The Great Debatemania! PHASE 3, ROUND 5 START!

[Zzuxon]

Popularity matters most to third party characters, considering the addition of Sonic and Mega Man. Sonic and Mega Man were specifically cited as being included in part because of the popularity. Although the poll results have never been released, Sakurai has confirmed that both Sonic and Mega Man received first and second place respectively.

What's that you say? Well Lucas or Olimar wouldn't so to well in this type of contest? Right. But let's remember, they are not third party characters. In a Nintendo All-Star game, they are perfectly able to join without needing to gauge their popularity. As I said yesterday, as far as I'm concerned, any Nintendo All-Star deserves to be in Smash more than a guest third party character. Because it's s "an all-star collection of Nintendo characters." For a third party character, it needs to be a "special situation." Which, unfortunately for Pac-Man, will not be because of his popularity.

Pac-Man is much less popular than Mega Man, Snake, and Sonic. They are leagues above him in terms of popularity. It's unfortunate, because he's such an iconic character. But the current third party characters we have or had in Brawl were popular on a grander scale in terms of the gaming community.
I can't argue with this point. It's probably Pac-Man's biggest impediment. It comes down to whether popularity is the be-all end all for 3rd parties, or if significance to history is important for 3rd parties as well.

People are nostalgic for the game, not the man. Unlike other strong third party smashers, Pac-Man's best days were when he had no arms or legs in his games. It's what everyone remembers him for. And we are talking about adding Pac-Man, the character to Smash. Not Pac-Man, the arcade game.

What happens when you take the man out Pac-Man? You get Ms. Pac-Man, which was a far better game that its predecessor.
This I can rebutt. Saying a character is bad because people care about the game only is ridiculous. Mario, for instance has no character at all, beyond basic heroism. No-one cares about mario the character, only mario the games. By your logic, only Luigi, and Bowser should be in smash as Mario representatives. This extends to many characters, including but not limited to G&W, WFT, Captain Falcon, and ROB.
I'd even argue ALL characters are put in to represent games, not themselves.

 

[jaytalks]

This I can rebutt. Saying a character is bad because people care about the game only is ridiculous. Mario, for instance has no character at all, beyond basic heroism. No-one cares about mario the character, only mario the games. By your logic, only Luigi, and Bowser should be in smash as Mario representatives. This extends to many characters, including but not limited to G&W, WFT, Captain Falcon, and ROB.
I'd even argue ALL characters are put in to represent games, not themselves.

Never said that the character is bad. I said people have nostalgia for the game, not the character. If Namco announced a new Pac-Man game, Pac-Man World 4, the greater public would not be excited. If they announced a Pac-Man Championship Edition 2, they would be more excitement behind that. When a new Mario name get's announced, there's palpable excitement within the Nintendo community. Everyone gets excited for Link in Soul Calibur, for the next Zelda mechanic. I can go on and on about these character. Just look at the video game coverage of Pac-Man and the Ghostly Adventures compared to any other Nintendo series in Smash. Coverage follows excitement.

And I completely disagree with the fact that no one cares about the Mario character. This is going to sound like a bit of tangent, but bear with a little. People (reviewers, gamers, and developers) make the mistake of associating the traditional aspects of a story in other media (voice acting, dialogue, themes, etc.) with video games. The primary means by which story is conveyed in any game is through gameplay. The most important aspect of the Mario characters isn't that he's a hero who save Mushroom kingdom. It's that he jumps around doing it. He stomps Goombas and Koopas, and goes through grueling levels with small platforms to avoid spikes and lava. That is his character. That is his story. That is why people identify with Mario. Because when Mario jumps, you control his jump in a way you can't control in normal. You control the ascent and descent. Mario is us. And that's what makes him a great character.

Again, Pac-Man needs to be held to a higher standard, just like Mega Man, Sonic, and Snake because he is a third party guest character in a Nintendo All-Stars Game. In comparison to those characters, he falls short. Every first party characters gets in for their role in a Nintendo series, as a Nintedo All-Star. Game and Watch, original Game and Watch series, which started Nintendo's foray into electronic gaming. Wii Fit Trainer, character in Wii Fit, which showcases the casual and innovative features of the Wii. Captain Falcon, lead character of Nintendo's racing game series. R.O.B., saved western gaming from the crash of 1983, allowing the NES to succeed. But as a third party character, popularity for the character matters, because it's what Sakurai cited for both inclusions after Snake (and Snake still meets the criteria of popularity).

 

[APC99]

This moving about at the same pace as it did with the previous days. Which means it's starting RIGHT NOW!

