The Duck Hunt Competitive Smash 4 Thread

[Con0rrrr]

Hello everyone! I've loved Duck Hunt since I was little so the character was a huge treat to me!

I absolutely cannot wait to play as him, and judging from early impressions.... he looks phenomenal!!!

As a competitive player, I cannot wait to main him, and will do all that I can to keep him near the top

What will Go in this thread:​

1. Moveset Analysis: Post your own analysis of individual attacks, and best ways to use them. As well as who the best characters are to use such moves on. This can also include deciding which customs to use.
2. Potential Tech: Duck Hunt Dog is such a fresh character, there's no doubt we will fine some interesting ways to use him. So this will also be a place to discuss how to pull off such skills.
3. Hitbox/Damage info: These, and all other things of the sort can be posted on their own of course. But I recommend posting them here for easy access
4. And more!

Whenever there is a great post that should be added here, just PM me the link, and I will do the best I can to organize it up here.

I should have my own analysis soon, thanks guys!

Custom Moves:

 

[Chauzu]

Nice!

These are some useful links you can add that I've made about Duck Hunt.

Custom Moves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXwoOo_0QQ8

Using Cans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EaCsdah0I4

I'll also post my initial Duck Hunt reactions that I posted earlier:

PROS
- Projectile game. Three projectiles: Can and Clay Pigeon are great and Wild Gunman is less so, but has little lag to it and can help with approaching.
- Recovery. Duck Hunt is always getting back to the stage unless ko'd or gimped. Custom moves brings variety as well.
- Decent speed. It's not a Ganondorf, but not a Sheik. But it has the speed it needs.
- Useful smashes. All smashes are quick and strong and possible KO moves. Forward smash in particular has great range.
- Nair is a very good air move, great priority and quick.
- All tilts are decently quick.
- Did I say Cans, Clay Pigeon and Wild Gunman? The potential is huge.

CONS
- There is landing lag on ALL aerial moves. The exception is fair, but you need to jump to move after landing, you won't be able to walk/run for a while. Better than nothing!
- Neutral game is generally lacking range, espescially the tilts.
- No throw is able to kill at a reasonable % as far as I've seen so far.
- Lack of kill moves. Only smashes are going to kill until opponents are 150%+.
- Lack of priority. Nair is great but other than that it's lacking.

About Custom Moves I'd also like to add that I think the 3rd Down Special, Giant Gunmen, might be the best. It acts as a shield for Duck Hunt to utilize its projectiles and since it's so slow at shooting you are able to make Gunmen > Clay Pigeon / Can combos.

 

[CourageHound]

A few things I'd like to add.

Something I haven't seen many people mention are utilizing cans defensively to escape pressure. Specifically under pressure or being juggled. Similar to snake from brawl, DHD can utilize his can to protect him from pressure while hiding in shield. The easiest way to set this up is by kicking a can while your opponent is a safe distance a away. Proceed to position yourself in front of the can and you now have a get out of jail free card. If your opponent decides to rush you down with an attack, you can hold shield while the under pressure and make the can go forward. Once the can makes contact with the opponent, it will detonate, blowing them away while you were safe in your shield. If you think your opponent will grab, you can always retreating pivot grab or run behind the can.

Other Approches: While outside of his projectiles, DHD does have a few more options. His dash speed is pretty good so approaching with run -> shield/spotdodge can be effective option if you stop right outside your opponent's grab range. This can but effective due to large titls and jab that would let you punish your opponents' option. However use this tactic sparingly and with because it is predictable(if used frequently) and might not be the best option based on the MU.

Rising short hop dair has the potential for a very good approaching move. If dair is used while rising from a short hop, it will have 0 landing lag since it auto cancels and you can do anything out of it. It can be used as a good cross up move on you opponent's shield as well to get behind them. Note that dair has two hits and can hit your opponent if they drop shield on reaction to the first hit. Once behind them you can either turn around grab if your opponent is still shielding or use up tilt to go for a combo. This combination would look something like u-tilt x1 or 2 -> pivot grab or shield grab their decent once you stop up tilting -> d-throw or u-throw based on percent. This only works if your opponent doesnt jump, but all that does is lessen their options while giving you more. Note it's always safer to just simply run past your opponent if they have a strong OoS option. Know what your opponent can do, and be safe.

