Social The Ganonic Grimoire - Kongregation of Kings

[Lozjam]

It is a problem as I can be WoPed or flagged or something with minimal effort. They'll often wise up and make me sd without them, so I don't rely on that often unless they're grounded or I need to reset desperately.

That's exactly why it is useful. They "wise up" and don't attack you horizontally or not even at all. That means that they will either attack from above(which Uair can almost definitely handle), below(a good dair or aerial wizkick will all but ensure a kill). You have more options than you think. Remember, being Ganondorf means that you make your opponents afraid and using mind games around that(that was very clearly shown within all of my uses of flame choke). I have lot to learn from you and your combos, but you also have a lot to learn from me and mind games. If we can utilize both of these, our Ganondorfs will be amazing.

 

[Xinc]

That's exactly why it is useful. They "wise up" and don't attack you horizontally or not even at all. That means that they will either attack from above(which Uair can almost definitely handle), below(a good dair or aerial wizkick will all but ensure a kill). You have more options than you think. Remember, being Ganondorf means that you make your opponents afraid and using mind games around that(that was very clearly shown within all of my uses of flame choke). I have lot to learn from you and your combos, but you also have a lot to learn from me and mind games. If we can utilize both of these, our Ganondorfs will be amazing.

One should always be careful to not "over extend" with combos or you might find yourself in a horrible situation.

Also, happy thanksgiving to those who celebrate it. Ganondorf is awaiting a turkey from you as a token of appreciation for letting you play as him.

 

[Bloodynite]

Happy Thanksgiving my fellow lords of darkness

 

[Opana]

I am an overly risky player, but even so I just would rather use a fair as it also eats projectiles.

I always try and make the combos last as long as possible through a series of reads, but I can admit that this does back fire. It rarely is a game changer for me though, and even if it was I much more often get rewarded than punished.

I guess the best way to put it is, in theory it's terrible, in action it's pretty good.

 

[Grey Belnades]

May you all have a feast worthy of the Dark Lord tonight.

 

[Opana]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guoksvQ_27o

This gave me the idea to mess with dorf some more. Dair does the same thing as fair when not sweetspotted.

This leads to an automatic get up I believe, and if so it should guarantee a short hop flame choke suicide when they're at 0.

EDIT: Assuming they're forced into the get up, I got it to work on Bower via fair, followed by walk/running his body over closer, then dashing away and immediately short hop flame choking him steered forward.

EDIT2: A reverse warlock punch may be guaranteed or near guaranteed, if so it can potentially kill just from these two hits from zero.

EDIT3: Normal Warlock Punch is guaranteed, nearly positive here.

 

[Bloodynite]

If possible Opana some vid clips would be nice

 

[Jiom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guoksvQ_27o

This gave me the idea to mess with dorf some more. Dair does the same thing as fair when not sweetspotted.

This leads to an automatic get up I believe, and if so it should guarantee a short hop flame choke suicide when they're at 0.

EDIT: Assuming they're forced into the get up, I got it to work on Bower via fair, followed by walk/running his body over closer, then dashing away and immediately short hop flame choking him steered forward.

EDIT2: A reverse warlock punch may be guaranteed or near guaranteed, if so it can potentially kill just from these two hits from zero.

EDIT3: Normal Warlock Punch is guaranteed, nearly positive here.

Not sure how long ganon can keep the "jab lock" but I know he can get at least one sour spot upair to continue it.

 

[Opana]

If possible Opana some vid clips would be nice

I would love to, just need some time.

 

[Lozjam]

So guys, with the subject of balance patches, do you guys think Ganondorf will be changed in the next balance patch? What do you guys want to see changed?

 

[Naroghin]

Dair animation shortened enough to SH auto-cancel?

 

[A2ZOMG]

So guys, with the subject of balance patches, do you guys think Ganondorf will be changed in the next balance patch? What do you guys want to see changed?

I want D-smash to be fixed to both connect more consistently on everyone and so that the 2nd hit doesn't do dumb crap where it pulls people towards Ganondorf on block.

