Magus420
Smash Master
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UPDATE! [ 12-31-06]
High quality example vids added of 0-Death CG on Falco
Downloads:
(The 1/4 speed one is good for seeing when/where JC grabs are used & the different knockbacks with DI)
(...Also the sound is pretty silly when slowed down
)
1) 0-Death CG (Ganon vs Falco) (HQ) <-- Normal
2) 0-Death CG (Ganon vs Falco) (HQ) <-- Slo-Mo
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Introduction:
Welcome to my guide that focuses on chaingrabbing with Ganon's down throw, which is among the most extensive chaingrabs in the entire game. Though for the most part not quite as lengthy in duration and more challenging, Ganon's CG can be nearly as effective as Sheik's CG in NTSC (excluding their ability to get grabs in the first place), and can even be used on a broader range of characters. Not only that, but Ganon's CG requires far less area to effectively CG compared to Sheik's, as DIing Ganon's throws to try and end the CG at the edge of the stage will take far longer due to how it works.
Let's first get started with the list and then go from there. All of these are with the d-throw, and should be accurate to the exact percentage. Ness however could be off by maybe 1-3% due to his double jump and jump to airdodge alternative complicating things.
Chaingrabbable Characters:
Bowser --------- (4) ---- 0-72
Yoshi ------------ (2) ---- 0-36 (30+ make sure you grab his eyes before he spins around)
DK ---------------- (4) ---- 21-69
Ganon ---------- (3) ---- 0-67
Falco ------------- (5) --- 12-Death (250+)
Fox --------------- (5+) - 34-Death (250)
Ness ------------- (3) ---- 0-18 (Higher if they don't airdodge. Use dash grab for its duration)
Sheik ------------ (1) ---- 0-90 (80-90 is very tricky due to Sheik's skinny legs)
Link -------------- (3) ---- 0-74
Y Link ----------- (1) ---- 0-72 (Legs ftw)
Pichu ------------ (2) ---- 0-54 (Thank his bigass head for this one)
Pikachu --------- (1) ---- 0-37 (His tumble animation works very much in his favor to escape)
G&W ------------- (2) ---- 0-28
Marth ----------- (4) ---- 0-15
Roy -------------- (3) ---- 0-91 (Hooray legs!)
Reading the List:
The above list shows the ranges at which you can CG that character. The damages go by BEFORE the throw damage, and can thus vary by a couple % depending on how much your d-throw is doing. D-throw does 3-7 damage. It will be at least 5 as long as you hit them once during the grab. The ranges use 5 damage as the standard. The ones with a starting point after 0 will usually be possible 1-2% earlier since you'll just be starting it and the throw will most likely do 6-7 damage, but for consistency I kept the 5% standard to go along with everything else. Don't forget to take grab hits into account, and be sure to go by their damage AFTER those hits when deciding to end the CGs. Basically, if you are going to throw them and they are within the range listed you will be able to regrab them afterwards regardless of how they DI if you do it correctly.
The end of the range is based on the point at which they are able to DI slightly away (or anything else with equal result) to go perfectly straight up and then jump out before they are within regrabbing range. It's important that you grab peoples legs or whatever is closest to the ground at this point, as this is taken into account wherever applicable. Also bear in mind that if they continue to DI the throw in a way that results in them going anywhere but straight up, you will be able to regrab them beyond the numbers I have listed, particularly when they DI behind. Likewise, for the ones that don't begin at 0% you will be able to regrab them at lower damages than the starting number as well if they DI anywhere but behind you.
The 1st number after each name in parentheses is my general opinion of it's difficulty to do a good portion of the CGs range. They will obviously vary quite a bit from beginning to end, but it gives a pretty good idea. The scale is 1-5. 1 being the easiest whereas 5 is the most difficult. I gave Fox's a 5+ because I can't justify giving Falco's a 4, as his is insanely hard to do. Fox's is insanely hard and then some, and is by far the most difficult CG in the game imo.
For the most part, all of these are easiest in the middle/middle-later part of the said range, when reading their DI and timing your grabs is easier, but you still have a fair amount of leeway for timing a grab if they DI it to go straight up to try and jump out. They are generally toughest on the extremes of the ranges, albeit for different reasons.
Also, in Tipman's guide he states that you can CG Falcon, but I've found that not to be the case. Unless there's some secret way to grab him that I'm unaware of, they will escape at any % from the d-throw if they DI behind, and u-throw if they DI away. His weight and body size don't allow you catch him in time if they DI correctly. If I'm mistaken, feel free to correct me on this.
Getting to Know Ganon's Grabs & D-Throw:
(Frame data and unedited clips courtesy of Thomas Tipman and SuperDoodleMan)
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Standing Grab
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Hitbox Clip: Grab, 395kb
Grab: 7-8
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Running Grab
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Hitbox Clip: RunningGrab, 533kb
Grab: 11-13
Jump Canceled (JC) Grabbing:
JC grabbing is very important to Ganon's CG since it allows you do the faster standing grab while moving. It is done by hitting jump during a dash or run and then immediately grabbing during the startup of the jump before leaving the ground (6 frames aka 1/10 of a sec maximum in Ganon's case).
Getting the Most Out of Your JC Grabs:
While CGing, the fastest possible JC grab while gaining distance will get the hitbox out in 9 frames. To get the quickest JC grab, you must dash for 1 frame, jump on the next frame, and then grab on the frame after that. This is 3 frames faster than the fastest dash grab, which is 12 in total to come out (the minimum of 1 dash frame added to the dash grabs 11).