Escaping Pressure: Now what would you do if our little doggy was backed into a corner against an opponent that out ranges him? Well it so happens that DHD's vertical acceleration(out of his jumps and fast fall) is pretty good. You can jump over your opponent's head and kick a can from above. This is putting an object between your self and the enemy to negotiate an escape.

You can also run towards and off the ledge and jumping return with a clay pigeon. The multiple shots of the disc being fired will cover you long enough to get past your opponent.

Landing: So you find yourself being juggled. DHD's horizontal air speed is about average so drifting away might not be a viable option in certain situations. First things first, when being juggled, it's imperative you save your second jump. It gives you many more options to escape.

F-air/f-air: Good options to use to fend of frontal approaches. If you are to land with an aaerial, this would probably be your best option due to it's range combined with good spacing.

N-air: quick and effective option that covers you on all sides decently. Lag on landing however, so remember to land behind your opponent's shield if they are waiting for your landing on the ground. You can attempt to remedy the lag by initiating the nair at the height of which it will auto cancel while falling.

D-air: Fast falling with this seems to be an ok option. Not the best since it's range on the sides seems to be lacking but way more vertical range than nair. Try to auto cancel.

Air dodge: Another ok option to fast fall with, but only good if your opponent is taking to the air to chase you. Bad lag on landing, so use wisely.

Can: You can use can to cover yourself while falling. If you find a situation where you just cannot escape your opponent's close proximity juggles, you can throw this out and blow both of you up. May not seem appealing, but way better than continuing to be punished by your opponent. After a while, your opponent my be discouraged from jumping after you for fear of being blown up.

B-reverse cans: By using neutral B and immediately pushing the opposite direction you are moving you can reverse your momentum to the new direction. Useful to juke your opponent while trying to land.

Ledge: If all else fails, you can try to simply drift, air dodge, or up B to the edge and work you way back to re-claiming stage control.

Edge Guarding: I have yet to explore this myself outside of throwing out cans. However outside of aerials, all your projectiles are great for doing this. Do note that gunmans placed in the air will fall slowly a couple feet, but then hover in place and shoot. Be creative. Nair or dair(if you are precise enough) could possibly be a good tool to catch some recoveries.

 

[Chauzu]

Very informitive post! I haven't thought about cans like that before, that's very nice actually.

Dair is that good eh? I must say it's one of the moves I haven't used that much yet, will need to test it more.

 

[CourageHound]

Yes testing is certainly needed. Though his moveset does seem very interesting/useful all around.

 

[fill]

Here is a Duck Hunt / ROB video, it gives a good idea of a fast paced, projectile Duck Hunt.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Wow, now I am interested to see how a skilled melee character would deal with a skilled DHD projectile player.

In addition to a compendium of how to play as DHD effectively, we should also have a repository of information for how to play efffectively against DHD.

 

[WabbitSeason]

If you're using custom moves, the can option where it just explodes when you press B is pretty overpowered. And also, if people can master multitasking movement/smash attacks/etc. with that 9-shot can, it'll be a force to reckon with.

 

[Arcadenik]

Here is a Duck Hunt / ROB video, it gives a good idea of a fast paced, projectile Duck Hunt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkGk5S3nIas&feature=youtu.be

That was amazing!!! A couple observations... the clay pigeons seem to block projectiles but the wild gunmen don't (unless they are giants).

Loved to see one of my Brawl mains (ROB) and one of my future mains (DHD) battling it out. That was exciting!!!

 

[Con0rrrr]

Im working on adding some stuff.

Bu one problem I see with regular cans are the inability to change ther direction. If I kick one to the right. And my opponent and I switch stage control (he is now left, I am right) the can will continue to move the the right now towards me.

Is there a way to relocate the can direction.

 

[fill]

And also, if people can master multitasking movement/smash attacks/etc. with that 9-shot can, it'll be a force to reckon with.

i will master the can

Im working on adding some stuff.

