pac-Dot Chains from Pac-Man World 2. A red Pac-Dot appears and leaves behind a trailing path of yellow Pac-Dots and then Pac-Man turns into a floating limb-less sphere and eats the Pac-Dots. The player can guide the red Pac-Dot by holding down the B button while moving the control stick. Pac-Man can only turn in right angles. If Pac-Man eats the red Pac-Dot while it is overlapping with the opponent, it has the potential to be an one-hit KO move at high percentages.

Down Special- Pac 'n Jump
This is based on the Butt Bounce move from Pac-Man World 2. Pac-Man turns into a bouncing limb-less sphere. Each input will result in Pac-Man bouncing higher and higher. Pac-Man can bounce up to three times but each consecutive bounce get progressively stronger. Pac-Man can also link combos with each bounce. It functions similarly to the Ball copy ability from the Kirby's Adventure.

Final Smash - Pac-Man Fever
This is based on the Power Pellet from Pac-Man (arcade). Pac-Man eats a Power Pellet and turns into a giant limb-less circle (not sphere) and bites everywhere. Each bite results in an one-hit KO. Pac-Man can only turn in right angles.

Entrance
Pac-Man drops from the hang glider from Pac-Man 2: The New Adventures.[/quote] [/collapse]
[collapse="8-Peacock-8's aerials for Pac-Man (reference)"]

So heres some aerial moves.

Neutral Air: Pac-Man eats the tornado pellet and spins around. This will give a wind bassed attack that will damage anyone near him. (Range is the same as Sonic's neutral air)
Down Air: Pac-Man turns into his ball form and slams himself down onto the ground. (Works like a dive kick) Once he lands he will bounce back up like a super ball and the down air can be done again. (He can also bounce off opponents)
Up Air: Pac-Man does his flip kick from Pac-Man World.
Back Air: Pac-Man spins around and bites anyone behind him.[/quote]

[/collapse]
We have 1 other moveset and set of specials, but technical difficulties prevent me from posting at this time.

 

[Spears In Smash Bros.]

Though I personally agree that Pac-Man's moveset potential is not a major hindrance to his chances, your post does not demonstrate this very well. All of the smash attacks in your proposed moveset are homages to other retro Namco games that he did not appear in. Even ROB, who was a peripheral accessory only compatible with two games, does not use abilities from other retro games.

 

[APC99]

Arguements that state Pac-Man shouldn't be in based on moveset potential hold no water. Pac-Man has a plethora of abilities from his own games, and even if he didn't, characters like Mr Game and Watch, Wii Fit Trainer, ROB, and even Captain Falcon nullify this arguement in general. APC99 has made a pac-man moveset during phase 1, as well as collected 2 or 3 others. I will allow APC99 to present his own set.

Such a polite man! Yes, I shall post my moveset now.

[collapse="APC99's Homemade Pac-Man Moveset!)"]

Jab: Shockwave Punches. Pac-Man punches twice with alternating hands, and then with a blow that sends a shockwave forward.
F-Tilt: Chomp. Pac-Man chomps forward. This move can deal combos, similar to Fox and Captain Falcon’s jab, with never-ending chomping as long as you mash the button.
U-Tilt: Dig Dug. He lifts up a Pooka into the air as it inflates and explodes above him. Occasionally he’ll pull out a Fygar, which will breathe fire as it inflates.
D-Tilt: Blazing Kick. Pac-Man performs Lee Chaolan’s Blazing Kick from Tekken, with fiery blasts surrounding his leg as he performs it.
Dash Attack: Pac-Mode. Pac-Man chomps forward as you are now in Pac-Mode. This means, like the game, you can input to a side to change direction, and you chomp neverendingly. The only way to escape Pac-Mode is to either hit a ledge or input another move (jump, special, grab, etc.).
N-Air: Enemies. the 4 Ghosts (Inky, Blinky, Pinky and Clyde) materialize around him in a defensive barrier and then spread out in separate directions, similar to Leaf Shield from MM2.
F-Air: Flip Kick. Pac-Man performs his Flip Kick from the Pac-Man World series.
B-Air: Pac and Pal. Pac-Man spins around as a card from Pac & Pal appears and he chomps it as it begins to spin around continuously in the spot it was generated in for about 5 seconds.
U-Air: Rally-X. He spins in the air as a Rally-X car appears and drives straight into the sky above Pac-Man.
D-Air: Super Ball. Pac-Man retracts his arms & legs and enters his Super Ball Form, he bounces downwards like a meteor smash but now can bounce off of platforms or footstool immediately as well as do aerials to stop his form. If you input this again while in Super Ball Form, Pac-Man can now roll across the stage and chomp. This too, can easily be reverted back to normal using another input.
F-Smash: Demon Fang. Like the classic move in Tales of Symphonia, Pac-Man slams his fist into the ground as a shock wave travels through the ground.
U-Smash: Uppercut. Pac-Man performs his infamous uppercut.
D-Smash: Super Pac-Dot Shoot. Pac-Man spins around as he releases Pac-Dots all around him.
Grab: Hungry Bite. Pac-Man lunges forward with an arm and a primed mouth, as he pulls the opponent into his mouth.
Pummel: Quick Crunch. He continually chomps the opponent.
F-Throw: Pac-Dot Shoot. Pac-Man pushes the opponent forward as several Pac-Dots follow after them.
B-Throw: Xevious. Pac-Man throws the Xevious Ship with the opponent on it as the ship blasts them with lasers.
U-Throw: Wind Bullet. Pac-Man pulls out Klonoa’s Wind Ring and uses it to push the opponent upwards with a gust of wind.
D-Throw: Galaxian. Pac-Man waves his hand as the Galaxian Flagship pixelates onto the screen and blasts a laser down onto the opponent.
N-Special: Pac-Dot. Pac-Man pulls out his pellet container and eats a Pac-Dot. This Pac-Dot can have random effects on Pac-Man, including:

• Mega Pellet: Pac-Man burps out the pac-dot as it grows into a Mega Pellet and is now thrown at an angle like Mega Man’s Metal Blade. It ricochets off platforms, shields, opponents or items twice before it falls helplessly and fades away.
• Cherry: This heals 5% of Pac-Man’s damage as he rubs his stomach and enjoys the well-deserved taste of a cherry.
• Accidental Eyeballs: He’ll burp out a pair of eyes as it materializes into one of the 4 ghosts. They fly forward until they hit off-stage. Only difference between ghosts is the hitboxes; Clyde’s is a lot bigger than the others.
• Cyan Pill: Pac-Man will gain a duplicate copy that lasts for 7 seconds as it does everything Pac-Man does, but reversed.
• Metal Pac: Pac-Man gains the effects of a Metal Box.
• Shrink Pellet: Pac-Man will accidentally shrink in size as if a Poison Mushroom hit him.
• Red Ribbon: When Pac-Man dashes, a trail of red energy follows him that deals damage for a limited time.
• Electro-Shock: Pac-Man releases a blast of electricity from his palms that stuns opponents.

Although this move has a bit of start-up lag, it’s results allow it to have a variety of attacks to make sure he has balanced gameplay.
F-Special: Rev Roll. Pac-Man dashes forward similarly to Squirtle’s Forward Special, allowing him to be more maneuverable than other rev attacks by other characters.
U-Special: Pac-Chain. A trail of dots (about 5) appear in whatever formation you tilt the control stick. Pac-Man follows these dots and then enters helpless, hoping you reach a platform or ledge.
D-Special: Butt Bounce. Pac-Man bounces down using his butt, and can bounce back upwards 3 times before the move ends.

Final Smash: Super Pac-Man. Pac-Man swallows a Power Pellet as he increases in size and becomes the original arcade sprite of Pac-Man, except bigger. All opponents assume a blue shade as Pac-Man is invincible and can now go multi-directional and chomp them, landing an instant KO. [/collapse]

Though I personally agree that Pac-Man's moveset potential is not a major hindrance to his chances, your post does not demonstrate this very well. All of the smash attacks in your proposed moveset are homages to other retro Namco games that he did not appear in. Even ROB, who was a peripheral accessory only compatible with two games, does not use abilities from other retro games.

The reason Pac-Man uses other Namco-Bandai arcade games as move references, as well as other Namco references, is because he is, essentially, the arcade rep. With several other games, Pac-Man can represent the history of video games itself. Although R.O.B. doesn't use other abilities, how does that mean Pac-Man shouldn't? Is it against some rule that characters have to use moves originating from them? Besides, Pac-Man HAS used several of these before. In Pac and Pal, Pac-Man can use the Galaxian Flagship and Rally-X Car. In his crossovers with Mario Kart, Pac-Man uses a Pooka from Dig Dug. Pac-Man was a character in a Tekken game, and has ties to Klonoa and SoulCalibur. So, just for you guys, I've also prepared "spare" moves to show that Pac-Man is possible without such moves.

[collapse="APC99's Spare Replacement Moves (for a non-Namco referencing moveset)"]

D-Throw: Pac-Man body slams the opponent under the effects of a Power Stomp.
U-Throw: Pac-Man jumps as a B-Doing appears below him and he bounces upward with the opponent, spinning in their face.
B-Throw: Pac-Man goes into Pac-Mode and pushes the opponent backwards with his incessant chomping.
U-Tilt: Pac-Man breathes icy cold breath above him, like in Pac and Pal, as it freezes opponents above him.
F-Smash: Pac-Man releases several tiny Pac-Men (from Pac and Pal) as they home in on the opponent and bite a few times before “dying”.
U-Air: Pac-Man does a spin similar to Kirby, but it ends with him burping eyeballs upwards.
D-Tilt: Pac-Man throws a cherry which bounces up and down in an arc in front of him. [/collapse]

 

[Zzuxon]

Though I personally agree that Pac-Man's moveset potential is not a major hindrance to his chances, your post does not demonstrate this very well. All of the smash attacks in your proposed moveset are homages to other retro Namco games that he did not appear in. Even ROB, who was a peripheral accessory only compatible with two games, does not use abilities from other retro games.

You're objection is understandable. However, there is a precedent for Pac-Man referencing other arcade games. In Pac-&-Pal Pac-Man can use a Galaxian ship and a Rally X car as Items. He has also crossed over with many Namco franchises, Including Tekken and Soulcaliber, and obviously Klonoa's hat bears his image.
However, we anticipated this kind of objection, and so APC99 prepared alternate moves that reference no other series, as you've seen.

