Social The Ganonic Grimoire - Kongregation of Kings

[A2ZOMG]

Ike's still gonna be pretty bad in my estimation, but you're right, the customs are an improvement. That said, Ike's no-swing side-b and ganons no-grab side-b seem to be almost identical in function, movement, etc. So I'm not sure how you managed to come to different conclusions on their future use, but I'm interested in seeing how well they both work to say the least.

Ike's SideB is able to go twice as far and is considerably faster. That's why his passthrough version is actually really scary.

 

[Hydde]

I don't know if it's another voice actor, but those grunts sound way deeper than his regular voice.

I hate all his post melee voices anyways. IN brawl and in smash4 he sounds like an old geezer moaning. I liked his badass deep voice in melee.

About his moves...i dont like his multihiting darkchoke. Seems very unsafe on spot dodge and is not even good to poke shields.

In the upB department...i REALLY like the shockwive dark dive....looks so ****ing badass.... but like someone said.. i fear ill end using the 3rd upB because it has has GODLIKE vertical distance for a man like Ganon who is known for crappy recoveries post melee.

Walock kick?. Definitely the blue one which goes vertically and diagonal (second downB). I like it because that move in combination with the 3rd UpB will let Ganon return from a lot of places and make him much less gimpeable.

Warloch punch?.Its a tough call. I have always hated the slowness of the falcon/warlock punch..... so im literally in love with Gnaon´s new and quick SHotgunpunch....... BUT.... i have to admit that the Warlock sword has INSANE range and will get a lot of peeps by surprise when used. Its a very tough call.

 

[Heartstring]

Ike's SideB is able to go twice as far and is considerably faster. That's why his passthrough version is actually really scary.

For the sake of keeping it simple, gonna be referring to these moves as a psycho crusher/PC, as that's mechanically what they are.

It's faster moving thats for sure, but from watching the videos you can see that (uncharged, which is all that matters in this application) Ike's PC moves considerably less distance than Ganons PC. With Ike's going roughly 1/4 of the stage and Ganon's about 1/2.

There's a whole plethora of different mechanics and pros/cons I can pull from the videos, but I think in the long run both PCs are going to be really good for both characters to an almost equal level.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can defend against both Ganon and Ike sideB on reaction. The fact Ike can charge his to prevent you from knowing EXACTLY when he will charge not to mention the fact he gains extra distance on it are both MASSIVE advantages that make his Side-B CONSIDERABLY safer and more effective.

It's not even a contest. Ike's SideB by virtue of being chargable is MUCH more useful. It actually gives him greater control over his opponent's options, while Ganon's Side-B only is really strong as a punish.

 

[Loachy]

Am i the only one bothered by his voice change when he gets hit? I don't know if it's another voice actor, but those grunts sound way deeper than his regular voice.

That's definitely the same VA just... with a greatly lowered pitch... for some reason...
I don't get it either, and yeah it bothers me too. Captain Falcon, Marth and several other characters do it too.
Heck, with Falcon they just lowered the pitch of his his KO scream... and his KO scream is just a clipped version of his N64 star KO scream...

**** like this makes me curious about how voice recording for a video game works. Is it just a huge pain in the ass? Or just at the absolute bottom of the priority list? I don't know why I'm such a geek about voice acting in a video game, but nothing makes me sperg out more than blatant inconsistency like this!

 

[Sykkamorre]

That's definitely the same VA just... with a greatly lowered pitch... for some reason...
I don't get it either, and yeah it bothers me too. Captain Falcon, Marth and several other characters do it too.
Heck, with Falcon they just lowered the pitch of his his KO scream... and his KO scream is just a clipped version of his N64 star KO scream...

**** like this makes me curious about how voice recording for a video game works. Is it just a huge pain in the ***? Or just at the absolute bottom of the priority list? I don't know why I'm such a geek about voice acting in a video game, but nothing makes me sperg out more than blatant inconsistency like this!

As a voice actor, I can't really see how difficult it would be to get new sound clips. Especially if you're using the same actor as the previous title.