Bu one problem I see with regular cans are the inability to change ther direction. If I kick one to the right. And my opponent and I switch stage control (he is now left, I am right) the can will continue to move the the right now towards me.

Is there a way to relocate the can direction.

i think if you keep the can on one side it limits them and takes away there options

 

[Arcadenik]

Im working on adding some stuff.

Bu one problem I see with regular cans are the inability to change ther direction. If I kick one to the right. And my opponent and I switch stage control (he is now left, I am right) the can will continue to move the the right now towards me.

Is there a way to relocate the can direction.

Ummm... if DHD kicked a can to the right... and the opponent went to the left side of the stage, I think you are supposed to do a dash attack to make the can fly to the left side... at least that's what the "how to use the cans" video seem to imply.

I assume the can will still fly to the right if you shoot it even after you made it move to the left side.

 

[CourageHound]

I'm pretty sure default gunman will stop any projectile that collides with other hitboxes instead of going through them. However default gunman obviously has less durability than giants. Despite this, I still prefer default over giants because it's a balance of hitting your opponent reliably and protection.

I will provide a video of me using some of DHD's tools later today.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

The cans are likely going to be Duck Hunt's most useful tool, and learning them will be vital to competitive success. Think of them in the same vain as Peach's Turnips or link's Bombs, hard to use but so so so so important if you want to be an effective force and win matches. Because you can use them to zone, space, and provide pressure both defensively and offensively.

TS;DR:
Learn to zone
LEARN TO ZONE
DID I SAY LEARN TO ZONE WELL I'LL SAY IT AGAIN LEARN TO ZONE.

 

[Jigglymaster]

CONS
- Lack of kill moves. Only smashes are going to kill until opponents are 150%+.

His Up Air kills mad early. Down or Up throw will send the opponent straight up, you can't combo into it at high % but it gives you the opportunity to hit and kill them with Up Air. Should kill at like around 100%, I forgot how much it was when I killed with it on Zero's stream, but trust me it kills early. Down Throw to U air also combos at early %.

 

[Arcadenik]

Does DHD have any meteor smashes or moves with sweet spots?

 

[Chauzu]

If you're using custom moves, the can option where it just explodes when you press B is pretty overpowered. And also, if people can master multitasking movement/smash attacks/etc. with that 9-shot can, it'll be a force to reckon with.

All of the can custom moves are interesting. What I fear about the immediately exploding can is that you can't keep it around, and that feels like a shame. Also, Clay Pigeon kinda has a similair role already with range. But if you're playing an agressive Duck Hunt it might work and have the 2nd Clay Pigeon that flies up into the air to cover a lot of ground while approaching.

Bu one problem I see with regular cans are the inability to change ther direction. If I kick one to the right. And my opponent and I switch stage control (he is now left, I am right) the can will continue to move the the right now towards me.

Is there a way to relocate the can direction.

There is a can custom move that's called Zig Zag and each time you touch the can it moves to the other way. Haven't tried it yet but it might be useful.

His Up Air kills mad early. Down or Up throw will send the opponent straight up, you can't combo into it at high % but it gives you the opportunity to hit and kill them with Up Air. Should kill at like around 100%, I forgot how much it was when I killed with it on Zero's stream, but trust me it kills early. Down Throw to U air also combos at early %.

I need to test this! Thanks for letting me know.

Ummm... if DHD kicked a can to the right... and the opponent went to the left side of the stage, I think you are supposed to do a dash attack to make the can fly to the left side... at least that's what the "how to use the cans" video seem to imply.

I assume the can will still fly to the right if you shoot it even after you made it move to the left side.

Well you can do it, but the can flies really long then so it's not useful for that sort of thing.

What you can do is kick the can from the other side. Then it will move to the other side when you press B.

But tbh, the can is only good while airborne, it barely moves on the ground. When the can is on the ground the point, imo, is for it to lie around and be useful when opportunity arises.

Does DHD have any meteor smashes or moves with sweet spots?

Dair is a spike so yes. And it is a sweetspot.

Feels good to land!

 

[ElectricCitrus]

One can strat could be to leave it on the stage and then when you knock and opponent off you use the can to gimp their recovery.