Popularity matters most to third party characters, considering the addition of Sonic and Mega Man. Sonic and Mega Man were specifically cited as being included in part because of the popularity. Although the poll results have never been released, Sakurai has confirmed that both Sonic and Mega Man received first and second place respectively. The best example we have of Pac-Man loss in popularity would be the Game FAQs character battles. He isn't even that strong in the nostalgic area for that matter, as Game Faqs' community tends to favor older/retro characters.

Yes, because GameFAQS gives us the most likeliest characters. Pac-Man's still a popular character, with Pac-Man World and other games having a large fanbase. The reason he isn't popular is most people on GameFAQs might not have played Pac-Man's other adventures, only his arcade title. It's like asking somebody if Donkey Kong is worthy of being in Super Smash Bros. before Donkey Kong Country hits the world. Although DKC's far more recognized than Pac-Man World, more people know Donkey Kong due to the arcade as well. Back then character's didn't really have fleshed out storylines or personalities, so you can't favorite a character without knowing a bit about him.

The Character Battles are recurring poll on Game FAQs, in which characters are pitted against one another. Game FAQs is one of the most regularly visited sites for gamers, with the results of these polls totally any where from 50,000 to 100,000 votes overall (the finals get even higher numbers). Here is Pac-Man's History: http://board8.wikia.com/wiki/Pac-Man's_Contest_History
His strongest showing was way back in 2002, where he fell to Scorpion in his division semi-finals. But the most recent appearances showcases the character's dwindling popularity.

Spoiler

Summer 2002 Contest:
Southern Round 1 --- Defeated (16) Goemon, 41150 [72.21%] - 15839 [27.79%]
Defeated (9) Kyo Kusanagi, 32607 [62.84%] - 19282 [37.16%]
Lost to (5) Scorpion, 28936 [42.26%] - 39539 [57.74%]
Summer 2003 Contest:
Southern Round 1 --- Lost to (12) Kefka, 45905 [49.05%] - 47678 [50.95%]
Summer 2004 Contest:
Hyrule Round 1 --- Lost to (4) Luigi, 24299 [32.27%] - 51008 [67.73%]
Summer 2004 Contest:
20XX Round 1 --- Defeated (2) Revolver Ocelot, 46343 [51.25%] - 44075 [48.75%]
20XX Semifinal --- Lost to (3) Yoshi, 22893 [27.17%] - 61377 [72.83%]
Summer 2007 Contest:
Division 3 Round 1 --- 3rd place, Pac-Man, 13289 [10.11%] - Mario, 76130 [57.91%] - Big Boss, 30234 [23.00%] - Wander, 11819 [8.99%]
Summer 2008 Contest:
Division 6 Round 1 --- 2nd place, Pac-Man, 31487 [25.09%] - Mewtwo, 52487 [42.83%] - Ness, 22971 [18.31%] - Travis Touchdown, 18532 [14.77%]
Division 6 Round 2 --- 4th place, Pac-Man, 16959 [13.44%] - Cloud Strife, 67497 [53.49%] - Mewtwo, 21342 [16.91%] - Midna, 20386 [16.16%]
Summer 2013 Contest:
Division 6 Round 1 --- 2nd place, Pac-Man, 8974 [38.80%] - Nathan Drake, 9667 [41.80%] - Steve, 4488 [19.40%

This matters because relative to his other possible Smash third party brethren, Pac-Man is in a whole other league of character popularity. Mega Man, Sonic, Snake regularly dominate these contests because they are actually popular characters: http://board8.wikia.com/wiki/Noble_Nine. Basically, Mega Man, Snake, and Sonic were part of an elite group of characters that regularly dominated the contests from 2002 - 2010. In this period, they only lost one on one matches to each other.
Or if you want to check out there individual histories:

Spoiler

http://board8.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog's_Contest_History
http://board8.wikia.com/wiki/Solid_Snake's_Contest_History
http://board8.wikia.com/wiki/Mega_Man's_Contest_History

In the most recent contest (2013), Mega Man, Sonic, and Solid Snake all made it to their respective division finals, with Snake actually making it to the Contest Finals. Mega Man and Sonic unfortunately lost to their fellow smashes Samus and Mewtwo respectively.

Yes, Sonic, Snake and Rock all are more popular on a gaming website. It's expected Pac-Man wouldn't be in the top 10 due to my statement above about people being uneducated about his other games. Yet, you'd know that just because a character is "popular" doesn't mean they're not going to be in. If this is the logic, that more popular characters should get in, who exactly should they be, if you could choose?

