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The Forest Master Rises! Sceptile for Smash Bros! Over 100 supporters!!!

Hot Uncle Sparky

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They are moves, blaziken easily has a lot of moveset potential left, that's why I think that he would get over sceptile
I would venture to say Sceptile has just as much potential as Blaziken if not more, looking at the learnsets. I don't do very extensive research on mega evolution due to how little I care about it, but I know Dragon typing just might help Sceptile even more.

I'm not holding my breath for either of them anyway.
 
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ultimatekoopa

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I would venture to say Sceptile has just as much potential as Blaziken if not more, looking at the learnsets. I don't do very extensive research on mega evolution due to how little I care about it, but I know Dragon typing just might help Sceptile even more.

I'm not holding my breath for either of them anyway.
Blaziken and Sceptile both has a moveset potential, but Blaziken has the edge over sceptile in the rest, that's what I think anyway
 

Cpt.

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Blaziken and Sceptile both has a moveset potential, but Blaziken has the edge over sceptile in the rest, that's what I think anyway
Two fire starters and no grass starter......?

Tell me again about how you think that Blaziken has an edge over Sceptile.

Edit: can't post anymore 777 posts..... I guess i'll go make a new account
 
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ultimatekoopa

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Two fire starters and no grass starter......?

Tell me again about how you think that Blaziken has an edge over Sceptile.

Edit: can't post anymore 777 posts..... I guess i'll go make a new account
We got 2 electric types in melee, also charizard and greninja weren't pick because of their types
Blaziken has an edge as he is more popular, which is one of the main factors of choosing the pkmn reps in smash bros
 

Cpt.

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We got 2 electric types in melee, also charizard and greninja weren't pick because of their types
Blaziken has an edge as he is more popular, which is one of the main factors of choosing the pkmn reps in smash bros
Haha we got two Pikachus in Melee because Sakurai didn't have enough time. Plus Pichu shouldn't be compared to starter pokemon. Lastly, my pal Greninja was not the most popular choice for a pokemon rep.
 
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ultimatekoopa

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Haha we got two Pikachus in Melee because Sakurai didn't have enough time. Plus Pichu shouldn't be compared to starter pokemon. Lastly, my pal Greninja was not the most popular choice for a pokemon rep.
Because he was picked back in 2012, pokemon x and y weren't even announced by that time and therefore, was impossible to choose a pkmn based on his popularity, this, however isn't the same with sceptile and blaziken as both of them are already known and blaziken has proved to be more popular than sceptile
 
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Cpt.

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Because he was picked back in 2012, pokemon x and y weren't even announced by that time and therefore, was impossible to choose a pkmn based on his popularity, this, however isn't the same with sceptile and blaziken as both of them are already known and blaziken has proved to be more popular than sceptile
Well if they go by popularity then they would have chosen one of the first stages of the starters since they were the first gen 6 pokes revealed. Or they would have chosen Mewtwo since he was the first Mega revealed. It is because they chose Greninja instead of either of those that show that don't care as much about popularity than you seem to think they do.
 
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ultimatekoopa

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Well if they go by popularity then they would have chosen one of the first stages of the starters since they were the first gen 6 pokes revealed. Or they would have chosen Mewtwo since he was the first Mega revealed. It is because they chose Greninja instead of either of those that show that don't care as much about popularity than you seem to think they do.
Like I said before, Greninja was picked before X and Y was announced, and no, being revealed first=/= being more popular, by that logic, Caterpie would be more popular than Lucario and we all know he isn't, Mewtwo will probably return, Why did they picked Lucario? Because he was popular, Why did they picked puff back in the original one? Because she was popular, PKMN reps are chosen differently than the rest of the franchises, they are picked based on their popularity
 

Jmacz

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Blaziken is also redundant with Lucario, I know we've had Pichu and Pikachu. But I doubt they want someone who shares typing with two other characters, I could see you arguing Mewtwo but you can't say for sure Blaziken is more popular. Sceptile is one of only two grass starters that are for the most part universally liked (Venusuar and Sceptile obviously). Sceptile is considered by a lot the Grass starter with the best design, where as Blaziken is at best third behind Charizard and Infernape, I'm sure some even like Typhlosion more. I've never understood the notion that Blaziken is popular, I've always seen many make fun of the fact that he is an oversized Chicken, and that he for some reason has beautiful straight long blonde hair like some sort of rock star.
 

