The Fairy with Fighting Spirit: Lip for Smash! **PETITION AVAILABLE - CHECK FIRST POST!**

Jyl

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That's the spirit! We should all be optimistic for Lippy to get into Smash 6, if she's not DLC here. If we push hard enough, I know something good could happen.

Also check out this amazing Lip artwork courtesy of CarlesS_21 on Twitter:


My favorite is the one in the middle.
Don't like how he deliberately put "illegally" but oh well I don't mind it too much. The art is good.
 

StarDustStorm

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I doubt there would be any new content for Panel de Pon in general for next game if she's not playable along with no new game. All you would get is her equipable Support Spirit, Mii Costume, references, one song and that's all.

The item although does nothing against her being playable, wouldn't make sense to give her an Assist Trophy. Ex. Knuckles cannot appear as an Assist Trophy if the stage is played on Green Hill Zone since he runs around the loop. Tingle's Assist Trophy status was removed likely due to the Great Bay returning as a stage and his role on there. Even non-playable characters are affected by their roles in certain places in the game.

If the item was removed because she became an Assist Trophy, then the flower effect would possibly disappear along with it which means 2 forms of Panel de Pon representation would be effectively removed from Smash that has been here since Melee. That would make Panel de Pon's representation much less unique compared to the other non-playable/no stage universes. Also for a decent number of returning Spirits in Smash 6 who equipped the Lip's Stick would have to forge to another effect without that item. The Flower effect is used for a Health-drain effect for your opponents in Spirits mode and especially Special Smash is a sign that this and the Lip's Stick item are going to be a stable to the Smash series for years to come.
 
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I doubt there would be any new content for Panel de Pon in general for next game if she's not playable along with no new game. All you would get is her equipable Support Spirit, Mii Costume, references, one song and that's all.

The item although does nothing against her being playable, wouldn't make sense to give her an Assist Trophy. Ex. Knuckles cannot appear as an Assist Trophy if the stage is played on Green Hill Zone since he runs around the loop. Tingle's Assist Trophy status was removed likely due to the Great Bay returning as a stage and his role on there. Even non-playable characters are affected by their roles in certain places in the game.

If the item was removed because she became an Assist Trophy, then the flower effect would possibly disappear along with it which means 2 forms of Panel de Pon representation would be effectively removed from Smash that has been here since Melee. That would make Panel de Pon's representation much less unique compared to the other non-playable/no stage universes. Also for a decent number of returning Spirits in Smash 6 who equipped the Lip's Stick would have to forge to another effect without that item. The Flower effect is used for a Health-drain effect for your opponents in Spirits mode and especially Special Smash is a sign that this and the Lip's Stick item are going to be a stable to the Smash series for years to come.
There's already another health-drain effect in this game. It's called "poison". Take a close look at what happens after one of Rathalos's claw dives or Yuri's spirit camera.
 

MasterRosie

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I doubt there would be any new content for Panel de Pon in general for next game if she's not playable along with no new game. All you would get is her equipable Support Spirit, Mii Costume, references, one song and that's all.

The item although does nothing against her being playable, wouldn't make sense to give her an Assist Trophy. Ex. Knuckles cannot appear as an Assist Trophy if the stage is played on Green Hill Zone since he runs around the loop. Tingle's Assist Trophy status was removed likely due to the Great Bay returning as a stage and his role on there. Even non-playable characters are affected by their roles in certain places in the game.

If the item was removed because she became an Assist Trophy, then the flower effect would possibly disappear along with it which means 2 forms of Panel de Pon representation would be effectively removed from Smash that has been here since Melee. That would make Panel de Pon's representation much less unique compared to the other non-playable/no stage universes. Also for a decent number of returning Spirits in Smash 6 who equipped the Lip's Stick would have to forge to another effect without that item. The Flower effect is used for a Health-drain effect for your opponents in Spirits mode and especially Special Smash is a sign that this and the Lip's Stick item are going to be a stable to the Smash series for years to come.
You just loooooooove being a debby downer, don’t you?
 

DOTBHDD

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I think one thing holding us back is that we stay solidified here in this thread.

Personally I think Gamefaqs; while toxic at times, is also a great way to support her. That site is such an easy way to create topics about her and get her name circulating in people's heads. Even if 2 or 3 of us here made topics about her inclusion in Smash, it'll get the ball rolling for others to hop in on the conversation.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77346666#14

Not even just on Gamefaqs. Talking about her through Resetera, Twitter, Reddit , YouTube (especially) and other forms of media will help way more than one may consider.

Our support got her a spirit and a Mii Costume but going the extra mile will help Sakurai understand she's just as viable for a newcomer as Isaac or Tap Trial Girl.