Saying that, I have no idea in the slightest about the difficulties of placing said clips into a game... so yeah.

 

[Electric Tuba]

There's no technical difficulties in putting new sound files in for characters. Maybe they don't want to hire someone new or pay the old guy, but technically it's as simple as any other sound effect.

 

[Z1GMA]

He sounds like Heihachi when he grunts.

 

[Hydde]

SOunds bad. Thats all. Ganon sound like an old grandpa.

His voice should be deep and apocaliptic

 

[Ray_Kalm]

His Hyrule Warrior voice is pretty deep and apocalyptic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_52BudQV34g&t=11m48s

 

[A2ZOMG]

SOunds badass. Thats all. Ganon sound like an old grandpa.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassGrandpa

Fixed. And I concur.

 

[Kamiko]

Yeah, um.... Freezing and committing genocide on 2 entire races(ie the Zoras and the Gorons) totally isn't causing suffering.

The freezeover was Morpha's doing, not Ganondorf's. And I've already explained the Goron part, but they were never actually killed.

That's like how Hitler only sending Jews, Homosexuals, and mentally challenged people totally didn't cause suffering.

They weren't in Hitler's way, yet he killed them anyway. Very painfully. Name one time Ganondorf did something on that level.

Not to mention enslavement of an entire race(the twili),

That was Zant. Ganondorf just empowered him.

and the enslavement and possession of people(hylian knights in A Link to the Past),

Generally, when people get mind controlled, they're completely unaware of what's going on. So I don't see any suffering there.

the destruction of an entire island that had people on it,

Jabun was hiding there with one of the pearls, so once again, that had a reason beyond just wanting to kill. But we don't even know if anyone was still there when it happened, or if Ganondorf was even directly responsible. We never actually see it happen, afterall, and at least Jabun escaped ahead of time. Would Jabun leave people behind, knowing the island was in danger?
Also because of cut dungeons and all that.

stealing little girls from their homes and putting them into prison.

They seemed pretty unharmed to me.

Ganondorf has done plenty to cause grief and suffering. What reason would he have to kill off all of the gorons and the zoras?

As said above, he didn't do that.

Also, it adds in the Hyrule Historia that in TP, "Ganondorf is full of wickedness and hatred"

Yes, it does. What about it?

We can also debate the things about Demise all day, but Demise is literally a reincarnation of Ganondorf much like Link and Zelda are. As the series has experimented with incarnation , yet the main 3 stays the same. It (almost) always needs to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the spirit of the hero, and then the reincarnation of the god of hatred, demise. We can definitely assume the reason Demise is no longer there is the same reason Hylia is gone. Hylia was extremely weak after fending off and sealing demise, so, in order to save herself, she made herself human. This is almost definitely what happened after Link defeated Demise. So to question Demise reincarnations himself, is to question Hylia and Link.

There's no indication that Ganondorf is Demise reborn, and every reason to believe he is more like Demise's hatred given form. Demise directly said so himself. Where are you even getting your ideas from?

Yes Yuga is a he, that was just a typo on my part. But let me ask you this, what is stopping Ganondorf from being beastial? The new Ganondorf from four swords adventures did it, yet he had to have been born human.

Beastial? This part of the argument was about mindlessness. FSA Ganon isn't mindless. That Ganon also seems to have a very different personality though.

Loz makes a fine point. I don't think it's accurate to measure evil in terms of inclusivity, rather, degree. That is, I think the magnitude of evil actions committed takes precedence over the categories into which said acts fit.

I feel like you're not even reading my posts. I don't know what exactly you mean by "inclusivity", since I've said nothing that that word can apply to, but the "magnitude of evil" in Ganondorf's actions is relatively low. He's killed people who have gotten in his way, but generally left everyone else alone. Is that really what you'd call the 'ultimate evil'? All I've been saying is that he's not the 'Murder and destruction! Mwuhahaha!' kind of villain that posts like the thread opener make him out to be.

In other words, as I said before, efficiency and evil aren't mutually exclusive. You can be both highly productive and a King of Evil at the same time.

I don't see how this has anything to do with what we're discussing.