Additional frames between the dash and jump will have the JC grab come out at a farther distance. However, you ALWAYS want to grab 1 frame after the jump when you can, as hitting the grab after this will only cause the grab to come out later, and with no distance gained, thus wasting valuable time and could lead to their escape. If you dash an extra 3 frames than necessary to JC grab, it will come out at the same time as the shortest possible dash grab would, and the horizontal reach of of both grabs will be nearly identical on the first grab frame. However, the second grabbing frame of the JC grab will be farther than the dash grab due to sliding. I'll touch on that a bit more below.
Grabbing behind you will always take 1 additional frame, as a frame is used to do the turning around animation. Though it is only a tiny amount, the timing for a perfect JC grab is ever so slightly different behind you than when doing it in front. Get familiar with the tiny delay you must add between hitting the dash and jump. If you use the same timing as you would for the front when going for a grab behind you, you will simply turn around and JC grab with no movement which you don't want to do.
Standing, JCed, and Dash grabs each have their own specific ranges out of the d-throw that they can cover. You should get to know them well.
(Click the thumbnails to bring them up in full size)
|--Standing Grab Range--|------ JC Grab Range -----|---- Dash Grab Range ----|
|-- Standing+JC Range --|--Standing+Dash Range--|-All of the Above's Range-|
Understanding the Diagrams:
The larger colorcoded overlapping circles are the grab hitboxes of Ganon's various grabs on their 1st grabbing frame. JC and dash grabs display the ranges when they are done at their shortest possible startup times (and shortest distances), having 1 dash frame before starting the grab. How the range is affected by additional dash frames will be explained below.
The smaller yellow circle shows the location that they get sent from after the throw, and the yellow lines show the base directions they get sent depending on how they DI. Lower damages, faster falling speed, and lighter weight will cause these angles will bend and curve more downwards.
Though not entirely 100% exact, the black bars in the bottom right show the distances (use the actual width of the bars) that would shift the JCed and dash grab hitboxes from the shown locations. 'Dash Grab Shift' is the amount the hitboxes move over on each successive grabbing frame of the dash grab (dash grab has 3 grab frames total and thus moves over twice). 'JC Grab Shift' is the amount the hitboxes move for the second grabbing frame of a JC grab due to sliding (2 frames total so it shifts once). 'Dash Shift' shows the amount of distance added for each extra dash frame you add before JC or dash grabbing beyond the required 1 dash frame.
It's somewhat important to note that due to the hitboxes being overlapping circles, the grab range doesn't reach quite as high where they intersect and dips ever so slightly. This is something you should take into consideration when they are near escape percentages, and you should try to grab with the topmost parts of the hitboxes.
Notice how the standing grab gets very good stationary coverage nearby. Unlike someone such as Marth for example, there isn't a significant gap created between the front standing grab and turn around standing grabs. Pivoting a grab to get someone in this middle spot isn't necessary. If they come down near you, you will be able grab them by just facing whichever way would be better without needing to move. You should be aware of the slightly lower grab range here however for the timing of your grab. Although the dip here would make you grab them when they are closer to the ground, it is not enough for them to make use of it by DIing to this spot to try and jump out as the amount of height they lose from the angle of the knockback makes up for it. They would still be best off DIing to go straight upwards to escape.
Another thing you should notice is that dash grabs will grab closer inwards than JC grabs, which leave a rather large opening at the starting position. Though dash grabbing isn't really recommended for the most part as it is significantly slower, it can sometimes catch them where a JC grab would otherwise miss if you misread their DI thinking they are going foward and instead are sent a bit backwards.
Throwing Speeds:
(Thanks to 3GOD for the throw speed frame data)
The speed of the d-throw is based on the weight of the character being thrown. The heavier the character, the longer you must wait before you can try to regrab them. Though the weight gives a general idea of the overall pace of the CG and around when to go for a regrab, you should get familiar with Ganon's stance and appearance after a throw that you can first act. To see it, throw someone down while holding shield, and the moment the shield comes up is when you can 1st act. It's right around the time when he stands completely up all the way.
Ganon's position that he can go to grab again will always be the same, though the animation from the time you hit down to begin the throw and up until that point will be slowed down for heavy chars and sped up for lighter ones.
Soonest Actionable Frame After D-Throw (for Ganon):
Bowser ------------------- 47
DK -------------------------- 46
Ganon | Yoshi ----------- 44
Link ------------------------ 42
Ness ----------------------- 38
Sheik ---------------------- 37
Marth | Roy | Y Link --- 35
Falco | Pikachu ---------- 32
Fox -------------------------- 31
G&W ----------------------- 24
Pichu ---------------------- 23
60 frames = 1 second, so for Ganon & Yoshi, it's ~3/4 of a second after you hit down before you can go to grab them again, and ~1/2 a second for Fox.
These results were from version 1.0 of Smash, so they may vary with different versions. Also, just to explain a little more clearly, suppose you (Ganon of course!) grab Roy. The moment you press down on the control stick is frame 1. On frame 35, you can regrab, dash, jump, jab, etc.
The Application:
The Low End:
At the low ends of the CGs, the most important thing you should always be looking out for and anticipating them doing is DIing behind you. The combination of turning around eating a frame, farthest horizontal distance, and shortest amount of time for them to reach the ground due to lowest trajectory forces you to do a more complex action with less time to work with than any other DI. Players that are familiar with how Ganon's CG works will generally DI behind you more than anything at low damage as it is the easiest way for you to mess up and have them escape. Anything else at that point will be far easier to catch.