Okay. That's it.
 

StarDustStorm

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There's already another health-drain effect in this game. It's called "poison". Take a close look at what happens after one of Rathalos's claw dives or Yuri's spirit camera.
You just loooooooove being a debby downer, don’t you?
I'd argue that the majority of effects in Smash are just a variation of the normal hit effect in Smash such as the Coins. Especially the Plunge and Burry effects. The only difference is that Plunge makes the opponent go through soft platforms. A variation of another effect can always coexist with each other.

Special Smash since Brawl hasn't given the player less than two exclusive options for a specific trait for the settings. Flower goes on the head, while where would poison be on the body if it was an option, using this as a replacement would give players less options for this mode, which I doubt the developers would ever do. The Ramblin' Mushroom effect can be added to this mode next game but there was no Spirit event where the player was forced to have a Mushroom on their head throughout the whole duration of the match, instead it was the generic moving left is right and right is left swap.
Crazy Hand loves to use the Flower Effect on one of his attacks especially when Master Hand is the creator of the Smash Bros. universe.

The only special case where an item is removed representing a certain status effect was when the Cloaking Device from Perfect Dark, the only thing that allows you to turn invisible in the middle of a match. Technically any Rare properties represented in Smash were dismounted from what they used to represent. Both the Motion-Sensor Bomb (Golden Eye/Perfect Dark) and the Invisible effect now moves on to being Smash-only representation. For Panel de Pon, no rights issues is going to cause the Flower effect become Smash-only representation. There isn't any functionality reasoning for the Lip's Stick item to be removed.
 
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Why do you keep acting like this, StarDustStorm? Are you trying to be realistic or what? Because you're just coming off as a pessimist. Callie fans were able to bring her back when they were disappointed that she disappeared after completing Hero Mode for no good reason, and disappointed Lip fans just might be able to do the same.
 

DOTBHDD

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Why do you keep acting like this, StarDustStorm? Are you trying to be realistic or what? Because you're just coming off as a pessimist. Callie fans were able to bring her back when they were disappointed that she disappeared after completing Hero Mode for no good reason, and disappointed Lip fans just might be able to do the same.
I know for a fact we could.

Metroid fans voiced their opinions and got Metroid back. On the 3DS and on the Switch.

We don't even have to beg for that. Honestly, if we expressed our interest in a physical localization pf Panel de Pon strong enough, damn straight it's possible to bring her back.

Puyo Puyo Tetris and Tetris Effect are still great examples of puzzles games still killing it in modern day. With the addictive nature of Panel de Pon, we can make it happen.

Asking for Lip in Smash and a localization of the original game is going to take hella passion.

All these threads with 10,000+ replies are all just fans who are passionate. We're in the 3,000+ and getting stronger.

Idk man. I just feel like Lip has one of the most headstrong and optimistic fan bases there is and it is very contagious. I want to support as much as I can but I don't want to do it alone so I'm glad there's a few of you guys who want Lip back just as badly as I do.
 

GoodGrief741

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Why do you keep acting like this, StarDustStorm? Are you trying to be realistic or what? Because you're just coming off as a pessimist. Callie fans were able to bring her back when they were disappointed that she disappeared after completing Hero Mode for no good reason, and disappointed Lip fans just might be able to do the same.
I can appreciate a realistic viewpoint. Keeps us all in reality and prevents us from getting too excited or even worse, entitled.
 

Jyl

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I can appreciate a realistic viewpoint. Keeps us all in reality and prevents us from getting too excited or even worse, entitled.
Being realistic isn't bad, but like DOTBHDD and N.Onoymous already mentioned, various fanbases were able to get what they want by being loud enough to get their voice heard, and they didn't do it by being realist pessimists like he's doing. That's essentially acting like you're giving up on the series, which is far from what we need if we want our voices to be heard.
I'm not in exactly any position to say this, but being active is another way to get our voices heard, we've been quiet for a while now, but I understand that's mostly because the game came out recently. Just looking through the Issac Twitterfans and damn they are active.
 

DOTBHDD

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I mean, if anything. I have hope Lip will be playable and her series will come back for two reasons. Both involve costumes.

1. Puzzle League in Animal Crossing.

Animal Crossing is a huge game for Nintendo and the fact that out of all of their old IPs to make mini games in the game, they chose Puzzle League. That's great! It significantly enhances her chances because they could've made an F-Zero minigame, a Mario minigame, a Yoshi minigame. But they gave it to Puzzle League. And upon doing challenges in the game, you get Lip's outfit.

