The Gimp List (Yes, I'm updating it)

[???????]

I propose a "Gimp List", a list that would specifically list Mario's gimping ability against certain character's recoveries. This list would be formatted from "Hardest to gimp" to "Easiest to gimp", from top to bottom. I would be the organizer of this list but the actual placement of characters would be decided intelligent discussion and debate. By default I would list my own opinions and reasoning but not over the opinions of others; I would only be listing my opinions if no one else voices theirs. Overall, this list’s format would mirror the tier list’s to minimize confusion.

*Please feel free to voice your opinions*


Hard:

Kirby–His midair jumps are fairly difficult to disrupt and he has a good aerial defense with his Inhale, Stone, Hammer, and adaptive aerial game.

R.O.B.–Recovery is very hard to gimp and he is protected for the most part against aerials with his Robo Beam and Gyro.


Mid:


Easy:

Bowser–His recovery can be gimped by F.L.U.D.D., can be caped, and his only real defenses against aerials are his Flying Slam and Fire Breath (Even these only somewhat protect him and are fairly easy to avoid).

Captain Falcon–His recovery can be gimped by F.L.U.D.D., can be caped, and has virtually no true aerial defense (He can however improve his recovery at times with his Falcon Kick).

Falco–His recovery can be gimped by F.L.U.D.D., can be caped, and his recovery in general is fairly short.

Fox–His recovery can be gimped by F.L.U.D.D., can be caped, and his only true means of defense is stalling with his reflector for mindgames.

Ganondorf–His recovery can be gimped by F.L.U.D.D., can be caped, and has virtually no true aerial defense other than a possible Ganoncide (He can however improve his recovery at times with his Wizard's Foot).

Ivysaur–His recovery is highly disrupted by both the F.L.U.D.D. and cape, his recovery is entirely tether-based making him highly easy to gimp in general, and his only practical means of defense is his Razor Leaf which can be both reflected and deflected by the F.L.U.D.D. and the cape (Ignore gender assumption).

Ness–His recovery can be gimped by F.L.U.D.D., can be caped, easily intercepted in general with few practical defensive aerial options (His defense consists of possible aerials at close range, some mind games with his PK Thunder, and his PK Fire all of which are highly easy to avoid, intercept, and negate).

Olimar–His recovery is highly disrupted by both the F.L.U.D.D. and cape, his recovery is entirely tether-based making him highly easy to gimp in general, and his only practical means of defense is his Pikmin Throw which can be both reflected and deflected by the F.L.U.D.D. and the cape.


Gimping Strategies:

Superman Combo–Use F.L.U.D.D. to slow down and stop your opponent’s momentum and then use the cape to reverse them and any leftover momentum (Can possibly reverse DI as well if your opponent is ill-prepared); there are some variations of this technique but all applications are virtually the same. This technique is often considered a staple in Mario's edgeguarding game.


Videos (They show some gimping strategies but they also may be full matches):

Boss using Mario's aerials to combo Ch0zen0ne's R.O.B. and force him to use up his fuel for R.O.B.'s Robo Burner (0:24-0:37)–http://youtube.com/watch?v=U58VuGs-AA8&feature=related

 

[Judge Judy]

Sounds kind of like a cool idea.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Are we allowed to start or are we waiting for a professional who mains Mario to voice their opinions first?

 

[???????]

You can start whenever you like, I'm always here...somewhere...

 

[smashbro29]

Well to kick it off bowser's fairly easy to gimp

 

[???????]

Yes, I'd say Bowser is easy: His recovery can be gimped by F.L.U.D.D., can be caped, and his only real defenses against aerials are his Flying Slam and Fire Breath (Even these only somewhat protect him and are farily easy to avoid).

 

[SpitFire15]

Ike and the Earthbounders are pretty easy to gimp.

 

[???????]

Yes, Lucas, Ness, and Ike are easy to gimp.

Lucas: Double jump is easy to disrupt as is his PK Thunder (Few defenses against aerials other than his PK Fire).

