The Full Smash 64 Learning Curve (MASSIVE UPDATES)

[Daedatheus]

I think Isai should drop by here and give a short paragraph or so describing exactly what he believes puts him head and shoulders above (almost, if not all) the competition. It may just be a repeat of the "Don't get Hit" phase, just with the player executing the principles better.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I think Isai should drop by here and give a short paragraph or so describing exactly what he believes puts him head and shoulders above (almost, if not all) the competition. It may just be a repeat of the "Don't get Hit" phase, just with the player executing the principles better.

Ill give you one hint

1999

 

[Superstar]

Is that the number of hours playing 64?

I think Isai uses hax controller that is set to auto ****. He also types with it, which is why his spelling is off.

 

[S8on95]

I am stuck as a scrub. Any advice on how to get past this stage. I'm trying to play without grabs, but thats not much help. Is it possible to short hop on an emulator? By the way in this discussiong of Isai, Isai is the tier list. he made every character who they are.

 

[Superstar]

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw - If you want the whole book. Better but longer.

C to shorthop on emulator.

 

[flyingMouse]

only been playing emulator and i use button jump to short hop(or C button w/e u wana call it). I havent played the n64 for way too long so i dont remember, but was it possible to short hop on n64 using tap jump? If so, then there is a major flaw in emulator.

if u can only short hop using button jump, once u make an up aerial during your short hop u will ultimately lose your second jump since u must press up+A which eliminates many possible combos that you could have done. on the other hand, if you use tap jump to jump, press up will perform a jump and holding the up button will allow u to perform up aerial without losing second jump.

i've always had this problem (tap jump = second jump and up aerials but no short hop, button jump = short hops but no second jump upon up aerial). i've thot abt using both depending on situation, but i want to avoid that since i'd have to focus on 1 extra button which will slow me down since 1 extra thought process will go thru my subconcious/mind/decision making/w/e u call it.

 

[MattNF]

playing to win is stupid

 

[Superstar]

Not tap jump, you have to hold it slightly up to shorthop. Obviously not possible on keyboard unless you want to prevent smashes on keyboard, or use a mod [I find it hard to smash w/ NRage].

playing to win is stupid

But whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhy.

 

[flyingMouse]

huh? im not playing to win. i just want to attain the highest possible performance

 

[flyingMouse]

playing to win is stupid

according to wht ur saying, i assume short hops using the stick is possible, okay ic. i play on emulator using a wireless usb controller, and tilt moves dont work (no matter how lightly i press back or forward, character just runs, cant walk) unless i have the button pressed previously (ie. kirby aerial down drill, while the drill is in progress, hold on to UP n then after drilling has finished, start mashing A to perform tilt up A)

sorry i meant to quote Superstar

 

[Tigerb0mbz]

is there a level where u scan me with ur dbz scouter and that shiet blows up cuz i think im there...no lie true story

 

[Surri-Sama]

according to wht ur saying, i assume short hops using the stick is possible, okay ic. i play on emulator using a wireless usb controller, and tilt moves dont work (no matter how lightly i press back or forward, character just runs, cant walk) unless i have the button pressed previously (ie. kirby aerial down drill, while the drill is in progress, hold on to UP n then after drilling has finished, start mashing A to perform tilt up A)

sorry i meant to quote Superstar

You can edit your posts with the magic edit button!

and once you learn to buffer attacks its not really to bad..

more annoying then anything else..yay D-pad >_<

 

[CbGreiga]

I've been playing on an emulator for a while so I've realized a few things about using keyboards:

1. No short hopping. The best you can do is the DJC
2. To smash, hit the direction and the attack key at the same time
3. To tilt, the attack has to be done immediately after the movement key is released

 

[Surri-Sama]

I've been playing on an emulator for a while so I've realized a few things about using keyboards:

1. No short hopping. The best you can do is the DJC
2. To smash, hit the direction and the attack key at the same time
3. To tilt, the attack has to be done immediately after the movement key is released

you can short hop and again...BUFFER YOUR TILTS!

get used to it or by an analog contoller =.=

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I've been playing on an emulator for a while so I've realized a few things about using keyboards:

1. No short hopping. The best you can do is the DJC
2. To smash, hit the direction and the attack key at the same time
3. To tilt, the attack has to be done immediately after the movement key is released

what, you can short hop with the keyboard, look at Nephiros's combo videos, he uses keyboard

 

[CbGreiga]

How then? I've been trying for months with no luck

 

[NixxxoN]

press the direction button very quickly

 

[Surri-Sama]

i get mixed messages when it comes to SH with KB

Some where i read that the smaller keys are better for SH
ON the other hand ive seen people say Spacebar is best.

