The Final Nail: Why Brawl Can't Be Blamed for Melee's Problems

[The_Dark_Zero]

No posts for long a time means I'm gonna get huge flame posts....

 

[AlphaZealot]

I'm thinking of just invoking a "no more discussing Brawl versus Melee".

As it stands, this thread doesn't look like its going anywhere.

The point is: the same players that are blaming Brawl for Melee unpopularity are the same players that are leaving the Melee scene and playing in Brawl tournaments, a scene which if they had never left would still be popular and would still have money.

Its a pretty simple and mostly accurate statement, but its also a pointless one to make considering nothing will change what has happened.

You guys get a day, maybe two, to make closing arguments.

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

Thank you, THANK YOU. This can all end here and now.

 

[EvolveOrDie]

All I'm saying is that the crux of your argument is actually that blame always lies within the actions of people, and not inanimate objects. It has nothing to do with brawl or melee, which game is better, or the behavior of melee or brawl players.

And this requires you laying out what you consider blame and what you consider criteria for direct causation.

Also, it's physically impossible for the feather to break the pinata because of

1). air resistance that creates a maximum possible velocity for the feather to travel, which is gonna be far less than needed,

and

2). the fact that the feather isn't a rigid object and that's what's going to give, not the surface of the pinata.

Well the thing is from everything I've read Jack is saying the only the majority of the blame applies to the action of the people and that indeed he has conceded that some of the blame can be placed on the inanimate object.

As for the feather air pressure need not always be applicable, you assume this isn't preformed in a vacuum. Also who says I'm not using the shaft of the feather and launching it in a bullet like manner.

I agree with the closure of this thread as a supporter of Jack's original proposal I can say that in my opinion he has stated the truth and it's not one that can be reasonably refuted. As this is my last post in this thread I bid adieu to this thread and all who participated at least until we cross words again.

Edit: @Gustav
Sorry I didn't answer point 2 umm, well the feather in this case would most likely not fare to well but given a most likely unreasonable amount of force the pinata would break at some point.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You guys are dolts. Arguing over a video game...I was trying to stop it, failed, and now I come back to see it even worse, you people are immature idiots who don't even DESERVE TO PLAY EITHER GAMES. Stop arguing and be more mature.

While I can understand AZ's sentiments, it's bull**** like this that's totally unwarranted. Do us a favor and actually contribute to the discussion at hand WITHOUT pulling percentages out of your *** and spewing garbage like this. At least I had the courtesy to admit, at the time, that I had nothing to contribute. Do yourself a favor and do the same.

However, I do feel that this thread has reached its apex. As I said before, I'm of the camp that says both ends of the issue are right. No it isn't entirely Brawl's fault that Melee's scene is being subsidized and that part of the responsibility falls on the shoulders of those that bother to play the game. Conversely speaking, however, if it wasn't for Brawl's freshness and mere existence then Melee wouldn't be seeing a decline either. If Brawl wasn't around, then Melee would probably just as popular as it had been for the past few years (though that point is moot, anyway).

Smooth Criminal

 

[Grunt]

CLOSING ARGUMENT:
It's all M2K's fault.

 

[Winston]

As for the feather air pressure need not always be applicable, you assume this isn't preformed in a vacuum. Also who says I'm not using the shaft of the feather and launching it in a bullet like manner.

Can a pinata exist in a vacuum? (I don't know, but it seems like it shouldn't be able to...) I think it's a reasonable assumption to assume that we're doing it on earth unless otherwise specified >.>

And what about point number 2 (that the feather would take most of the impact rather than the pinata)?

 

[Corigames]

you people are immature idiots who don't even DESERVE TO PLAY EITHER GAMES. Stop arguing and be more mature.

Oh, I'm sorry I wasn't here to respond to this. Too bad I was too busy doing extensive extracurricular school work for college and staying over time at my job where I am now a manager after 2 people quit in the same night on me. I'm also living on my own, paying my own bills, making rent, and buying everything I need to survive. I guess we can pass all of that stuff up because I'm passionate about a game that I spent a long time playing competitively on.