Most characters will not be able to be grabbed by turning around and doing a standing grab behind you if they DI behind you. Sheik (lower damages), Fox (mid/high), and Falco (mid) are among the few exceptions at certain ranges. You should JC grab to catch the others. If you aren't entirely certain that a standing grab will be able to catch them just do a JC grab.
You should also learn to distinguish partial away DI, which can be caught with a standing grab, from full DI away that will require a JC grab for the most part. Most allow you a bit more time to judge compared to behind DI, though with Fox & Falco you must be able to judge this very quickly.
The Later Parts:
On the high ends of the CG ranges your focus shifts away some from behind DI, which becomes a bit easier, and more towards when they DI away to go nearly or entirely straight up as they will jump out if you aren't careful.
After seeing them DI this way, pay very close attention to their character's location, fall speed, and tumble animation. If they are going anywhere between straight up to slightly away you will not be able to use a standing grab effectively, as it will be hitting too low if it does at all.
If you are CGing this far into the range be sure you are very familiar with the timing of Ganon's grab. You should have them 'fall' into your grab, so that they get grabbed at the earliest frame possible. The standing grab has 2 grabbing frames so this helps a bit. If you find timing the standing/JC grab this way is too difficult and you are often whiffing the grab or they are jumping out then you suck and need to practice more. LOL, just kidding, but the standing/JC grab is generally the best option and accurate timing should be learned for this situation.
Alternatively, you can take advantage of the dash grab's slightly longer duration of 3 frames to aid in having them fall into your grabbing range, but be aware that it grabs slightly lower than a standing grab, and the longer start up of the dash grab may negate the duration benefit by being a bit harder to time anyway.
You may find one grab type significantly easier for you personally though so go with what gives you the best results.
With the high damage CGs, dash grabs can sometimes be as good as JC grabs when they DI away or behind, and a few of them are easier or even required (Fox/Falco DIing behind at stupidly high damage) over JC grabs so bear that in mind.
Finishing the CG:
Depending on the character, you have a number of good options for finishing the CG. If you CGed them for a significant amount of time, you can often get away with some things that you may not have been able to do had it only been a single throw. Use the fact that they will for the most part be trying to jump out rather than n-airing or whatever to interrupt something that doesn't perfectly combo to your advantage.
If they DI the throw behind you it will limit your follow up options, but who cares? Continue to regrab them and force them into DIing it to go upwards.
Of course there is the obvious guaranteed u-air or b-air you can finish it with, but you usually can do better.
You can usually get a f-air in. It will combo the higher damage CGables if you shorthop and hit with the top part of it, and against the lower damage ones you can full jump it and have it hit when they go to jump. Might as well d-air in the latter situation though.
On the fast/semifast fallers you can get them with a f-smash as long as they don't come down too close to you after the throw, and haven't gone beyond the normal CGing % range from DIing behind you and extending it. If they are positioned decently and you time it right an upward angled f-smash is a true combo and inescapable. Almost always go for the up angled one when f-smashing as it does the most damage and has the most knockback of the 3 angles.
Against Sheik and Roy, at around 70-80 you can combo a crotch hit (tip of the d!ck as I and some others like to call it) of the first kick of the u-smash if they go any way but fully away, perfectly straight up, or far behind you. This particular hit of the u-smash is an incredibly powerful sideways sending attack and is a lot like a tipped Marth's f-smash, and it even has a bit more knockback at this damage range. If this part of it doesn't connect the other hit certainly will, which is still very nice. F-smash is another good finisher on these two if they are too far for an u-smash. F-smash can hit Sheik even if they DI fully behind due to their tumble animation, but must be timed well. Otherwise just regrab and wait for different DI to finish on.
Against Fox/Falco you can down-b them for the KO. You will be able to get them with it once they DI anywhere between no DI and DI away once they are past a minimum of ~80% (Falco) or ~85% (Fox). If they continue to DI behind everytime past that point you can continue the CG till around 100-110+% or so and f-tilt. Even if they switch up their DI immediately after being thrown to DI the tilt perfectly (uncommon since they would usually be trying to tech away in case you miss the grab), you'll generally be able to set up an easy edgeguard anyway. If they try to tech away when you f-tilt they will be easily KO'd. Also, don't forget that the down-b pulls back significantly, so it will hit them even if they go slightly behind you from the throw.
For the characters that end at too low of a % to lead to a possible KO or edgeguarding scenario after your attack, d-air is a one very good option. It is very unlikely that they will tech it in this situation, and if they don't go straight down from it they will most likely roll that way after hitting the ground. Full jump a d-air, and then follow them and either midair jump into another d-air, b/f-air, or land and chase with a foward-b. If they don't roll after landing and stand up or whatever after you went to midair jump over to where they would have rolled you can still often pull back and catch them with a f/b/u-air.
U-smash is another pretty good thing you can often land on the lower damage CGables.
Ways to Practice:
While using them against a real opponent will always be the best experience, you can still get pretty good practice from computers with the right settings. Plus, it's good to be familiar with the timing of the grabs before adding unpredicable DI into the mix. The main thing to practice the timing on is your JC grabs (plus standing turn around grabs for a few) at low damage when they DI behind you. The start of many of the CGs require very precise timing that takes some getting used to. Learning the timing for grabbing them at the highest point in the air as possible is another thing you can work on.