What's that you say? Well Lucas or Olimar wouldn't so to well in this type of contest? Right. But let's remember, they are not third party characters. In a Nintendo All-Star game, they are perfectly able to join without needing to gauge their popularity. As I said yesterday, as far as I'm concerned, any Nintendo All-Star deserves to be in Smash more than a guest third party character. Because it's s "an all-star collection of Nintendo characters." For a third party character, it needs to be a "special situation." Which, unfortunately for Pac-Man, will not be because of his popularity.

Pac-Man is much less popular than Mega Man, Snake, and Sonic. They are leagues above him in terms of popularity. It's unfortunate, because he's such an iconic character. But the current third party characters we have or had in Brawl were popular on a grander scale in terms of the gaming community.

So, Pac-Man isn't really popular. I get that. Pac-Man isn't as popular as Sonic, Snake or Mega Man. I get that. Yet, do a very large amount of people SUPPORT him right now? Yep. And I'm agreeing with you about Lucas and Olimar. It's a Nintendo all-star game, wouldn't matter if they're as popular as Mario or Link, if they play important roles in Nintendo, we'd get 'em. So, Pac-Man "wouldn't" get in for common popularity or as a favor from Namco-Bandai. Yet, Pac-Man's surely iconic enough as a staple in Nintendo's games and has plenty of potential to work as a character that balances out his odds. If we followed the "Noble Nine" above, we'd end up seeing Cloud Strife, Sephiroth or Crono as a third-party. How many people exactly want that as much as Pac-Man?

People are nostalgic for the game, not the man. Unlike other strong third party smashers, Pac-Man's best days were when he had no arms or legs in his games. It's what everyone remembers him for. And we are talking about adding Pac-Man, the character to Smash. Not Pac-Man, the arcade game.

Stating that it's his "best days" is purely opinion, although it's one of his best days. The World series is still a underrated gem for it's time, and the desire for a new World game, proportionally compared by fanbase, is almost as big as the desire for a new Mega Man game (not cancelled) and a Sonic game based off his roots in a fully 2D environment (not including Colors, Generations and Lost World, as they have their 3D moments).

What happens when you take the man out Pac-Man? You get Ms. Pac-Man, which was a far better game that its predecessor.

Ms. Pac-Man improved on the Pac-Man formula, yet originally it was not a licensed Pac-Man game made by Namco, instead another company riding Pac-Man's coattails to riches without his permission. Of course Namco bought it, so don't argue with that. Again, this is an opinion. It'd be like stating Lucas should stay and Ness should be cut because Mother 3 had a better storyline than EarthBound.

You're a worthy opponent, Jaytalks. I've enjoyed my time debating with you, it's improved my usually flawed logic quite a bit by challenging me. So, I guess I should be thankful you're piling me with all this stuff. Whatever happens after tomorrow, may the best man win...

 

[jaytalks]

Yes, because GameFAQS gives us the most likeliest characters. Pac-Man's still a popular character, with Pac-Man World and other games having a large fanbase. The reason he isn't popular is most people on GameFAQs might not have played Pac-Man's other adventures, only his arcade title. It's like asking somebody if Donkey Kong is worthy of being in Super Smash Bros. before Donkey Kong Country hits the world. Although DKC's far more recognized than Pac-Man World, more people know Donkey Kong due to the arcade as well. Back then character's didn't really have fleshed out storylines or personalities, so you can't favorite a character without knowing a bit about him.

Using GameFAQs to cite popularity, not as a measure of likelihood.

And you act as if Pac-Man hasn't had a game in the last thirty years. By your count, hasn't Pac-Man appeared like 23 times on Nintendo Consoles alone? Here's a list of Pac-Man games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pac-Man_video_games
By my count, Pac-Man has had a game every three years since 1999. That's plenty of chances for people to get to know Pac-Man

Yes, Sonic, Snake and Rock all are more popular on a gaming website. It's expected Pac-Man wouldn't be in the top 10 due to my statement above about people being uneducated about his other games. Yet, you'd know that just because a character is "popular" doesn't mean they're not going to be in. If this is the logic, that more popular characters should get in, who exactly should they be, if you could choose? .

That Noble Nine I mentioned in the previous post? Crono from Chrono Trigger was a part of it, and he's hadnt had a new game since 1995, (1999/2000 if you include his non-playable appearance in Chrono Cross). Crono also has no lines in Chrono Trigger.