You grow up.

Oh, and as for closing comments:
Think about the next time you are playing Brawl. Is there a little voice in the back of your head? Do you ever doubt that you aren't living up to your full potential? Do you feel regret? Do you feel uncomfortable? Do you have the need, even slight, to play a real competitive game?

If you experience any of these or more, then I consider Extra Strength Melee.

Apply directly to the forehead.

 

[Iron Thorn]

I'm thinking of just invoking a "no more discussing Brawl versus Melee".

Oh my God, PLEASE. I will love you forever if you do ;w;

 

[MarKO X]

Closing arguments... so now we took this to court... well, here's mine.

It's basically repeating what I already said:
Can you blame the bomb for the bombing?
Can you blame the gun for the shooting?
Can you blame the knife for the stabbing?
Can you blame the alcohol for the abuse of it?
Can you blame the art of boxing for getting punched in you face?
Can you blame the dodgeball for getting hit with it?
Can you blame the spitball for getting spat at?
Can you blame the watergun for getting soaked?
Can you blame the Brawl for Melee's problems?

The point is simple, if the instrument, whether it be the gun, the knife, the dodgeball, or Brawl, did not exist, then yeah, the following problem for each case would obviously not exist. However, the instruments do exist, and if people choose not to use the instrument, a choice in which everybody has, then the given problems still wouldn't exist.
I got three examples:

1) You're a thug in the streets. A rival thug shoots you. You KNOW who the thug is. After you recover, who are gonna get your revenge on, the thug or the gun?
2) You're friend plays the classic prank by making it such that when you open the door to your room, paint falls on you. You know exactly which friend of yours did it. Who you gonna get revenge on, the door, the paint, or your friend?
3) A person makes a pinata. I have a feather. Instead of trying to smash the pinata with the feather, I take that one pointy point of the feather and keep poking holes in the pinata (because pinatas aren't "hard" objects). Eventually, I poke it enough to make one big hole, thus breaking the pinata. Who do you blame for the breaking of the pinata, the feather, or me?

And with that, I rest my case. (two birds with one stone, awesome.)

 

[Corigames]

I'm thinking of just invoking a "no more discussing Brawl versus Melee".

How about instead of trying to expect everyone to hold to such an outrages code, we set up an "Official Debate" thread in one of the boards. Maybe the lighthouse or some **** like that? I'll tell you, I really enjoy these conversations, and they are probably the only reason I'm still even as little apart of the community as I am now. I'm just buying time until Melee comes back, and if this debate is outlawed... then... that leaves me with the Melee Samus boards which travel at the speed of dead.

Consider it at least? Please?

 

[Vyse]

How about instead of trying to expect everyone to hold to such an outrages code, we set up an "Official Debate" thread in one of the boards. Maybe the lighthouse or some **** like that? I'll tell you, I really enjoy these conversations, and they are probably the only reason I'm still even as little apart of the community as I am now. I'm just buying time until Melee comes back, and if this debate is outlawed... then... that leaves me with the Melee Samus boards which travel at the speed of dead.

Consider it at least? Please?

That'd be a great idea IMO.

We have a tier list discussion topic which essentially serves the same purpose, and it's great. But we still get a ton of 'Lets look at the tier list this way' threads as well.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Closing arguments... so now we took this to court... well, here's mine.

It's basically repeating what I already said:
Can you blame the bomb for the bombing?
Can you blame the gun for the shooting?
Can you blame the knife for the stabbing?
Can you blame the alcohol for the abuse of it?
Can you blame the art of boxing for getting punched in you face?
Can you blame the dodgeball for getting hit with it?
Can you blame the spitball for getting spat at?
Can you blame the watergun for getting soaked?
Can you blame the Brawl for Melee's problems?