 

[jaytalks]

You're objection is understandable. However, there is a precedent for Pac-Man referencing other arcade games. In Pac-&-Pal Pac-Man can use a Galaxian ship and a Rally X car as Items. He has also crossed over with many Namco franchises, Including Tekken and Soulcaliber, and obviously Klonoa's hat bears his image.
However, we anticipated this kind of objection, and so APC99 prepared alternate moves that reference no other series, as you've seen.

I usually don't argue about moveset potential, but since it's a topic I guess I must. Continuing off what Spears in Smash Bros. said, putting moves from different games outside of a characters' series happens practically never with any of the characters, aside from original movesets from such as Captain Falcon's. It goes against Sakurai methods for determining a moveset.

Marth, for example, had hardly any moves from his previous NES and SNES games. Sakurai added attacks like the Dolphin Slice (his up special), that resembles an attack from FE4 and FE5. Even a character like Fox, who has pilots an Arwing for most of his appearances, has his moves reference attacks from the Arwing. The reflector, blaster, and fire fox (along with the forward special) reference the barrel roll, laser, and boosting respectively.

Referencing other games really goes contrary to Sakurai's methods. He is more likely to create original moves than reference other third party games. I would prefer to see a moveset reflecting just Pac-Man games before I can judge it further. The special selection is solid, but the use of other games for his smashes suggest to me that he doesn't have a whole lot from his games to have a strong and unique moveset for Smash. Which I would agree with.

I'm a big advocate for having movesets based on what's in the game. It doesn't make sense to me to really make up too many original moves or reference other games with the moves due to Sakurai's approach.

Such a polite man! Yes, I shall post my moveset now.

[collapse="APC99's Homemade Pac-Man Moveset!)"]

Jab: Shockwave Punches. Pac-Man punches twice with alternating hands, and then with a blow that sends a shockwave forward.
F-Tilt: Chomp. Pac-Man chomps forward. This move can deal combos, similar to Fox and Captain Falcon’s jab, with never-ending chomping as long as you mash the button.
U-Tilt: Dig Dug. He lifts up a Pooka into the air as it inflates and explodes above him. Occasionally he’ll pull out a Fygar, which will breathe fire as it inflates.
D-Tilt: Blazing Kick. Pac-Man performs Lee Chaolan’s Blazing Kick from Tekken, with fiery blasts surrounding his leg as he performs it.
Dash Attack: Pac-Mode. Pac-Man chomps forward as you are now in Pac-Mode. This means, like the game, you can input to a side to change direction, and you chomp neverendingly. The only way to escape Pac-Mode is to either hit a ledge or input another move (jump, special, grab, etc.).
N-Air: Enemies. the 4 Ghosts (Inky, Blinky, Pinky and Clyde) materialize around him in a defensive barrier and then spread out in separate directions, similar to Leaf Shield from MM2.
F-Air: Flip Kick. Pac-Man performs his Flip Kick from the Pac-Man World series.
B-Air: Pac and Pal. Pac-Man spins around as a card from Pac & Pal appears and he chomps it as it begins to spin around continuously in the spot it was generated in for about 5 seconds.
U-Air: Rally-X. He spins in the air as a Rally-X car appears and drives straight into the sky above Pac-Man.
D-Air: Super Ball. Pac-Man retracts his arms & legs and enters his Super Ball Form, he bounces downwards like a meteor smash but now can bounce off of platforms or footstool immediately as well as do aerials to stop his form. If you input this again while in Super Ball Form, Pac-Man can now roll across the stage and chomp. This too, can easily be reverted back to normal using another input.
F-Smash: Demon Fang. Like the classic move in Tales of Symphonia, Pac-Man slams his fist into the ground as a shock wave travels through the ground.
U-Smash: Uppercut. Pac-Man performs his infamous uppercut.
D-Smash: Super Pac-Dot Shoot. Pac-Man spins around as he releases Pac-Dots all around him.
Grab: Hungry Bite. Pac-Man lunges forward with an arm and a primed mouth, as he pulls the opponent into his mouth.
Pummel: Quick Crunch. He continually chomps the opponent.
F-Throw: Pac-Dot Shoot. Pac-Man pushes the opponent forward as several Pac-Dots follow after them.
B-Throw: Xevious. Pac-Man throws the Xevious Ship with the opponent on it as the ship blasts them with lasers.
U-Throw: Wind Bullet. Pac-Man pulls out Klonoa’s Wind Ring and uses it to push the opponent upwards with a gust of wind.
D-Throw: Galaxian. Pac-Man waves his hand as the Galaxian Flagship pixelates onto the screen and blasts a laser down onto the opponent.
N-Special: Pac-Dot. Pac-Man pulls out his pellet container and eats a Pac-Dot. This Pac-Dot can have random effects on Pac-Man, including:

• Mega Pellet: Pac-Man burps out the pac-dot as it grows into a Mega Pellet and is now thrown at an angle like Mega Man’s Metal Blade. It ricochets off platforms, shields, opponents or items twice before it falls helplessly and fades away.
• Cherry: This heals 5% of Pac-Man’s damage as he rubs his stomach and enjoys the well-deserved taste of a cherry.
• Accidental Eyeballs: He’ll burp out a pair of eyes as it materializes into one of the 4 ghosts. They fly forward until they hit off-stage. Only difference between ghosts is the hitboxes; Clyde’s is a lot bigger than the others.
• Cyan Pill: Pac-Man will gain a duplicate copy that lasts for 7 seconds as it does everything Pac-Man does, but reversed.
• Metal Pac: Pac-Man gains the effects of a Metal Box.
• Shrink Pellet: Pac-Man will accidentally shrink in size as if a Poison Mushroom hit him.
• Red Ribbon: When Pac-Man dashes, a trail of red energy follows him that deals damage for a limited time.
• Electro-Shock: Pac-Man releases a blast of electricity from his palms that stuns opponents.

Although this move has a bit of start-up lag, it’s results allow it to have a variety of attacks to make sure he has balanced gameplay.
F-Special: Rev Roll. Pac-Man dashes forward similarly to Squirtle’s Forward Special, allowing him to be more maneuverable than other rev attacks by other characters.
U-Special: Pac-Chain. A trail of dots (about 5) appear in whatever formation you tilt the control stick. Pac-Man follows these dots and then enters helpless, hoping you reach a platform or ledge.
D-Special: Butt Bounce. Pac-Man bounces down using his butt, and can bounce back upwards 3 times before the move ends.

Final Smash: Super Pac-Man. Pac-Man swallows a Power Pellet as he increases in size and becomes the original arcade sprite of Pac-Man, except bigger. All opponents assume a blue shade as Pac-Man is invincible and can now go multi-directional and chomp them, landing an instant KO. [/collapse]




The reason Pac-Man uses other Namco-Bandai arcade games as move references, as well as other Namco references, is because he is, essentially, the arcade rep. With several other games, Pac-Man can represent the history of video games itself. Although R.O.B. doesn't use other abilities, how does that mean Pac-Man shouldn't? Is it against some rule that characters have to use moves originating from them? Besides, Pac-Man HAS used several of these before. In Pac and Pal, Pac-Man can use the Galaxian Flagship and Rally-X Car. In his crossovers with Mario Kart, Pac-Man uses a Pooka from Dig Dug. Pac-Man was a character in a Tekken game, and has ties to Klonoa and SoulCalibur. So, just for you guys, I've also prepared "spare" moves to show that Pac-Man is possible without such moves.

[collapse="APC99's Spare Replacement Moves (for a non-Namco referencing moveset)"]

D-Throw: Pac-Man body slams the opponent under the effects of a Power Stomp.
U-Throw: Pac-Man jumps as a B-Doing appears below him and he bounces upward with the opponent, spinning in their face.
B-Throw: Pac-Man goes into Pac-Mode and pushes the opponent backwards with his incessant chomping.
U-Tilt: Pac-Man breathes icy cold breath above him, like in Pac and Pal, as it freezes opponents above him.
F-Smash: Pac-Man releases several tiny Pac-Men (from Pac and Pal) as they home in on the opponent and bite a few times before “dying”.
U-Air: Pac-Man does a spin similar to Kirby, but it ends with him burping eyeballs upwards.
D-Tilt: Pac-Man throws a cherry which bounces up and down in an arc in front of him. [/collapse]

Using moves from other games just goes against Sakurai's methods. That's the main reason.

I don't understand this concept of an arcade rep. Smash has never cared for what platform games originate on. And Smash already has plenty of "arcade" reps. Mario and Donkey Kong originated in the same arcade game. So I don't see what the point of that would be. There is no virtual boy rep. Is Lucas the GBA rep? Smash isn't about the platforms, it's about the characters.

And there would be no reason for Sakurai and Smash to reference other series with no significant ties to Nintendo. This isn't Namco Bros. I can understand if it is described as being from a Pac-Man game, but tying it to arcade title with no Nintendo connection doesnt make sense. Pac-Man needs to be able stand as his own character, as the other third party characters do.

Your other moveset posted is fine, but I think we need to bring it back to why we are discussing this topic. Character balance is the key word for me when it comes to this topic for me. Because while moveset are fun, at the end of the day they are mostly speculative. Movesets to me show how the character would work in the game, and role would they occupy in the game.

Like what archetype in fighting games would this character occupy. Could this character stand in terms of moves and stats. All of this is subjective of course, but there are characters that clearly stand out above others. It's why no one is really into the idea of Daisy for example.

Going off Sakurai's criteria (the four outlined prior to Brawl) as well as uniqueness approach to Smash 4 he has been talking about, I struggle to see how Pac-Man provides a balance to any of the existing characters, or what unique properties he brings. Going back to fighting game archetypes, I can't really see him fitting into any of them other than the balanced archetype (Mario, Ryu, Kyo etc). We don't need any more balanced characters in Smash. He isn't noticeable heavy or fast. Nor is he light or have a unique playstyle (like the star mechanic that could be added for a Little Mac).

There's nothing in the possible movesets that you offered that really contributes to game balance or shows the uniqueness of the Pac-Man character. Perhaps describing how his playstyle stands out. But as of now I'm not seeing it.

 

[APC99]

I usually don't argue about moveset potential, but since it's a topic I guess I must. Continuing off what Spears in Smash Bros. said, putting moves from different games outside of a characters' series happens practically never with any of the characters, aside from original movesets from such as Captain Falcon's. It goes against Sakurai methods for determining a moveset.

