The Drama Thread

[Alacion]

Just thought I'd vent a little in this thread. Nothing's really organized and it's just some random thoughts.

But yeah... I've only been playing Brawl seriously for a few months now and already I'm considering dropping Zelda. No it's not because Zelda sucks, but rather what seems to be going on here in relation to Zelda.

First off, I'm gonna start off by saying I actually think Zelda belongs a few ranks higher on the current Tier List. I've pretty much been advocating for Zelda to be the worst character because of the Zelda boards. Certain people (not naming names), are so excessively delusional with Zelda that I can't take the character seriously now.

The personal matchup thread is a complete joke now with stuff like Zelda has a +4 over King Dedede, or that Pikachu is +2 unless it's this particular player.

As many of you know, I started a guide for Zelda. I'm a person who likes to take initiative, and seeing how nobody was up for the task I decided to work on it despite how I am the newest and most inexperienced player here. If you noticed, I haven't updated it for a week now. I'm simply not motivated to work on it and I feel like I'm writing it for nothing.

The Zelda Boards seem to be deteriorating. Looking at some older threads, I'd say a large majority of people have abandoned this place and for good reason. The Zelda Boards is pretty much a social area / troll ground. There's absolutely no development in Zelda's metagame and no motivation to keep on playing her.

Recently, I've picked up Sheik and Peach. And yesterday, I decided on picking another secondary (or possibly main) just because I'm fed up with how people see Zelda.

tl;dr I'm on the verge of dropping Zelda. Help?

 

[MechaWave]

First off, I'm gonna start off by saying I actually think Zelda belongs a few ranks higher on the current Tier List. I've pretty much been advocating for Zelda to be the worst character because of the Zelda boards. Certain people (not naming names), are so excessively delusional with Zelda that I can't take the character seriously now.

Gotta agree with you here.

The personal matchup thread is a complete joke now with stuff like Zelda has a +4 over King Dedede, or that Pikachu is +2 unless it's this particular player.

Well, see, the thing about ESAM is very, very true. But otherwise everything is pretty messed up.

As many of you know, I started a guide for Zelda. I'm a person who likes to take initiative, and seeing how nobody was up for the task I decided to work on it despite how I am the newest and most inexperienced player here. If you noticed, I haven't updated it for a week now. I'm simply not motivated to work on it and I feel like I'm writing it for nothing.

Um, tbh, I was going to start it and manage it. However I forgot and you have already posted it by the time I remembered. If you want to give me the permission of owning the thread I'd be happy to do so since I can update it more frequently.

The Zelda Boards seem to be deteriorating. Looking at some older threads, I'd say a large majority of people have abandoned this place and for good reason. The Zelda Boards is pretty much a social area / troll ground. There's absolutely no development in Zelda's metagame and no motivation to keep on playing her.

Can't say much about this, the Zelda boards aren't really anything. At one point is was dead for a long time, with only a few occasional posts.

Recently, I've picked up Sheik and Peach. And yesterday, I decided on picking another secondary (or possibly main) just because I'm fed up with how people see Zelda.

Psst, Peach is becoming more viable. Have you SEEN her tournament results?! It's amazing. She'll be high tier in no time. ~

tl;dr I'm on the verge of dropping Zelda. Help?

This was unnecessary.

The thing is, Zelda is a mixed bag in the community from what I see. People cannot just take her seriously, probably not even in 2008 where she was way higher than before. It's a problem with many lower tier characters, but you see the Jigglypuff boards being a near-perfect balance of metagame advancing and socializing. The Peach boards also suffer from not advancing her metagame, and occasionally there are revival methods that are quickly forgotten. In the case with Zelda, I see no problem. At one point (like, two weeks ago) everyone pretty much pitched in and almost every thread available was posted in, but now there's only a single thread (the matchup thread) that can't be taken that literally.

I'm not going to stop you from dropping Zelda, since I pick her less than Peach, it's not a huge deal for me. Do YOU want to keep Zelda? Do YOU want to handle the troubles of just maining her? You could always go Sheilda, which is better than regular Sheik, and use Peach as a secondary or something.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I was gonna say about the ESAM thing. I was being completely honest about that man. Everything I've said has been as honest of an opinion I can say.