Then I want Jab startup to be sped up by about 2-3 frames, or to give it an active hitbox duration of about 7 frames.

Change those two moves, and Ganondorf is perfect.

 

[Lozjam]

I want D-smash to be fixed to both connect more consistently on everyone and so that the 2nd hit doesn't do dumb crap where it pulls people towards Ganondorf on block.

Then I want Jab startup to be sped up by about 2-3 frames, or to give it an active hitbox duration of about 7 frames.

Change those two moves, and Ganondorf is perfect.

And give him SH AC Dairs and a slightly longer grab reach and then I'm good. I just hope Sakurai doesn't nerf Ganondorf without giving him buffs.....

 

[Xinc]

And give him SH AC Dairs and a slightly longer grab reach and then I'm good. I just hope Sakurai doesn't nerf Ganondorf without giving him buffs.....

Ideal and logical:
Faster jab (Melee jab would be nice, yes. I don't care that much about decreased range), Dsmash connect consistently (Weak hit close hitbox sends opponent away rather than toward second hit), NO TECH FOR CHOKE, Thunderstorm, better grab range. We need moar tricks.

 

[Opana]

All I want is faster air speed, I feel like his air speed got nerfed or something. It'd help with gimps to an extent, as well as allow you to chase easier offstage.

 

[Z1GMA]

About his Jab. Sure it's frame 8, like in Brawl, but it's still "faster".
It has better priority, a more generous vertical hitbox, but most importantly better horizontal range.
All these combined makes it a "faster" move than its Brawl Version, even though both are 8-framers.

An 8-frame-move with the range of Squirtle's jab would be condidered a slow move, but a 8-frame-move with the range of ZSS' side+b would be considered extremely fast.
Think of it as mph.

And give him SH AC Dairs and a slightly longer grab reach

I find his Pivot Grab surprisingly good, rangewise, this time around, though.

 

[Rizen]

^The problem is that Jab is Ganon's fastest ground move. It might work more like a tilt but Ganon doesn't have any quick options to cover what a normal jab would.

I realized after watching Twilight Princess, Ganon is the only character bad*** enough to die standing.

 

[Lozjam]

About his Jab. Sure it's frame 8, like in Brawl, but it's still "faster".
It has better priority, a more generous vertical hitbox, but most importantly better horizontal range.
All these combined makes it a "faster" move than its Brawl Version, even though both are 8-framers.

An 8-frame-move with the range of Squirtle's jab would be condidered a slow move, but a 8-frame-move with the range of ZSS' side+b would be considered extremely fast.
Think of it as mph.

I find his Pivot Grab surprisingly good, rangewise, this time around, though.

What are the applications f pivot grab though. I have not found that many, as flame choke is the best while moving, and pivot ftilt has really nice knock back and damage as an option while moving.

 

[A2ZOMG]

About his Jab. Sure it's frame 8, like in Brawl, but it's still "faster".
It has better priority, a more generous vertical hitbox, but most importantly better horizontal range.
All these combined makes it a "faster" move than its Brawl Version, even though both are 8-framers.

An 8-frame-move with the range of Squirtle's jab would be condidered a slow move, but a 8-frame-move with the range of ZSS' side+b would be considered extremely fast.
Think of it as mph.

I find his Pivot Grab surprisingly good, rangewise, this time around, though.

Not sure I follow you on Ganon's Jab. It is identical to his Brawl Jab in terms of speed and range.

The fact we don't have a move that's faster than frame 7 is a pretty big problem when fighting Sheik, who outpressures Ganondorf pretty hard and is very hard to space against. A faster or longer duration Jab would easily make the matchup less stupid because then we would have a reasonable answer to her SH aerial pressure.

What are the applications f pivot grab though. I have not found that many, as flame choke is the best while moving, and pivot ftilt has really nice knock back and damage as an option while moving.

Pivot grab is the lowest commitment, and also does the most guaranteed damage of the options listed. Pummel + F-throw is 16 damage.

Just getting a grab as Ganondorf is very significant, because any damage you do with throws instead of attacks effectively lets you KO with your attacks 10% earlier when they are fresher.