Marth, for example, had hardly any moves from his previous NES and SNES games. Sakurai added attacks like the Dolphin Slice (his up special), that resembles an attack from FE4 and FE5. Even a character like Fox, who has pilots an Arwing for most of his appearances, has his moves reference attacks from the Arwing. The reflector, blaster, and fire fox (along with the forward special) reference the barrel roll, laser, and boosting respectively.

Referencing other games really goes contrary to Sakurai's methods. He is more likely to create original moves than reference other third party games. I would prefer to see a moveset reflecting just Pac-Man games before I can judge it further. The special selection is solid, but the use of other games for his smashes suggest to me that he doesn't have a whole lot from his games to have a strong and unique moveset for Smash. Which I would agree with.

I'm a big advocate for having movesets based on what's in the game. It doesn't make sense to me to really make up too many original moves or reference other games with the moves due to Sakurai's approach.


Using moves from other games just goes against Sakurai's methods. That's the main reason.

I don't understand this concept of an arcade rep. Smash has never cared for what platform games originate on. And Smash already has plenty of "arcade" reps. Mario and Donkey Kong originated in the same arcade game. So I don't see what the point of that would be. There is no virtual boy rep. Is Lucas the GBA rep? Smash isn't about the platforms, it's about the characters.

And there would be no reason for Sakurai and Smash to reference other series with no significant ties to Nintendo. This isn't Namco Bros. I can understand if it is described as being from a Pac-Man game, but tying it to arcade title with no Nintendo connection doesnt make sense. Pac-Man needs to be able stand as his own character, as the other third party characters do.

Your other moveset posted is fine, but I think we need to bring it back to why we are discussing this topic. Character balance is the key word for me when it comes to this topic for me. Because while moveset are fun, at the end of the day they are mostly speculative. Movesets to me show how the character would work in the game, and role would they occupy in the game.

Like what archetype in fighting games would this character occupy. Could this character stand in terms of moves and stats. All of this is subjective of course, but there are characters that clearly stand out above others. It's why no one is really into the idea of Daisy for example.

Going off Sakurai's criteria (the four outlined prior to Brawl) as well as uniqueness approach to Smash 4 he has been talking about, I struggle to see how Pac-Man provides a balance to any of the existing characters, or what unique properties he brings. Going back to fighting game archetypes, I can't really see him fitting into any of them other than the balanced archetype (Mario, Ryu, Kyo etc). We don't need any more balanced characters in Smash. He isn't noticeable heavy or fast. Nor is he light or have a unique playstyle (like the star mechanic that could be added for a Little Mac).

There's nothing in the possible movesets that you offered that really contributes to game balance or shows the uniqueness of the Pac-Man character. Perhaps describing how his playstyle stands out. But as of now I'm not seeing it.

I said "arcade rep" loosely. As I don't like to claim characters as representatives. But, Pac-Man is iconic as a video gaming icon, and his creation has led to Namco becoming one of the best companies out there. And, to put it nicely, Pac-Man has the potential to be a completely unique character, yet a lot of people want him to use a few other tools from other games to give a nod to them.

As for my moveset, Pac-Man's uniqueness comes from the modes he can enter:

Normal mode- This is where Pac-Man has his arms and legs and is completely able to use moves like any other fighter. This is a very "balanced" mode and can be compared to that of Mario: Easy to control.

Pac-Mode: Pac-Man is now very similar to the Pac-Man from the arcade games, and defies any rules of gravity (even if using a Metal Box). He can go up, down, left or right (depends on your input) and attack without input.This is a quick way to travel around screen, and can even allow him to go underneath stages similar to how Pit and R.O.B. can. Although this mode leaves Pac-Man vulnerable, it allows him to approach and enter into a Smash attack, enter Ball mode or a grab, improving Pac-Man's approach.

Ball Mode: Pac-Man goes into a ball (retracts his arms & legs) and can bounce around the screen. Although his recovery is less powerful, he can deal damage by "footstooling" enemies and escape from opponents quicker. This also increases his knockback. The harder he hits the ground, the higher he goes. This also improves his approach, as Pac-Man can simply input an aerial near an opponent in his Ball Mode to knock them out. Bouncing right towards them and entering a grab can also make Pac-Man a powerful foe. However, this knockback could lead to his downfall in-battle, as this is his weak spot. If he enters ball mode, hitting him with enough momentum is basically like using a Soccer Ball. This can be extremely punishing. If Pac-Man can control the stage by setting up bumpers and using them to ricochet across the stage, he'd be a tough opponent.

Using his 3 forms, a wise player will use Pac-Mode to evade attacks and use ball mode to fly across the stage and approach with a grab or Smash attack, making him a hit-and-run kind of character. Plus, using his pellets allow him to set up even more attacks: Using the Mega Pellet and Ball Mode to make the world's most confusing Pong game, a Cyan Pill will allow Pac-Man to trap opponents in spots with Pac-Mode, the Red Ribbon will allow him to leave dust to approaching competitors (Fox Illusion, Jigglypuff's Rollout, Sonic's Homing Attack) and even the Cherry can allow Pac-Man to heal up any damage he took evading attacks.

 

[Pacack]

I really hope they don't make another character that takes as much work as Pokemon Trainer...and I REALLY hope that character isn't Pac-Man if they do. I hate to say that I'm against my fellow Pac-Man supporter there. (this isn't out of bounds, right? I assume this is still considered a comment by the audience?)

 

[Zzuxon]

A moveset based on switching between an Anthropomorphized and classic mode could make for interesting game mechanics and Olimar level originality.
And you know that'd be a very Sakurai-y thing to do.

 

[APC99]

I really hope they don't make another character that takes as much work as Pokemon Trainer...and I REALLY hope that character isn't Pac-Man if they do. I hate to say that I'm against my fellow Pac-Man supporter there. (this isn't out of bounds, right? I assume this is still considered a comment by the audience?)

It isn't as much work as PT, though. It's basically just adding new inputs. It's not different characters, it's only giving Pac-Man a bit more ability to travel around stage. It's like Pit's wings, basically. It only changes how the character moves. Like that move, if Pac-Man enters another input, it cancels that mode and allows him to act normally again. However, because Pac-Man can only enter Pac-Mode in his Dash Attack, this means he can't really use it as a recovery unless he's already in Pac-Mode and the flinch causes him to fall backwards off the stage. It's not timed because it really doesn't need to be. If he takes enough damage (15%) he'll fall out of each mode anyway.

 

[Spears In Smash Bros.]

The problem with your "mode" concept is that both alternate modes completely subvert the physics that other Smash characters are bound by. For instance, your idea for Pac-Mode would allow a player to "quickly travel" through midair, indefinitely. This means that Pac-Man would essentially have the best recovery move in the game, being easier to control than Pit's Up-B and covering more distance than basically any other recovery move, while still having decent offensive capability. In addition, a player using Pac-Mode could feasibly camp in a portion of the stage that could not be reached by other players.

Ball-Mode has the opposite issue: if his bouncing ability is too "elastic", he'll be extremely difficult to control and easy to KO, if he bounces too little, then the mode's usefulness becomes questionable. However, this is based on the assumption that Ball Pac-Man would be subject to the same general laws of physics as other characters.

Only a handful of characters in Smash have multiple modes, and each case, they come from a game whose story places emphasis on the character's ability to switch modes. It was a major plot point in Ocarina of Time, for instance, that Sheik was actually Zelda. In comparison, Pac-Man is not able to change his method of locomotion/fighting in any game he appears in. It's like if Link was given a "Pac-Mode"-like ability because of the importance of his top-down adventure games.

 

[jaytalks]

I said "arcade rep" loosely. As I don't like to claim characters as representatives. But, Pac-Man is iconic as a video gaming icon, and his creation has led to Namco becoming one of the best companies out there. And, to put it nicely, Pac-Man has the potential to be a completely unique character, yet a lot of people want him to use a few other tools from other games to give a nod to them.

Why would Smash give nods to non-Nintendo and non-Pac-Man games?What i look for in a moveset is a moveset that is possible within Smash, that would be something that Sakurai would create. Given what we know from previous movesets, I don't see any of those other video game references from happening in SSB4.

As for being iconics and important to Namco history, yeah, I agree with that. That just doesn't have anything to do with his moveset or his abilitiy to balance in the game.

As for my moveset, Pac-Man's uniqueness comes from the modes he can enter:

Normal mode- This is where Pac-Man has his arms and legs and is completely able to use moves like any other fighter. This is a very "balanced" mode and can be compared to that of Mario: Easy to control.

Pac-Mode: Pac-Man is now very similar to the Pac-Man from the arcade games, and defies any rules of gravity (even if using a Metal Box). He can go up, down, left or right (depends on your input) and attack without input.This is a quick way to travel around screen, and can even allow him to go underneath stages similar to how Pit and R.O.B. can. Although this mode leaves Pac-Man vulnerable, it allows him to approach and enter into a Smash attack, enter Ball mode or a grab, improving Pac-Man's approach.

Ball Mode: Pac-Man goes into a ball (retracts his arms & legs) and can bounce around the screen. Although his recovery is less powerful, he can deal damage by "footstooling" enemies and escape from opponents quicker. This also increases his knockback. The harder he hits the ground, the higher he goes. This also improves his approach, as Pac-Man can simply input an aerial near an opponent in his Ball Mode to knock them out. Bouncing right towards them and entering a grab can also make Pac-Man a powerful foe. However, this knockback could lead to his downfall in-battle, as this is his weak spot. If he enters ball mode, hitting him with enough momentum is basically like using a Soccer Ball. This can be extremely punishing. If Pac-Man can control the stage by setting up bumpers and using them to ricochet across the stage, he'd be a tough opponent.

Using his 3 forms, a wise player will use Pac-Mode to evade attacks and use ball mode to fly across the stage and approach with a grab or Smash attack, making him a hit-and-run kind of character. Plus, using his pellets allow him to set up even more attacks: Using the Mega Pellet and Ball Mode to make the world's most confusing Pong game, a Cyan Pill will allow Pac-Man to trap opponents in spots with Pac-Mode, the Red Ribbon will allow him to leave dust to approaching competitors (Fox Illusion, Jigglypuff's Rollout, Sonic's Homing Attack) and even the Cherry can allow Pac-Man to heal up any damage he took evading attacks.