2. Lip's Outfit in Smash

I think this is a bigger deal than most realize. Our support got her this. If we weren't vocal before, we wouldn't have gotten this Mii Costume. I believe the same thing with Isaac. I have a small theory that if a character is a Mii Costume but the Mii moveset doesn't match the character, they could be promoted. Lip has had the stick since Melee and the song since Brawl. But our support has gotten her an official outfit AND spirit. Lip is officially a noticable presence in Smash.

I honestly think we're at the door. She's made a cameo in two of Nintendo's most popular series. Both in the same decade. I think this is major because Nintendo is probably testing the waters. Seeing if her or her series is catching on.

Let's not forget that on the Japanese Super Famicon Classic, they brought back Panel de Pon out of the thousands they could've picked.

If anything, the time to be vocal is now. We just need as many people on board as possible.
 
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I just got in an argument on a Discord group, a completely one-sided one mind you, where half the server basically was yelling at me for having the audacity to continue supporting Lip even though she's a spirit. Because that's a hard deconfirm. Apparently.

I hate this mindset so many Smash fans have where unpopular "underdog" picks don't "deserve" to be in the game while at the same time continuing to parrot that characters like Steve from that hideous, disgustingly overrated sandbox nightmare should have been in the game much earlier. I really, honestly hate it.


Here's the REAL final part of Wa's series.
 
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smashkirby

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I just got in an argument on a Discord group, a completely one-sided one mind you, where half the server basically was yelling at me for having the audacity to continue supporting Lip even though she's a spirit. Because that's a hard deconfirm. Apparently.

I hate this mindset so many Smash fans have where unpopular "underdog" picks don't "deserve" to be in the game while at the same time continuing to parrot that characters like Steve from that hideous, disgustingly overrated sandbox nightmare should have been in the game much earlier. I really, honestly hate it.
And this is sort of my slight gripe with the 3rd party characters lately. The fact that Nintendo going a bit overboard on them. I mean, all the more power to those who support more recent 1st party characters/3rd parties in general, but they don't need to shoot down retro/obscure underdog picks the way they do.

These days, I can understand why some would want to limit Smash fighters to only Nintendo characters because I know I want to see a fighter from each Nintendo IP no matter how obscure they are. If this keeps up, we're going to have people who would yell at us for wanting a Pilotwings character such as Lark or Kiwi, Lip from Panel de Pon, Ryota Hayami from Wave Race, and Akari Hayami from 1080 Snowboarding (just to name a few) because they're 'garbage characters' because their series wasn't super popular.


Here's the REAL final part of Wa's series.
Well, this series has come a long way... really hoping it won't end here completely.
 

Taigiry

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Well, first of all, Happy New Year everyone.

I just got in an argument on a Discord group, a completely one-sided one mind you, where half the server basically was yelling at me for having the audacity to continue supporting Lip even though she's a spirit. Because that's a hard deconfirm. Apparently.
Why are you even wasting your time with those people? Just let them live in their own echo chamber and move on. Every argument they might have can be shot down with a single counter-argument: Sakurai does what Sakurai does, plain and simple. Those kind of Smash "fans" just keep making up arbitrary rules because they never learned from history and probably never will.

Smash is Nintendo only? Enter Sonic and Snake in Brawl.
Lucas and Mewtwo had trophies in Smash 4, so they can't become DLC fighters, right? Guess I'm playing a bootleg then, because I have them in my game.
No company can have more than one fighter? Capcom has Megaman and Ryu.
No third party franchise can have more than one guy? Ryu and Ken say hi. Also Simon and Richter.
Ridley will never be in Smash due to being too big and Sakurai being hesitant? Guess who made it in after all.

On that note, Atlus is owned by Sega, meaning Joker is technically a Sega character. Guess he gotta be canceled due to us having Sonic already.

And this is sort of my slight gripe with the 3rd party characters lately. The fact that Nintendo going a bit overboard on them.
I really feel the same way, of all the Smash 4 DLC, only one was a Nintendo newcomer... and he was just some glorified ad for an upcoming game (and everyone being sick of Fire Emblem at that point didn't help either, especially with Roy also being a FE DLC character already). Everyone else was either a veteran or third party. Now I don't mind most third party guys, most of them are really iconic with a rich history behind them, not to mention Nintendo treating them better than their actual company (looking at you Megaman and Castlevania), but some I'm just iffy about and feels close to jumping the shark. The fact that the first Ultimate DLC character is another third party doesn't inspire much hope and I'm fearing a repeat of what happened with Smash 4. And this is coming from someone who likes the Persona games.
 