 

[Exalted]

Just gonna leave this here:

 

[McX]

Found this for you ganon users, if you haven't already seen

 

[DLA]

Sigh...they've actually done it. I scarcely thought it possible, but they actually made Ganon worse than Brawl.

-Autocanceled Dair is gone. Not only that, but it's weakened and you can even tech it to cancel the knockback.

-Side B no longer has any guaranteed followups, and is techable. Aerial side B still has a small, impractical hitbox.

-Still has ****ty Utilt, Warlock Punch is still useless, despite super armor.

-Dash attack, IMO his best move in Brawl, seems to be weakened.

-Jab seems to have more cooldown.

-Bair looks stronger, but it feels like it has less active frames and is therefore harder to hit with. And considering how hard it was to hit with in Brawl, that's not a good thing.


It seems that his only saving grace will be the fact that he can punish landings better than in Brawl because of the new air dodge mechanics. Fsmash seems to be stronger (though not much, if at all) and Ftilt might be stronger too, so he has the tools to punish landings hard. But good luck actually approaching opponents and getting them in the air.

Hopefully custom moves may alleviate some of this if they're legal, but my hopes aren't very high because other characters will be improved by custom moves as well.


Gentlemen. Looks like we have some work to do.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Y'know, that's what I thought not long ago. And I mean, I'm gonna quickly agree that Ganon's pretty bad(***).

But put things in perspective. Everyone in this game got nerfed.

I'm not sure how you reached the conclusion that Jab has more cooldown. I mean...it was always unsafe on spotdodge in Brawl. The thing most of us have observed is it does appear to have faster STARTUP. Of course, we could be making **** up, but it just seems like Ganon can interrupt more rushdown in this game than he could previously.

Yeah, D-air nerfs are annoying. Though realistically the most we got out of it onstage was safe techchase followups after Flame Choke mostly and then some funny punishes on spotdodge. Ganondorf still more importantly has his really powerful F-smash for killing people who make a mistake next to him.

Yes, I'm very upset Flame Choke is techable too. But Ganonciding now is favorable, and the move itself does more damage. Even if we don't have the same guaranteed followups, the fact Flame Choke does more damage is a buff to dealing with stale moves when more of Ganon's non-KO moves deal damage faster.

And there's a few other Ganon buffs that are MUCH more important than anything else that has changed about him. Well, one of them would be the Jab startup buff.

However, F-air has less landing lag, and is less of a commitment to edgeguard with in this game. F-air is goooood in this game. Pretty safe on block, murders things when it hits.

Ganondorf also doesn't get edgehogged in this game, which was one of his biggest problems. Means you survive much longer, and can be much more ballsy when edgeguarding.

Ganondorf is also the scariest character to get edge stolen by. Edge steal -> B-air can kill anyone at like 80% easy.

Ganondorf imo is probably viable, even if he's the worst character. I don't think he has real HARD counters in this game yet. Everyone looks beatable.

 

[Primer TMT]

Sigh...they've actually done it. I scarcely thought it possible, but they actually made Ganon worse than Brawl.

-Autocanceled Dair is gone. Not only that, but it's weakened and you can even tech it to cancel the knockback.

-Side B no longer has any guaranteed followups, and is techable. Aerial side B still has a small, impractical hitbox.

-Still has ****ty Utilt, Warlock Punch is still useless, despite super armor.

-Dash attack, IMO his best move in Brawl, seems to be weakened.

-Jab seems to have more cooldown.

-Bair looks stronger, but it feels like it has less active frames and is therefore harder to hit with. And considering how hard it was to hit with in Brawl, that's not a good thing.


It seems that his only saving grace will be the fact that he can punish landings better than in Brawl because of the new air dodge mechanics. Fsmash seems to be stronger (though not much, if at all) and Ftilt might be stronger too, so he has the tools to punish landings hard. But good luck actually approaching opponents and getting them in the air.

Hopefully custom moves may alleviate some of this if they're legal, but my hopes aren't very high because other characters will be improved by custom moves as well.

they made worse ganon...or you think it's worse?