 

[Paper Maribro]

I've been thinking about this and having seen that R.O.B match and another one with Sheik, it looks like playing a Duck Hunt is gonna require aggressive play. Seeing as the Dog will always be able to outrange you, characters that rush in and are fast on the ground are going to be the key to countering him. It's a highly risky strategy but I can't see how trying to be defensive is going to work against him with all of his options to control you and space you.

I'd say Little Mac and Sheik are gonna be the go to character to take him on from my point of view. I haven't seen enough of the other fast, takedown characters to know how they'd fair but to me, Little Mac's side B is going to pivotal in a clash between the two of them.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Another hard matchup may be the spacies depending on how fast they play/how hard they nerf. As far as easy matchups go: Megaman, Kirby (on the ground).

 

[TTTTTsd]

If I may ask, from what I've seen so far and read, I'm not good at discerning this kind of thing, how would Dr. Mario or Mario fare against this character? He looks pretty keepaway and radical, but IDK how'd I'd deal with him using either of my mains.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

I think it'll be a tough battle for Mario and the Doc because they can't really rush in, and fall victim to easy zoning/projectile gimping. Honestly I think your best bet would be to try and get the jump oh DHD by throwing out fireballs or pills right at the match is beginning.

Or bait him into coming close because Mario/Doc's f-smash is fantastic at punishing. (at least in melee).

 

[TTTTTsd]

I feel like it'll be a BIT better with Doc IMO. He's got better normals for general approaching and I think Pills assert a more dominant stage control. I know I have to be careful of Neutral B cause that can break combos simply be being there, there's a lot to watch out for. So I might switch to Doc for this MU if I don't just use Doc alone.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Good plan, I think the big thing with facing a Duck Hunt Dog would be never underestimating what tricks they can pull. The cans alone are just sooooo versatile. Tread lightly.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah with Doc I'll have to take control early on with Pills and try and force offstage. BAir still has semi-spike angle or something close to it with Doc, and it's in general better than Mario's. It's gonna be tough but I'm sure it's possible. I could also switch to one of my planned subs, ideally Falcon. He might be better, but I want to use the Marios the most in this game.

 

[Jigglymaster]

When I was at Ct Zero's place the other day playing the game he said that Villager is going to hard counter DHD, mostly due to the fact that Villager shuts down all projectile users with pocket. It's been so important of a counter that a lot of people w/ the game are learning to play Villager just for that sole reason, so we'll need to either have a backup character to beat villager ourselves or just learn how to beat Villager w/ Duck Hunt Dog.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Yeah with Doc I'll have to take control early on with Pills and try and force offstage. BAir still has semi-spike angle or something close to it with Doc, and it's in general better than Mario's. It's gonna be tough but I'm sure it's possible. I could also switch to one of my planned subs, ideally Falcon. He might be better, but I want to use the Marios the most in this game.

Maybe try an aerial approach because he doesn't seem to possess as much aerial control as he does on the ground. Try and force the duck hunt into the air and then play off Mario/Doc's decent airgame to try and establish some control. The fact Mario goes low and slides in his dash might also be handy for avoiding cans and clays as I saw Sheik's low run get underneath the bouncing can and the sort of floaty clay.

 

[Chauzu]

When I was at Ct Zero's place the other day playing the game he said that Villager is going to hard counter DHD, mostly due to the fact that Villager shuts down all projectile users with pocket. It's been so important of a counter that a lot of people w/ the game are learning to play Villager just for that sole reason, so we'll need to either have a backup character to beat villager ourselves or just learn how to beat Villager w/ Duck Hunt Dog.

Can Villager even pocket the can? It's not your ordinary item.

Also, pocketing Gunmen bullets will be hard as they are invisible.

Frisbee is the biggest problem but Duck Hunt can throw it and run up to it so Villager can't Pocket it and defend at the same time.

So yeah, I'm waiting to write any matchup off.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Villager can pocket Link's Final Smash, honestly any Dog mains should prepare for some form of difficulty. I wouldn't write it off though, even if he pockets a projectile DHD looks like he's got more than one projectile that he can shoot in successionto make up for it, really.