Masonomace

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So what do u think about Mega sceptile?
Exept looking badass?
Grass/Dragon = Badass dual Type
Mega Sceptile visually looks like he can use Razor Leaf! (Lol razor leaf ears). He just looks like He should have more Grass/Dragon move-pool. And I stopped playing PKMN hand-helds after Emerald Gen. III version but I try to keep up on some things. Treecko had a chance to learn dragonbreath as an egg move in Gen. III. As early as Gen. III without adding in more moves, that's a great chance for Mega Sceptile in Sm4sh to have a completely different move-set with stronger Grass moves and Dragon move-set to boot.

I don't want to troll or being a jerk but if Sakurai puts the most popular pkmn in the game, then the ruby and saphire rep (if we get one, i'm sure mewtwo and sadly puff would get over any of them) it would go for blaziken, I just want to debate about that
Definitly would agree at the time to put Blaziken in Sm4sh over Sceptile. But now.....Idk man Sceptile's popularity just sky-rocketted. He's the ultimate Anti-Electric counter with Dragon type added in with an AWESOME visual look. That's not a good stated argument but as an elemental statement, Fire is something we see often in Sm4sh attacks.
Can you prove that more people will pick treecko over sceptile?
Definitely can prove Sceptile will be chosen over treecko. That is obvious =P but that wasn't your main point so apologies for my picky sentence in your quote.
 

Sonic Poke

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He wouldn't be a captain falcon, he would easily be unique
¬¬'
We know both Sceptile and Blaziken don't have the moveset potential to be unique. But between these two, we all know Sceptile would play more unique.
Look at body shape. Blaziken can easily take C. Falcon and Fox neutrals. To the specials, transform Falcon Punch into Fire Punch, Falcon Kick into Blaze Kick, Falcon Dive into Sky Uppercut, then, with the side special, just pick Charizard's Flare Blitz, put in it a white glow and rename to Brave Bird. Simple and boring.
Now look to Sceptile's body. It cannot take neutrals from any one because of the tail spam. The specials would be totally unique due to be plant based.

But Swampert of course would be the more unique Hoen starter in smash.
 

Masonomace

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Completely agreeable Sonic Poke. I approve Sceptile > Blaziken for all the similar reasons explained. But I'm still sticking with my elemental statement since C. Falcon is pretty much Blaziken and the big thing with Sm4sh right now is removing transformations in mid-fight such as Zelda-Sheik and PT's switch out between the 3 brawl PKMN :squirtle:, :ivysaur:, and :charizard:. By this I'm sure clones as a problem we dealt with since Melee may be removed as well. We don't really want any clone-like features for this next smash game :\.
 

ultimatekoopa

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¬¬'
We know both Sceptile and Blaziken don't have the moveset potential to be unique. But between these two, we all know Sceptile would play more unique.
Look at body shape. Blaziken can easily take C. Falcon and Fox neutrals. To the specials, transform Falcon Punch into Fire Punch, Falcon Kick into Blaze Kick, Falcon Dive into Sky Uppercut, then, with the side special, just pick Charizard's Flare Blitz, put in it a white glow and rename to Brave Bird. Simple and boring.
Now look to Sceptile's body. It cannot take neutrals from any one because of the tail spam. The specials would be totally unique due to be plant based.

But Swampert of course would be the more unique Hoen starter in smash.
First of all, You think the man that made a moveset to WFT, Villager, Captain Falcon and Ice Climbers can't make a unique moveset? he made one from greninja without any information about him, I just made one in 1 minute, just because you haven't tried to make one doesn't mean that it can't have one, that logic doesn't apply with sakurai, just one question, Can you prove he would be a captain falcon clone?
 
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pupNapoleon

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I'll catch up on this thread at some point. For a while it read lie was back on other forums. Blaziken... haha. Yeah, that's charming. Sakurai could make my toe a playable character, but his knowledge of pokemon is futile, he makes them fight as if he has never played the games and only seen the anime, and that is just one more reason blaziken would not be in over sceptile. It just doesnt look balanced to any outside eye. Save Blaziken for Pokken Fighters. Even fans of blaziken would say it looks distressingly unbalanced.