Also, with your recent activity, I greatly appreciate it man! I can attest to the Zelda boards kinda breaking down but more people have been trying to play Zelda which I think is great.

Also, you already know I can help you with Sheilda if you're serious about Sheik.

Being here since 2008, it's always sad to see people come and go. I think you've been great for this board man when you came and sparked some life into it. In the end man, it's up to you but I'd hate to see you go if it's because of others.

 

[Alacion]

For that Pikachu matchup... the problem I have with it is that it is clearly not a +2 Zelda (as easy as Ganondorf, really?) and that a single individual can sway the ratio by 4 points.

@Mecha For the guide, I may pass it to somebody else later but... I would like to "complete" it before I do. It's nice I've been getting help from AiB as well. Peach is pretty cool, but I only picked her up for Diddy and Olimar. I'm getting much better with the Diddy matchup (Z button blew my mind...) and Sheik doesn't get obliterated against Olimar.

@Ed Let me just start by saying you're the reason why I haven't given up on Sheilda. You're an inspiration to Zelda, Sheik, and Sheilda mains. I'm actually half and half for Zelda and Sheik in terms of usage. I love both characters (Zelda more, of course) but there are some matchups that I have given up with Zelda. But thanks a lot for the offer to help <3. I don't get many matches recorded which sucks but when I do I'll be sure to ask for advice.

*Attention *****-ish but... thanks for the pep talk everybody... I needed it*

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Well no, I dunno who said that Zelda vs. Pika was +2 Zelda because it certainly isn't. It's -1 for us at best. ESAM is super outlier because he is and since he is the metagame lol, it's a +2 lol.

Also thanks for the compliments man. I appreciate it! I'll make sure to critique ya when you put stuff up.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well no, I dunno who said that Zelda vs. Pika was +2 Zelda because it certainly isn't. It's -1 for us at best. ESAM is super outlier because he is and since he is the metagame lol, it's a +2 lol.

Also thanks for the compliments man. I appreciate it! I'll make sure to critique ya when you put stuff up.

I said it was +2 and that's my honest opinion......

@Courier you might as well drop Zelda there's really no reason to play her. Since you're going to drop her may I suggest a top tier character maybe Snake diddy or Falco no reason to pick up another bad character . Unless of course your some sort of masochist and if you are then you may as well just stay Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The Zelda Boards seem to be deteriorating. Looking at some older threads, I'd say a large majority of people have abandoned this place and for good reason. The Zelda Boards is pretty much a social area / troll ground. There's absolutely no development in Zelda's metagame and no motivation to keep on playing her.

Can't say much about this, the Zelda boards aren't really anything. At one point is was dead for a long time, with only a few occasional posts.

I hate to tell you this, but the Zelda boards have PRETTY much been this way since their inception. Zelda was a terrible, non-competitive character in melee and, being girly and not particularly effective, she didn't develop much of a fan base.

That translated directly to Brawl: people just didn't like her, and a lot of the truly competitive players had other favourites going into brawl. Not helping, Zelda is a very wifi-friendly, free-for-all friendly and n00b-stomper friendly character, so a lot of the new Zelda players were not really, how shall we say, of the competitive mindset.

Eventually time went on and the newbies floated off due to brawl fatigue, while the more experienced fled to less n00bish character boards, though there were less of them from the get-go anyway, leaving Zelda pretty Barren. It doesn't help that Zelda IS subpar (bottom tier? No. Subpar, definitely) so not many people want to give her time and effort.

I sympathize with the frustration that Zelda's meta is stagnant and her boards are pretty much only social ground now, but, as Meta said earlier, for a YEAR or more, this board was completely vacant. By reenergizing the social thread we at least kept SOME activity here, and you can't generate ANY meaningful conversation on empty boards.