 

[WabbitSeason]

Villager can pocket Link's Final Smash, honestly any Dog mains should prepare for some form of difficulty. I wouldn't write it off though, even if he pockets a projectile DHD looks like he's got more than one projectile that he can shoot in successionto make up for it, really.

Villager just gets invincibility frames during his down-B, he doesn't actually pocket the Final Smash. But Villager's specials and projectiles are pretty ridiculous. Missile + slingshot + Pocket + Tree is a really tough combo.

 

[Arcadenik]

What if DHD players can play mind games with Villager players... tricking them into pocketing the weaker projectiles? Could it be pulled off successfully?

 

[CourageHound]

Here is some footage of me playing the other day. I'll break down some of the main things I did well and the main things I did wrong for one game. Note that this is by no means professional DHD play. It was the 2nd or 3rd time I actually held smash3Ds in my hands and had no prior practice other than quick friendlies matches(not to mention every match I had except this one I'm showcases, I played like butt). That and the controls are awkward and I was playing badly, etc. etc. Blah, blah #johns

Anyway, there are a few things I did in this one game I'd like to share and several errors I'd like to explain. I'm also very open to critique so, pleeeasse help us all get better at DHD.

http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/b/568315546 The match in question starts at 03:16:45


03:16:58 - Starting here where the MK starts attacking the can in an effort to launch it at me. To my knowledge(more testing is needed) the can will NOT explode if it comes in contact with DHD or if comes in contact with a hitbox that doesn't break it. Now the MK is pushing the can towards me in an effort to pressure me. This is flawed due to DHD's control over his can. My mistake was taking such a passive approach to this instead of exerting my own pressure in the form of a clay disc or gunman.

03:17:14 - This showcases the lag associated with Gunaman. It wasn't so bad that I couldn't say shield or spot dodge, but I did pick a bad time to use it.

03:17:36 - knocked into the air, I realise my opponent is fond of using nado to catch my landing, so I use falling nair to break it

03:17:46 - Abusing f-smash's range

03:18:17 - I surprised myself here. Seems d-smash and f-smash have VERY formidable range and can punish your opponent's wiffs. However if stale move negation is anything like it was in brawl, that means you want to use your kill moves sparingly until the time is right. Imo, DHD's best kill moves(Best first) D-smash, Can, u-air, f-smash, u-smash.

03:18:17 - Attempted can edge guard. Could have been proactive. Though I don't have the dexterity on 3ds to control can and aerial chase at the same time.

03:18:53 -> 03:18:56 - Notice how I used DHD's dexterity, jumps and fast fall air dodge to weave and evade around MK's nado and then respond with a pivot grab.

03:19:43 - Don't be bad like me and self destruct T-T

03:20:04 - An example of retreating behind the can

03:20:38 - An excellent example of using the can while hiding in shield. This simply yet effective tactic can be used in many ways that I will expand on later.

03:20:33 - In this game it seems extremely easy to mash out of grabs. This can make it hard to tak on the extra damage and to refresh your moves through pummeling. Keep that in mind.

03:21:20 - Here I toss a can to help me get back on stage. However, I pressed B a couple times too much and the can ended up on the platform, which didn't cover me much at all(except the possibility of him trying to jump I guess)

03:21:42 - Again I make the mistake of backing myself into a corner for no reason instead of applying my own projectile pressure. I could have easily summoned a gunman or disc that would've shot MK and blown up the can on him as well.

03:22:04 - Now this is REALLY interesting. I wasn't even positive this would work either, it just...did. If you had been paying attention, I kicked the can in a direction where I couldn't direct it towards MK at the moment. So I walked up to it, and down tilted it and the can flew behind me. I'm not sure if this works at a certain distance or if it had to be behind the can or what...more testing needed!! (Note this may also be achievable with down smash since the hit-boxes launch your target behind you without any specific spacing)


For the rest of the game, I got somewhat complacent and comfy with my lead, allowing my opponent to take advantage of that and build momentum. From their he began applying pressure and catching my bad landing options, approaches, and defensive options until he cleaned out the stock.

In general I could have been more proactive in general with my approaches, edge guarding, and neutral game(zoning). I don't think I threw out nearly enough discs or cans or applied enough pressure will my aerials or tilts, thus allowing my opponent to become comfortable and retaliate.