As for my opinion:

My dream pokemon representation (for balance, not for who I want, as I loved squirtle):

1- Pikachu
2- Charizard
3- Sceptile
4- Greninja
5- Lucario (Movie Rep/ Pseudo Mascot)
6- Mewtwo (Best Legendary)
7- Trainer (Pokeball gimmick, HM tools)
8- Ranger (Eeveelution Puppet)
 

Reality_Ciak

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Alright let's run through this. My understanding:

Jigglypuff: Last second addition since day one. In Smash 64, Jigglypuff took the slot that both Mewtwo and Meowth were planned to have at one point or another. She was a Kirby clone aside from special moves. In Melee, perhaps she had return value, and was made over powered. In Brawl, Jigglypuff was apparently going to be cut, but we all know Mewtwo didn't make it, and Jigglypuff being so easy to make, made the return. Seems to be a quick fix rep. Does have fairy now, though. Likely to return again, yet probably the only expendable original character aside from maybe Ness somehow being overtaken by Lucas.

Mewtwo: He is a clone, but not of Lucario. One of the most requested to make an appearance in Smash 4, was originally planned for 64, was one of the most hype newcomers in Melee (albeit he kinda sucked), was tragically cut from Brawl's roster even though he was planned to return. Characters that didn't make a cut due to time restraints wouldn't be completely forgotten the next time around, and I would think they would get special consideration. (Meowth's fate being ultimately sealed when Jiggs got priority in Melee) With Sakurai's comment at last year's E3 "we're thinking about it!" combined with his comments at this year's E3 revolving around Greninja stating that the characters were decided at the beginning of the games' development, I have two conclusions. Either Mewtwo was already on the roster when he said they were thinking about it, or Greninja ultimately beat him for the slot.

Meowth: Team Rocket. The second most reoccurring "mascot" of Pokemon (at least in the anime) to Pikachu. As stated before, was supposed to be in Smash 64, lost out to Jiggs, again in Melee, and after that it was over. :(

Deoxys: v
Darkrai: Pokeball Pokemon (confirmed or at least in Greninja reveal)
Zoroark: ^

Victini: ? I never understood that bandwagon.

Squirtle/Ivysaur: Could return, probably would have been revealed along side Charizard, Greninja probably replaced Squirtle as the water starter (which boosts Mewtwo's chances mentioned above) and that leaves Ivy in an awkward position also likely to be replaced (boosting the chances of a new top form grass starter)

Pichu: only chance of return would be a costume swap, not very likely

Plusle&Minun: could serve as promotion for OR/AS, doubt we will have type overlap (outside of megas) though. Pichu being the only ever offender, and was also a clone.

Sceptile: Could complete the trio and replace Ivysaur. Can create an intermediate bewteen fast weak Greninja and slow strong Charizard. Has a new mega form. Can promote OR/AS. Can dual blade (actually has 4) without losing the ability to hold items, a unique treat arguably only shared with Pit. True underdog; grass is rarely the most popular starter but still has a large fan base, Sceptile is perhaps the least popular of his generation yet is one of the most popular grass starters. He does has unique moveset potential that would hold true to his signature moves, not just his competitive use moves. No Smash Pokemon, to my knowledge, has ever had a moveset based on how they are used in Pokemon competitively. Does not immediately lend himself to being a clone of an existing character. Seems increasingly likely. Smart move for advertising OR/AS. Smart move for fan pleasing (by not giving a middle finger to the grass fans by not having a grass starter). Represents an unrepresented generation, 3, the other being 5.

Meganium: Gen 2 had Pichu, awkward (but would be cool) as a fighter
Torterra: Gen 4 has Lucario, very awkward as a fighter
Chesnaught: Gen 6 has Greninja, Lucario is a fighting type, otherwise no problems I guess
Serperior: Snivy Pokeball, otherwise interesting choice with huge potential