Ness: Same as Lucas but his PK Thunder is faster.

Ike: Double jump is short and both his recovery moves are farily easy to gimp with the F.L.U.D.D. and the cape.

 

[Veggi]

Space animals, I heard Zelda and Shiek could be easily gimped by cape. The tether recoveries are easy to gimp, but that stays true for everyone, with the hardest tether to gimp being ZSS. That's all I have to add.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'd say that Ike, Olimar, Link, Ganondorf, other Marios, and Captain Falcon are the easiest to gimp. Cape, FLUDD, or bair to the face, take your pick.

 

[???????]

Fox (Easy): F.L.U.D.D., cape, and aerials all work on his recovery (He can however stall with his reflector for mindgames).

Falco (Easy): Same as Fox but an even shorter recovery. (Cannot stall)

Wolf (Easy): Same as Fox. (Cannot stall)

Olimar (Easy): Only chance he has is his Pikmin Throw which is deflected by the cape and is stopped by the F.L.U.D.D.

Ivysaur (Easy): Same as Olimar but an even shorter recovery.

Zero Suit Samus (Easy): Same as Olimar but she can also use her Dair to sometimes help boost her recovery.

Zelda (Easy to Mid): Easily gimped by the cape but she still has many options to mindgame along with a long recovery.

Sheik (Easy to mid): Fairly the same type of recovery as Zelda but her Dair can sometimes be used to help boost her recovery and she has an alternative tether recovery option open.

Mario (Mid): The only character who can truly reflect the F.L.U.D.D. and Mario can be farily agressive during his recovery; cape stalling can be difficult to get around, and the F.L.U.D.D. and fireballs protect him against aerials. Mario's Up B is farily easy to gimp though.

Ganondorf: F.L.U.D.D., cape, and aerials all work on his recovery.

Captain Falcon: Same as Ganondorf but has a slightly better recovery.

 

[Matador]

Easy- Bowser, CF, Diddy, DK, Ganon, Ike, Ivy, ddd, Link, Lucas, Luigi, Marth, Ness, Olimar, TL, Wolf, Yoshi

Mid- Charizard, Falco, Fox, ICs, Kirby, Mario, Peach, Pika, Pit, ROB, Samus, Shiek, Squirtle, Wario, Zelda, ZSS

Hard- G&W, Jiggs, Lucario, MK, Snake, Sonic

 

[Help!]

Fair snakes up b isn't too bad if you can get him to set up for the position plus if he's too low you can always do the grab manuever.

Lucario is slow and can easily be edgehogged. don't even think you have to do anything else,

Pits hard cause multi jump incredible up b and glide attacks and stuff. You get punished hard if you miss

ROB is hard cause of his Up B is ridiculous but i heard theres a lot of tricks mario can do I think, but ive seen some tricks and its still hard to keep him off.

Zelda might be capable, but **** she can do it from far away.

Diddy isn't the easiest character to keep off the edge, but does have his disadvantages so i'd say medium

Link would probably be a medium

DDD is a medium cause you can predict his up b but still has multiple jump and range

Luigi has a lot of recovery tactics that keep him from being edge gaurded will

Toon link has a lot going for him i'd at elast medium for him too.

Falco and fox would probably be the easier of people to do stuff about. Since Falco has a crappy recovery and fox is super light and can get launched pretty far easily so you can set up for capes and stuff.

Thats my opinion based off of matodors list

 

[BoTastic!]

Peach is mid perhaps. Her horizontal recovery makes her a sitting duck for Fair

Link is extremly easy to gimp. Both Fludd and cape and even Fair works effeciantly on him.

 

[Matador]

Fair snakes up b isn't too bad if you can get him to set up for the position plus if he's too low you can always do the grab manuever.

Lucario is slow and can easily be edgehogged. don't even think you have to do anything else,

Pits hard cause multi jump incredible up b and glide attacks and stuff. You get punished hard if you miss

ROB is hard cause of his Up B is ridiculous but i heard theres a lot of tricks mario can do I think, but ive seen some tricks and its still hard to keep him off.