Again, popularity is important to third party characters. Sakurai cited popularity with Both Sonic and Pac-Man. I don't expect Shantae or Locke to be in the game for the same reason, (and a variety of other reasons)

So, Pac-Man isn't really popular. I get that. Pac-Man isn't as popular as Sonic, Snake or Mega Man. I get that. Yet, do a very large amount of people SUPPORT him right now? Yep. And I'm agreeing with you about Lucas and Olimar. It's a Nintendo all-star game, wouldn't matter if they're as popular as Mario or Link, if they play important roles in Nintendo, we'd get 'em. So, Pac-Man "wouldn't" get in for common popularity or as a favor from Namco-Bandai. Yet, Pac-Man's surely iconic enough as a staple in Nintendo's games and has plenty of potential to work as a character that balances out his odds. If we followed the "Noble Nine" above, we'd end up seeing Cloud Strife, Sephiroth or Crono as a third-party. How many people exactly want that as much as Pac-Man?

Again, I used the CB as a measure of popularity. Cloud, Sephiroth, and Crono probably won't get in for a variety of other reasons (namely the first two appearing mainly on a Sony console) and Crono hasn't had a game in 18 years (14 if you include Chrono Cross).

I used Gamefaqs because it's a widely known site to all gamers. It has much greater traffic than even Smashboards.

The purpose to show that Pac-Man lacked popularity in the greater gaming community in comparison to other third party smashers. Sakurai doesn't need to add any other third party characters, and popularity is one criteria Pac-Man lacks.

Stating that it's his "best days" is purely opinion, although it's one of his best days. The World series is still a underrated gem for it's time, and the desire for a new World game, proportionally compared by fanbase, is almost as big as the desire for a new Mega Man game (not cancelled) and a Sonic game based off his roots in a fully 2D environment (not including Colors, Generations and Lost World, as they have their 3D moments).

http://www.metacritic.com/search/all/pac-man/results?sort=score
Every game without the arcade mechanics gets below a 76.

It's an opinion, but there's plenty of data behind it.

A new Pac-Man World game doesn't compare to the demand for a new Mega Man game. Remember all the excitement behind the Mighty No. 9? It's because of connections to Mega Man stirred up by Keiji Inafune's designs, world, and involvement.

And for Sonic. Remember the excitement behind Sonic: Episode 4 (before it disappointed)?

Proportionally to the fanbase is the key word. Because the only reason proportionality matter more than volume is because the Pac-Man fanbase for his games is much smaller than these other 2 (and 3 including Snake).

Ms. Pac-Man improved on the Pac-Man formula, yet originally it was not a licensed Pac-Man game made by Namco, instead another company riding Pac-Man's coattails to riches without his permission. Of course Namco bought it, so don't argue with that. Again, this is an opinion. It'd be like stating Lucas should stay and Ness should be cut because Mother 3 had a better storyline than EarthBound.

That was just a rhetorical beat. Don't take it too seriously. It's a play off of man, character, Pac-Man, and Ms. Pac-Man etc.

Edit: Oh and I forgot:
Here's a brawl era poll from the Nintendo Wiki with 604 respondents.
http://nintendo.wikia.com/wiki/Nintendo:Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl_Poll
Pac-Man is behind Ray-Man and Bomber-Man (who was still Hudson at the time). And way behind Mega Man. So is among the fanbase of Nintendo fans, removed from the concept of Namco (now Namco- Bandai) being a co-developer.

Appreciate the kind words. I hope the best team gets the kill screen.

 

[APC99]

Using GameFAQs to cite popularity, not as a measure of likelihood.

And you act as if Pac-Man hasn't had a game in the last thirty years. By your count, hasn't Pac-Man appeared like 23 times on Nintendo Consoles alone? Here's a list of Pac-Man games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pac-Man_video_games
By my count, Pac-Man has had a game every three years since 1999. That's plenty of chances for people to get to know Pac-Man.

My main problem with this is that although people know there are indeed more Pac-Man games, they don't play them, mainly because of the fact that they think it's just the same thing over and over again. Yes, Pac-Man's had 23 games, and although he's popular, a lot of gamers unfamiliar with Pac-Man will assume they're all the same thing and leave.

That Noble Nine I mentioned in the previous post? Crono from Chrono Trigger was a part of it, and he's hadnt had a new game since 1995, (1999/2000 if you include his non-playable appearance in Chrono Cross). Crono also has no lines in Chrono Trigger.

Again, popularity is important to third party characters. Sakurai cited popularity with Both Sonic and Pac-Man. I don't expect Shantae or Locke to be in the game for the same reason, (and a variety of other reasons).

I'd personally love Crono or Shantae. Not the point, though. Popularity is indeed one place where Pac lacks. Square's characters may be more memorable, but I think that in general, if the test was put for preference in the game, we'd see him rise over the others.

Again, I used the CB as a measure of popularity. Cloud, Sephiroth, and Crono probably won't get in for a variety of other reasons (namely the first two appearing mainly on a Sony console) and Crono hasn't had a game in 18 years (14 if you include Chrono Cross).