DOTBHDD

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I don't know if I fully like the direction the DLC has been going. It's standing a new standard for what a newcomer could be which is great. On the flip side, now any character that isn't in the limelight is a terrible suggestion. But we do get great characters.

But Sans? Why is he a popular suggestion? He's not even the protagonist. **** is so stupid. Then they call Lip or a Rhythm Heaven rep dumb.
 

N. Onymous

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Feel free to string me up in the town square for saying this, but I don't actually think an Undertale representative is a terrible idea. It definitely should not be Sans, though. I have a preliminary Undyne moveset sitting around waiting to be finished, and maybe one day I can post it so everyone can laugh at it.

It does suck, though. Smash Bros. feels like it's been going in all the wrong directions lately, but there's not much we can really do about that except vote with our wallet (although it's not likely to do a whole lot of monetary damage in the long-term--it's Smash, after all) and hope Lip gets a large-scale, financially successful resurgence sooner rather than later.
 
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Feel free to string me up in the town square for saying this, but I don't actually think an Undertale representative is a terrible idea. It definitely should not be Sans, though. I have a preliminary Undyne moveset sitting around waiting to be finished, and maybe one day I can post it so everyone can laugh at it.

It does suck, though. Smash Bros. feels like it's been going in all the wrong directions lately, but there's not much we can really do about that except vote with our wallet (although it's not likely to do a whole lot of monetary damage in the long-term--it's Smash, after all) and hope Lip gets a large-scale, financially successful resurgence sooner rather than later.
Even though I love the Smash Bros. series, I feel like every Smash game has it's problems whether it be with certain characters not being in the roster, the mechanics, or the lack of modes in the game. No Smash Bros. game is perfect, not even Ultimate with it bringing everyone back. But regardless of all of that, everybody should continue to support their favorite character until eventually they get in.
 
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N. Onymous

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Even though I love the Smash Bros. series, I feel like every Smash game has it's problems whether it be with certain characters not being in the roster, the mechanics, or the lack of modes in the game. No Smash Bros. game is perfect, not even Ultimate with it bringing everyone back. But regardless of all of that, everybody should continue to support their favorite character until eventually they get in.
And if that's what it takes, then that's what we'll do. The Lip community is getting larger every day, and sooner or later, our voice will be too big to be ignored. Then we'll finally get to see our fairies again.
 
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This thread keeps stopping sending me notifications and I dunno why...

Anyways, Happy New Year! That WArideshi final animation was amazing! The monologue of the villain is eerily true...

I echo some of the sentiments I am seeing in this thread. Sakurai fans just keep attacking everyone that wants classic Nintendo characters. It's like the world is upside down, what the heck?

So, I am all about voicing our opinions regarding Lip, but how do we do it?
 

N. Onymous

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I echo some of the sentiments I am seeing in this thread. Sakurai fans just keep attacking everyone that wants classic Nintendo characters. It's like the world is upside down, what the heck?

So, I am all about voicing our opinions regarding Lip, but how do we do it?
Between SSB4 and SSBU, Sakurai kind of went from this "heartless demon who sustains his youth off the tears of Smash fans" to "flawless angel who can do no wrong" in the eyes of the public...despite making many of the same managerial business decisions, and in my opinion outright mistakes, in both games. I don't know what happened either. Snake, Wolf, and the Icies couldn't possibly have that much pull on their own...right? (I'm even ballsy enough to bet actual money on most of the people complaining about people having support for retro Nintendo characters being exactly the same people who bawled and wailed when the Ice Climbers were cut from Super Smash Bros. 4.)

As for supporting Lip, just continue what you've been doing. Keep making petitions, keep making polls, keep making fan art. Write stories about the fairies, make fan games exploring the universe and characters of Panel de Pon (and Lip!). If you've got a knack for animation, then follow in Warideshi's footsteps and make those. Do whatever you can to say, as loud as you can, that you love these characters, that seeing them come back would just about make...not just your day, probably your entire decade. This is what we've been doing for the past few years. Slowly but surely it's working, and we're swaying more and more people over to our side. Not to brag, but I honestly think Lip's fan base is almost as devoted and passionate as Takamaru's at this point, if not even more so--and that means that we've got the resources to make our campaign successful. If not in SSBU, then just maybe in SSB6.

There I go with that optimism again. Oh well. I take after the characters I support, I guess!