 

[mangamusicfan]

Found this for you ganon users, if you haven't already seen

Hahaha

 

[DLA]

Autocanceled Dair is much more important than you think. It's maybe his best spacing tool in Brawl; it's just as important when it doesn't hit as when it does hit. It makes opponents scared to try to trade with Ganon, and to approach him on the ground with dash attacks and such. The startup buff of jab doesn't even come close to the damage done by nerfing Dair.

Good players never got Ganoncided in Brawl if they were paying attention, and it'll be no different in this game. The removal of guaranteed followups on side B hurts Ganon so much more than increased ease of Ganoncides help him. Out of flame choke, Ganon got a guaranteed KO on 3/4ths of the cast in Brawl with instant dash attack. Those KOs were essential for him. Now he needs to make a hard read to get a KO after flame choke, and even then it won't be as easy to kill with as i DA was in Brawl, unless the opponent is dumb enough to roll behind and get Fsmashed.

Fair was buffed but it still doesn't seem at all safe on shield to me. And if you misspace and whiff, it's a super easy punish. It's not a very good move at all, but unfortunately it's all he's got.

As far as edge stealing goes, all you have to do is get off the edge to avoid this. People are going to learn this very early on.

As much as I'd like to look at the glass half full now like you guys, I'm pretty sure you're going to change your tune too when you get zoned out by duck hunt dog at your first 3ds tournaments. Or, like, any of the 15+ god awful MUs he's going to doubtlessly have. You might not realize it from playing For Glory with scrubs, but Ganon's going to have a really really hard time in in tournament.

they made worse ganon...or you think it's worse?

My post literally explained why he's worse lol.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Just wondering if salmon-smashing is still in smash 4...if so, we can also punish people rolling away after gerudo.
If not, well ****.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd be inclined to agree Duck Hunt is a candidate for being one of Ganon's hardest matchups, along with Sheik. I don't yet have reason to believe those matchups are unwinnable when nobody in this game kills nearly as fast as they did in Brawl, though they are suspect matchups.

I mean in Brawl, tilts on average did like 9-11%, whereas in this game more of them do like 7%. Aerials similarly, in Brawl more of them did closer to 13% on average, whereas Smash 4 aerials do more like 8-10% in this game. That's true for most characters who aren't explicitly Bowser and Ganondorf. Throw combos also are really limited in this game, more often than not, D-throw -> aerial for most characters is like 13-15 damage lol. Most chars in a very ideal case scenario struggle to do more than 20% out of throws in this game. There is so much less bull**** for Ganon to deal with in this game compared to what existed in Brawl, while his damage per hit and KO power remained about the same.

Let's also keep in mind that Ganondorf doesn't get edgehogged in this game, meaning you're much more likely to survive to 150%+ against good players. Let's also keep in mind that the advantages of a more reliable recovery means your edgeguarding is significantly better. And I mean, Ganondorf being able to hit you with anything offstage is TERRIFYING.

I'll take better recovery, edgeguarding, Jab, and F-air over nerfed D-air and Flame Choke. Sure, it doesn't make Ganon a great character, but I find it hard to believe you would call the changes a net nerf. And I mean seriously. Ganondorf was by far the worst and least viable character in Brawl. Consider all the BS he had to deal with in that game, note that most of it is gone, and that Ganon...is still Ganon and is the scariest character in the game on a read.

Yes, Ganon got some very unnecessary nerfs. But the system changes along with the few buffs he did get are much more important. That and you have to really consider that the general power level of most characters in this game is nowhere near what it was in Brawl. It's like in this game, you can get hit 6 times as Ganon, then get in a read and 2 hits and suddenly you're about even. Whereas in Brawl it was more like 3-4 hits from other characters did the damage of 2 Ganon hits.

Disregarding that Ganondorf is still able to kill you almost instantly if he edgeguards you successfully, and that it's much less risky for him to do.

 

[Super_Smasher6]

I actually find Ganondorf to be better than in Brawl simply for the fact that he is faster and has less landing lag on his aerial but they made him stronger! i'm sure he won't be the worst character in the game.