The point is simple, if the instrument, whether it be the gun, the knife, the dodgeball, or Brawl, did not exist, then yeah, the following problem for each case would obviously not exist. However, the instruments do exist, and if people choose not to use the instrument, a choice in which everybody has, then the given problems still wouldn't exist.

Well, here's the thing, not everyone got the choice. Im sure you've noticed alot of general hate towards 08ers and one of the main underlying reasons for this hate is that they didn't make a choice. Many new members showed up around Brawls release time and only played Brawl, without giving Melee a chance. Because of that only the existing Melee community could support Melee, however, the number of player for each game were vastly unbalanced. Brawl(being new) attracted huge amounts of people(for the sole fact that its new >_>) Whats ironic is that many of these people, who accuse Melee enthusiasts of not giving Brawl a chance never gave Melee a chance. Now granted, they have PLAYED Melee, but considering the context of the general debate, that is a moot point as it would equate to me stating that I know Melee is better than Brawl competitively because a high skill melee match is more competitive than Brawl's Classic Mode on hard(for those who don't understand, Im stating that the new players who picked up Brawl competitively never played Melee competitively)

The point Im getting at is that with this huge influx of new players comes a huge amount of demand for the only game they play and in order to meet this demand, TO's have to have Brawl, there is no question about that. Now, thats not to say that TO's are FORCED to have Brawl, but, due to the fact that most TO's struggle just to have their tourneys break even for the venue cost, its more than likely their best option, and for this I hold no grudge towards them. What does annoy me are the huge amounts of players who refuse to give Melee a try. The fact that something is older does not make it any worse, the fact that you played it for 7 years doesn't change the fact that you may very well know nothing about it. Hell, I just found out about competitive pokemon about 6 months ago. Do you have any idea what a shock that was to me? I've played pokemon for YEARS and only now am I beginning to see its depth, and you know what makes me sad? I can't go back and experience the gameplay from the older games because no one plays any of them any more. D/P is great, but I really want to experience everything I never got to about pokemon, but I can't. So rather complain about how Melee players are elitest, rather than just moving along and ignoring something amazing, why not try it? Why not experience something you've never experienced before and help the community grow as a whole? Don't debate, don't argue, don't force yourself to just play one game. I understand that many melee players really don't enjoy Brawl, but do you know why they don't like it? Because it they tried it, the explored it, they gave it a chance. Obviously, its not for everyone, just like Melee wont be for everyone, and those who earnestly don't like Melee are entitled to not like Melee, just like those who earnestly don't like Brawl are entitled not to like Brawl. But at least give it a try. And while your at it, try out Smash 64, that **** is mad crazy

P.S. If the above text is just a jumble of random letters and symbols, i apologize, its 3:30am and I've been working alot lately, I have a hard time keeping focused.

 

[Corigames]

I feel that by saying, "Don't talk about this!" is not going to solve anything. People who want to talk about it will, even if it means closing their posts or moderating it. However, by making one thread or board where you can talk about it, then you can avoid the excessive spam that pops up from it. I think it's the best solution and only requires a thread, one thread, to be stickied somewhere. Then you could lock, block, and rock anyone who thinks about making one outside of that one area. It's like the stickied anger release thread in these boards (it would actually replace that thread probably )

Edit:
Well put Reaper. That's basically my thoughts on the whole subject. I played Brawl. I went to several tournaments. I learned the meta, practiced, and played. I came to the conclusion that I hated it. Did the 08ers telling me to move on do that with Melee? did they attend one tournament? Did they train? Did they practice? Did they play it for more than an hour on any scale of competition before settling on Brawl?

I know this isn't true for everyone, so don't take it to heart if it doesn't include you >_>

 

[Vyse]

TO's have to have Brawl, there is no question about that. Now, thats not to say that TO's are FORCED to have Brawl, but, due to the fact that most TO's struggle just to have their tourneys break even for the venue cost, its more than likely their best option, and for this I hold no grudge towards them.