O_o

 

[Superstar]

Remember X and Y buttons for Melee? C Buttons are the equivalent. Set a button to C, press it fast. Small button next to A and Z is the best.

huh? im not playing to win. i just want to attain the highest possible performance

That's a contradiction. :3 Now playing to win is not necessary as you wish to improve, but once you do improve, or when it comes time to get your best performace, you do need to play to win.

 

[_kSo_]

Valoem, your guide is top tier lulz

I approve of the updates

 

[Daedatheus]

according to wht ur saying, i assume short hops using the stick is possible, okay ic.

Don't short hop using the joystick. Use the c buttons. Map a C button (they all do the same thing in smash64) to a button on your controller and use that to jump. It will make EVERYTHING in your game easier than if you used stick jumping instead.

 

[Lovage]

on keyboard you can't short hop with the "up analog" key, you can short hop with a "C button" key
keyboard makes it easier to DI
you are forced to buffer tilts
you are forced to buffer walks

 

[Tamoo]

yup, tht sums it up, its quite annoying but you get used to it eventually i guess, started trying to play with a controller recently but gave up immediately cos it just feels unnatural

 

[Surri-Sama]

yup, tht sums it up, its quite annoying but you get used to it eventually i guess, started trying to play with a controller recently but gave up immediately cos it just feels unnatural

it is true

i use Dpad on a ps3 controller which also requires buffered tilts and falling through the platform with a Uair is kinda tricky...

But you can work around it

 

[flyingMouse]

superstar, its not a contradiction. i'd rather play at my best performance against isai and get destroyed than to play at low performance with various constraints and **** a beginner. honestly i dont see anything wrong abt a strong will to get better at something.

Daedatheus, i know c button can short hop and i use it all the time, but the draw back to that is if i perform up aerial during my short hop i will lose my second jump since Up+A must be pressed (the up button triggering my second jump). im just looking for a solution where i can short hop and perform up aerials without losing a second jump using the same button. too bad this is not brawl sigh...

Sirhc said something abt buffering which i have no idea what it is, ima do some research on it thx for the info

(note: i dont know how to quote more than 1 person lol)

 

[Superstar]

It...is a contradiction. Playing to win means playing with no constraints. It means if your opponent is in the tornado and he's going to die, then let him die. If your opponent makes himself wide open to a grab, grab him and kill him. Choosing to not play to win is actually choosing to NOT play at your best possible performance. Sure, it means your not getting the practice in from fooling around, but for something like a tournament match, or anything with any weight, dooooooo it.

So, when you say you don't play to win, and want to attain best performance...that's a contradiction.

EDIT: Multiquote, or Copy paste.

 

[Daedatheus]

Daedatheus, i know c button can short hop and i use it all the time, but the draw back to that is if i perform up aerial during my short hop i will lose my second jump since Up+A must be pressed (the up button triggering my second jump).

True. I'm guessing you don't have a controller with a joystick. I would really recommend one, but if you can't get one, you'll have to work around by buffering...

Sirhc said something abt buffering which i have no idea what it is, ima do some research on it thx for the info

No need to research. All he means by "buffering" is inputting the direction before you need to do that action, during another attack or action.

Say you want to do a downair to an uptilt with Fox. Since pressing up after doing the Dair would make you jump, you press up DURING the dair when no commands affect your character. Then as soon as the Dair is done you can press A to utilt since your direction is already "buffered" for up. With a joystick this issue is nonexistent since you can either buffer the directions or tilt at the moment you do a move.

 

[AvengerAngel]

Superstar, playing to win is just DUMB.

Why the hell should I pick Kirby and Pikachu vs. Link and pick Dream Land or Peach Castle to throw him out of the stage and edge guard him easily? Really, wtf are you thinking? Where's the fun and what on earth do you earn by winning a friendly SSB match? I'll tell you what: NOTHING AT ALL. So just avoid being dumb or "cheap" and play for fun. Really, I face lots of nubs that can only use Uair combos with Falcon or throw Link out of the stage even at 40% to gimp him easily. What's the point in playing this way? Really, do you think you're better than your opponent if you manage to beat him by one stock cheap killing his low/bottom tier chars in a FRIENDLY match?
That's just why I have more fun playing with americans (even with 8 frames of delay) than with europeans. Lots of european players keep on picking the same top tier chars and just spam like hell projectiles and the same stupid moves (Pika/Kirby/Ness Utilts, Falcon's grab and Uairs etc.) and that's not funny at all. Playing to win != playing at your best. I can try my best to pull off awesome and original combos and still don't give a **** about who wins the match :|

 

[Superstar]

Superstar, playing to win is just DUMB.