As you point out, there are those like Al who are so delusional about Zelda that they derail conversations with rediculous blather. I sympathize with Al, really I do. I wear rose coloured glasses with Zelda. I am optimistic. I give her slightly higher than she may deserve matchup ratios, but, even so... one needs to face realism sometimes, and I fully admit that mindless optimism really curbs the ability to make progress on the boards. But that is not the only problem:
Mr.Eh and Fuujin are JUST as bad, if not worse. All Zelda mains have pretty much accepted that Zelda is bad, but absolutely no optimisim can go around on the board without Fuujin trying to quash it. (mr. eh has, thankfully, vacated such trolling, it appears). It's not really a safe environment for people who see zelda as better than crap when they are instantly flamed by the trolls who are allowed to run rampant on the Zelda boards, partly due to the fact that there are too few members here to drown them out.
It creates a toxic environment for ANY sort of progress where reasonable suggestions are lost amid seas of overexaggerations and flames of hatred.

At this point, what Zelda needs is the equivalent of a "Bail-Out". She needs GOOD players to decide she is worth a look. She needs MULTIPLE good players to do this and to do it in an environment where they can discuss her with each other without the scrubs and trolls interfering. I wish that place could be this board, but it'd take some draconian moderation to keep that in check unless offending parties voluntarily stepped down.... which experience has told me not to expect.




In nuce:
Leave if you want, but don't blame the Zelda boards being social for doing so.... It's really all we can do with the members we have at the moment.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I hate to tell you this, but the Zelda boards have PRETTY much been this way since their inception. Zelda was a terrible, non-competitive character in melee and, being girly and not particularly effective, she didn't develop much of a fan base.

That translated directly to Brawl: people just didn't like her, and a lot of the truly competitive players had other favourites going into brawl. Not helping, Zelda is a very wifi-friendly, free-for-all friendly and n00b-stomper friendly character, so a lot of the new Zelda players were not really, how shall we say, of the competitive mindset. .

I'll disagree with this statement. Zelda online is pretty horrible lag + the long start up on her moves isn't cool. You gotta be precise with Zelda moves and her recovery and quite frankly lag ***** that.

Eventually time went on and the newbies floated off due to brawl fatigue, while the more experienced fled to less n00bish character boards, though there were less of them from the get-go anyway, leaving Zelda pretty Barren. It doesn't help that Zelda IS subpar (bottom tier? No. Subpar, definitely) so not many people want to give her time and effort.

All you have to do is look at the gannon boards. Your justification for Zelda boards not taking it serious isn't because she's a bad character. But because of the people who visit her boards.

I sympathize with the frustration that Zelda's meta is stagnant and her boards are pretty much only social ground now, but, as Meta said earlier, for a YEAR or more, this board was completely vacant. By reenergizing the social thread we at least kept SOME activity here, and you can't generate ANY meaningful conversation on empty boards.

Even when the boards were active it was still just the social thread.

As you point out, there are those like Al who are so delusional about Zelda that they derail conversations with rediculous blather. I sympathize with Al, really I do. I wear rose coloured glasses with Zelda. I am optimistic. I give her slightly higher than she may deserve matchup ratios, but, even so... one needs to face realism sometimes, and I fully admit that mindless optimism really curbs the ability to make progress on the boards. But that is not the only problem:

There's no delusion on me with Zelda however, since I don't agree with what is the norm I'm considered delusional.

Mr.Eh and Fuujin are JUST as bad, if not worse. All Zelda mains have pretty much accepted that Zelda is bad, but absolutely no optimisim can go around on the board without Fuujin trying to quash it. (mr. eh has, thankfully, vacated such trolling, it appears). It's not really a safe environment for people who see zelda as better than crap when they are instantly flamed by the trolls who are allowed to run rampant on the Zelda boards, partly due to the fact that there are too few members here to drown them out.
It creates a toxic environment for ANY sort of progress where reasonable suggestions are lost amid seas of overexaggerations and flames of hatred.

The overall negative tone of the Zelda boards is obnoxious. It gets worse when they bring other players to **** on the Zelda boards. It's a drain and it's why I stopped visiting here and it's more than likely the reason why the Zelda boards died.