 

[Opana]

Was wrong about the platform combo into Warlock Punch, sorry about that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKAlvVXmBtk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myXDFUQNTMM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjpcZlDF9d0

If anyone i interested, it's vs. a good Mac and Zard, although the Zard I got good in this match lol.

 

[tekkie]

i'm loving Ganondorf in sm4sh and plan on spending a lot more time with him

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Hey guys Im headed to a medium sized tournament today, before the week of the Canadian apex circuit.

Planning on attending Wii U Singles & Doubles (Doubles with Ganon and my partner as Robin), I will also attend Brawl Singles and doubles.

 

[Lozjam]

Hey guys Im headed to a medium sized tournament today, before the week of the Canadian apex circuit.

Planning on attending Wii U Singles & Doubles (Doubles with Ganon and my partner as Robin), I will also attend Brawl Singles and doubles.

Hmmmm.... I actually have someone who is getting the Wii U version for christmas... She is one of the best Smash players in my area and we are great friends.... Who would work best in doubles with Ganondorf?

But good luck! I hope you do amazing and make Ganondorf proud!

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Hmmmm.... I actually have someone who is getting the Wii U version for christmas... She is one of the best Smash players in my area and we are great friends.... Who would work best in doubles with Ganondorf?

But good luck! I hope you do amazing and make Ganondorf proud!

In doubles, it's hard to say. I'm teaming up with my brother, who is a very good smash player, and we're able to do some amazing stuff with the two characters. Arch fire and Ganon's heavy hits make for a great potential.

Here is the stream btw: http://www.twitch.tv/acgamesonline/mobile

Should be on soon.

 

[Lozjam]

In doubles, it's hard to say. I'm teaming up with my brother, who is a very good smash player, and we're able to do some amazing stuff with the two characters. Arch fire and Ganon's heavy hits make for a great potential.

Here is the stream btw: http://www.twitch.tv/acgamesonline/mobile

Should be on soon.

I'll be watching

 

[SwineofWar]

In doubles, it's hard to say. I'm teaming up with my brother, who is a very good smash player, and we're able to do some amazing stuff with the two characters. Arch fire and Ganon's heavy hits make for a great potential.

Should be on soon.

Looking forward to it.

 

[Vidd]

I picked up Ganondorf as a secondary to Mario and my god, I never realised how fun this guy is to play. Everything is just so powerful. It's so satisfying to blast Links and Mega Mans into orbit after they spend all game running and firing projectiles.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Here's how I did guys; 1st in Wii U doubles as Ganon with Robin as a teammate.

2nd in Brawl doubles as Marth and Metaknight as a teammate.

3rd in Wii U Singles as full Ganon.

3rd in Brawl Singles as Marth.

Expected to do better in Wii U Singles, but hopefully I'll showcase Ganon better next week.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

@ Z1GMA Do you want to play some Ganon games?

 

[Opana]

Fighting inside a custom stage

This is pretty cool, not really Ganon specific but fun to mes around with for those with the U version.

 

[Bloodynite]

anyone know if ganon still has his salmon fsmash?

 

[Shogger]

anyone know if ganon still has his salmon fsmash?

Don't quote me on this, but I believe salmon smashing is out.

 

[jahkzheng]

Here's how I did guys; 1st in Wii U doubles as Ganon with Robin as a teammate.

2nd in Brawl doubles as Marth and Metaknight as a teammate.

3rd in Wii U Singles as full Ganon.

3rd in Brawl Singles as Marth.

Expected to do better in Wii U Singles, but hopefully I'll showcase Ganon better next week.

Think that stream will ever be pared down to a more viewable form such as match vids on Youtube? Or do you at least have the time stamps to find your matches. I am curious about how those 2v2s went with Robin in particular but also your 1v1s and how you matched up and stuff.

 

[fromundaman]

I haven't been on the Ganon boards as much as I'd like, but I have been repping the dark lord at tournaments for a while now (I seem to always place 3rd or 4th with Megaman/Ganon).

Anyway just dropping by to say hello.