I used Gamefaqs because it's a widely known site to all gamers. It has much greater traffic than even Smashboards.

The purpose to show that Pac-Man lacked popularity in the greater gaming community in comparison to other third party smashers. Sakurai doesn't need to add any other third party characters, and popularity is one criteria Pac-Man lacks.

Again, Pac-Man's got everything down except popularity. Sakurai's unpredictable. If Sakurai were to poll again w/o including Mega Man, we'd probably see Pac-Man hit the top, for reasons other than popularity.

http://www.metacritic.com/search/all/pac-man/results?sort=score
Every game without the arcade mechanics gets below a 76.

It's an opinion, but there's plenty of data behind it.

A new Pac-Man World game doesn't compare to the demand for a new Mega Man game. Remember all the excitement behind the Mighty No. 9? It's because of connections to Mega Man stirred up by Keiji Inafune's designs, world, and involvement.

And for Sonic. Remember the excitement behind Sonic: Episode 4 (before it disappointed)?

Proportionally to the fanbase is the key word. Because the only reason proportionality matter more than volume is because the Pac-Man fanbase for his games is much smaller than these other 2 (and 3 including Snake).

Maybe I over exaggerated. The point is, however, there is demand for a new Pac-Man World 4. Mega Man and Sonic have a larger fanbase in general, which relates to their larger demand. Yet, compared proportionally to Pac-Man's fanbase, the demand is almost equal.

That was just a rhetorical beat. Don't take it too seriously. It's a play off of man, character, Pac-Man, and Ms. Pac-Man etc.

Oh and forgot:
Here's a brawl era poll from the Nintendo Wiki with 604 respondents.
http://nintendo.wikia.com/wiki/Nintendo:Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl_Poll
Pac-Man is behind Ray-Man and Bomber-Man (who was still Hudson at the time). And way behind Mega Man. So is among the fanbase of Nintendo fans, removed from the concept of Namco (now Namco- Bandai) being a co-developer.

Appreciate the kind words. I hope the best team gets the kill screen.

Yeah, I got it, I'm just tired and felt to elaborate. Rayman has a chance, honestly, but I'm not sure about Bomberman now (as you've stated.) Pac-Man still has a good chance, though, just not as large as Snake's chances, or the chances Sonic and Mega Man had.

 

[jaytalks]

My main problem with this is that although people know there are indeed more Pac-Man games, they don't play them, mainly because of the fact that they think it's just the same thing over and over again. Yes, Pac-Man's had 23 games, and although he's popular, a lot of gamers unfamiliar with Pac-Man will assume they're all the same thing and leave.

Most gamers and the public in general are familiar with Pac-Man. In the same way most of the public are aware of Mario.

That's struggle with every character. Why won't people play my games? Make better games is the answer. That's what they've done with Sonic, if Lost World's Famitsu rating is any education. Although Namco has more to do with this than Pac-Man the character himself, virtually every character went through this struggle, especially the classic ones. The first Mega Man game didn't exactly set the NES fanbase on fire. But Capcom stuck with it and we got Mega Man 2.

Popularity is on some level connected to game quality, and Pac-Man just hasn't the same quality with his games than the other three smash brethren. Other than Pac-Man championship edition of course. (See Metacritic again). Pac-Man has had the same opportunity as Mega Man, Sonic, and Snake to get people to play his games. So there really isn't excuse. The point is that he just isn't that popular of a third party character.

I'd personally love Crono or Shantae. Not the point, though. Popularity is indeed one place where Pac lacks. Square's characters may be more memorable, but I think that in general, if the test was put for preference in the game, we'd see him rise over the others.

Pac-Man isn't facing off against other third party characters. It's about the worthiness in Pac-Man himself. Sakurai doesn't need to add any more third party characters.

Again, Pac-Man's got everything down except popularity. Sakurai's unpredictable. If Sakurai were to poll again w/o including Mega Man, we'd probably see Pac-Man hit the top, for reasons other than popularity.

Can't be proven and I still doubt. From the way the poll was conducted last time, they still would include popular but unlikely characters, like Simon Belmont, Geno, etc. Here is the characters that were highly requested in the poll last time around:

Spoiler

King Dedede(5) - CONFIRMED!
Diddy Kong(4) - CONFIRMED!
Geno(4)
Ike(4) - CONFIRMED!
Ridley(4)
Captain Olimar & Pikmin(3)
Krystal(3)
Takamaru(3)
Windwaker Link(3)
Animal Crossing MC(2)
Claus(2)
Demiru(2)
Isaac(2)
Jeff(2)
Kawasima(2)
King K.Rool(2)
Lip(2)
Lucas(2) - CONFIRMED!
Mega Man(2)
Oguma(2)
Ouendan(2)
Sukapon(2)
Source: http://nsider2.com/forums/index.php/topic/95385-characters-on-sakurais-poll/

Sorry, no Pac-Man.