Here's what i noticed:

- A = faster
- Side tilt = faster and +- the same killing power as in brawl, it is actually my main killing move and my favorite attack. THIS IS SPARTA!
- Down tilt = seems a little bit faster and +- the same killing power as in brawl
- Up-tilt = still slow as hell but seems stronger
- Down smash = that smash is really worthless seriously, same **** as in Brawl: looks the same as Falcon's DS but can't kill anything... I find more use of Up-tilt than that attack...
- Up smash and forward smash = definitly stronger!
- Up air = still the same very usefull move and good killing power
- Down air = still strong but no auto cancel make it now practicaly useless on the ground
- Back air = Faster, stronger, little to non existent landing lag
- forward air = faster; stronger, less landing lag
- Down B = seems a bit faster, cover a bit more range and has a bit more knockback but definitly not a killing move
- side B = also looks like it is a bit faster and has better range
- Dash attack = definitly weaker but it CAN still kill, tested in training mode on Metaknight, killed him at 126%

So in my opinion his only move that got nerfed are Down Air and Dash Attack.

 

[Primer TMT]

well DLA..only for you Ganondorf is worse now..!!! wait a month and maybe you will change the way you're thinking about dorf :3

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I'm going to a Smash 3DS tournament next weekend. I'll be using Ganondorf only. I'll see how well he does and doesn't do and let you guys know my initial thoughts of how his metagame will develop.

(Also, watch me live, I'll provide the Twitch link).

 

[Koskinator]

*emerges from dark purple rift*

 

[Koskinator]

Sooooo who wants a piece

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sooooo who wants a piece

No 3DS here. Yet.

But I might demand rematches on the Wii-U.

 

[Vermanubis]

Gonna have to agree with DLA. I'm perfectly willing to be optimistic, but my truest feeling right now is that he's either equal or worse. Not to say people shouldn't still use him. In fact, quite the opposite. I'm not saying this to spook people, rather, just as a matter of fact. The DAir nerf is the single most damaging thing that could've happened to him, followed by being able to tech chokes.

All the same, I say be optimistic. Where there's a will, there's a way. Only thing I expect in exchange for that optimism is not ducking out on the Dorf when the going gets tough.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Gonna have to agree with DLA. I'm perfectly willing to be optimistic, but my truest feeling right now is that he's either equal or worse. Not to say people shouldn't still use him. In fact, quite the opposite. I'm not saying this to spook people, rather, just as a matter of fact. The DAir nerf is the single most damaging thing that could've happened to him, followed by being able to tech chokes.

All the same, I say be optimistic. Where there's a will, there's a way. Only thing I expect in exchange for that optimism is not ducking out on the Dorf when the going gets tough.

If the rest of the cast wasn't nerfed considerably and if the top tier was competing with stuff like Brawl Metaknight/Olimar, I'd pretty much agree Smash 4 Ganon is worse. I mean...most of you should have seen me complain about this character and the questionable balance changes made directly to him.

It's just from what I've seen, it's extremely noticeable how much of a difference general game changes benefit Ganon. The fact that characters struggle to break 10% on individual attacks in this game, and the fact Ganondorf can't just be edgehogged to death is so significant when you consider his general playstyle hinges on calculated risk. Ganondorf's damage is virtually untouched from Brawl, minus some shifts here and there, so Ganon overall is one of the most damaging characters in the game period when he's captializing on you.

It's like, you might get hit like 6 times, but then you land two hits as Ganon and suddenly you're even, whereas in Brawl it only took people closer to 3-4 attacks to break even with 2 Ganon hits. And Ganon's edgeguarding is waaaaay less risky, but just as deadly as before.

Ganondorf by design isn't about simply outperforming you in neutral. It's about him making that one read that seals him the advantage and suddenly puts his opponent in a position where he can end them. You have much more margin of error to do that in this game because nobody kills as fast or cheeses in this game nearly to the extent of any other Smash game.

Of course that makes him almost certainly competitively bottom tier. I'll be the first person to argue that. But his playstyle is significantly more viable than it used to be.