Oh, and I can't stress this enough: Don't be angry about it. You can vent if things don't going your way (like I did just a few posts ago in fact), you can be as indignant as you want about the Tetris Attack reskin--and if you ask me, that indignation is very much justified, for several reasons--but if this is all you do when you show your support for Lippy, our community is going to come across to outsiders as a troupe of immature brats who throw tantrums when they don't get what they want. We have had brushes with this in the past...I'll freely admit I'm responsible for a lot of them. Obviously, this is the last thing diehard fans of a little fairy girl want associated with their fan base. You can say there's no such thing as bad publicity all you want, but think about it for a moment. We want to come off as a group that's welcoming and accepting of newcomers, right? That's one of the best ways to grow our numbers.
 
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I just got in an argument on a Discord group, a completely one-sided one mind you, where half the server basically was yelling at me for having the audacity to continue supporting Lip even though she's a spirit. Because that's a hard deconfirm. Apparently.

I hate this mindset so many Smash fans have where unpopular "underdog" picks don't "deserve" to be in the game while at the same time continuing to parrot that characters like Steve from that hideous, disgustingly overrated sandbox nightmare should have been in the game much earlier. I really, honestly hate it.
I do not think it has to do anything about "deserving" or "undeserving" so much as the fact that it was said Joker is an example of the direction that the rest of DLC will take, which is probably surprising third-party characters. Supposedly the next DLC character is
Erdrick from Dragon Quest III
. Regardless, it seems it will be all third-parties. Keep in mind all of the DLC newcomers for Smash 4 were third-party except Corrin (who was put in to promote Fates's international release).

I am still uncertain though whether spirits are hard de-confirms. However, I do think that they were made with the intention of being consolation prizes for more obscure characters (along with Assist Trophies and Mii costumes). Lip in particular has a full Mii costume, that is done rather well.

Unless there is a second round of DLC, I would not get your hopes up for Lip as DLC since it seems this set is going to be all third-party. I would be very surprised if we get a Nintendo character as DLC after Piranha Plant.

It does suck, though. Smash Bros. feels like it's been going in all the wrong directions lately, but there's not much we can really do about that except vote with our wallet (although it's not likely to do a whole lot of monetary damage in the long-term--it's Smash, after all) and hope Lip gets a large-scale, financially successful resurgence sooner rather than later.
How is Smash Bros. going in the wrong direction? The base roster choices were fantastic. Ridley and K. Rool were the biggest names left for core Nintendo fans (Ridley and K. Rool were the two most wanted characters for Smash Bros. for the last ten years, Ridley, being among the Top 3 most wanted since at least 2006). Inkling and Isabelle were the two biggest Nintendo characters created during the 2010's. Simon Belmont is a gaming icon, and a character that is tied closely to the NES and SNES. Daisy, Chrom, Dark Samus, Ken, and Richter are all popular characters within their respective franchises.

Read the link in my signature when you have the time. It goes into detail about each of the character choices.

The only two I can understand being upset about is Incineroar and Piranha Plant. However, for Incineroar, keep in mind the Pokemon Company more or less demands Sakurai to put in a Pokemon newcomer for each game, though gives Sakurai the choice of deciding which Pokemon to use to promote the current generation (this was Greninja for Smash 4, and Incineroar for Ultimate).

For Piranha Plant, Sakurai wanted to go a different direction for the "shocking" Nintendo newcomer this game. Typically, they were tied to a particular hardware line (Mr. Game & Watch for the Game & Watch line of handhelds, ROB was a very old peripheral and had a recent at the time playable appearant in Mario Kart DS, Wii Fit Trainer for the Wii Balance Board, Duck Hunt to represent the NES light gun games). With Piranha Plant even though he was not the kind of character that would typically get into Smash Bros., Sakurai felt it was also a character that very few would not know who it is (Piranha Plant ironically is probably among the most well-known characters on the roster).


I echo some of the sentiments I am seeing in this thread. Sakurai fans just keep attacking everyone that wants classic Nintendo characters. It's like the world is upside down, what the heck?

So, I am all about voicing our opinions regarding Lip, but how do we do it?
Ten years ago, I made the thesis that Smash 4 should mostly look to expanding outside veteran series (series that already have playable characters on the roster) for most of the newcomers. I noticed aside from Ridley, K. Rool, and Bowser Jr., most of the newcomers people were asking for at the time were either side characters in their respective series or one-shots. I thought expanding the roster to series not currently represented on the roster would serve two purposes:
1. Give new universes for Smash Bros. fans to be exposed to in the series.
2. Would also give interesting takes on possible movesets.