I agree with everything you said, but I especially agree with you on this part. I began a thread in 'Tournament Discussion' relating to this issue of choosing Brawl over Melee, actually, it was a direct result of me reading this thread in the first place.

 

[Reaver197]

I'm thinking of just invoking a "no more discussing Brawl versus Melee".

I, like coreygames, don't think there should be a blanket ban and censure of all things that are "Brawl vs. Melee". I think it's a perfectly legitimate discussion, and is almost unavoidable in our current state of affairs, so both in principal and practice, I think it should allowed, at least to some extent. However, I understand that maybe the GBD isn't the best place for this type of discussion, so maybe creating a separate board elsewhere for it would work out best for everyone. Or even a particular thread, like coreygames mentioned.

By the way, Jack Kieser, if you're reading this, I apologize for not yet responding to your questions. I've been pretty busy the last couple of days, having to work overtime and plan a visit from a friend of mine. I hope to finally finish up my response soon.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Coreygames:

Yea, its looking like we'll put up just one thread somewhere for the topic to be discussed, however that thread will likely not be in Brawl or Melee rooms, lighthouse as you mentioned seems possible.

 

[Corigames]

Thank you for at least considering it though.

10Smileyavatarfaces

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, AZ, if that's the case you can go ahead and close all my topics in here, then. I've already been making the same points over and over again, so there's no real point in me repeating myself some more.

Oh, and Reaver, I'm still interested in hearing what you have to say. Take all the time you need; if the thread is closed before you can post, please PM me your response.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I know this is a double post, but the SBR HAS RELEASED THEIR BRAWL RULESET!

Everyone, go to Tournament Discussion and read it now. It is your duty.

 

[Doggalina]

I'm interested in whether or not stage striking will be used in Melee. It seems more fair than random select.

 

[Skler]

Stage striking was always in Melee if I remember correctly.

 

[Doggalina]

Stage striking was always in Melee if I remember correctly.

It was? I was under the impression that the first match was always decided by random select, but each person could strike 1 stage from it.

 

[AlphaZealot]

It was never in Melee.

The problem is stage striking can refer to two things:
1) Stage bans each player gets for the whole set (each player choosing to strike 1 stage not to be played at all).
2) the newer system where you have a pool of neutral stages and each player strikes a stage back and forth until only one remains. This happens after characters are chosen. This is the fairest way of choosing the first stage as both players will settle on a healthy medium that fits the match up between their two characters. All stages that were "stricken" during this process are open for counterpicks.

 

[Doggalina]

Yeah, I was referring to 2. I hope future Melee tournaments use it.

 

[Skler]

It seems just as unfair for the broken characters as random stages are, if not more so. Some characters are just better on more of the neutrals. I'd rather have a chance of the stage being something in favor of my character than having the stage always be something in the favor of my opponent (Link does pretty badly in his top tier matchups on most of the neutrals).

Let's say I go Link vs Sheik, I know what I'm getting into, but the stage select would force me to go on a stage where Link gets ***** horribly (first round Sheik bans FoD, i ban FD, second round Sheik bans YS, I ban DL64, Sheik bans PS and I get ***** badly because Link is trash on battlefield against Sheik). I think that stage select idea discourages the use of low tiers, badly. Besides, whoever gets first stike has an obvious advantage, handing out advantages before the match even starts (character select is decided by the players, you know what you're doing when you pick your character) for no reason at all is a bad idea. I'd rather have to gamble a bit and have a chance of getting less ***** than have to fight an even more uphill battle than usual every time.

Basically, everyone who plays a low tier gets screwed over even more than usual because low tiers are traditionally really bad on most of the neutrals. At least give me a chance of getting a stage I won't get CGed to hell and back every time on. Sure, it's less luck (although i'd say the advantage of striking first is huge in just slightly uneven matchups, if Link got to strike first it wouldn't really matter though because he's also trash on PS against Sheik).