Maybe I over exaggerated. The point is, however, there is demand for a new Pac-Man World 4. Mega Man and Sonic have a larger fanbase in general, which relates to their larger demand. Yet, compared proportionally to Pac-Man's fanbase, the demand is almost equal.

The fanbase size is the point of talking about that demand.

Yeah, I got it, I'm just tired and felt to elaborate. Rayman has a chance, honestly, but I'm not sure about Bomberman now (as you've stated.) Pac-Man still has a good chance, though, just not as large as Snake's chances, or the chances Sonic and Mega Man had.

Poll demonstrates Pac-Man wasn't the third most wanted, even in the Brawl days. That's the point. Left off popular submissions such as Geno.

The fact is Sakurai doesn't have to add any more third party characters, and Pac-Man's lack of popular (as well as the previous two days previous worth of points) are reasons not to add the Namco mascot.

 

[Kapus]

I must applaud Jaytalks for breaking down Pac-Man's issues into such detail. I don't think I have read a single point he made that I did not agree with.

I personally find the most important point being that Namco isn't getting any special treatment. Imagine that Namco isn't working on this game and has absolutely nothing to do with it. Would Pac-Man be in the game? Would anyone be asking for Pac-Man to be in the game? Should Pac-Man be in the game? That's basically what the situation is, and it's something to keep in mind here.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

Wow folks, looks like Jay is coming out of this round as the fan favorite! Let's see if he can keep this momentum going innnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Round 5! Closing Statements!

Use this round to summarize your argument and to touch on any points you feel may have gotten short. Also, now is the time to bring up points that you maybe couldn't fit under any of the other more specific topics!

 

[jaytalks]

In closing, this debate wasn't really about whether Pac-Man was an iconic video game character or not. Nor was about the immense impact Pac-Man has had on the entirety of Video Game History. Not a single person on Team Anti Pac-Man doubts those two facts. The point of this debate was to answer the question: should Pac-Man be in the game? And I ask again: Would we even be asking this question with the same amount of demand and urgency if Namco-Bandai wasn't co-developing the game?

The answer is no. Prior data suggests that there was less discussion and demand for the character in Brawl, when Namo-Bandai wasn't involved in development. Sakurai has stated that their co-development gives them no special consideration for their characters. This statement was very different to his response to a Capcom character and a first party Nintendo character. Additionally, in terms of making the best games and gameplay, Pac-Man succeeds most when he is in his armless and legless ball form (which can be seen through the metacritic data).

Virtually any Nintendo All-Star merits being in the game over any third party character, because the game is a battle royale between Nintendo All-Stars. So that means that characters not currently in the game from returning franchises (Palutena, Ridley, King K. Rool, Baron K. Roolenstein, Kaptain K. Rool. etc) and any all-star newcomer from a currently unrepresented franchise (Andy, Saki, Isaac, Little Mac, Ray Mk II, etc) merit inclusion over any third party character. These first party characters also have a great deal to offer in terms of differing battle styles and attacks present within their core series appearances. Remember, Sakurai has suggested we will receive less characters with this iteration of Smash. There is no pressing needing for another third party character, especially when there is insufficient demand.

Pac-Man differs from his potential third party smashers in many different ways. The main difference being that the current third party characters to make it into Smash (Snake, Sonic, and Mega Man) are all popular characters, both within the Nintendo community and the larger gaming public (as seen with the GF Character Battles). Pac-Man unfortunately just isn't as popular as these characters, This could be because many people havent played his games, but that is doubtful considering the amount of games he had (over 30 games!!!) and the variety of system's they have been on.Although you can also factor in Pac-Man lack of a personality, but that flies in the face of how we traditionally have connected with video game character over the last three decades (i.e. the silent protagonist). Link has been a silent protagonist in every incarnation, and might be the most popular video game character in the world (at GF, its the LAW). Pac-Man lacks the demand and popularity that was cited in both Sonic and Mega-Man's initial reveals, (and the popularity you can see Snake has). Considering what we know about the results of pre-brawl poll last time, it is doubtful that Pac-Man would perform significantly better.

This debate is not about my personal feelings towards Pac-Man or his potential inclusion. It's about give what Sakurai has said, should/will Pac-Man be in SSB4. I think he's a great character. I remember when I was a little kid, playing Ms. Pac-Man at the laundry mat, wasting all my quarters to just get to that one scene where Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man, and the heart appears (because we all know what that means). But my personal nostalgia (or any gamer's) doesn't mean he should be in Smash. He wasn't expected or in high demand before we learned about Namco-Bandai's co-development, and Namco-Bancai's mascot should not get any special treatment.