I mean, in BlazBlue, even Iron Tager was able to make it to competitive Grand Finals, simply because the character by design can end you in like 2 good reads even though he's totally terrible in neutral.

 

[Grey Belnades]

SOunds bad. Thats all. Ganon sound like an old grandpa.

His voice should be deep and apocaliptic

Good thing I use the old man color. Goes in hand in hand.

 

[jahkzheng]

Just wanted to say that I unlocked Ganon twice in two days... once in Hyrule Warriors and the day after in Smash. Both are fun and awesome... as if that had to be said.

That is all.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Just wanted to say that I unlocked Ganon twice in two days... once in Hyrule Warriors and the day after in Smash. Both are fun and awesome... as if that had to be said.

That is all.

But it still too bad SSB Ganon doesn't fight (or looks like) Ganon in HW. Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf is a freaking monster! Ganon in SSB is if anything just a shadow of that...

 

[Vermanubis]

I can't argue about the positives, A2. You're definitely bullseyeing the good in him this time around. But what I meant more than anything was that, he may very well be overall a better character in Sm4sh because of the new mechanics, but as a character himself, he's been nerfed. To be honest, teching Gerudo isn't even a big deal to me. My biggest complaints are the no FH AC aerials, and no DAir. Rolls are godlike in this game. Absolutely godlike. Those who master the roll > grab will have pioneered the metagame for 2014.

So, if he had his DAir still... no. I don't even want to think about what could have been.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon does have FH AC aerials. And if his DAir was able to autocancel this game, he'd be instantly top tier. Yes, top tier. Ganon's rolls are actually very good this game, I may argue that they're better than many other rolls. This game works differently.

Comparing Ganon from Brawl to Ganon in Smash 4 and saying he's been nerfed makes no difference on how he'll actually play and compare with others.

 

[Primer TMT]

oh god...the best's ganondorf crying...oh God why u-u hahaha

 

[A2ZOMG]

The main thing to remember with AC D-air in this game is I believe we would only be able to land Jab or Grab on people who instantly tech the meteor. Honestly, especially with the new ground bounce mechanics, in a perfect world, I'd ask for Nintendo to make meteors untechable...which would simultaneously also fix Flame Choke.

 

[Vermanubis]

Ah, you're right, Kalm, I misspoke. I didn't mean AC, rather, FH aerial > another aerial. Dunno why that came out as FH AC aerials.

And you're absolutely right about just about everything you said. Like I said, I'm not arguing that he's nonviable and that he's without strengths. After all, I fully intend to use him and my aim is to win tournaments. But I'm coming strictly from a theoretical point of view. The implications of which are any person's to take as they will.

Furthermore, it's not that I'm lamenting that he's bad without his AC DAir, rather, the fact that we would indeed approach higher places - not sure about top tier, necessarily - but definitely higher all the same, by virtue of how otherwise safe rolls are.

@A2: The absence of it is most noticeable to me, in that which it severely limits Ganon's options when someone's directly in front of him and especially behind him. His combo potential's good enough in this that DAir as a damage racking or KO tool isn't missed, so much as his former ability to control his space when someone's too close. One of Ganon's biggest weaknesses will definitely be short characters that're behind him. Of course, this isn't to say we can't be inventive with our coping (murder) strategies, but as a matter of fact, it's a thing now that we have no direct answers to.

 

[Shogger]

Hey guys, just registered, huge Ganon main.

I too mourn the loss of AC Dair. I hold out a tiny bit of hope that a balance patch might restore one of Ganon's greatest tools.

However, I have hope that Ganon mains will find more ways to get the most out of the 'Dorf. And of course there are his many other indirect buffs simply from the changes to survivability, ledge mechanics, etc.

I also am hoping that custom specials will be a thing in competitive. I feel like Ganon's new wizkick (the blue one that angles) REALLY patches up his recovery and gives him amazing mobility and more options to avoid being juggled. It would really suck if it weren't allowed.

 

[Vermanubis]

Welcome to the darkest place on the internet, my friend.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Sooooo who wants a piece

My 3DS code's on the left. What's yours?