That strike rule is good on even matchups, but it discourages diversity. It would force me to pick a different character just to stand a chance on the first game. Don't give me the BS that Link vs Sheik (or any bad matchup for that matter) is terrible anyways, it gets a lot worse on some stages and a lot more bearable on others.

Edit: I'd rather have random than a 100% chance of a bad matchup made worse by the stage. You could say no johns pick a better character but then why not unban all the stages with walls and say no johns just pick Fox (or if you're talking Brawl, DDD).

 

[AlphaZealot]

That strike rule is good on even matchups, but it discourages diversity. It would force me to pick a different character just to stand a chance on the first game. Don't give me the BS that Link vs Sheik (or any bad matchup for that matter) is terrible anyways, it gets a lot worse on some stages and a lot more bearable on others.

This makes little sense. Your saying that, if you have 5 generally accepted to be "neutral" stages, and the opponent gets rid of two of the choices, that you wouldn't be able to be happy with one of those other 3 stages? What it sounds like is that you AREN'T diverse, as in, you can only play on 1 stage, and instead of learning to play 2 or 3, you would rather a 1 in 5/6 chance of playing your 1 stage than finding a compromise with the opponent.

This gets rid of the russian roulette feeling with randoming a neutral selection. I can for sure get rid of my worst two stages for the specific match up, and the opponent can do likewise.

If you have say:
Lylat
Yoshi
FD
BF
SV

And its Diddy versus MK
the MK would strike, likely, FD and SV
I would strike either Lylat/BF and we would play on Yoshi.
Sure, FD was my best stage, but Lylat was also my worst stage and likely an automatic loss. Conversely MK would likely have lost automatically on FD (believe or not, I almost never lose on FD), and would have more than likely won on BF/Lylat. This basically is taking an abbreviated list of stages and having each player whittle it down until there is one left.

This goes back to Melee, where I use to play Peach.

Peach versus Fox on Melee neutrals you had, usually:
FoD
FD
Dl64
PS
BF
maybe another stage or two
FD/DL64 were okay, FoD/PS/BF were all easy **** by Fox over Peach, PS is basically an autoloss actually, many of my sets back in Melee, including two at FCD, were decided cause the game randomed to PS against a Fox and I was screwed.

The stage strike system is the fairest and most even way to do it.

Your only screwed if your character can only play well on one stage, in which case ini the random system you screwed 4/5ths of the time. At least in the stage strike system you have some control over your own destiny.

Per who goes first: If you go first, then the opponent gets last pick, I would much rather have last pick, but both options are advantageous, it depends on the player. I also suggest that who goes first be the opposite of who got to choose their controller port first.

 

[cjrocker]

This topic is now a debate on stage striking.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Closing arguments

but when someone presents an argument as irresponsible as assigning blame or responsibility towards something that cannot act, I lose all respect for someone.

The program Napster couldn't act by itself. It didn't hack into music networks and steal music. That didn't keep it from losing the lawsuit. Cocaine cannot act. It's still illegal. Likewise, Brawl isn't physically snatching Melee players and forcing them to play it competitively. That doesn't mean it's existence is NOT having a negative effect on the Melee community just as Napster had a negative effect on music and just as cocaine has a negative effect on the community.

Simply put, Skler's logic assures that if anything in the community changes, even a little bit, players are never obligated to assume any personal responsibility for their actions, or at least not the majority of responsibility they deserve. 'Oh, a new game came out. That's why Melee is suffering. Not because we chose to play another game. We didn't want to, but the new game made us play it. We like money, after all. It's only natural. It's not our fault. It made us do it.' It's ridiculous, to be frank.

In NYC there used to be Melee weeklies. Those weeklies were the only tournaments in NYC for Melee. After Brawl came out those changed to Brawl weeklies. Obviously the people who preferred Melee were not happy with this. One of them, Vanz, decided he wasn't going to enter the Brawl weeklies to keep the size of the pot smaller. After awhile though, it became clear that wasn't enough. This left him with the following choice: Never play smash competitively in NYC ever again or play Brawl in NYC.