 

[APC99]

In closing, this debate wasn't really about whether Pac-Man was an iconic video game character or not. Nor was about the immense impact Pac-Man has had on the entirety of Video Game History. Not a single person on Team Anti Pac-Man doubts those two facts. The point of this debate was to answer the question: should Pac-Man be in the game? And I ask again: Would we even be asking this question with the same amount of demand and urgency if Namco-Bandai wasn't co-developing the game?

The answer is no. Prior data suggests that there was less discussion and demand for the character in Brawl, when Namo-Bandai wasn't involved in development. Sakurai has stated that their co-development gives them no special consideration for their characters. This statement was very different to his response to a Capcom character and a first party Nintendo character. Additionally, in terms of making the best games and gameplay, Pac-Man succeeds most when he is in his armless and legless ball form (which can be seen through the metacritic data).

Virtually any Nintendo All-Star merits being in the game over any third party character, because the game is a battle royale between Nintendo All-Stars. So that means that characters not currently in the game from returning franchises (Palutena, Ridley, King K. Rool, Baron K. Roolenstein, Kaptain K. Rool. etc) and any all-star newcomer from a currently unrepresented franchise (Andy, Saki, Isaac, Little Mac, Ray Mk II, etc) merit inclusion over any third party character. These first party characters also have a great deal to offer in terms of differing battle styles and attacks present within their core series appearances. Remember, Sakurai has suggested we will receive less characters with this iteration of Smash. There is no pressing needing for another third party character, especially when there is insufficient demand.

Pac-Man differs from his potential third party smashers in many different ways. The main difference being that the current third party characters to make it into Smash (Snake, Sonic, and Mega Man) are all popular characters, both within the Nintendo community and the larger gaming public (as seen with the GF Character Battles). Pac-Man unfortunately just isn't as popular as these characters, This could be because many people havent played his games, but that is doubtful considering the amount of games he had (over 30 games!!!) and the variety of system's they have been on.Although you can also factor in Pac-Man lack of a personality, but that flies in the face of how we traditionally have connected with video game character over the last three decades (i.e. the silent protagonist). Link has been a silent protagonist in every incarnation, and might be the most popular video game character in the world (at GF, its the LAW). Pac-Man lacks the demand and popularity that was cited in both Sonic and Mega-Man's initial reveals, (and the popularity you can see Snake has). Considering what we know about the results of pre-brawl poll last time, it is doubtful that Pac-Man would perform significantly better.

This debate is not about my personal feelings towards Pac-Man or his potential inclusion. It's about give what Sakurai has said, should/will Pac-Man be in SSB4. I think he's a great character. I remember when I was a little kid, playing Ms. Pac-Man at the laundry mat, wasting all my quarters to just get to that one scene where Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man, and the heart appears (because we all know what that means). But my personal nostalgia (or any gamer's) doesn't mean he should be in Smash. He wasn't expected or in high demand before we learned about Namco-Bandai's co-development, and Namco-Bancai's mascot should not get any special treatment.

Pac-Man, undoubtedly, if a fourth third-party would rise, is the obvious choice. Although he wasn't too popular pre-Brawl, Pac-Man has a large fanbase currently, due to the hype of Namco-Bandai co-developing. Sakurai has confirmed there's no "special treatment for Namco", yet he seemed rather intrigued in an interview when the reporter talked about Pac-Man. Pac-Man may lack popularity, but his nostalgia factor, moveset capability and ability to fit in Smash are uncanny. Many oppose Pac-Man, yet no supporter gives up. Pac-Man's array of games, connections to Nintendo and even his ties with Namco's rich history means he has the potential to be a unique character that is worthy of a spot.

I'm tired now, so I can't elaborate as much as I'd like.

Team Anti-Pac-Man has given good points, as have we, and I'm glad to have been a member of this team. Thank you, Jaytalks, Venus of the Desert Bloom, the announcers, Zzuxon, ThatWasPeachy and ScatmansWorld25 for a great debate.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I apologize to everyone but I was unable to close the debates. Therefore, ill be closing them now. The staff and I will be counting up the likes and reviewing the debate and will post up our findings in the next few days.

As well, the staff members and were talking and feel we should redo the Debate thread with a different format. More information will be coming soon!

 

[Johnknight1]

Wow... the format was actually pretty nice (could use some fine tuning, like all things), and these debates were pretty freaking great.