The new series I suggested were Punch-Out, Golden Sun, Custom Robo, Legendary Starfy, Advance/Famicom Wars, Sin & Punishment, and yes Panel de Pon. I also suggested Mega Man as a third-party newcomer addition. I would have also said Animal Crossing and Mii had Sakurai not given an indication in post-Brawl interviews that he felt characters from those series were not suited for the roster (he said Animal Crossing was "too pacifist" and I forgot what he said about Miis)

However, during the interim I made that thesis, all of those series either went into hiatus (Custom Robo, Legendary Starfy, Advance Wars. Panel de Pon) or had their latest installment bomb or extremely underperform (Golden Sun and Sin & Punishment). The only series to receive a new installment and sell extremely well was Punch-Out.

Ironically, this was actually the direction Sakurai ended up going with for Smash 4. Animal Crossing, Wii Fit, Punch-Out, Mii, Xenoblade, and Duck Hunt (NES light gun games) were all added to the roster. Only four veteran series received newcomers in Smash 4, which were Super Mario, Pokemon, Fire Emblem, and Kid Icarus. Lots of third-party series were added to the roster too (Mega Man, Pac-Man, Street Fighter, Final Fantasy, and Bayonetta).

With Ultimate, they simply went with the biggest names that were left at this point period (at least for non-echos on the base roster).

For most of the complaints about character exclusions for this game, it is actually a bit bizarre this time. Characters like Isaac, Geno, Skull Kid, Waluigi, and Ashley are all either retro characters at this point or side characters within their own franchises (or in the case of the latter two just part of an ensemble cast and do not have a particularly important role in the plot over the other characters in the ensemble cast). Sure there are still a few veteran series critical characters left (Bandana Dee and Dixie Kong), but overall its weird to torch Sakurai for not including characters who have not had a major role in a game in at least 15 years.

As mentioned earlier, the problem with characters such as Lip is not only is the character retro (even Furil's game appearance was 15 years ago), but many of the C/D-list Nintendo characters have not had a game release since the 2000's. Custom Robo's last release was 2006. Panel de Pon's was 2007. Advance Wars's was 2008. Legendary Starfy's was 2008. Golden Sun's was 2010. Sin & Punishment's was 2009. Chibi Robo did receive a new game in 2015, but with the stipulation to the fanbase that the game needed to perform well or else Chibi Robo was finished as a a series, and you can guess what happened with that game.

Lip, Isaac, Saki, Ray Mk III, and Chibi Robo all received fantastic Mii costumes despite most of them being quite low in character requests. I was personally pleased with this as it finally gives those minor Nintendo franchises a shout out even though many of them might very well be in permanent hiatus.

Personally at this point, I am very pleased with the Smash Bros. roster. Ridley and Castlevania being added to the roster and every veteran returning for one more time are miracles in my book.

As for your original stipulation that people are attacked for wanting "classic Nintendo characters". It is not so much that, but rather you want characters that are outside the accepted purview among the "core" Smash Bros. fanbase. Geno is certainly an obscure character outside core Smash Bros. fans (he is a one-shot character from over 20 years ago), yet if you suggest him not making it in is understandable, you would be attacked by those same people who are attacking you for wanting Lip.

Personally, as with Isaac fans, the best shot for Lip going forward is actually the "proper" resurrection of her home series. Panel de Pon needs a new game (not just a side mode in Animal Crossing). The last fully new game for Panel de Pon was all the way back in 2007. You cannot expect Lip to make it in when her own series is in hiatus.
 
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N. Onymous

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When I say Smash Bros is going in the wrong direction I mean it's getting to be too commercial. The only newcomers who seem to be considered even remotely seriously anymore are characters from recent games, characters from well known and extremely popular series, and characters from whichever third party company paid Nintendo enough. Series like Castlevania and Splatoon absolutely do deserve to be represented in Smash Bros.
as does Dragon Quest
for their significance to Nintendo and its history alone, but something like Persona 5? A very recent game that isn't even available on Nintendo hardware? That's selling out if you ask me.
 
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I can appreciate a realistic viewpoint. Keeps us all in reality and prevents us from getting too excited or even worse, entitled.
Yeah, but...there still needs to be a fine line between "maybe something nice will happen" and "why the fudge would anything nice ever happen??".

Being depressing is just as bad as being overly optimistic, especially if they just throw their arms and give up.

Anyway, the main thing is, Japan-only characters are in an awkward position right now since unlike Fire Emblem, they don't have the star power that would guarantee taking the risk to export them, and also mostly aren't in games that were seen by Westerners back in the days of the NES/SNES, so they don't have worldwide nostalgia factor going for them either. Even Starfy, who barely even made much of a splash (no pun intended) when his last game got brought over. But hey, he's no longer the only AT that can be hit, who's laughing now?

The best thing to do in the meantime is try and convince Nintendo to eventually put the games of said characters onto their online service, even Twinbee is on it. Doesn't matter if they're not translated, that never stopped anything.