Although Evade in training mode is the best option for practicing a number of things when using computers, it isn't very good experience for Ganon's CG, as they will DI the d-throw away from the direction you grabbed them which isn't really what would need to work on. Then again, it's not bad (though not ideal) for practicing the timing of your grabs for the ends of the CGs where you have to grab the lowest parts of their bodies as possible to keep them from being able to jump out.
Rather than Evade, setting them to Attack works good here for learning the timing for catching them behind you. They will DI the throw fully behind you each time after the first.
As mentioned above, the ends of the CGs are something you may want to practice a bit. If you want to get the full range out of the CGs with escape damages (all but Fox/Falco really), it's important to learn how to grab the lowest part of their body with the highest part of your grab hitbox. One way you can practice this is to get a 2nd controller and either turn on the gamecube, plug it in, or reset the controller with the joystick slightly to the left or right. CG them in that direction so that they go perfectly straight up from the d-throw, which a human opponent would be doing to escape, and find the point where you grab them highest off the ground and try to do it as consistently as you can. Don't grab them when they are already in you grab range, rather they should be falling into the top of your grab area to get grabbed. Most characters will look as if they get grabbed when level with your head when you are doing it correctly.
With Fox and Falco however, it becomes as much or even more challenging to simply read their DI fast enough to be able to catch them than the timing part, which is also very difficult in its own right. These two take far more practice with real players, as well as more in the timing and technical aspects. You shouldn't really try to CG these 2 until you are pretty proficient with the others, and even then the required reaction speed may be too much to justify using over techchasing them out of the throws.
A Closer Look At CGing Fox & Falco:
**[12-31-06] I added a clip demonstrating a full CG on Falco. Look up top for the download links**
For the most aspiring CGers, I've put together a miniguide to CGing Fox and Falco, which are easily 2 of if not the 2 most difficult CGs in the game.
The percentage range is deceptively VERY good on them, but it's extremely difficult to react quick enough to their DI at lower damages. Ontop of that, the timing itself isn't very forgiving either. If you're fast enough however, it can be really effective. It's generally a bit easier to do on Falco at equal %s since he doesn't get to fall as much distance on very short knockbacks giving you a very tiny bit more time to react. The opposite is true on stronger vertical hits where Falco's faster top fall speed makes up for his slower fall acceleration distance wise.
Again, all percentages are BEFORE the throw damage, and the damage for the d-throw factored in here is 5 which it will be for the most part. Generally speaking, don't be lazy and dashgrab until a good 30-40 past when it can work since it's needlessly difficult to time on the low end. As stated earlier though it reaches further behind you than a JC grab, so it can sometimes grab them if they don't DI and you misread where they're going.
Like CGing the others, you should be on the lookout for them DIing behind you, as this has the strictest timing to catch them. However once standing grabs stop reaching in the front at around mid damage, being able to distinguish quickly between a near straight up knockback (slight DI away for example) and knockback away from you (full away DI) is far more important than it is for other characters. Unlike the others you must act quickly in this scenario as well as when they DI behind you if you wish to catch them, and choosing the wrong grab between standing and a JCed one will often result in a whiffed grab.
At each grabbing type threshold, you should try to utilize your grab hits during the grab to stay just below or get as far past them in damage, as these transitions are the most difficult to follow up with another grab at their breaking points.
For ways of ending and KOing them out of the CG, check out the 'Finishing the CG' section above.
* - Notes that you can do this at lower damage but they can DI behind to escape so it doesn't matter.
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Fox (34-250 aka Death)
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DI Away From You
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Standing Grab in Front (Don't bother past 65 or so. JC grab instead)
34*-82
JC Grab in Front (Will generally miss if they don't DI away. Dash grabs are a bit easier around 115)
34*-Death
Dash Grab in Front (Can sometimes catch neutral DI at lower damage)
38-Death
The Gist of It:
34-65 Standing Grab in Front
66-115 JC Grab in Front
116+ Dash Grab in Front
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DI Behind You
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Standing Turn Around Behind Grab (Start JC grabbing around 70)
34-77
JC Grab Behind (Dash grabs are a bit easier around 130)
54-Death
Dash Grab Behind
81-Death
The Gist of It:
34-70 Standing Turn Around Behind Grab
71-130 JC Grab Behind
131+ Dash Grab Behind
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Falco (12-250+ aka Death)
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DI Away From You
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Standing Grab in Front (Start JC grabbing around 40)
12*-55
JC Grab in Front (Can catch neutral DI pretty well until 55 or so. Dash grabs are a bit easier around 110)
12*-Death
Dash Grab in Front (Can catch neutral DI pretty well until 70 or so)
28-Death
The Gist of It:
12-40 Standing Grab in Front
41-110 JC Grab in Front
111+ Dash Grab in Front
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DI Behind You
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Standing Turn Around Behind Grab (Start JC grabbing around 65)
12-74
JC Grab Behind (Dash grabs are a bit easier around 125)
38-Death
Dash Grab Behind
73-Death
The Gist of It:
12-65 Standing Turn Around Behind Grab
66-125 JC Grab Behind
126+ Dash Grab Behind
Well, that's all folks. Hopefully you found it useful in some way. Questions, comments, suggestions, corrections?