Why the hell should I pick Kirby and Pikachu vs. Link and pick Dream Land or Peach Castle to throw him out of the stage and edge guard him easily? Really, wtf are you thinking? Where's the fun and what on earth do you earn by winning a friendly SSB match? I'll tell you what: NOTHING AT ALL. So just avoid being dumb or "cheap" and play for fun. Really, I face lots of nubs that can only use Uair combos with Falcon or throw Link out of the stage even at 40% to gimp him easily. What's the point in playing this way? Really, do you think you're better than your opponent if you manage to beat him by one stock cheap killing his low/bottom tier chars in a FRIENDLY match?
That's just why I have more fun playing with americans (even with 8 frames of delay) than with europeans. Lots of european players keep on picking the same top tier chars and just spam like hell projectiles and the same stupid moves (Pika/Kirby/Ness Utilts, Falcon's grab and Uairs etc.) and that's not funny at all. Playing to win != playing at your best. I can try my best to pull off awesome and original combos and still don't give a **** about who wins the match :|

I...use Mario. I use Pikachu only sometimes, I only use Kirby for the lulz. Starting to use Link more, because I find it fun.

I play to win, cause it's fun. If my opponent messes up, **** right I'm going to grab them, throw them off, and fireball to rack up damage. Once they get into certain ranges, I proceed to combo [because it does more damage than throwing off the edge, and it's flashy to boot]. I spend much time in training mode learning combos to use midmatch.

Also, cheap is a scrub word. :3 This isn't Brawl, playing to win is not as unfun in SSB64 as in Brawl, because SSB64 is a better game. If playing to win is boring, then it's a bad game or at least bad for you, end of story. If edgegimping only was so broken as you say that it's playing to win, then SSB64 is a bad game. End of story.

Also, just throwing people off the stage and gimp killing them isn't playing to win...it's just sucking. I still go for combos and the like. I tend to try going for gimp kills more often though, because, well, that's what Mario does. His combos don't begin to solidify until slightly higher percents. In fact, trying to combo TOO EARLY can get you killed.

Also, making all these assumptions about the way I play is pretty, yeesh.

Playing to win != playing at your best

wat

The winner is not the fancier, its the more efficient. And as what I see, the consistent winner is considered better. So, your math sucks.

And I freely admitted that to learn, it's good NOT to play to win, because then you don't get to fool around with new possibly better stuff. I'm talking about tournament matches, or just matches where you have some matter.

Edit: I think you misinterpret what I mean by "Play to win". Grabbing when someone messes up is not the same as only grabbing. Earlier is smart play, latter will get you killed.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Superstar, playing to win is just DUMB.

Why the hell should I pick Kirby and Pikachu vs. Link and pick Dream Land or Peach Castle to throw him out of the stage and edge guard him easily? Really, wtf are you thinking? Where's the fun and what on earth do you earn by winning a friendly SSB match? I'll tell you what: NOTHING AT ALL. So just avoid being dumb or "cheap" and play for fun. Really, I face lots of nubs that can only use Uair combos with Falcon or throw Link out of the stage even at 40% to gimp him easily. What's the point in playing this way? Really, do you think you're better than your opponent if you manage to beat him by one stock cheap killing his low/bottom tier chars in a FRIENDLY match?
That's just why I have more fun playing with americans (even with 8 frames of delay) than with europeans. Lots of european players keep on picking the same top tier chars and just spam like hell projectiles and the same stupid moves (Pika/Kirby/Ness Utilts, Falcon's grab and Uairs etc.) and that's not funny at all. Playing to win != playing at your best. I can try my best to pull off awesome and original combos and still don't give a **** about who wins the match :|

your rant forgets one thing, the link doesnt walk up to pikachu and say throw me...that link should be playing to win too >_>

This is slowly turning into a casual vs competitive smasher thing CRAIIGG!!..jk...we should stop it thought...its stupid and pointless, we all play games for different reasons...simple

 

[Superstar]

Lol, I forgets. Boomerang and all that fun stuff.

Yes, I agree. I will say though, when I have to choose between combo or grab, I choose combo most of the time unless grab kills.

I am the last level cuz I says so.

 

[D.Q]

Level 6 [Don't get hit]:
Going from level 5 to 6 is by far the hardest phase. To put it simply this is the phase when you can completely out space and prioritize Level 5 players. Even perfect comboing is nowhere near enough to master the game. This level is all about spacing and knowing excatly what the most critical hit is. With DI combos are harder to perform and the game expands to new possibilities. By now you already discovered most combos (including the most difficult situational combos i.e. wall combos) AND how to perform them consistantly, but now you are also very difficult to hit and can normally hit level 5 opponents before they can hit you. Also you can gimp opponents in most scenarios where it is possible. You have to know how to lure the other player in such as throwing missed hit next to them and knowing that they are just out of your reach. This level (like all levels) requires a new level of mind games. You have to know where the opponent is going before they do and you have to space it so if they trick you they will have maximum difficulty hitting you.