If you continue to watch the next game, my blatant lack of effective zoning really destroyed me. I feel DHD beats sword characters like Lucina if you can master zoning, but looses badly if you don't AND allow your opponent to stay in your grill. You're free to meander about the stream to find my other matches, but they're all pretty bad...

I might be able to get more vids, playtime, and practice in later this week. What are your thoughts and ideas for Duck Hunt Dog?

 

[Chauzu]

I was trying out the Zig Zag Cans on stream earlier, got a nice clip uploaded showing some of the potential...

Yeah, hard to say that it doesn't have potential.

I've noticed this can works differently from normal cans though and don't explode until you've hit it 5 times, which is a bummer, I think I'll do some testing later today and upload a clip.

 

[25%Cotton]

i'm having a lot of trouble with decent rosalina players and link players.

link's projectiles make the can and clay pigeon hard to use (mostly the clay pigeon which feels worthless in this matchup) and his range makes approaching deadly. rosalina can absorb the can with her down-b (i think she ate my unmoving can... though maybe i had pressed b, i think i hadn't) and luma blocks any and all clay pigeons :x.

any tips or ideas?
i can usually rely a bit on hunters to spring back at first, but once the opponent catches on it feels a bit helpless.

also, is fair/dair really the best option to autocancel with? x_x
on one side it's a relief that i WASN'T doing something wrong in those matches,
but on the other side it's REALLY tough when so many characters are landing and immediately whipping out attacks.

gotta work on mastering that can!!

 

[ElectricCitrus]

With Rosalina and Luma I'd suggest using the cowboy to force luma to eat a shot and then while that's happening use the clay pidgeon to ice that mofo. Failing that perhaps a more agressive strategy might work? I'm not really sure what qualities Rosalina has. :/

 

[Chauzu]

I think it's important to note that Duck Hunt has mostly been labeled a camper due to his three projectiles but his neutral game isn't bad. No lag on short hop dair / bair is good for approaches and you can easily get some combos started. As for the specific match ups I dunno, haven't faced any good Rosalina or Link yet.

I did face a good Pikachu though. Only got one game but I was destroyed. I hadn't really thought about how to handle Pikachu and didn't have time to adapt, he will be a real challenge for Duck Hunt I feel.

 

[Zantetsugun]

I remember during a recent Clash Tournaments stream a lot of people were comparing Duck Hunt to Snake.
I can definitely see the connection for the projectile game. Honestly I am a bit worried that his long range game is TOO good.
He just has so many options from the can, the disk, and the gunmen. It will be interesting to see how close range fighters will adapt to his projectile moves.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I personally think he's a fusion between Snake and Diddy Kong. Like he has the projectiles of Snake in a sense but he's light and as fast as Diddy Kong is. A good Diddy in Brawl would generally hide behind his bananas too. I feel like all of this will be the same for DHD. Again, as a Brawl Diddy Main I find myself looking at DHD as my new main character.

 

[Chauzu]

I personally think he's a fusion between Snake and Diddy Kong. Like he has the projectiles of Snake in a sense but he's light and as fast as Diddy Kong is. A good Diddy in Brawl would generally hide behind his bananas too. I feel like all of this will be the same for DHD. Again, as a Brawl Diddy Main I find myself looking at DHD as my new main character.

Yeah sounds like a good comparison.

I wonder about Duck Hunt's weight though. You wouldn't believe how many times I've managed to live up until 200%-ish. Feels like he weighs more than one thinks.

The more I play with Duck Hunt the better I am at using the projectiles as well. I've got a lot better with Clay Pigeon - going to make a vid tomorrow I think showing some stuff you can do - and I'm getting better at using a can lying around.

Just played 20-ish games with a good Mega Man in For Glory with no lag, was awesome. He shut me down with his projectiles in the beginning until I noticed the can helps block them, and I got better at approaching him. In the end I ended up winning most games because of Mega Man's lack of kill ability.

 

[Arcadenik]

Oh, that's good to know. I guess the combined weight of the dog and the duck makes Duck Hunt somewhat heavy.