Blaziken: Perhaps one of the most popular Pokemon on the Pokemon competitive scene. Signature moves differ from competitive moves, Smash hasn't been known to give them moves outside of what they learn from leveling up or used in the anime frequently. Moves like Sky Uppercut, Fire Punch, Blaze Kick, and, let's say Brave Bird/ Flare Blitz lend themselves to Captain Falcon's moveset and play style. Yes, they are very capable of creating a unique moveset, but the obvious answer is "Captain Falcon." Look at Ganondorf, who isn't so obviously a clone of Falcon, but they did it, because it was easy. Why would they spend time painstakingly taking a character with obvious potential, a character who would be a second fire type, a character who is wildly overrated, and try to make a unique moveset when they could spend their time on other characters that would easily diversify the roster and better represent their respective franchise? Yes, Sakurai did make unique movesets for WFT, Villager, Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Pacman, G&W... do you know what those characters have in common? They aren't innate fighters. They don't have obvious moveset potential. They are unique in the right that they are sole representations in their franchises and do not play like anyone else. Blaziken has potential to be a fine at addition to the roster, it would rep 3rd gen and the new games, but it wouldn't do Pokemon justice. And it likely wouldn't do Blaziken justice. It would show favoritism to fire types. That would piss off water trainers and Squirtle fans, and doubly so to grass trainers who wouldn't even see a representative. You don't have to prove that he would be a clone because it is hypothetical that Blaziken would even be in the game, and equally impossible to prove that his moveset would be unique. I'd argue he wouldn't have a moveset at all, because it wouldn't be a wise move at this point to include him in the game.

Am I missing any heavy requests or key information? This is my understanding.

The Optimal Pokemon Rep Roster at this point, to me, looks like

Pikachu
Charizard
Sceptile
Greninja
Lucario
Mewtwo
Jigglypuff*
6 being a full team of Pokemon, Jigglypuff possibly being a 7th, DLC, or taking either Sceptile or Mewtwo's slot.

I love the idea of a Wes/Michael/Hero/Heroine/Ranger (pick a game, any game) and Eeveelution puppeteer rep, but that's
:083:
 
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Xenorange

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Like I said before, Greninja was picked before X and Y was announced, and no, being revealed first=/= being more popular, by that logic, Caterpie would be more popular than Lucario and we all know he isn't, Mewtwo will probably return, Why did they picked Lucario? Because he was popular, Why did they picked puff back in the original one? Because she was popular, PKMN reps are chosen differently than the rest of the franchises, they are picked based on their popularity
Ivysaur wasn't a popular Pokemon choice, half the people I played with called him Bulbasaur or Venusaur despite his name being right there on the screen. I don't think it's all about popularity, I think it will be about balancing out the starter trio.
 

Masonomace

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Serperior: Snivy Pokeball, otherwise interesting choice with huge potential
Huuuuuge potential~ I can see the grass snake coiling grabbing smash characters now....constricting them pummels and using tail slams all day errday~ Would be hawt-- *cough* Sorry this is about Sceptile anyways carry on.

But yeah considering my recent change to playing PT starting back in October 2013, he is not popular at all besides Squirtle (1st) and Charizard (2nd). Ivysaur is least popular like Xenorange said...and we have two bad mechanics for PT making him even worse (good for squirtle cus most of the game is fire attacks, BAD for Ivysaur). Which is why Sceptile's upcoming arrival will bring plenty of plant/grass options to the table my friends.

half the people I played with called him Bulbasaur or Venusaur despite his name being right there on the screen.

Lol the announcer even says his name when you choose Ivysaur then click off re-choosing PT, "IVYSAUR!"
 
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ultimatekoopa

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Ivysaur wasn't a popular Pokemon choice, half the people I played with called him Bulbasaur or Venusaur despite his name being right there on the screen. I don't think it's all about popularity, I think it will be about balancing out the starter trio.
The problem with this is that Ivisaur was the only one that could fit as the middle evolution, charizard was the most popular final evolution of Kanto, the 2nd most popular would be blastoise family, that's why we got squirtle, Ivisaur didn't had to compete with Charmeleon or wartotle as thier evolution/pre evolution were already used
 

Xenorange

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The problem with this is that Ivisaur was the only one that could fit as the middle evolution, charizard was the most popular final evolution of Kanto, the 2nd most popular would be blastoise family, that's why we got squirtle, Ivisaur didn't had to compete with Charmeleon or wartotle as thier evolution/pre evolution were already used
My point was that they didn't just use popular Pokemon in brawl. In the case of Pokemon trainer they prioritized completing the starter trio over putting in more popular starters. I think that they'll do that again in this game.
 