Who should be held responsible for the decline of competitive Melee?

Simply, competitive Melee players and tournament organizers.

You are saying that every Melee player who likes the game more who plays Brawl is to blame. Vanz wasn't given much of a choice. His situation isn't unique. That's happened around the country. Yet you STILL claim that these people should be held responsible.

Money isn't a decent justification, either. Like I noted in an earlier post, unless Smash is your main breadwinner (as in you don't have a job, other than playing games), you can't use money as an excuse. Pros have a justifiable reason for following the cash: if they don't, they can't pay rent/eat. The average Smasher, though, can miss tourneys or go to lower paying ones and still make rent/eat. Even so, if you're playing competitive gaming as a living, you're better off playing Halo competitively. Basically, there are better paying games than Smash, so if it was really an issue, you'd either get an actual job or play a better paying game.

I'm in college, it's being paid for by my parents under the condition that I pay them back after I'm done with college. Therefore, I do not need money. I am not going to die from hunger or be unable to pay bills. I play Brawl exclusively for money. Yeah, everything essential is being paid for. Since I happen to want other things like books and video games that are superior to Brawl, I play Brawl for money. Sure I could get a job but I don't need that much money and taking money from people who actually care about Brawl and like the game is infinitely more fun then getting a job.

 

[Winston]

This goes back to Melee, where I use to play Peach.

Peach versus Fox on Melee neutrals you had, usually:
FoD
FD
Dl64
PS
BF
maybe another stage or two
FD/DL64 were okay, FoD/PS/BF were all easy **** by Fox over Peach, PS is basically an autoloss actually, many of my sets back in Melee, including two at FCD, were decided cause the game randomed to PS against a Fox and I was screwed.

The stage strike system is the fairest and most even way to do it.

Your only screwed if your character can only play well on one stage, in which case ini the random system you screwed 4/5ths of the time. At least in the stage strike system you have some control over your own destiny.

I don't play brawl so I'll address this bit, but I think Skler is right.

So, according to you, Peach vs Fox is bad for Peach on 2 neutrals, completely awful on 1 neutral, and decent on 2 neutrals.

On random select, then you'd hit a decent stage 2/5 times. 2/4 times if you banned PS, or 1/3 times if you banned PS and he bans FD or DL64 (though he might be banning brinstar).

With stage strike, if the Fox knows what he's doing, he gets to strike FD and DL64 EVERY TIME. That means you will ALWAYS be playing on a stage that's bad for you, as opposed to merely 3/5ths of the time.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

I'm in college...Therefore, I do not need money.

dude, what college are you going too? i want to send in an application...a college where the students don't need money? I didn't think such a place existed or such people existed!

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

The program Napster couldn't act by itself. It didn't hack into music networks and steal music. That didn't keep it from losing the lawsuit. Cocaine cannot act. It's still illegal. Likewise, Brawl isn't physically snatching Melee players and forcing them to play it competitively. That doesn't mean it's existence is NOT having a negative effect on the Melee community just as Napster had a negative effect on music and just as cocaine has a negative effect on the community.



QUOTE]

U know um...
Good point.

 

[teh_spamerer]

dude, what college are you going too? i want to send in an application...a college where the students don't need money? I didn't think such a place existed or such people existed!

Good **** deleting the rest of my first sentence in the quote. You're cool.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

who isn't that great of a player either

I don't like bragging a whole lot, but honestly I had the most insanely effective, most insanely precise, and most insanely intuitive Ness ever along with a vast knowledge of game physics and behavior that I needed to, could, and did use to my disposal to get high rankings as a ness player (im talking things like knowing the exact intervals on arwing appearences on corneria and the exact intervals between winds on dreamland and all kinds of crap). Along with that i had the highest developed mindgame built for Ness with the perfect ratio of risk to reward and unparalelled use of fear as a manipulation tool and some of the most fantastic insight into manipulation tactics as a whole both within and without the game itself. This style of play took me many YEARS of careful tweaking to develop!