Zelda might be capable, but **** she can do it from far away.

Diddy isn't the easiest character to keep off the edge, but does have his disadvantages so i'd say medium

Link would probably be a medium

DDD is a medium cause you can predict his up b but still has multiple jump and range

Luigi has a lot of recovery tactics that keep him from being edge gaurded will

Toon link has a lot going for him i'd at elast medium for him too.

Falco and fox would probably be the easier of people to do stuff about. Since Falco has a crappy recovery and fox is super light and can get launched pretty far easily so you can set up for capes and stuff.

Thats my opinion based off of matodors list

Snake- A good snake won't let you get close enough to meteor without letting go of the cypher. Missing can be dangerous because of his Usmash edgeguard.

Lucario- DI with his Up B can be tricky. He could aim for a wall, over the edge, or directly for the edge. Not correctly predicting his intentions could leave you open for a dair.

Pit- Well placed fireballs are really bad for his recovery. Fludd ruins gliding, and cape kills momentum toward the stage. He's barely mid.

ROB- Cape kills his up B. Continuous caping till he's out of gas is much easier than it seems because his recovery is so predictable.

Zelda- Her recovery is too predictable and too easy to Fludd/cape/edgehog. The fact that her up B does damage is the only think keeping her from easy.

Diddy- Fireballs, caping, and edgehogging are bad for his recovery. Caping especially because caping while he's still charging turns him around before taking off.

Link- By far the easiest to edgeguard. His upB is vulnerable to Fludd -> Cape. He usually doesn't make it back to the stage anyway.

ddd- Perhaps he should be mid because of his multiple jumps, but Fludd and cape are too easy to attack his upB because of how slow and predictable the trajectory is.

Luigi- This one took some thought. Luigi's side B's distance can be reduced to nothing by a fully charged fludd, or turned around by the cape. His tornado's horizontal distance can also be easily stopped by a fully charged Fludd. Edgehogging or caping his upB is also incredibly easy, and shouldn't be needed if you've been edgeguarding correctly till this point. All of his recovery moves are very slow and very predictable, which is why he's easy.

TL- Probably mid because of the height of his jumps, but his upB is still very easy to cape -> Fludd.

Falco/Fox- Both easy to fludd, but not very easy to gimp. Fludding their illusions is simple, but caping is only possible if they tried to illusion from far enough away from the edge and weren't going for a sweetspot, which rarely happens. Caping their illusions from the start requires much precision or risk getting hit yourself. Fludding their up B doesn't do much and caping is difficult unless you're directly in front of them which, in turn, could end up gimping you instead. Probably still an easy edgeguard because they're both painfully predictable.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

I'll voice my opinion on this later...right now I just don't feel like doing anything

 

[???????]

I think Link could be mid since he has a bomb recovery option and a tether recovery options, but his recovery still seems easy to gimp (Same for Toon Link but his tether recovery is much shorter).

*I'm gradually updating things so don't panic if you don't immediately see a character on the list*

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

Link is easy to gimp...his recovery is garbage

He can't bomb jump(unless he holds his bomb thill it explodes)
His tether is Garbage I have seen him miss the edge when he was about a body length away
His up-B is garbage....if he has no momentum towards the level he's not making it back

if we cover the characters one at a time I'll be able to point out where they should be

 

[???????]

Sounds good and you have good points.

 

[Leifio]

i think you forgot meta knight and kirby? id say hard........ multiple jumps

 

[???????]

Kirby is hard but Meta Knight ranges between mid and hard; Meta Knight's jumps are easily disrupted by the F.L.U.D.D., he has few offensive options while recovering, and most of his recovery options can be caped (Meta Knight has a powerful recovery but Mario can pick it apart fairly well).

 

[Shadigi]

This is pretty cool...

 

[Kanzaki]

I think Link's the only character I've successfully 'Money Shot' multiple times at low percentages.

 

[???????]

I've done it to Zero Suit Samus.

 

[???????]

Perhaps we should try to document gimping strategies as well, any suggestions?