Thanks for thinking of these modes. But as Spears pointed out, the Pac-Mode seems awfully unbalanced. Ball mode would be fairly easy to destroy with counter or just good timing. And I agree, the mode mechanic should be present in one of his games for it to be included. Do any of his games feature him transforming between modes. There's a lot of Pac-Man games; there must be something unique within the games that he can bring as a character.

When I said uniqueness, it didn't need to be a gimmick, especially one like modes which would take extra development time. Neither the Villager or Mega Man have gimmicks, but they have extremely unique movesets from what we've seen. And their movesets are true to their games, each coming from something in their installments.Most importantly, their movesets have attacks that are unique to them, and that only they will be able to perform in Smash. Mega Man has an arm cannon just like Samus, but the way they attack is completely different.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

The second round draws to a close and, while we did see some discussion between the teams, the debate has seemed to draw to a standstill. With the exception of a few individuals, the debate has yet to fully appeal the masses. I could be boring subjects, lack of participation, problems with scheduling, lack of promotion, or a general lack of information. However, I hope that with this new round, we will see some blood and sweat; these two teams go head to head and truly show their merit.

Round 2 consists of:
Pac-Man vs Namco and Nintendo Characters
How does Pac-Man compare to other Namco reps such as Jin Kazuma of Tekken fame or from the Tales series, Lloyd Irving. How does Pac-Man fare against other likely Nintendo characters? Discuss his inclusion in comparison to other characters.

Remember that team members should participate. Address the issues of the opposing team. Audience members, Liking posts ensures the teams victory.

 

[Pacack]

I'm honestly wondering if ANYONE thinks another Namco Bandai rep is more likely than Pac-Man. If they do, I'll honestly not be sure what to think about their sanity.

 

[APC99]

OK, let's get started!


On the topic of Namco-Bandai characters, let's look at the facts:

Pac-Man has many appearances on Nintendo consoles, being the first third-party game on the NES, as well as 22 other games on Nintendo consoles, with several console exclusives. Compared to his "competitors":

Pac-Man: 23 games.
Lloyd Irving: 4 games:
Klonoa: 4 games.
Dig Dug: 6 games.
Tekken Character: 3 games.

Although Lloyd Irving may "fit into Smash", he's only truly starred in 1 out of the 4 appearancea on a Nintendo console, the others he's an unlockable unit or a fighting game character (SoulCalibur Legends). Klonoa's roots began on the PlayStation, only having a "Wiimake" and 2 GBA games, as well as a Volleyball game. Dig Dug has had his 2 original arcade games ported to the NES, and Digging Strike on the DS in more recent years. For the sake of completion, the list also includes his appearances in Mr. Driller's DS and WiiWare games. Although Tekken Tag Tournament 2 for the Wii U featured Nintendo costumes, only 2 other Tekken games, Tekken Advance (GBA) and Tekken 3D (3DS) have surfaced. So not only is Pac-Man connected to Nintendo better through his games, he has several ties with Nintendo itself. Pac-Man VS., a GameCube game, was made by the legendary Shigeru Miyamoto and featured Charles Martinet (Mario himself) as the announcer of the game. The game itself can be considered a "prototype" of the Wii U, starting the use of the GBA Cable, allowing a player to play as Pac-Man on the GBA while 3 others played as ghosts on-screen. Add to the fact that Pac-Man (as well as Ms. Pac-Man, Blinky and other Pac-Man related things) appear in all 3 Mario Kart Arcade GP games (ALSO co-developed by Namco), and Miyamoto has stated his favorite video game character of all time is Pac-Man, the guy may have an advantage over the other Namco-Bandai characters.

Comparing against other Nintendo characters, Pac-Man is generally expected and considered likely. He may not have majority over characters such as Mewtwo, K. Rool, Ridley or Little Mac, Pac-Man is currently the most popular choice for a newcoming third-party. In the Rate Their Chances thread, by the 30-day limit, Pac-Man placed 9th as most likely newcomer, over Toad, Bandana Dee, Bowser Junior, Krystal, Isaac, Shulk or Tetra. In popularity, Pac-Man placed 18th, over Miis, Tingle and others. In the poll thread, Pac-Man is a common character, around Bottom Tier, the only "higher" character is Banjo-Kazooie, which is nearly impossible considering their alliance with Microsoft. He's still higher than Toad, Takamaru, Tetra, Impa, Tingle, a F-Zero character or any other third-party character.

Pac-Man, while an average and popular choice, is considered the best Namco-Bandai character to be included, and is still more popular than some "shoo-in" characters.

 

[jaytalks]

OK, let's get started!


On the topic of Namco-Bandai characters, let's look at the facts:

Pac-Man has many appearances on Nintendo consoles, being the first third-party game on the NES, as well as 22 other games on Nintendo consoles, with several console exclusives. Compared to his "competitors":

Pac-Man: 23 games.
Lloyd Irving: 4 games:
Klonoa: 4 games.
Dig Dug: 6 games.
Tekken Character: 3 games.

Although Lloyd Irving may "fit into Smash", he's only truly starred in 1 out of the 4 appearancea on a Nintendo console, the others he's an unlockable unit or a fighting game character (SoulCalibur Legends). Klonoa's roots began on the PlayStation, only having a "Wiimake" and 2 GBA games, as well as a Volleyball game. Dig Dug has had his 2 original arcade games ported to the NES, and Digging Strike on the DS in more recent years. For the sake of completion, the list also includes his appearances in Mr. Driller's DS and WiiWare games. Although Tekken Tag Tournament 2 for the Wii U featured Nintendo costumes, only 2 other Tekken games, Tekken Advance (GBA) and Tekken 3D (3DS) have surfaced. So not only is Pac-Man connected to Nintendo better through his games, he has several ties with Nintendo itself. Pac-Man VS., a GameCube game, was made by the legendary Shigeru Miyamoto and featured Charles Martinet (Mario himself) as the announcer of the game. The game itself can be considered a "prototype" of the Wii U, starting the use of the GBA Cable, allowing a player to play as Pac-Man on the GBA while 3 others played as ghosts on-screen. Add to the fact that Pac-Man (as well as Ms. Pac-Man, Blinky and other Pac-Man related things) appear in all 3 Mario Kart Arcade GP games (ALSO co-developed by Namco), and Miyamoto has stated his favorite video game character of all time is Pac-Man, the guy may have an advantage over the other Namco-Bandai characters.

Remember the first point Team Anti Pac-Man made in the debate:
"Would we even be asking this question with the same amount of demand and fervor if Namco wasn't co-developing the game? "
This will be important for the next few points.

On Namco Bandai reps in general:
I find a Namco Bandai rep unlikely because the words out of Sakurai's mouth:
Sakurai: "Just because the game is being cooperatively developed with Namco Bandai involved, that doesn’t at all mean that they’d be given any special consideration for having characters in the game."

Source:
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06...ters-receive-no-priority-for-super-smash-bros

Well, what if he's just denying the character so it's bigger surprise? Consider his previous responses:
On Mega Man (from a quote about capcom characters):
contrast how he talks about capcom character:
http://wiiugo.com/super-smash-bros-4-may-feature-a-capcom-character/
"I can’t say that it’s entirely out of the realm of possibility that some Capcom character could appear in the next Smash Bros."

And the way he's talked about other potential 1st party characters:
http://mynintendonews.com/2013/06/19/sakurai-is-considering-mewtwo-for-smash-bros-wii-u-3ds/
At Pokemon X and Y panel, the developers declined to give a solid answer on Mewtwo in Smash, but Sakurai then shouted out, from the audience, “We are thinking about it.”

On other third party reps:
http://www.vg247.com/2013/06/14/super-smash-bros-unlikely-to-have-more-third-party-characters/
"But I think I can say generally that there won't be a trend of adding a lot of third-party characters. You can sort of think of Mega Man as being the special case."

Snake has a great chance of reappearing than Pac-Man has at being in the game. For Snake, they already have a moveset designed and a certain amount of balance that his appearance gives to the game. Not to mention they are trying not to cut characters. Considering all the legal loopholes it takes to get the character in the game, that statement would signify that they would have already taken most of these steps for pre-existing characters. He also had the same amount of releases within the previous generation (MGS: TS for GC, and Snake Eater 3D for the 3DS). So his appearances would not limit his chances.With Mega Man and Sonic, plus the addition of Snake, that's already a good amount of third party characters. Every third party addition lowers Pac-Man chances, because Sakurai specifically limited the amount of third party characters.

Let's also remember that the current third party reps are not reflective of the company.They are there because of their standing as characters. There are there because of the characters. Sakurai spoke to Hideo Kojima when trying to get Snake in the game, not the Konami higher ups. The whole concept of a Namco-Bandai rep relies on the idea that Namco-Bandai will get favorable treatment due to them developing the game. Which Sakurai flat out denied, in a way he didn't necessarily need to do considering his comments about a Capcom character.

Comparing against other Nintendo characters, Pac-Man is generally expected and considered likely. He may not have majority over characters such as Mewtwo, K. Rool, Ridley or Little Mac, Pac-Man is currently the most popular choice for a newcoming third-party. In the Rate Their Chances thread, by the 30-day limit, Pac-Man placed 9th as most likely newcomer, over Toad, Bandana Dee, Bowser Junior, Krystal, Isaac, Shulk or Tetra. In popularity, Pac-Man placed 18th, over Miis, Tingle and others. In the poll thread, Pac-Man is a common character, around Bottom Tier, the only "higher" character is Banjo-Kazooie, which is nearly impossible considering their alliance with Microsoft. He's still higher than Toad, Takamaru, Tetra, Impa, Tingle, a F-Zero character or any other third-party character.

Pac-Man, while an average and popular choice, is considered the best Namco-Bandai character to be included, and is still more popular than some "shoo-in" characters.

Again, the discussion in rate the chances are objectionable at best. Many don't factor in Sakurai's words and consider that their co-development increases Pac-Man's chances. Not to mention many also still believe the E3 leak, despite the fact that second round of newcomers never happened.

And finally, I point you to the rules of RTC:
4. Never use this thread as an attempt to argue that a character is more likely/less likely because of this game. This is, in the end, a forum game and should be treated as such. It should not be taken into account when discussing character's odds. Again, winning arguments on the Internet doesn't magically make a character more likely.