Happy chaingrabbing! :bandit:
UPDATE! [ 12-31-06]
High quality example vids added of 0-Death CG on Falco
Downloads:
(The 1/4 speed one is good for seeing when/where JC grabs are used & the different knockbacks with DI)
(...Also the sound is pretty silly when slowed down
)1) 0-Death CG (Ganon vs Falco) (HQ) <-- Normal
2) 0-Death CG (Ganon vs Falco) (HQ) <-- Slo-Mo
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Introduction:
Welcome to my guide that focuses on chaingrabbing with Ganon's down throw, which is among the most extensive chaingrabs in the entire game. Though for the most part not quite as lengthy in duration and more challenging, Ganon's CG can be nearly as effective as Sheik's CG in NTSC (excluding their ability to get grabs in the first place), and can even be used on a broader range of characters. Not only that, but Ganon's CG requires far less area to effectively CG compared to Sheik's, as DIing Ganon's throws to try and end the CG at the edge of the stage will take far longer due to how it works.
Let's first get started with the list and then go from there. All of these are with the d-throw, and should be accurate to the exact percentage. Ness however could be off by maybe 1-3% due to his double jump and jump to airdodge alternative complicating things.
Chaingrabbable Characters:
Bowser --------- (4) ---- 0-72
Yoshi ------------ (2) ---- 0-36 (30+ make sure you grab his eyes before he spins around)
DK ---------------- (4) ---- 21-69
Ganon ---------- (3) ---- 0-67
Falco ------------- (5) --- 12-Death (250+)
Fox --------------- (5+) - 34-Death (250)
Ness ------------- (3) ---- 0-18 (Higher if they don't airdodge. Use dash grab for its duration)
Sheik ------------ (1) ---- 0-90 (80-90 is very tricky due to Sheik's skinny legs)
Link -------------- (3) ---- 0-74
Y Link ----------- (1) ---- 0-72 (Legs ftw)
Pichu ------------ (2) ---- 0-54 (Thank his bigass head for this one)
Pikachu --------- (1) ---- 0-37 (His tumble animation works very much in his favor to escape)
G&W ------------- (2) ---- 0-28
Marth ----------- (4) ---- 0-15
Roy -------------- (3) ---- 0-91 (Hooray legs!)
Reading the List:
The above list shows the ranges at which you can CG that character. The damages go by BEFORE the throw damage, and can thus vary by a couple % depending on how much your d-throw is doing. D-throw does 3-7 damage. It will be at least 5 as long as you hit them once during the grab. The ranges use 5 damage as the standard. The ones with a starting point after 0 will usually be possible 1-2% earlier since you'll just be starting it and the throw will most likely do 6-7 damage, but for consistency I kept the 5% standard to go along with everything else. Don't forget to take grab hits into account, and be sure to go by their damage AFTER those hits when deciding to end the CGs. Basically, if you are going to throw them and they are within the range listed you will be able to regrab them afterwards regardless of how they DI if you do it correctly.
The end of the range is based on the point at which they are able to DI slightly away (or anything else with equal result) to go perfectly straight up and then jump out before they are within regrabbing range. It's important that you grab peoples legs or whatever is closest to the ground at this point, as this is taken into account wherever applicable. Also bear in mind that if they continue to DI the throw in a way that results in them going anywhere but straight up, you will be able to regrab them beyond the numbers I have listed, particularly when they DI behind. Likewise, for the ones that don't begin at 0% you will be able to regrab them at lower damages than the starting number as well if they DI anywhere but behind you.
The 1st number after each name in parentheses is my general opinion of it's difficulty to do a good portion of the CGs range. They will obviously vary quite a bit from beginning to end, but it gives a pretty good idea. The scale is 1-5. 1 being the easiest whereas 5 is the most difficult. I gave Fox's a 5+ because I can't justify giving Falco's a 4, as his is insanely hard to do. Fox's is insanely hard and then some, and is by far the most difficult CG in the game imo.
For the most part, all of these are easiest in the middle/middle-later part of the said range, when reading their DI and timing your grabs is easier, but you still have a fair amount of leeway for timing a grab if they DI it to go straight up to try and jump out. They are generally toughest on the extremes of the ranges, albeit for different reasons.
Also, in Tipman's guide he states that you can CG Falcon, but I've found that not to be the case. Unless there's some secret way to grab him that I'm unaware of, they will escape at any % from the d-throw if they DI behind, and u-throw if they DI away. His weight and body size don't allow you catch him in time if they DI correctly. If I'm mistaken, feel free to correct me on this.
Getting to Know Ganon's Grabs & D-Throw:
(Frame data and unedited clips courtesy of Thomas Tipman and SuperDoodleMan)
--------------------------
Standing Grab
--------------------------
Hitbox Clip: Grab, 395kb
Grab: 7-8
--------------------------
Running Grab
--------------------------
Hitbox Clip: RunningGrab, 533kb
Grab: 11-13
Jump Canceled (JC) Grabbing:
JC grabbing is very important to Ganon's CG since it allows you do the faster standing grab while moving. It is done by hitting jump during a dash or run and then immediately grabbing during the startup of the jump before leaving the ground (6 frames aka 1/10 of a sec maximum in Ganon's case).
Getting the Most Out of Your JC Grabs:
While CGing, the fastest possible JC grab while gaining distance will get the hitbox out in 9 frames. To get the quickest JC grab, you must dash for 1 frame, jump on the next frame, and then grab on the frame after that. This is 3 frames faster than the fastest dash grab, which is 12 in total to come out (the minimum of 1 dash frame added to the dash grabs 11).