ultimatekoopa

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My point was that they didn't just use popular Pokemon in brawl. In the case of Pokemon trainer they prioritized completing the starter trio over putting in more popular starters. I think that they'll do that again in this game.
They used Lucario, Charizard and Squirtle, Ivisaur was filler, this is why Ivisaur will probably not return in the game, he isn't popular, now that there is no PKMN triner, then there is no need to complete the trio as both Charizard and Greninja weren't picked because of their types, If there is a 8th pkmn rep it might be sceptile, but the likes of mewtwo, puff and blaziken would get over him
 

Reality_Ciak

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Ivysaur is arguably the best of the trio in Brawl though. Especially in Project M. May not be a popular Pokemon but was one hell of a Smash Bro.

They used Lucario, Charizard and Squirtle, Ivisaur was filler, this is why Ivisaur will probably not return in the game, he isn't popular, now that there is no PKMN triner, then there is no need to complete the trio as both Charizard and Greninja weren't picked because of their types, If there is a 8th pkmn rep it might be sceptile, but the likes of mewtwo, puff and blaziken would get over him
Squirtle was just as filler as Ivysaur, PT would have been OP if he had 3 final evolutions. That's why Charizard is the only one returning as a stand alone. The point of PT was to have a character that truly represented who you actually play as in Pokemon and gave them mechanics more true to Pokemon. Choosing a starter is the very heart of Pokemon, it's even more important to the games than Pikachu, and to take the grass option away from the roster all together after creating the effect in Brawl would be a step in the wrong direction. Sceptile should, but likely won't, have priority over Mewtwo and Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff should have the least priority because she is the easiest to toss in at the end. Should. But likely won't.
 
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Xenorange

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They used Lucario, Charizard and Squirtle, Ivisaur was filler, this is why Ivisaur will probably not return in the game, he isn't popular, now that there is no PKMN triner, then there is no need to complete the trio as both Charizard and Greninja weren't picked because of their types, If there is a 8th pkmn rep it might be sceptile, but the likes of mewtwo, puff and blaziken would get over him
No way in a million years would Blaziken get in over Sceptile at this point. It makes too much sense for Sakurai to do what he did last game and complete the trio. I would imagine this is why he decided on Greninja so early in development, how would Sakurai be able to tell that Greninja would be popular based on an incomplete design. Plus if popularity was all that mattered Evee would be playable in this game.
 
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Masonomace

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They used Lucario, Charizard and Squirtle, Ivisaur was filler, this is why Ivisaur will probably not return in the game, he isn't popular, now that there is no PKMN triner, then there is no need to complete the trio as both Charizard and Greninja weren't picked because of their types, If there is a 8th pkmn rep it might be sceptile, but the likes of mewtwo, puff and blaziken would get over him
I like your point, however the point is flawed to me because the trio didn't integrate only with Kanto starters solely based on popularity or element type, (which would be my point on why Sceptile gets in but that's done) but all the PKMN were completely different play-styles in the sense. Squirtle was your lightest weight, fast-moving water type that had the most diverse move-set with the most AT's while Charizard was the most heaviest, aerial-inclined character who had gliding ability along with mix of ground game but mostly air. Ivysaur was mid-heavy being strictly ground-based with a strong defensive game walling out opponents with unique tether recovery. So in conclusion yeah PT as the character in brawl removed probably having only Charizard from the group although Ivysaur hasn't been officially de-confirmed but it is highly possible now.
What I'm really trying to say here is: Not only does the element type matter, but what matters most is diverse unique differences between the 3 PKMN starters. Squirtle Ivysaur and Charizard all balanced out each other in terms of play-styles and that's what a PKMN trainer is supposed to be all about in the games right? Blaziken is a good idea on paper for a smash character but things Blaziken would have in Sm4sh would all resmeble clone-like additions from other characters and I'm confident Sakurai wants to nullify all clones and give change.

Plus if popularity was all that mattered Evee would be playable in this game.
Mega Eevee confirmed?