I know it doesnt seem like what i said first is true(the thing about not liking bragging), but that post i quoted just felt like a....i dunno.....backhanded compliment i guess. I know it wasnt really meant as a compliment at all or even directed towards me, but it just felt to me like a delicious slice of cake that after biting into had the bitter taste of poison and had to be spit out

anyway im up for some melee if anyone wants to come over to my place sometime

 

[Winston]

I don't like bragging a whole lot, but honestly I had the most insanely effective, most insanely precise, and most insanely intuitive Ness ever along with a vast knowledge of game physics and behavior that I needed to, could, and did use to my disposal to get high rankings as a ness player (im talking things like knowing the exact intervals on arwing appearences on corneria and the exact intervals between winds on dreamland and all kinds of crap). Along with that i had the highest developed mindgame built for Ness with the perfect ratio of risk to reward and unparalelled use of fear as a manipulation tool and some of the most fantastic insight into manipulation tactics as a whole both within and without the game itself. This style of play took me many YEARS of careful tweaking to develop!

I know it doesnt seem like what i said first is true(the thing about not liking bragging), but that post i quoted just felt like a....i dunno.....backhanded compliment i guess. I know it wasnt really meant as a compliment at all or even directed towards me, but it just felt to me like a delicious slice of cake that after biting into had the bitter taste of poison and had to be spit out

anyway im up for some melee if anyone wants to come over to my place sometime

The thing is you never beat anyone good in tournament matches that were recorded and uploaded =(

I'm a fan of yours but that fact does make it easy for people to make statements like that...

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

yeah i know, not their fault....mostly....not everyone could travel around to tournaments to watch in person

its just there are some biases that are unavoidable for instance....like it doesnt matter how good you are, if you play as ness...ppl are not gonna record your matches. ALMOST NEVER ever will another person setup to record matches from a ness player(some othr characters too), so you have to rely on yourself to get recordings and that was not something easy for me. And on top of ppl not being able to travel to BEAT these tournaments in person.....most of the ppl who WERE there were not interested in watching someone using Ness(dont get me wrong, thinking back to every tournament match i've ever had i dont think there was a single one where NO ONE was watching....and even some got some super-sized crowds, but for the most part ppl would elsewhere viewing other matches).

I just really felt like i had to say something in response to the post i quoted

 

[-Linko-]

Closing comment:

It's all M2K's fault.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

I don't like bragging a whole lot, but honestly I had the most insanely effective, most insanely precise, and most insanely intuitive Ness ever along with a vast knowledge of game physics and behavior that I needed to, could, and did use to my disposal to get high rankings as a ness player (im talking things like knowing the exact intervals on arwing appearences on corneria and the exact intervals between winds on dreamland and all kinds of crap). Along with that i had the highest developed mindgame built for Ness with the perfect ratio of risk to reward and unparalelled use of fear as a manipulation tool and some of the most fantastic insight into manipulation tactics as a whole both within and without the game itself. This style of play took me many YEARS of careful tweaking to develop!

It is understandable that someone would be pissed at a new game that came out--all the stuff you learned andwhat-not is potentially out the window...?

 

[teh_spamerer]

It is understandable that someone would be pissed at a new game that came out--all the stuff you learned andwhat-not is potentially out the window...?

It's not that the old stuff is gone. If I had to spend years to master Brawl I wouldn't care. The problem is that Brawl is not anywhere close to as in depth as Melee.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, so I just got back from a day trip, so I know I've missed a lot. I just wanted to make one note about teh spamerer's post about Napster. I was about to say that you made a good point... until I realized that you were totally forgetting something very important.

Napster didn't get sued. Napster's creator got sued.

The program wasn't held responsible for anything. The creator was.