Additional frames between the dash and jump will have the JC grab come out at a farther distance. However, you ALWAYS want to grab 1 frame after the jump when you can, as hitting the grab after this will only cause the grab to come out later, and with no distance gained, thus wasting valuable time and could lead to their escape. If you dash an extra 3 frames than necessary to JC grab, it will come out at the same time as the shortest possible dash grab would, and the horizontal reach of of both grabs will be nearly identical on the first grab frame. However, the second grabbing frame of the JC grab will be farther than the dash grab due to sliding. I'll touch on that a bit more below.
Grabbing behind you will always take 1 additional frame, as a frame is used to do the turning around animation. Though it is only a tiny amount, the timing for a perfect JC grab is ever so slightly different behind you than when doing it in front. Get familiar with the tiny delay you must add between hitting the dash and jump. If you use the same timing as you would for the front when going for a grab behind you, you will simply turn around and JC grab with no movement which you don't want to do.
Standing, JCed, and Dash grabs each have their own specific ranges out of the d-throw that they can cover. You should get to know them well.
(Click the thumbnails to bring them up in full size)
|--Standing Grab Range--|------ JC Grab Range -----|---- Dash Grab Range ----|
|-- Standing+JC Range --|--Standing+Dash Range--|-All of the Above's Range-|
Understanding the Diagrams:
The larger colorcoded overlapping circles are the grab hitboxes of Ganon's various grabs on their 1st grabbing frame. JC and dash grabs display the ranges when they are done at their shortest possible startup times (and shortest distances), having 1 dash frame before starting the grab. How the range is affected by additional dash frames will be explained below.
The smaller yellow circle shows the location that they get sent from after the throw, and the yellow lines show the base directions they get sent depending on how they DI. Lower damages, faster falling speed, and lighter weight will cause these angles will bend and curve more downwards.
Though not entirely 100% exact, the black bars in the bottom right show the distances (use the actual width of the bars) that would shift the JCed and dash grab hitboxes from the shown locations. 'Dash Grab Shift' is the amount the hitboxes move over on each successive grabbing frame of the dash grab (dash grab has 3 grab frames total and thus moves over twice). 'JC Grab Shift' is the amount the hitboxes move for the second grabbing frame of a JC grab due to sliding (2 frames total so it shifts once). 'Dash Shift' shows the amount of distance added for each extra dash frame you add before JC or dash grabbing beyond the required 1 dash frame.
It's somewhat important to note that due to the hitboxes being overlapping circles, the grab range doesn't reach quite as high where they intersect and dips ever so slightly. This is something you should take into consideration when they are near escape percentages, and you should try to grab with the topmost parts of the hitboxes.
Notice how the standing grab gets very good stationary coverage nearby. Unlike someone such as Marth for example, there isn't a significant gap created between the front standing grab and turn around standing grabs. Pivoting a grab to get someone in this middle spot isn't necessary. If they come down near you, you will be able grab them by just facing whichever way would be better without needing to move. You should be aware of the slightly lower grab range here however for the timing of your grab. Although the dip here would make you grab them when they are closer to the ground, it is not enough for them to make use of it by DIing to this spot to try and jump out as the amount of height they lose from the angle of the knockback makes up for it. They would still be best off DIing to go straight upwards to escape.
Another thing you should notice is that dash grabs will grab closer inwards than JC grabs, which leave a rather large opening at the starting position. Though dash grabbing isn't really recommended for the most part as it is significantly slower, it can sometimes catch them where a JC grab would otherwise miss if you misread their DI thinking they are going foward and instead are sent a bit backwards.
Throwing Speeds:
(Thanks to 3GOD for the throw speed frame data)
The speed of the d-throw is based on the weight of the character being thrown. The heavier the character, the longer you must wait before you can try to regrab them. Though the weight gives a general idea of the overall pace of the CG and around when to go for a regrab, you should get familiar with Ganon's stance and appearance after a throw that you can first act. To see it, throw someone down while holding shield, and the moment the shield comes up is when you can 1st act. It's right around the time when he stands completely up all the way.
Ganon's position that he can go to grab again will always be the same, though the animation from the time you hit down to begin the throw and up until that point will be slowed down for heavy chars and sped up for lighter ones.
Soonest Actionable Frame After D-Throw (for Ganon):
Bowser ------------------- 47
DK -------------------------- 46
Ganon | Yoshi ----------- 44
Link ------------------------ 42
Ness ----------------------- 38
Sheik ---------------------- 37
Marth | Roy | Y Link --- 35
Falco | Pikachu ---------- 32
Fox -------------------------- 31
G&W ----------------------- 24
Pichu ---------------------- 23
60 frames = 1 second, so for Ganon & Yoshi, it's ~3/4 of a second after you hit down before you can go to grab them again, and ~1/2 a second for Fox.
These results were from version 1.0 of Smash, so they may vary with different versions. Also, just to explain a little more clearly, suppose you (Ganon of course!) grab Roy. The moment you press down on the control stick is frame 1. On frame 35, you can regrab, dash, jump, jab, etc.
The Application:
The Low End:
At the low ends of the CGs, the most important thing you should always be looking out for and anticipating them doing is DIing behind you. The combination of turning around eating a frame, farthest horizontal distance, and shortest amount of time for them to reach the ground due to lowest trajectory forces you to do a more complex action with less time to work with than any other DI. Players that are familiar with how Ganon's CG works will generally DI behind you more than anything at low damage as it is the easiest way for you to mess up and have them escape. Anything else at that point will be far easier to catch.