Like, the last two rounds were amazing. Like wow.

I'm thoroughly impressed.

In a Smash Boards age where debates seem to get dumber instead of more intuitive, this one proved to break from the norm, and excelled into something meaningful.

This was flat out wonderful.

You started out all guns blazing, you backed up your position with well thought out information, data, and very resourceful polling of opinions, you merged those two together, and you made clear and well thought out conclusions. That was outstanding/

Thank you competitors for proving my doubts and any doubts anyone else had wrong about this competition. You did a fantastic job. A far better job than I ever thought would be done in this thread or DebateMania. You guys really followed Swampasaur's example in his route in DebateMania I to make for some fantastic reading.

Seriously... if it isn't, after this debate, this thread needs to be stickied just based on the two teams' performance here alone.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

I'd like to remind everyone that you guys are more than welcome to submit ideas for improvement. Like Venus noted a few times, this was a beta test and we are aware that there were still a few kinks. You can leave your feedback here like John did or through PM like a few other users.

 

[LoneKonWolf]

nothing really else to say about this debate that john hasn't already said.
but seriously this debate basically ended any doubts there was and probably ended in great success.
can't wait for the next one
P.S. is there any way that this thread can get sticky, its a little hard to find at times

 

[FlareHabanero]

P.S. is there any way that this thread can get sticky, its a little hard to find at times

Ask a mod.

 

[Conviction]

Ask a mod.

Two mods help us run this.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Hey everyone.

I'm so sorry for the late results. The staff members have been very busy with school and work. I've been putting in 13 hour days this entire week which have left me drained. Ill try getting to the results and the next session. Again, I'm sorry for the delay.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Hey everyone.

I'm so sorry for the late results. The staff members have been very busy with school and work. I've been putting in 13 hour days this entire week which have left me drained. Ill try getting to the results and the next session. Again, I'm sorry for the delay.

Take your time, don't tire yourself out so much and focus on school and work as of now. We can wait. Just make sure to spend some time for yourselves too.

 

[LoneKonWolf]

Hey everyone.

I'm so sorry for the late results. The staff members have been very busy with school and work. I've been putting in 13 hour days this entire week which have left me drained. Ill try getting to the results and the next session. Again, I'm sorry for the delay.

ah don't worry and tire yourself out mate,
focas on what you need to do first, then worry about the rest, we all can wait

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I would love to see a Chrom debate.

 

[Opossum]

I would love to see a Chrom debate.

I'd definitely want in on that as one of the debaters, haha.

 

[LoneKonWolf]

that is if saying this thread gets revived that is

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'd be up for arguing against Chrom.

Thing is... I would only argue that there are better additions than him. I won't argue that Chrom is a bad addition.

 

[APC99]

Grades are taking a while...

Not rushing you guys, but I'm pretty anxious...

 

[FlareHabanero]

Something tells me the Chrom debate is just going to be people running around like chickens without heads. But considering that everyone knows that jaytalks is going to defend the hell out of the character (though not nearly as much as Lucina), I don't know we might get something interesting. One thing for sure is that I would be interested in this kind of debate, because I do have comments to say.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Intially I wanted Krystal to be next. Though a Chrom debate could be interesting. I'm up for either of those two.

 

[---]

Kinda wish I had seen this thread sooner. Seeing as it's headed by some of the cool users in the BR social group, I sense this thread has potential.

I may want to throw my head in the ring at some point, it's been forever since I've actively debated.

7. Please back up statements with credible sources.

Pretty sure I'm good in that department.

 

[Zhadgon]

I hope we can start the next round soon, is pretty fun and interesting this type of threads.
.n_n.

 

[jaytalks]

Something tells me the Chrom debate is just going to be people running around like chickens without heads. But considering that everyone knows that jaytalks is going to defend the hell out of the character (though not nearly as much as Lucina), I don't know we might get something interesting. One thing for sure is that I would be interested in this kind of debate, because I do have comments to say.

Thanks for the shoutout! I was planning on sitting this next one out though. I talked enough in this most recent debate.

And I defend the character not because I actually want the character, but the argument's I've seen just arent that good. But maybe this debate will turn that up a notch. We will have to wait and see.

 

[Zzuxon]

I voted for Krystal. Not because I like her, but because I HATE HER and wanted to rip her to shreds.
I'll probably just spectate on the Chrom debate, I have no strong feelings on the character.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So have you finished your findings for the Pac-Man debate yet?

 

[SuperBrawler]

I guess this thing is dead.

 

[LoneKonWolf]

dam, I was looking forward to some more debates

 

[APC99]

Not to beat a dead horse, but...

Who won? Pro-Pac or Anti-Pac?