By now, we know what Westerners' viewpoints on this matter are, but how do the Japanese fans feel about this? Do they just go "It can't be helped" and move on?
 

N. Onymous

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It's probably exactly that honestly. Japanese culture puts a lot of emphasis on grinning and bearing it; to my understanding it's because if you complain, you risk making a fool of yourself in public. At most you'll get a few passive lamentations on Twitter or some angry 2chan threads. International fans don't have those hangups and complain loudly if their preferred character is an Assist Trophy or just outright not there. Whether or not this is better...well, you can decide for yourself. It does let Sora/Nintendo know the lay of the land in that region much better, though.
 
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When I say Smash Bros is going in the wrong direction I mean it's getting to be too commercial. The only newcomers who seem to be considered even remotely seriously anymore are characters from recent games, characters from well known and extremely popular series, and characters from whichever third party company paid Nintendo enough. Series like Castlevania and Splatoon absolutely do deserve to be represented in Smash Bros.
as does Dragon Quest
for their significance to Nintendo and its history alone, but something like Persona 5? A very recent game that isn't even available on Nintendo hardware? That's selling out if you ask me.
All you wrote is that you are upset that Lip was not chosen in particular.

characters from recent games, characters from well known and extremely popular series,
That has been 80% of characters that ever made it into Smash Bros. The exceptions to this are the "shocking" or retro newcomer additions (Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch, Pit at the time. ROB, Wii Fit Trainer, and now Piranha Plant).

Also, you wrote this:

and characters from whichever third party company paid Nintendo enough.
Snake (whom was originally added in Brawl as a personal favor for Kojima) and arguably Bayonetta (there is evidence to suggest that she may have been decided prior to the announcement of the ballot) are the only two this might even remotely apply to. Sonic and Mega Man were the most wanted characters for their respective debut titles, and Pac-Man, Ryu, Cloud, and Simon are all gaming icons. Ken and Richter are popular characters within their own series that are clones of characters already on the roster.

Even with Snake and Bayonetta, Snake was still a gaming icon (and Snake was among the most wanted characters for Ultimate), and Bayonetta supposedly won the Smash Ballot in Europe. With Joker, it could very well be that Sakurai and Nintendo is looking to expand the people who are normally interested in Smash Bros. Joker is certainly the greenest third-party character ever to make it in (he is only two months older than Incineroar, who is the most contemporary character on the roster), but it could very well be an exception rather than a rule, and the fact that Persona itself has a cycling cast like many other RPG series, so they simply went with the protagonist of the newest installment.

Lip's problem is that she needs a new game. Panel de Pon is certainly viable in today's world considering puzzle games are among the most popular genre for the mobile gaming market.

You cannot fault Sakurai and his team for not including Lip on the roster, especially when she received pretty good treatment for a character that made her last proper appearance (I am counting Furil as an extension of Lip), 15 years ago. A well made Mii costume is a great win for the character especially considering the character's background. Heck, Lip's spirit even has a role within the adventure mode of Ultimate. Lip is even featured as a profile icon (something impressive for a character that is not an Assist Trophy or part of a veteran series).

This is all extremely good treatment for the character. You cannot complain that Sakurai and his team did not do Lip well. She got:
1. A well done Mii costume (the only other characters that got full Mii costumes were characters that were Assist Trophies or from games that were released recently).
2. A profile icon (again the only other characters that got this that were not an Assist Trophy or part of a veteran series, was Chorus Kids and I think Shantae and Diskun).
3. An active role in World of Light.

Lip's problem is that Panel de Pon needs to come back. It needs a full new game. Little Mac got a new game release that ended up being both critically and financially successful, and as a result he ended up being among the few Assist Trophies promoted to playable status, even though most of his popularity is Western.

Puzzle League/Panel de Pon has not a had a stand alone release (I am not counting the DSiWare stripped down port) since 2007. Animal Crossing Puzzle League was the closest thing to life the series has had this decade.

As I said before, a new Panel de Pon/Puzzle League is certainly viable, and Nintendo could release a mobile installment to the series or even an installment for the Switch. The 25th anniversary to the series is coming up (it will be in 2020), so hopefully Nintendo does something to celebrate it. There are options with Panel de Pon, and it is not a series that needs a notable budget for a new installment like Sin & Punishment, Custom Robo, or even Advance/Famicom Wars would.

Lip got the best treatment she could hope for in Ultimate. The only other thing that would have been plausible for her, is becoming an Assist Trophy. Even if this game had 15 unique newcomers for the base roster like Brawl and Smash 4 did, she still most likely would not have made it in. Lip is not a character in a good position. She is a Japan-only retro character with middling popularity even among the Japanese portion to the core fanbase. However, Sakurai and his team still took measures to give the character more exposure.