Edit: Added on diversity was also KO potential between the three. Squirtle had the least KO options/KO power excluding D-throw and Hydroplane U-smash. Ivysaur was a aerial killing monster with the best killing U-smash while having a good U-throw and having a top tier potential U-air being the strongest KO potential of the three (ironic huh?). Charizard had the most killing options out of the three consisting of many choices to choose from but won't add them in.
With Charizard coming in he'll most likely become the heavy tank who deals strong knock-back while Greninja will be the speed demon with fast blink speed mix-ups. Sceptile would just be perfect to be the middle, especially for the starters we have now Sceptile's grass type and his utility for his move-set would fit in perfect being mid-heavy with more diversity!
 
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ultimatekoopa

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No way in a million years would Blaziken get in over Sceptile at this point. It makes too much sense for Sakurai to do what he did last game and complete the trio. I would imagine this is why he decided on Greninja so early in development, how would Sakurai be able to tell that Greninja would be popular based on an incomplete design. Plus if popularity was all that mattered Evee would be playable in this game.
http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1970393/pokemon_in_super_smash_bros_how_theyre_selected.html
Sakurai already explained how he chooses the pkmn characters, he doesn't care about the type but about how popular they ar right now, completing the trio made sense to the concept of pkmn trainer, but now there is no need to do it, Sakurai didn't said he chosed greninja because of his type, did he? The only reason people want sceptile is because he is grass type, there is no need to complete the trio as this is not a pokemon game
@ Masonomace Masonomace I'm sure that if Sakurai wanted to add Blaziken, he would make a unique moveset for him
 

Masonomace

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No doubt Sakurai could create a move-set for Blaziken, that'd be cool to see what he'd make. But being a grass fan and personally a huge Sceptile fan, I gotta give it to the Forest Master. This thread isn't about Blaziken but for a quick moment what would you exactly give in detail about Blaziken that would seperate him/her from the rest of the Smash Roster that would make him/her unique enough to not be treated clone-material to any other fire elemental user? There are multiple characters who have a Flame element so it's not completely rediculous that Blaziken gets in, but I want full details: Advanced Technique's, Weight, Height, Usage, Air speed, Falling speed, Running speed, and traction. I don't want move-sets or specials or Final Smash I want built-in mechanics about Blaziken...GO! @ U ultimatekoopa
 

Xenorange

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http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1970393/pokemon_in_super_smash_bros_how_theyre_selected.html
Sakurai already explained how he chooses the pkmn characters, he doesn't care about the type but about how popular they ar right now, completing the trio made sense to the concept of pkmn trainer, but now there is no need to do it, Sakurai didn't said he chosed greninja because of his type, did he? The only reason people want sceptile is because he is grass type, there is no need to complete the trio as this is not a pokemon game
@ Masonomace Masonomace I'm sure that if Sakurai wanted to add Blaziken, he would make a unique moveset for him
Then explain the Greninja choice, a character with an incomplete design that hadn't been revealed yet. He chose Greninja because it was a water starter from the new generation and because I'm sure even at that incomplete stage it looked like it would work for smash.
 

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ultimatekoopa

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Then explain the Greninja choice, a character with an incomplete design that hadn't been revealed yet. He chose Greninja because it was a water starter from the new generation and because I'm sure even at that incomplete stage it looked like it would work for smash.
Except he didn't said he chose him because of his type, that's something you are assuming, like Sakurai explained, there was a spot fr a x and y character and Sakurai simply chose one of them, you could say that Greninja was lucky
 

Xenorange

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Except he didn't said he chose him because of his type, that's something you are assuming, like Sakurai explained, there was a spot fr a x and y character and Sakurai simply chose one of them, you could say that Greninja was lucky
Did Sakurai specifically state that he didn't pick Greninja because of his typing?
 

Masonomace

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Masonomace
I'm pretty sure (?) or thought that Game Freak sends their recommended PKMN to Sakurai for fighter ideas for promoting their game. In that sense It would make little dollars for Sakurai to just choose Greninja out of luck. (or that's what I would think without fully knowing the situation)
 
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Xenorange

Smash Lord
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May 19, 2014
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I'm pretty sure (?) or thought that Game Freak sends their recommended PKMN to Sakurai for fighter ideas for promoting their game. In that sense It would make little dollars for Sakurai to just choose Greninja out of luck. (or that's what I would think without fully knowing the situation)
If GF themselves sent in the characters to Sakurai then I'm even more convinced now.
 
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