Setting that aside, Pac-Man as compared to other Nintendo newcomers doesn't do so well because of the points we outline in Topic 1. He really doesn't contribute to game balance, at least from the ways we have thought about his characters. Looking at the batch of current newcomers, you can see each of them fitting into a fighting game archetype and specific playstyle. Other strong Nintendo newcomers can significantly contribute to the game balance:

Both Ridley and King K. Rool can add to the roster as heavy character, which Smash is sorely lacking. Palutena has a variety of Magic spells and summon as displayed in KI:U that can add to the roster, including various traps. Paper Mario has a variety of moves exclusive to his game such as his hammer that would give him a completely distinct moveset. Zoroark or a returning Mewtwo either have Zoroark's illusionary abilities or Mewtwo's mega forms.

But that's just currently repped franchises. Here's a list of deserving Nintendo Franchise with multiple games:
Golden Sun (3 games)
Advance Wars (12 games!!!)
Custom Robo (5 games)
Sin and Punishment (2 games)
Punch-Out!! (5 games)

Each of these games have chaacters that can contribute to game balance more with their diverse types of attacks better than Pac-Man. Isaac or Matthew could use a combination of psyenergy, weapons, summons, and djinn. Advance Wars reps like Andy or Sami could a use a variety of bazooka, grenades, as well as summoning attacking units and capturing the stages. Ray Mk II has a variety of customizable energy based attacks, weapons,and guns that could make him a formidable smasher. Saki or Isa Jo (fro S&P) have their shooting ability as well as their sword play and hovering abilities. And Little Mac has the star mechanic, countering, dodging, and other boxing techniques.

Why did I name off all these characters? Because I mentioned various unique attacks that only they can do in a single sentence. It's much harder to do that for Pac-Man. His proposed movesets don't contributes as much to game balance, and his tradition of being from the balanced archetype in games means he probably can't significantly contribute the game balance. The same can't be said for his third party brethren, Snake, Mega Man and Sonic. Their styles come straight from their respective games and are really different from anyone in Smash. The same can't be said about Pac-Man.

And that's not including retro reps like Takamaru and Mach Rider.

Pac-Man doesn't have an edge in inclusion over Nintendo characters. His appearance would not significantly balance gameplay in the way that Sonic, Mega Man, and Snake can and have. And there are many more unique Nintendo newcomers (both from veteran and new franchises) that have a diverse range of attacks that can also balance the game better,

 

[APC99]

Remember the first point Team Anti Pac-Man made in the debate:
"Would we even be asking this question with the same amount of demand and fervor if Namco wasn't co-developing the game? "
This will be important for the next few points.

On Namco Bandai reps in general:
I find a Namco Bandai rep unlikely because the words out of Sakurai's mouth:
Sakurai: "Just because the game is being cooperatively developed with Namco Bandai involved, that doesn’t at all mean that they’d be given any special consideration for having characters in the game."
Source: http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06...ters-receive-no-priority-for-super-smash-bros

Well, what if he's just denying the character so it's bigger surprise? Consider his previous responses:
On Mega Man (from a quote about capcom characters):
contrast how he talks about capcom character:
http://wiiugo.com/super-smash-bros-4-may-feature-a-capcom-character/
"I can’t say that it’s entirely out of the realm of possibility that some Capcom character could appear in the next Smash Bros."

And the way he's talked about other potential 1st party characters:
http://mynintendonews.com/2013/06/19/sakurai-is-considering-mewtwo-for-smash-bros-wii-u-3ds/
At Pokemon X and Y panel, the developers declined to give a solid answer on Mewtwo in Smash, but Sakurai then shouted out, from the audience, “We are thinking about it.”

On other third party reps:
http://www.vg247.com/2013/06/14/super-smash-bros-unlikely-to-have-more-third-party-characters/
"But I think I can say generally that there won't be a trend of adding a lot of third-party characters. You can sort of think of Mega Man as being the special case."

Snake has a great chance of reappearing than Pac-Man has at being in the game. For Snake, they already have a moveset designed and a certain amount of balance that his appearance gives to the game. Not to mention they are trying not to cut characters. Considering all the legal loopholes it takes to get the character in the game, that statement would signify that they would have already taken most of these steps for pre-existing characters. He also had the same amount of releases within the previous generation (MGS: TS for GC, and Snake Eater 3D for the 3DS). So his appearances would not limit his chances.With Mega Man and Sonic, plus the addition of Snake, that's already a good amount of third party characters. Every third party addition lowers Pac-Man chances, because Sakurai specifically limited the amount of third party characters.

Let's also remember that the current third party reps are not reflective of the company.They are there because of their standing as characters. There are there because of the characters. Sakurai spoke to Hideo Kojima when trying to get Snake in the game, not the Konami higher ups. The whole concept of a Namco-Bandai rep relies on the idea that Namco-Bandai will get favorable treatment due to them developing the game. Which Sakurai flat out denied, in a way he didn't necessarily need to do considering his comments about a Capcom character.

I've never doubted Snake yet. Kojima and Sakurai are friends, and that's how Snake got in. Yes, it's an exception to the normal rule. And, Namco's not getting any special treatment. So, is Pac-Man worthy? The point is he is, and as the contest goes, he fares well against other Namco characters, even though that's irrelevant. Yes, third-parties aren't reflective of company. Yet, Pac-Man has been a big part of Nintendo, and has ties with them. There may be a limiting of third-party characters. This means Sakurai's going to eventually stop. So, why would he not add Pac-Man and then stop?

Again, the discussion in rate the chances are objectionable at best. Many don't factor in Sakurai's words and consider that their co-development increases Pac-Man's chances. Not to mention many also still believe the E3 leak, despite the fact that second round of newcomers never happened.

And finally, I point you to the rules of RTC:
4. Never use this thread as an attempt to argue that a character is more likely/less likely because of this game. This is, in the end, a forum game and should be treated as such. It should not be taken into account when discussing character's odds. Again, winning arguments on the Internet doesn't magically make a character more likely.

Setting that aside, Pac-Man as compared to other Nintendo newcomers doesn't do so well because of the points we outline in Topic 1. He really doesn't contribute to game balance, at least from the ways we have thought about his characters. Looking at the batch of current newcomers, you can see each of them fitting into a fighting game archetype and specific playstyle. Other strong Nintendo newcomers can significantly contribute to the game balance:

If Pac-Man were to be considered for Smash 4, would Sakurai REALLY just quit because "he doesn't contribute to balance?" No. Sakurai always finds a way to balance characters. How would we consider R.O.B. balanced before he came in Brawl? Diddy Kong? Wario? We'd never consider what made them "balanced" (Diddy's banana peels, R.O.B.'s flight, Wario's bike and farts), and who's to say Pac-Man is just going to be a plain character? If Sakurai wants Pac-Man, he'd find a way to balance him.

Both Ridley and King K. Rool can add to the roster as heavy character, which Smash is sorely lacking. Palutena has a variety of Magic spells and summon as displayed in KI:U that can add to the roster, including various traps. Paper Mario has a variety of moves exclusive to his game such as his hammer that would give him a completely distinct moveset. Zoroark or a returning Mewtwo either have Zoroark's illusionary abilities or Mewtwo's mega forms.

I'm not going to argue here, as I support all here but Zoroark. However, you can't claim Paper Mario can add to the game due to a distinct moveset. Any character can have a distinct moveset. Here's my question: Why is Pac-Man unworthy, when last round we proved Pac-Man has plenty of potential? Switching between his Pac-Mode and normal stance is a very Sakurai-esque thing to do. As stated against Pac-Man, "Just because a character has moveset potential doesn't mean they'll use it." Is it a GIVEN that Sakurai would use Zoroark's illusions? Paper Mario's buddies? Mewtwo's mega form? Palutena's traps? No. Sakurai can do whatever he want, a character may have potential that Sakurai sees, but nobody else does, and vice versa.

But that's just currently repped franchises. Here's a list of deserving Nintendo Franchise with multiple games:
Golden Sun (3 games)
Advance Wars (12 games!!!)
Custom Robo (5 games)
Sin and Punishment (2 games)
Punch-Out!! (5 games)

Each of these games have chaacters that can contribute to game balance more with their diverse types of attacks better than Pac-Man. Isaac or Matthew could use a combination of psyenergy, weapons, summons, and djinn. Advance Wars reps like Andy or Sami could a use a variety of bazooka, grenades, as well as summoning attacking units and capturing the stages. Ray Mk II has a variety of customizable energy based attacks, weapons,and guns that could make him a formidable smasher. Saki or Isa Jo (fro S&P) have their shooting ability as well as their sword play and hovering abilities. And Little Mac has the star mechanic, countering, dodging, and other boxing techniques.

Why did I name off all these characters? Because I mentioned various unique attacks that only they can do in a single sentence. It's much hard to do that for Pac-Man. His proposed movesets don't contributes as much to game balance, and his tradition of being from the balanced archetype in games means he probably can't significantly contribute the game balance. The same can't be said for his third party brethren, Snake, Mega Man and Sonic. Their styles come straight from their respective games and are really different from anyone in Smash. The same can't be said about Pac-Man.

Pac-Man himself can use Power Pellets to change his gameplay, alongside summoning ghosts and transforming into a ball. I mentioned the gist of Pac-Man's "gimmick" in a sentence. I could do that with any character. The point of the amt. of games was to show Pac-Man was more important to Nintendo's history than any other Namco rep. Pac-Man's pretty different from other characters. If we use my moveset, we can see he's an approaching character who depends on traveling across the stage. Pac-Man can cancel momentum from both of his "Modes" with an input. This means Pac-Man travels around and collects knockback until he can lay down a few footstools in Ball Form, causing him to ricochet as a dangerous weapon. Pac-Mode allows him to go from a Dash Attack into a gravity-defying projectile. Any direction for unlimited time, until he takes about 15% and reverts to normal or putd in an input. Does that "debalance" anything?

And that's not including retro reps like Takamaru and Mach Rider.

Pac-Man doesn't have an edge in inclusion over Nintendo characters. His appearance would not significantly balance gameplay in the way that Sonic, Mega Man, and Snake can and have. And there are many more unique Nintendo newcomers (both from veteran and new franchises) that have a diverse range of attacks that can also balance the game better,

Yes, there are maby characters who deserve to be in more than Pac-Man. Little Mac, King K. Rool, Ridley, Palutena, they're all a bit more important to be included. Yet, Pac-Man's nostalgic abilities and a few new ones allow him to be diverse as well. And, honestly, Sonic isn't as diverse as people think. Spinning isn't unique. He can homing attack, jump from a spring, run really fast, spin dash and rev up for an attack. Very different. Not going to argue for Sonic, though, because Pac-Man has plenty of unique moves.