Most characters will not be able to be grabbed by turning around and doing a standing grab behind you if they DI behind you. Sheik (lower damages), Fox (mid/high), and Falco (mid) are among the few exceptions at certain ranges. You should JC grab to catch the others. If you aren't entirely certain that a standing grab will be able to catch them just do a JC grab.
You should also learn to distinguish partial away DI, which can be caught with a standing grab, from full DI away that will require a JC grab for the most part. Most allow you a bit more time to judge compared to behind DI, though with Fox & Falco you must be able to judge this very quickly.
The Later Parts:
On the high ends of the CG ranges your focus shifts away some from behind DI, which becomes a bit easier, and more towards when they DI away to go nearly or entirely straight up as they will jump out if you aren't careful.
After seeing them DI this way, pay very close attention to their character's location, fall speed, and tumble animation. If they are going anywhere between straight up to slightly away you will not be able to use a standing grab effectively, as it will be hitting too low if it does at all.
If you are CGing this far into the range be sure you are very familiar with the timing of Ganon's grab. You should have them 'fall' into your grab, so that they get grabbed at the earliest frame possible. The standing grab has 2 grabbing frames so this helps a bit. If you find timing the standing/JC grab this way is too difficult and you are often whiffing the grab or they are jumping out then you suck and need to practice more. LOL, just kidding, but the standing/JC grab is generally the best option and accurate timing should be learned for this situation.
Alternatively, you can take advantage of the dash grab's slightly longer duration of 3 frames to aid in having them fall into your grabbing range, but be aware that it grabs slightly lower than a standing grab, and the longer start up of the dash grab may negate the duration benefit by being a bit harder to time anyway.
You may find one grab type significantly easier for you personally though so go with what gives you the best results.
With the high damage CGs, dash grabs can sometimes be as good as JC grabs when they DI away or behind, and a few of them are easier or even required (Fox/Falco DIing behind at stupidly high damage) over JC grabs so bear that in mind.
Finishing the CG:
Depending on the character, you have a number of good options for finishing the CG. If you CGed them for a significant amount of time, you can often get away with some things that you may not have been able to do had it only been a single throw. Use the fact that they will for the most part be trying to jump out rather than n-airing or whatever to interrupt something that doesn't perfectly combo to your advantage.
If they DI the throw behind you it will limit your follow up options, but who cares? Continue to regrab them and force them into DIing it to go upwards.
Of course there is the obvious guaranteed u-air or b-air you can finish it with, but you usually can do better.
You can usually get a f-air in. It will combo the higher damage CGables if you shorthop and hit with the top part of it, and against the lower damage ones you can full jump it and have it hit when they go to jump. Might as well d-air in the latter situation though.
On the fast/semifast fallers you can get them with a f-smash as long as they don't come down too close to you after the throw, and haven't gone beyond the normal CGing % range from DIing behind you and extending it. If they are positioned decently and you time it right an upward angled f-smash is a true combo and inescapable. Almost always go for the up angled one when f-smashing as it does the most damage and has the most knockback of the 3 angles.
Against Sheik and Roy, at around 70-80 you can combo a crotch hit (tip of the d!ck as I and some others like to call it) of the first kick of the u-smash if they go any way but fully away, perfectly straight up, or far behind you. This particular hit of the u-smash is an incredibly powerful sideways sending attack and is a lot like a tipped Marth's f-smash, and it even has a bit more knockback at this damage range. If this part of it doesn't connect the other hit certainly will, which is still very nice. F-smash is another good finisher on these two if they are too far for an u-smash. F-smash can hit Sheik even if they DI fully behind due to their tumble animation, but must be timed well. Otherwise just regrab and wait for different DI to finish on.
Against Fox/Falco you can down-b them for the KO. You will be able to get them with it once they DI anywhere between no DI and DI away once they are past a minimum of ~80% (Falco) or ~85% (Fox). If they continue to DI behind everytime past that point you can continue the CG till around 100-110+% or so and f-tilt. Even if they switch up their DI immediately after being thrown to DI the tilt perfectly (uncommon since they would usually be trying to tech away in case you miss the grab), you'll generally be able to set up an easy edgeguard anyway. If they try to tech away when you f-tilt they will be easily KO'd. Also, don't forget that the down-b pulls back significantly, so it will hit them even if they go slightly behind you from the throw.
For the characters that end at too low of a % to lead to a possible KO or edgeguarding scenario after your attack, d-air is a one very good option. It is very unlikely that they will tech it in this situation, and if they don't go straight down from it they will most likely roll that way after hitting the ground. Full jump a d-air, and then follow them and either midair jump into another d-air, b/f-air, or land and chase with a foward-b. If they don't roll after landing and stand up or whatever after you went to midair jump over to where they would have rolled you can still often pull back and catch them with a f/b/u-air.
U-smash is another pretty good thing you can often land on the lower damage CGables.
Ways to Practice:
While using them against a real opponent will always be the best experience, you can still get pretty good practice from computers with the right settings. Plus, it's good to be familiar with the timing of the grabs before adding unpredicable DI into the mix. The main thing to practice the timing on is your JC grabs (plus standing turn around grabs for a few) at low damage when they DI behind you. The start of many of the CGs require very precise timing that takes some getting used to. Learning the timing for grabbing them at the highest point in the air as possible is another thing you can work on.