THAT IS POINTLESS AGAINST MY LASERS
PEW PEW PEW I RAISE MY TENT AGAINST THE HEAVENS THAT OPPOSE ME
Camping>All

 

[flyingMouse]

ok i know this is getting repetitive and meaningless lol, but for the last time it is not a contradiction.

short hopping was possible in the original n64 using the control stick, i want to be able to experience everything the original game has to offer.

best performance is for the self satisfaction that u were able to play without constraints in terms of controls (of course, game rules don't count as constraints in this case), and whether u win or lose afterwards is totally irrelevant. i seriously don't know how u got from "wanting to short hop without using c button" (a general discussion/inquiry about game mechanics and control) to "you want to play to win? your stupid" (a philosophy on gaming). even tho there is nothing wrong with playing to win, it doesn't change the fact that you miraculously got from 1 topic to another. there seems to be some sort of defect in your logic and reasoning -_-

 

[Superstar]

What defect? The whole definition of playing to win to is to play without constraints.

superstar, its not a contradiction. i'd rather play at my best performance against isai and get destroyed than to play at low performance with various constraints and **** a beginner. honestly i dont see anything wrong abt a strong will to get better at something.

The way you worded it implies your saying that's playing to win, which is the opposite of it's definition. That, is a contradiction.

ALso:

huh? im not playing to win. i just want to attain the highest possible performance

It depends on what is defined by performance, but by the usual definition of "winning tournaments", that would be a contradiction, unless you mean another definition. Pay more attention to the above quote. XD

Also, I was speaking to S8on95 originally, not you. With you I only pointed out a logic flow.

I am stuck as a scrub. Any advice on how to get past this stage. I'm trying to play without grabs, but thats not much help. Is it possible to short hop on an emulator? By the way in this discussiong of Isai, Isai is the tier list. he made every character who they are.

He said he's trying to play without grabs, which is constraining himself, which is not playing to win, and he said he's stuck as a scrub. So I thought it was funny and linked to it. I was not speaking to you.

And yes it's getting meaningless. Topic shifted drastically because you thought I was talking to you originally.

EDIT: BLARGh. I'm late level 5A, according to this. I can not always combo, but I'm getting there. I can sometimes combo, sometimes to death, sometimes I only get a 2 hit attack string [usually a failed combo, where I forget to play to win and went for something I shouldn't, or I just messed up]. I can 3-4 stock level 3 peeps. :3 Or, was it level 4 peeps I fight...dunno, they know about Z-Cancel and are trying. EDIT2: Lvl 4, yeah. And yes, I know you shouldn't live by these lists, just some vain attempt to start getting back on topic.

 

[flyingMouse]

ok i know this is getting repetitive and meaningless lol, but for the last time it is not a contradiction.

short hopping was possible in the original n64 using the control stick, i want to be able to experience everything the original game has to offer.

best performance is for the self satisfaction that u were able to play without constraints in terms of controls (of course, game rules don't count as constraints in this case), and whether u win or lose afterwards is totally irrelevant. i seriously don't know how u got from "wanting to short hop without using c button" (a general discussion/inquiry about game mechanics and control) to "you want to play to win? your stupid" (a philosophy on gaming). even tho there is nothing wrong with playing to win, it doesn't change the fact that you miraculously got from 1 topic to another. there seems to be some sort of defect in your logic and reasoning -_-

 

[Superstar]

^^^ I lold.

Epic trollz? Or tl;dr on mine, where you didn't read I wasn't originally talking to you? :3

 

[MattNF]

short hopping was possible in the original n64 using the control stick, i want to be able to experience everything the original game has to offer.

You can't short hop with the control stick.

 

[Daedatheus]

^^^ I lold.

Epic trollz? Or tl;dr on mine, where you didn't read I wasn't originally talking to you? :3

No... accidental double post it seems

You can't short hop with the control stick.

Indeed, just tested this on console. You can get VERY close to short-hopping, but the only way to do your character's shortest jump is with a c-button.

 

[flyingMouse]

hmm...thats odd, i've seen videos of isai performing an Up aerial during a short hop without losing his second jump, hows that possible then? assuming his short hop was done using a c button

example (focus on 1:27 - 1:30):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSRCXAb7XLo

 

[flyingMouse]

nvm lol, just realized if u do up aerial within a certain amount of time after the initial jump, the up button wont count as a jump