There you go.

 

[Spears In Smash Bros.]

Despite the immense number of Pac-Man games on Nintendo systems, it should be worth noting that Pac-Man games have appeared on virtually every video game console in existence, modern or otherwise. In fact, Pac-Man's presence on Nintendo consoles has diminished in recent years: only four new Pac-Man games and a Virtual Console title have been released on Nintendo consoles since 2006, not counting retro game collections like Namco Museum or the Mario Kart Arcade GP cabinets. (List of Pac-Man video games - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

In that time period, there have been multiple Pac-Man games released on every major console EXCEPT for Nintendo consoles. Especially notable are Pac-Man's exploits in the smartphone market: since 2010, there have been 10 new Pac-Man games released for iOS and Android as well as one compilation release. Even Pac-Man and the Ghostly Adventures, Bamco's largest Pac-Man related venture in recent memory, is a multiplatform title.
This is in contrast to, say, Sonic, whose games have almost all been on Nintendo systems ever since Sega withdrew from the console market. The one notable exception? Sonic The Hedgehog 2006.

Also, Klonoa had 3 GBA games, not 2, and the volleyball game was for the PS1. Just putting that out there.

 

[Zzuxon]

Remember the first point Team Anti Pac-Man made in the debate:
"Would we even be asking this question with the same amount of demand and fervor if Namco wasn't co-developing the game? "
This will be important for the next few points.

On Namco Bandai reps in general:
I find a Namco Bandai rep unlikely because the words out of Sakurai's mouth:
Sakurai: "Just because the game is being cooperatively developed with Namco Bandai involved, that doesn’t at all mean that they’d be given any special consideration for having characters in the game."
I hardly think a character as influential and iconic as Pac-Man needs special consideration.

Source:
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06...ters-receive-no-priority-for-super-smash-bros

Well, what if he's just denying the character so it's bigger surprise? Consider his previous responses:
On Mega Man (from a quote about capcom characters):
contrast how he talks about capcom character:
http://wiiugo.com/super-smash-bros-4-may-feature-a-capcom-character/
"I can’t say that it’s entirely out of the realm of possibility that some Capcom character could appear in the next Smash Bros."

And the way he's talked about other potential 1st party characters:
http://mynintendonews.com/2013/06/19/sakurai-is-considering-mewtwo-for-smash-bros-wii-u-3ds/
At Pokemon X and Y panel, the developers declined to give a solid answer on Mewtwo in Smash, but Sakurai then shouted out, from the audience, “We are thinking about it.”

On other third party reps:
http://www.vg247.com/2013/06/14/super-smash-bros-unlikely-to-have-more-third-party-characters/
"But I think I can say generally that there won't be a trend of adding a lot of third-party characters. You can sort of think of Mega Man as being the special case."

Snake has a great chance of reappearing than Pac-Man has at being in the game. For Snake, they already have a moveset designed and a certain amount of balance that his appearance gives to the game. Not to mention they are trying not to cut characters. Considering all the legal loopholes it takes to get the character in the game, that statement would signify that they would have already taken most of these steps for pre-existing characters. He also had the same amount of releases within the previous generation (MGS: TS for GC, and Snake Eater 3D for the 3DS). So his appearances would not limit his chances.With Mega Man and Sonic, plus the addition of Snake, that's already a good amount of third party characters. Every third party addition lowers Pac-Man chances, because Sakurai specifically limited the amount of third party characters.

Let's also remember that the current third party reps are not reflective of the company.They are there because of their standing as characters. There are there because of the characters.
So, Pac-man couldn't get in on his own merits?
Sakurai spoke to Hideo Kojima when trying to get Snake in the game, not the Konami higher ups. The whole concept of a Namco-Bandai rep relies on the idea that Namco-Bandai will get favorable treatment due to them developing the game. Which Sakurai flat out denied, in a way he didn't necessarily need to do considering his comments about a Capcom character.

Some valid points here, but tell me. If Sakurai did a cursory examination of expectations or wishes on the internet, would he see a website like ours, full of rationale and reasonable expectations? No, he would see 120 character fan rosters with 9 Sonic characters and Banjo. It seems likely to me that when he says "a lot" of 3rd parties, that is what he means, not 4.
,

 

[jaytalks]

I've never doubted Snake yet. Kojima and Sakurai are friends, and that's how Snake got in. Yes, it's an exception to the normal rule. And, Namco's not getting any special treatment. So, is Pac-Man worthy? The point is he is, and as the contest goes, he fares well against other Namco characters, even though that's irrelevant. Yes, third-parties aren't reflective of company. Yet, Pac-Man has been a big part of Nintendo, and has ties with them. There may be a limiting of third-party characters. This means Sakurai's going to eventually stop. So, why would he not add Pac-Man and then stop?

I disagree with the idea of this topic because it separates guest characters by company, which doesn't make sense to.

The question should be, why would he add Pac-Man in the first place? He's not overly popular (more on that tomorrow). Sakurai doesn't have to add any third party characters. He chooses to add the ones that are worthy. Do you think Pac-Man game ranked third in that character poll he did for Brawl? I very much doubt it, considering the other popularity ratings we have seen over the years (again, more on that tomorrow).

If Pac-Man were to be considered for Smash 4, would Sakurai REALLY just quit because "he doesn't contribute to balance?" No. Sakurai always finds a way to balance characters. How would we consider R.O.B. balanced before he came in Brawl? Diddy Kong? Wario? We'd never consider what made them "balanced" (Diddy's banana peels, R.O.B.'s flight, Wario's bike and farts), and who's to say Pac-Man is just going to be a plain character? If Sakurai wants Pac-Man, he'd find a way to balance him.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Here are the four criteria Sakurai during the Brawl days outlined for a character to be added to Smash:
1. The character's inclusion must make people want to play the game.
2. The character must be unique.
3. The character must fit into the style of Super Smash Bros.
4. They must contribute to the game balance.

My point isnt that Pac-Man can't contribute to balance. I just haven't seen a strong argument about his abilities to balance. I've mention various timesabout fighting game archetypes and the movesets I've seen don't seem to make him stand out.

It's not that Pac-Man can't contribute to game balance. It's that the other characters I pointed to do it better. Don't just tell me Sakurai can balance him. Tell me what inherent characteristics make him good at balancing. Because I can do that for any of the characters I have below. I'll do an example with an AW character below.

I'm not going to argue here, as I support all here but Zoroark. However, you can't claim Paper Mario can add to the game due to a distinct moveset. Any character can have a distinct moveset. Here's my question: Why is Pac-Man unworthy, when last round we proved Pac-Man has plenty of potential? Switching between his Pac-Mode and normal stance is a very Sakurai-esque thing to do. As stated against Pac-Man, "Just because a character has moveset potential doesn't mean they'll use it." Is it a GIVEN that Sakurai would use Zoroark's illusions? Paper Mario's buddies? Mewtwo's mega form? Palutena's traps? No. Sakurai can do whatever he want, a character may have potential that Sakurai sees, but nobody else does, and vice versa.

I listed Paper Mario for franchise diversity. If you don't agree with that character, I could easily sub in Bowser Jr and his painting abilities and paint brush based attacks.

Both Spears in Smash Bros and I listed our problems with that approach with the Pac-Mode

What moves are Pac-Man unique? I can see the Pac-Mode but there needs to be significant changes to the mode you outlined. How does he balance characters currently in the game or that will probably in the game.

Sami: Balances against speedster like Sonic and Marth via her capture mechanic. The capture mechanic can create a small building that can slow down the speedsters and block projectiles. However, her light weight makes her vulnerable to high damage, and her money based ammunition (see the Sami thread for more) make her susceptible to heavy hitters like Bowser and Ike.

Pac-Man himself can use Power Pellets to change his gameplay, alongside summoning ghosts and transforming into a ball. I mentioned the gist of Pac-Man's "gimmick" in a sentence. I could do that with any character. The point of the amt. of games was to show Pac-Man was more important to Nintendo's history than any other Namco rep. Pac-Man's pretty different from other characters. If we use my moveset, we can see he's an approaching character who depends on traveling across the stage. Pac-Man can cancel momentum from both of his "Modes" with an input. This means Pac-Man travels around and collects knockback until he can lay down a few footstools in Ball Form, causing him to ricochet as a dangerous weapon. Pac-Mode allows him to go from a Dash Attack into a gravity-defying projectile. Any direction for unlimited time, until he takes about 15% and reverts to normal or putd in an input. Does that "debalance" anything?

The Pac-Mode still has an infinite recovery. If you were at the bottom of the Kraid Stage and about to die, Pac-Man could infinitely fly up. And when does he stop.

Ball Mode still seems weak to me.

Yes, there are maby characters who deserve to be in more than Pac-Man. Little Mac, King K. Rool, Ridley, Palutena, they're all a bit more important to be included. Yet, Pac-Man's nostalgic abilities and a few new ones allow him to be diverse as well. And, honestly, Sonic isn't as diverse as people think. Spinning isn't unique. He can homing attack, jump from a spring, run really fast, spin dash and rev up for an attack. Very different. Not going to argue for Sonic, though, because Pac-Man has plenty of unique moves.

I'm not going to get into which characters "deserve" to be in Smash. Because Smash is a privilege for any character as far as I'm concerned.

I noticed you left out most of the other Nintendo newcomers. And any Nintendo All-Star deserves to be in Smash more than a guest third party character. Because it's s "an all-star collection of Nintendo characters."Third party character get in only "for a special situation." So Isaac, Andy, Saki, Ray Mk II, Chibi Robo, and Tom Nook (etc) also deserve to be in Smash before Pac-Man.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06...ters-receive-no-priority-for-super-smash-bros

Sonic is Mario's greatest rival and has a string of Nintendo exclusives, which are the better titles he's had since going multi-platform. Mega Man's first six games were for the NES, as well as Mega Man 7, 9, 10, and Rock Man and Bass being for nintendo exclusive. His success and the NES's success was tied together. Snake got in due to a special friendship between Sakurai and Kojima, as well as introduce Snake to a younger generation of Nintendo gamers.
Source for Snake info: http://www.joystiq.com/2012/03/19/thank-kojimas-son-for-getting-snake-into-smash-bros-brawl/
What's the special situation for Pac-Man? It's not because they are co-developing. When's the last time Nintendo got an exclusive good Pac-Man game (the one designed by Miyamoto I guess). Actually, when's the last time Nintendo got a really good Pac-Man game in general? The mixed reception of the Pac-Man World series?