Although Evade in training mode is the best option for practicing a number of things when using computers, it isn't very good experience for Ganon's CG, as they will DI the d-throw away from the direction you grabbed them which isn't really what would need to work on. Then again, it's not bad (though not ideal) for practicing the timing of your grabs for the ends of the CGs where you have to grab the lowest parts of their bodies as possible to keep them from being able to jump out.
Rather than Evade, setting them to Attack works good here for learning the timing for catching them behind you. They will DI the throw fully behind you each time after the first.
As mentioned above, the ends of the CGs are something you may want to practice a bit. If you want to get the full range out of the CGs with escape damages (all but Fox/Falco really), it's important to learn how to grab the lowest part of their body with the highest part of your grab hitbox. One way you can practice this is to get a 2nd controller and either turn on the gamecube, plug it in, or reset the controller with the joystick slightly to the left or right. CG them in that direction so that they go perfectly straight up from the d-throw, which a human opponent would be doing to escape, and find the point where you grab them highest off the ground and try to do it as consistently as you can. Don't grab them when they are already in you grab range, rather they should be falling into the top of your grab area to get grabbed. Most characters will look as if they get grabbed when level with your head when you are doing it correctly.
With Fox and Falco however, it becomes as much or even more challenging to simply read their DI fast enough to be able to catch them than the timing part, which is also very difficult in its own right. These two take far more practice with real players, as well as more in the timing and technical aspects. You shouldn't really try to CG these 2 until you are pretty proficient with the others, and even then the required reaction speed may be too much to justify using over techchasing them out of the throws.
A Closer Look At CGing Fox & Falco:
**[12-31-06] I added a clip demonstrating a full CG on Falco. Look up top for the download links**
For the most aspiring CGers, I've put together a miniguide to CGing Fox and Falco, which are easily 2 of if not the 2 most difficult CGs in the game.
The percentage range is deceptively VERY good on them, but it's extremely difficult to react quick enough to their DI at lower damages. Ontop of that, the timing itself isn't very forgiving either. If you're fast enough however, it can be really effective. It's generally a bit easier to do on Falco at equal %s since he doesn't get to fall as much distance on very short knockbacks giving you a very tiny bit more time to react. The opposite is true on stronger vertical hits where Falco's faster top fall speed makes up for his slower fall acceleration distance wise.
Again, all percentages are BEFORE the throw damage, and the damage for the d-throw factored in here is 5 which it will be for the most part. Generally speaking, don't be lazy and dashgrab until a good 30-40 past when it can work since it's needlessly difficult to time on the low end. As stated earlier though it reaches further behind you than a JC grab, so it can sometimes grab them if they don't DI and you misread where they're going.
Like CGing the others, you should be on the lookout for them DIing behind you, as this has the strictest timing to catch them. However once standing grabs stop reaching in the front at around mid damage, being able to distinguish quickly between a near straight up knockback (slight DI away for example) and knockback away from you (full away DI) is far more important than it is for other characters. Unlike the others you must act quickly in this scenario as well as when they DI behind you if you wish to catch them, and choosing the wrong grab between standing and a JCed one will often result in a whiffed grab.
At each grabbing type threshold, you should try to utilize your grab hits during the grab to stay just below or get as far past them in damage, as these transitions are the most difficult to follow up with another grab at their breaking points.
For ways of ending and KOing them out of the CG, check out the 'Finishing the CG' section above.
* - Notes that you can do this at lower damage but they can DI behind to escape so it doesn't matter.
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Fox (34-250 aka Death)
-------------------------------------------
--------------------------
DI Away From You
--------------------------
Standing Grab in Front (Don't bother past 65 or so. JC grab instead)
34*-82
JC Grab in Front (Will generally miss if they don't DI away. Dash grabs are a bit easier around 115)
34*-Death
Dash Grab in Front (Can sometimes catch neutral DI at lower damage)
38-Death
The Gist of It:
34-65 Standing Grab in Front
66-115 JC Grab in Front
116+ Dash Grab in Front
--------------------------
DI Behind You
--------------------------
Standing Turn Around Behind Grab (Start JC grabbing around 70)
34-77
JC Grab Behind (Dash grabs are a bit easier around 130)
54-Death
Dash Grab Behind
81-Death
The Gist of It:
34-70 Standing Turn Around Behind Grab
71-130 JC Grab Behind
131+ Dash Grab Behind
-------------------------------------------
Falco (12-250+ aka Death)
-------------------------------------------
--------------------------
DI Away From You
--------------------------
Standing Grab in Front (Start JC grabbing around 40)
12*-55
JC Grab in Front (Can catch neutral DI pretty well until 55 or so. Dash grabs are a bit easier around 110)
12*-Death
Dash Grab in Front (Can catch neutral DI pretty well until 70 or so)
28-Death
The Gist of It:
12-40 Standing Grab in Front
41-110 JC Grab in Front
111+ Dash Grab in Front
--------------------------
DI Behind You
--------------------------
Standing Turn Around Behind Grab (Start JC grabbing around 65)
12-74
JC Grab Behind (Dash grabs are a bit easier around 125)
38-Death
Dash Grab Behind
73-Death
The Gist of It:
12-65 Standing Turn Around Behind Grab
66-125 JC Grab Behind
126+ Dash Grab Behind
Well, that's all folks. Hopefully you found it useful in some way. Questions, comments, suggestions, corrections?
Happy chaingrabbing! :bandit:
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