 

[BoTastic!]

yes that will be nice

 

[???????]

To start off, do you think F.L.U.D.D. to Cape Glide is more effective or Cape Glide to F.L.U.D.D.?

 

[Judge Judy]

I think MK's recovery is better than Pit's but I find that I have a lot easier time gimping MK than Pit. MK definitely has a better recovery but I just have an easier time gimping MK.

 

[BoTastic!]

To start off, do you think F.L.U.D.D. to Cape Glide is more effective or Cape Glide to F.L.U.D.D.?

Fludd to cape Glide

 

[???????]

I thought so, just wasn't sure.

 

[Matador]

Kirby is hard but Meta Knight ranges between mid and hard; Meta Knight's jumps are easily disrupted by the F.L.U.D.D., he has few offensive options while recovering, and most of his recovery options can be caped (Meta Knight has a powerful recovery but Mario can pick it apart fairly well).

Kirby is easy to gimp as long as you have good timing on his upB. Edgehog -> Cape pwns Kirby somethin serious. MK is a different story, his recovery consists of many different options, which can be hazardous to cape. Shuttleloop can be sweetspotted, and attacked out of, so it's much more difficult to gimp a good MK. Also, if they decide to Tornado onto the stage and you're setting up for a fludd or cape, you're screwed. The only way around MK's tornado for Mario is anticipating it before it comes and reacting accordingly. Trying to gimp leaves you way too open for it.

 

[???????]

At the same, his low horizontal air movement also makes him a fairly easy target.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Dedede's Up-B is easily caped, and even if the King cancels, he can be punished. I learned this earlier this week when I placed 2nd in a team tournament (my 1st team tourny

Me (King Dedede), my teammate (Marth/Ike) vs a Mario and Samus. The Mario was very beastly. He moved like a Luigi, and caped me to hell. They were good games. Our team almost got first place too, but 2nd is good for a 1st time try.

 

[???????]

Based on your description, it sounds like you underestimated your opponents.

*King DeDeDe ranges from easy to mid as far as the "Gimp List"*

 

[Matador]

At the same, his low horizontal air movement also makes him a fairly easy target.

He's still never defenseless in the air, and can always protect from Mario's edgeguarding. Your only opportunity to gimp a good MK is creating one with the Fludd during shuttleloop.

Edit: Agreed, ddd's relatively easy to gimp.

 

[???????]

Yes, but that would be an exact reason to place Meta Knight in mid; having a formulaic strategy to deal with a character's recovery is an important aspect to consider.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Based on your description, it sounds like you underestimated your opponents.

*King Dedede ranges from easy to mid as far as the "Gimp List"*

Calling somebody's character beastly has nothing to do with underestimating them (in the sense that I'm talking about). I just know that the person I played was one of the better people who comes to our tournaments.

Your range is pretty accurate though. Dedede has multiple jumps before he is forced to Up-B against an enemy Mario, so that would hopefully help him enough.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falcon and Gdorf do not regain double jump from Down-B.

 

[Matador]

Calling somebody's character beastly has nothing to do with underestimating them (in the sense that I'm talking about). I just know that the person I played was one of the better people who comes to our tournaments.

Your range is pretty accurate though. Dedede has multiple jumps before he is forced to Up-B against an enemy Mario, so that would hopefully help him enough.

Multiple jumps doesn't save anyone. Mario could just as easily cape the jumps and turn his opponent's momentum in the opposite direction and possibly set up for a Fair spike.

 

[???????]

Calling somebody's character beastly has nothing to do with underestimating them (in the sense that I'm talking about). I just know that the person I played was one of the better people who comes to our tournaments.

Your range is pretty accurate though. Dedede has multiple jumps before he is forced to Up-B against an enemy Mario, so that would hopefully help him enough.

It was your tone that leads me to believe you underestimated your opponent, not your wording specifically. But I do apologize; I apologize if anything that I have said is seen as offensive.

*Matador virtually covered the most important points in your post*

*I apologize if anything that I have said is seen as offensive*