Running really fast is really unique. The speed he runs is faster than any other character. And his playstyle is dependent mainly on his speed, which is how it differs from other characters. Playstyle matters.

So, Pac-man couldn't get in on his own merits?

Some valid points here, but tell me. If Sakurai did a cursory examination of expectations or wishes on the internet, would he see a website like ours, full of rationale and reasonable expectations? No, he would see 120 character fan rosters with 9 Sonic characters and Banjo. It seems likely to me that when he says "a lot" of 3rd parties, that is what he means, not 4.

Tell me what those merits are in terms of Nintendo history. I told you about Mega Man's and Sonic's (Snake got in through a connection) Smash Bros is not a celebration of great video game characters. It's a game about Nintendo characters.

He said about the same during the brawl days. And we only got two in Brawl. I'm just saying a minimum is to be expected, so if we get three, Pac-Man's chances go down. It's just simple math.

In that time period, there have been multiple Pac-Man games released on every major console EXCEPT for Nintendo consoles. Especially notable are Pac-Man's exploits in the smartphone market: since 2010, there have been 10 new Pac-Man games released for iOS and Android as well as one compilation release. Even Pac-Man and the Ghostly Adventures, Bamco's largest Pac-Man related venture in recent memory, is a multiplatform title.

Let's also keep in mind that the greatest Pac-Man game in the last twenty years by went to the other two consoles..
http://www.metacritic.com/search/all/pac-man/results?sort=score
Pac-Man Championship's DX version was not ported to the Wii.

 

[APC99]

I disagree with the idea of this topic because it separates guest characters by company, which doesn't make sense to.

The question should be, why would he add Pac-Man in the first place? He's not overly popular (more on that tomorrow). Sakurai doesn't have to add any third party characters. He chooses to add the ones that are worthy. Do you think Pac-Man game ranked third in that character poll he did for Brawl? I very much doubt it, considering the other popularity ratings we have seen over the years (again, more on that tomorrow).

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Here are the four criteria Sakurai during the Brawl days outlined for a character to be added to Smash:
1. The character's inclusion must make people want to play the game.
2. The character must be unique.
3. The character must fit into the style of Super Smash Bros.
4. They must contribute to the game balance.

My point isnt that Pac-Man can't contribute to balance. I just haven't seen a strong argument about his abilities to balance. I've mention various times fighting game archetypes and the movesets I've seen don't seem to make him stand out.

It's not that Pac-Man can't contribute to game balance. It's that the other characters I pointed to do it better. Don't just tell me Sakurai can balance him. Tell me what inherent characteristics make him good at balancing. Because I can do that for any of the characters I have below. I'll do an example with an AW character below.


I listed Paper Mario for franchise diversity. If you don't agree with that character, I could easily sub in Bowser Jr and his painting abilities and paint brush based attacks.

Both Spears in Smash Bros and I listed our problems with that approach with the Pac-Mode

What moves are Pac-Man unique? I can see the Pac-Mode but there needs to be significant changes to the mode you outlined. How does he balance characters currently in the game or that will probably in the game.

Sami: Balances against speedster like Sonic and Marth via her capture mechanic. The capture mechanic can create a small building that can slow down the speedsters and block projectiles. However, her light weight makes her vulnerable to high damage, and her money based ammunition (see the Sami thread for more) make her susceptible to heavy hitters like Bowser and Ike.


The Pac-Mode still has an infinite recovery. If you were at the bottom of the Kraid Stage and about to die, Pac-Man could infinitely fly up. And when does he stop.

Ball Mode still seems weak to me.


I'm not going to get into which characters "deserve" to be in Smash. Because Smash is a privilege for any character as far as I'm concerned.

I noticed you left out most of the other Nintendo newcomers. And any Nintendo All-Star deserves to be in Smash more than a guest third party character. Because it's s "an all-star collection of Nintendo characters."Third party character get in only "for a special situation." So Isaac, Andy, Saki, Ray Mk II, Chibi Robo, and Tom Nook (etc) also deserve to be in Smash before Pac-Man.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06...ters-receive-no-priority-for-super-smash-bros

Sonic is Mario's greatest rival and has a string of Nintendo exclusives, which are the better titles he's had since going multi-platform. Mega Man's first six games were for the NES, as well as Mega Man 7, 9, 10, and Rock Man and Bass being for nintendo exclusive. His success and the NES's success was tied together. Snake got in due to a special friendship between Sakurai and Kojima, as well as introduce Snake to a younger generation of Nintendo gamers.
Source for Snake info: http://www.joystiq.com/2012/03/19/thank-kojimas-son-for-getting-snake-into-smash-bros-brawl/
What's the special situation for Pac-Man? It's not because they are co-developing. When's the last time Nintendo got an exclusive good Pac-Man game (the one designed by Miyamoto I guess). Actually, when's the last time Nintendo got a really good Pac-Man game in general? The mixed reception of the Pac-Man World series?

Running really fast is really unique. The speed he runs is faster than any other character. And his playstyle is dependent mainly on his speed, which is how it differs from other characters. Playstyle matters.

Tell me what those merits are in terms of Nintendo history. I told you about Mega Man's and Sonic's (Snake got in through a connection) Smash Bros is not a celebration of great video game characters. It's a game about Nintendo characters.

He said about the same during the brawl days. And we only got two in Brawl. I'm just saying a minimum is to be expected, so if we get three, Pac-Man's chances go down. It's just simple math.



Let's also keep in mind that the greatest Pac-Man game in the last twenty years by far wasn't released for a Nintendo System.
http://www.metacritic.com/search/all/pac-man/results?sort=score
Pac-Man Championship Edition and its DX version went to the other two consoles.

UGH I'm tired.

Pac-Mode can only be activated in Dash Attack. By taking 15%, you will revert to Pac-Mode. If Pac-Man can stand on something, he can use Pac-Mode. Pac-Man himself will not be able to negotiate to the bottom unless he's in Pac-Mode. In reality, there's no way Pac-Man can use Pac-Mode as recovery. Metal Gear Solid also is making it's next game for everything but Nintendo, yet we all still see Snake make it in. Pac-Man and Galaga Dimensions was among the greater recent Pac-Man games that was Nintendo-exclusive. AS for Pac-Man's history, he was among the first on the NES, appeared opposite Mario in arcade games, Miyatmoto loves him, it can re-introduce the world to a nostalgic character revived once again.

For your 3rd-party statement, there is not a single statement we'll get only 3. 4 is very likely.


OK, I'm going to bed.

 

[Pacack]

I honestly think that the Pro-Pac side is simply filled with people that aren't as good at arguing at this point.

Though I am confused about how adding another character with the "balanced" archetype is not contributing to game's balance. If Pac-Man was made a "balanced" character, then is he not inherently making the game more balanced? I don't see any way that Pac-Man COULD be broken that way, since someone that has a weird gimmick (such as Diddy Kong) seems more likely to break the game than anything else. I don't know, but that argument is one that I cannot get behind whatsoever.

 

[jaytalks]

UGH I'm tired.

Pac-Mode can only be activated in Dash Attack. By taking 15%, you will revert to Pac-Mode. If Pac-Man can stand on something, he can use Pac-Mode. Pac-Man himself will not be able to negotiate to the bottom unless he's in Pac-Mode. In reality, there's no way Pac-Man can use Pac-Mode as recovery. Metal Gear Solid also is making it's next game for everything but Nintendo, yet we all still see Snake make it in. Pac-Man and Galaga Dimensions was among the greater recent Pac-Man games that was Nintendo-exclusive. AS for Pac-Man's history, he was among the first on the NES, appeared opposite Mario in arcade games, Miyatmoto loves him, it can re-introduce the world to a nostalgic character revived once again.

For your 3rd-party statement, there is not a single statement we'll get only 3. 4 is very likely.


OK, I'm going to bed.

Ok. That makes sense.

Snake was already in Brawl. He doesn't need to prove his worth since he already proved it by making it into Brawl. He has the exact same type of releases as he did pre-brawl (one remake for a nintendo console [Twin Snakes and Snake Eater])He would be a returning veteran at this point.

That's more of what I want to hear for Pac-Man's history, although I don't think he needs a reintroduction. He hasn't really ever left. There's a Pac-Man game at least every two years. However, on a personal note, I never want to see his new redesign if I can help it. It's everything done wrong in reintroducing. It make the character unnecessaily look more complex (Mario has never needed shoelaces), humanizes him far too much, andand takes away the mystery that came with his initial design.

I'm just saying a minimum is to be expected, so if we get three (including Snake), Pac-Man's chances go down. It's just simple math. How is 4 very likely? Pac-Man isn't very likely in the least. Namco-Bandai's development has no affect on his chances. There's no requirement for Sakurai to add any additional third party characters, and he seems less inclined to do so.

I honestly think that the Pro-Pac side is simply filled with people that aren't as good at arguing at this point.

Though I am confused about how adding another character with the "balanced" archetype is not contributing to game's balance. If Pac-Man was made a "balanced" character, then is he not inherently making the game more balanced? I don't see any way that Pac-Man COULD be broken that way, since someone that has a weird gimmick (such as Diddy Kong) seems more likely to break the game than anything else. I don't know, but that argument is one that I cannot get behind whatsoever.

Let's not say that. They have some really good points.

The balanced archetype is just the term. A balanced character can still be broken. And can complement and be weak to other characters. The reason I'm harping on it is because it was yesterday's topic. And the way that Sakurai describes game balance: "Everyone has to fit together. Every new character must counter some characters and be countered by others, and they must fit in one giant contiguous mesh." That's the way I'm looking at it. How he meshes with other characters.

 

[Pacack]

The balanced archetype is just the term. A balanced character can still be broken. And can complement and be weak to other characters. The reason I'm harping on it is because it was yesterday's topic. And the way that Sakurai describes game balance: "Everyone has to fit together. Every new character must counter some characters and be countered by others, and they must fit in one giant contiguous mesh." That's the way I'm looking at it. How he meshes with other characters.