Also, has anyone talked about how ridiculously safe Usmash is?
I use that as a spacing tool and just charge it at roll range all the time, especially after a knockdown; you can let it go and punish any attempt to punish you or if you see a roll keep holding it for what looks like the hardest read of all time (But is actually more of a "I'll throw this out because you can't do anything about it and see if it works" type of thing).


EDIT:

Oh and does anyone have any advice on getting back onstage vs Rosalina? I don't have trouble with the MU onstage, and can usually recover well against most of the cast, but god Rosalina's Dair offstage gives me nightmares.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Oh hey, it's undaman! I remember you.

Anyways, the only thing I can think of in regards to Rosalina is trying to recover from beneath the edge with reverse Up+bs and the like.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Also, has anyone talked about how ridiculously safe Usmash is?
I use that as a spacing tool and just charge it at roll range all the time, especially after a knockdown; you can let it go and punish any attempt to punish you or if you see a roll keep holding it for what looks like the hardest read of all time (But is actually more of a "I'll throw this out because you can't do anything about it and see if it works" type of thing).

U-smash imo fills the same purpose as AC D-air, except you can charge U-smash, and it's disjointed enough to sometimes beat out a few things horizontally.

Also if the damage to shieldstun ratio is 1.25 like @ Shaya suggested, then I believe Ganondorf's uncharged U-smash is -5 on block lol. Won't happen often, but funny to know.

Also, N-air may in fact be just -9 or -13 on block if spaced well (factoring our N-air has 18 frames landing lag, and does either 12 or 7 damage). Seriously, I believe Ganondorf actually benefits a lot from shield stun mechanics in this game.

 

[Shogger]

Oh and does anyone have any advice on getting back onstage vs Rosalina? I don't have trouble with the MU onstage, and can usually recover well against most of the cast, but god Rosalina's Dair offstage gives me nightmares.

I usually recover very, VERY low if I think my opponent will go for a standard gimp (ledgedrop into aerial.) You may want to save your doublejump and then try to contest with Nair if she is level with you.

 

[Shaya]

U-smash imo fills the same purpose as AC D-air, except you can charge U-smash, and it's disjointed enough to sometimes beat out a few things horizontally.

Also if the damage to shieldstun ratio is 1.25 like @ Shaya suggested, then I believe Ganondorf's uncharged U-smash is -5 on block lol. Won't happen often, but funny to know.

Also, N-air may in fact be just -9 or -13 on block if spaced well (factoring our N-air has 18 frames landing lag, and does either 12 or 7 damage). Seriously, I believe Ganondorf actually benefits a lot from shield stun mechanics in this game.

Decimal points are real at 1/4th speed in training mode.

DMG | Hit Lag | Shield Stun
4 | 5.25 | 3
6 | 6 | 3.5
7 | 6.25 | 3.75
10 | 7.5 | ?
13 | 9.25 | 5.75
19 | 11.25 | 7
3 | 5.25 | 2

Honestly don't even know if I'm accurately gathering these, but I don't think the numbers are actually higher (definitely not after rounding).
Little Mac has an animation when he leaves shield hit lag, and also starts to move his hands again when he leaves shield stun depending on if you angle your shield.

Things aren't linear. This is honestly something for two players on the WiiU, my attempts to get these on the 3DS in training mode were torture.

 

[Grey Belnades]

Here's how I did guys; 1st in Wii U doubles as Ganon with Robin as a teammate.

2nd in Brawl doubles as Marth and Metaknight as a teammate.

3rd in Wii U Singles as full Ganon.

3rd in Brawl Singles as Marth.

Expected to do better in Wii U Singles, but hopefully I'll showcase Ganon better next week.

3rd in singles AND going full Ganon? You made the dark lord proud.

 

[Scabe]

Hey guys, I started using Ganon and after winning pretty solidly against my brother's characters (Little Mac, Toon Link, Zelda, Robin) until he started using Sheik.

Could be that my bother is bad, and I'm just better but I'm starting to think Ganon is pretty good, maybe his peak would be mid tier?

Anyways I was just wondering what you guys think Ganon's potential peak is in the tier list? Who would he be above?