Yet despite this, the several Lip fans in this thread are bitter that Sakurai and his team did not make her part of the roster while ignoring the fact only the most elite of newcomer choices (Ridley and K. Rool being the single most wanted newcomers for the last ten years and main villains for their respective franchises, Inking and Isabelle the two biggest Nintendo characters created during the 2010's, and Simon a gaming icon in general) were able to make the roster this time.

I am a very big fan of characters such as Pico (F-Zero) and Leif (Fire Emblem) and know they will most likely never be playable in the Smash Bros. series, yet I was absolutely thrilled that they both got event matches with references to obscure details about those two characters (like Death Wind playing for Pico's spirit battle). Heck, you even get to control Pico's F-Zero machine (the Wild Goose) in this game's adventure mode. This is actually the first time that Leif ever made an appearance in Smash Bros. I am extremely grateful for what Pico received, and that Leif appeared at all (Thracia 776 is the only Fire Emblem game that does not have a remix or track rip in Ultimate). There is more to Smash Bros. than just a spot on the roster, and for some of the Nintendo characters I really like, they are simply too obscure to ever warrant being on the roster, so I am happy with what happened with Pico and Leif in Ultimate.

The way going forward for Lip is not pounding and cursing Sakurai and his team for things out of their control (Lip being an unknown character outside Japan and not even well known within Japan, and her home series being in hiatus), but rather letting Nintendo know you want a new installment to Panel de Pon/Puzzle League.
 
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2020 25th Anniversary?
Looking forward to that, playing a lot of the games. (not that I will "not" do it this year either, but hey)
I'm really hoping there will be something soon!

It's been kind of ****ty to be a fan of Panel De Pon and F-Zero these last decades.
Hopefully both will rise soon.
 
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Again, if letting Nintendo know we want a new game is what it takes, then it's what we'll do. In a way though, I'm afraid that they'll take away exactly the wrong message from it and end up making Kirby's Puzzle League or something. Too many people think you can just remove the fairy characters and their world from the game and not remove a huge part of what makes this series what it is, when...that just isn't true.
 
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Honestly, a Super Smash Puzzle League would be preeetty dope if you ask me.
The thing that made me fall in love with the series in the first place was the first game I was exposed to. Pokémon Puzzle League, and the premise of getting to use 3 types of Pokémon was pretty dope, and made me love the concept.

Still, I do agree that the fairies should be part of the game in some way. It could be a Panel De Pon for all I care. All I know is that no matter the concept, as long as the formula which I fell in love with returns, then I'm fine. Charm, presentation, gameplay and fun! That's all I need, and a Lip in particular return in any aspect is a plus in my book.
 

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I'm sorry if I'm a bit late to say this, but can I just say that the final episode of WA's PdP series was... unusually powerful? Honestly, I almost shed a tear at 'Mr. Game and Watch' putting down Lip, explaining to her the whole thing about her (and her cast) getting replaced by a more well-known brand at every turn, as well as Cordelia's departure.
 

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Just coming through to vent:

If that (credible) rumor about Steve being DLC is true I'm not only not buying this game, I'm not touching another Smash Bros. game. Ever.

The series will be dead to me. The series will be dead to me because if Steve is there then it proves that the current direction of Smash Bros. is turning it into a pile of sellout garbage that only exists anymore to promote what's new and popular. Someone else can support Lip for SSB6 if they want to be disappointed that badly. I'm not going to be putting myself through that again.
 
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Just coming through to vent:

If that (credible) rumor about Steve being DLC is true I'm not only not buying this game, I'm not touching another Smash Bros. game. Ever.

The series will be dead to me. The series will be dead to me because if Steve is there then it proves that the current direction of Smash Bros. is turning it into a pile of sellout garbage that only exists anymore to promote what's new and popular. Someone else can support Lip for SSB6 if they want to be disappointed that badly. I'm not going to be putting myself through that again.
Uh, Minecraft's popular and all, but it's hardly the hot new thing these days (that would be Fortnite). Really, you can't deny how impressive it is that it maintained such popularity for such a long time when most non-multiplayer focused games struggle to do so long after launch, regardless of your personal feelings towards the game as a whole.

For reference, Minecraft came in 2011, and subsisted almost entirely on ports of that one game since, with only one spin-off to it's name in Story Mode. Hardly what I'd consider a simple fad.
 
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N. Onymous

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Minecraft is still extremely popular and sells extremely well. It has a legitimate chance of getting a playable character as DLC. That's what worries me.
 
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