I always saw characters like Mario to be fairly well-balanced, myself. However, I am not a competitive player by any stretch of the imagination, so I guess I shouldn't really be talking. In the end, though, doesn't that mainly have to do with hitboxes, data about the damage, the frame lag, etc. that make a character balanced or unbalanced, rather than the concept behind those moves? Heck, Meta Knight wouldn't be so broken if he had more lagtime. I just don't see how an original concept or unique gimmick has anything to do with the "balance" of a character one way on another. It's all in the implementation and the way it's programmed, no? Otherwise, things like Project M would have to completely remake a moveset from scratch instead of just fine-tuning the concepts (Mewtwo being the prime example).

 

[Johnknight1]

Bah, what do these youngins know about Smash debating? Back in my day we didn't have any officials or judges, we did it for the love of the sport! Sometimes we had to debate in the snow, walking uphill, with only our spirits and our determination to prove SmashChu wrong to keep us warm! We weren't just master debaters, we were cunning linguists!

That said, I'm going to put 20 on Pro Pac-Man.

Don't even get me started on the Smashroid scandals of the 80's 00's. It was ridiculous. Everyone was hitting the juice. But not me. I stayed pure, and I rose through GameFAQs the minors to the big leagues. It was a rocky start, as I hated all Japan-only characters but Marth and Roy and I typed in txt tlk ran into some rookie troubles, but I stayed pure, and I rose to the top.

And now, HERE I AM!!! THE SMASH BOARDS WORLD CHAMP, THE RIDLEY WORLD CHAMP, AND THE LUCARIO WORLD CHAMP!!!

Kids, if the story of the LEGENDARY Johnknight1 tells you anything, it's that THE BAD GUY ALWAYS WINS!!!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Don't even get me started on the Smashroid scandals of the 80's 00's. It was ridiculous. Everyone was hitting the juice. But not me. I stayed pure, and I rose through GameFAQs the minors to the big leagues. It was a rocky start, as I hated all Japan-only characters but Marth and Roy and I typed in txt tlk ran into some rookie troubles, but I stayed pure, and I rose to the top.

And now, HERE I AM!!! THE SMASH BOARDS WORLD CHAMP, THE RIDLEY WORLD CHAMP, AND THE LUCARIO WORLD CHAMP!!!

Kids, if the story of the LEGENDARY Johnknight1 tells you anything, it's that THE BAD GUY ALWAYS WINS!!!

Ah yes John. That brings back memories.

Your accomplishments inspired me to start my own career.

I never would have gone through that Swampasaur vs Divine debate if it wasn't seeing you on the tele when I was young!

 

[Johnknight1]

@ Venus
I have a mic!!!!
Just look at my avatar!!!
Let me be the in ring announcer this time!!!


"Live from the Sold Out Empty Super Dome In New Orleans, Louisiana,
And watched by and watched by millions dozens of DEBATEMANIA fans around the globe,
At last! IIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTT'SSSS SMAAAASSSSSSSHHHIIIIIIIINNNNNGGGGG TIMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

FIVE ROUNDS FOR THE UNDISPUTED PAC-MAN CHAMPIONSHIP OF THE WORLD!!!!!

Introducing First...
...FIGHTING out of the White Corner!!!!

This team holds a combined record of 0 wins, 0 defeats, making their pro debut, with a height of over 20 feet tall, weighing in at over 700 pounds, 318 kilograms,
Fighting out of Smash Boards, USA, TEAMMMMMM ANTIII-PACCCC-MMAANANNNNNNNN!!!!

AND NOW, presenting the team FIGHTING out of the yellow corner!!!

This team holds a combined record of 0 wins, 0 defeats, also making their pro debut, standing at over 22 feet tall, weighing in at over 750 pounds, 341 kilograms,
Fighting out of the Pac-Man Amazing Full Color Fan Club!, Central Military Command, TEAMMMMM PACCCCCC-MMMAAAAAAHHHNNNNN!!!!!

 

[Spears In Smash Bros.]

The weights you gave are waaay off the mark. Both of those amounts need to be a good 3 to 4 times greater.

 

[Johnknight1]

The weights you gave are waaay off the mark. Both of those amounts need to be a good 3 to 4 times greater.

That's why I said "over".

Ah yes John. That brings back memories.

Your accomplishments inspired me to start my own career.

I never would have gone through that Swampasaur vs Divine debate if it wasn't seeing you on the tele when I was young!

Why I am thankful that my Hall of Fame career inspired what should be a first ballot Hall of Fame career you had a quick jump start on.

I'm glad I posted back in the ole' days when we had AIM, not Skype Twitter, and MySpace, not Facebook Twitter, and Google video, not Youtube Twitter.

 

[jaytalks]

What I don't get is why Team Pro-Pac is heavier. Is it because they eat more power pellets?

 

[Johnknight1]

So guys, I can do whatever.

Be the annoying fan, be the cool fan, be a panelist, host the post-game show, host the pre-game show, be a commentator, be a ring side interviewer, continue to be the in ring announcer, be a referee, be a dirty referee, be the token Hall of Famer, be the trophy/belt presenter (hint: name it after me), etc.

What I don't get is why Team Pro-Pac is heavier. Is it because they eat more power pellets?

I figured their age was higher, given what I skimmed.

That's also why I made them weigh more, too.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Hello everyone!

Its great to see everyone turn out for the debate! Round 3 has drawn to a close and Round 4 has begun! The topic of discussion is:

Popularity vs Nolstagia

Basically, can Pac Man get into Smash through popularity or Nolstagia, both, or not at all? I'm sorry for the short post but I don't have much time to make a long one.

Discuss!

 

[LoneKonWolf]

sooooooooo . . . . . . . is round 4 canceled or something?

 

[Conviction]

Well participants seem to be MIA

 

[LoneKonWolf]

dang hope something comes up soon

 

[jaytalks]

This moving about at the same pace as it did with the previous days. Which means it's starting RIGHT NOW!

Popularity matters most to third party characters, considering the addition of Sonic and Mega Man. Sonic and Mega Man were specifically cited as being included in part because of the popularity. Although the poll results have never been released, Sakurai has confirmed that both Sonic and Mega Man received first and second place respectively. The best example we have of Pac-Man loss in popularity would be the Game FAQs character battles. He isn't even that strong in the nostalgic area for that matter, as Game Faqs' community tends to favor older/retro characters.

The Character Battles are recurring poll on Game FAQs, in which characters are pitted against one another. Game FAQs is one of the most regularly visited sites for gamers, with the results of these polls totally any where from 50,000 to 100,000 votes overall (the finals get even higher numbers). Here is Pac-Man's History: http://board8.wikia.com/wiki/Pac-Man's_Contest_History
His strongest showing was way back in 2002, where he fell to Scorpion in his division semi-finals. But the most recent appearances showcases the character's dwindling popularity.

Spoiler

Summer 2002 Contest:
Southern Round 1 --- Defeated (16) Goemon, 41150 [72.21%] - 15839 [27.79%]
Defeated (9) Kyo Kusanagi, 32607 [62.84%] - 19282 [37.16%]
Lost to (5) Scorpion, 28936 [42.26%] - 39539 [57.74%]
Summer 2003 Contest:
Southern Round 1 --- Lost to (12) Kefka, 45905 [49.05%] - 47678 [50.95%]
Summer 2004 Contest:
Hyrule Round 1 --- Lost to (4) Luigi, 24299 [32.27%] - 51008 [67.73%]
Summer 2004 Contest:
20XX Round 1 --- Defeated (2) Revolver Ocelot, 46343 [51.25%] - 44075 [48.75%]
20XX Semifinal --- Lost to (3) Yoshi, 22893 [27.17%] - 61377 [72.83%]
Summer 2007 Contest:
Division 3 Round 1 --- 3rd place, Pac-Man, 13289 [10.11%] - Mario, 76130 [57.91%] - Big Boss, 30234 [23.00%] - Wander, 11819 [8.99%]
Summer 2008 Contest:
Division 6 Round 1 --- 2nd place, Pac-Man, 31487 [25.09%] - Mewtwo, 52487 [42.83%] - Ness, 22971 [18.31%] - Travis Touchdown, 18532 [14.77%]
Division 6 Round 2 --- 4th place, Pac-Man, 16959 [13.44%] - Cloud Strife, 67497 [53.49%] - Mewtwo, 21342 [16.91%] - Midna, 20386 [16.16%]
Summer 2013 Contest:
Division 6 Round 1 --- 2nd place, Pac-Man, 8974 [38.80%] - Nathan Drake, 9667 [41.80%] - Steve, 4488 [19.40%

This matters because relative to his other possible Smash third party brethren, Pac-Man is in a whole other league of character popularity. Mega Man, Sonic, Snake regularly dominate these contests because they are actually popular characters: http://board8.wikia.com/wiki/Noble_Nine. Basically, Mega Man, Snake, and Sonic were part of an elite group of characters that regularly dominated the contests from 2002 - 2010. In this period, they only lost one on one matches to each other.
Or if you want to check out there individual histories:

Spoiler

http://board8.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog's_Contest_History
http://board8.wikia.com/wiki/Solid_Snake's_Contest_History
http://board8.wikia.com/wiki/Mega_Man's_Contest_History

In the most recent contest (2013), Mega Man, Sonic, and Solid Snake all made it to their respective division finals, with Snake actually making it to the Contest Finals. Mega Man and Sonic unfortunately lost to their fellow smashes Samus and Mewtwo respectively.

What's that you say? Well Lucas or Olimar wouldn't so to well in this type of contest? Right. But let's remember, they are not third party characters. In a Nintendo All-Star game, they are perfectly able to join without needing to gauge their popularity. As I said yesterday, as far as I'm concerned, any Nintendo All-Star deserves to be in Smash more than a guest third party character. Because it's s "an all-star collection of Nintendo characters." For a third party character, it needs to be a "special situation." Which, unfortunately for Pac-Man, will not be because of his popularity.

Pac-Man is much less popular than Mega Man, Snake, and Sonic. They are leagues above him in terms of popularity. It's unfortunate, because he's such an iconic character. But the current third party characters we have or had in Brawl were popular on a grander scale in terms of the gaming community.

People are nostalgic for the game, not the man. Unlike other strong third party smashers, Pac-Man's best days were when he had no arms or legs in his games. It's what everyone remembers him for. And we are talking about adding Pac-Man, the character to Smash. Not Pac-Man, the arcade game.

What happens when you take the man out Pac-Man? You get Ms. Pac-Man, which was a far better game that its predecessor.