At this point, what Zelda needs is the equivalent of a "Bail-Out". She needs GOOD players to decide she is worth a look. She needs MULTIPLE good players to do this and to do it in an environment where they can discuss her with each other without the scrubs and trolls interfering. I wish that place could be this board, but it'd take some draconian moderation to keep that in check unless offending parties voluntarily stepped down.... which experience has told me not to expect.

The definition of good is subjective. Since what you feel as though may be a good player I prob wouldn't and vise versa. Anyways it doesn't matter if someone is "good" or a "scrub" their opinions should be able to be voiced without being called delusional. I honestly believe a lot of people in the Zelda boards needs to put their ego's aside and step doing from this elitist pedestal they've put themselves on. I feel as though something like this has been discussed before weird. I also remember a time when NL DM and Snakeee used to visit the boards mixed in with Riot and Scary....that didn't provide much discussion.

In nuce:
Leave if you want, but don't blame the Zelda boards being social for doing so.... It's really all we can do with the members we have at the moment

Even if their were greater numbers the boards would still trend to social. Because the majority of people who play Zelda are just casuals and then you have some who just want to dictate their opinions as law. The people who actually want their to be a difference are considered delusional nut jobs or blind optimist. There's no way to have a discussion when someone presents a different argument they're consistently attacked by a select few.

There's also one more thing that I'd like to say but I won't because I don't want to get banned. But just use your imagination.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I will say this. As trollish as Mr. Eh was and still is, he can be extremely helpful as long as you ask. Perfect example was when I asked for a full critique of a match I had with Nick Riddle's bowser and he gave me everything I needed to know. I actually really like him as long as you take some trolling with a grain of salt lol.

Same with Fuujin now even though his trolling is a tad harder lol. At least currently he's trying to be helpful.

I remember I never used to post much, I just lurked a ton but when given a chance to learn something, I took it and ran and then asked questions when I had to know something. Now I try to be more helpful when I have the free time lol. I will admit, I would like to see old regulars post more such as Riot, DM, Eh, NL and others. I'd also like to see some new people that use Zelda or even in my boat with Sheilda so we could see some new perspectives (Judo....namesearch bait lol!).

Honest, I think we've been doing a tad better than in the past but it's a slow slow process. It definitely won't be something overnight.

 

[Alacion]

I know it's a personal mu thread but reason does need to be taken into account. For example, if there's a real scrubby MK that you constantly 3 stock you still shouldn't say the mu is +4 Zelda.

I have no problem with the social aspects just that it being the only thing with activity is discouraging.

I won't be dropping Zelda and I think I'll start a new stage discussion to liven things up if people are willing to contribute. I'll then add that info into the guide.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I will say this. As trollish as Mr. Eh was and still is, he can be extremely helpful as long as you ask. Perfect example was when I asked for a full critique of a match I had with Nick Riddle's bowser and he gave me everything I needed to know. I actually really like him as long as you take some trolling with a grain of salt lol.

Same with Fuujin now even though his trolling is a tad harder lol. At least currently he's trying to be helpful.

I remember I never used to post much, I just lurked a ton but when given a chance to learn something, I took it and ran and then asked questions when I had to know something. Now I try to be more helpful when I have the free time lol. I will admit, I would like to see old regulars post more such as Riot, DM, Eh, NL and others. I'd also like to see some new people that use Zelda or even in my boat with Sheilda so we could see some new perspectives (Judo....namesearch bait lol!).

Honest, I think we've been doing a tad better than in the past but it's a slow slow process. It definitely won't be something overnight.

I hear what you're saying about Mr. EH. He knows a lot but instead of posting he trolls so it's pretty hard to respect that IMO. As for Fuujin to me he's a cocky kid who wants attention so he trolls.

I know it's a personal mu thread but reason does need to be taken into account. For example, if there's a real scrubby MK that you constantly 3 stock you still shouldn't say the mu is +4 Zelda.

I have no problem with the social aspects just that it being the only thing with activity is discouraging.

I won't be dropping Zelda and I think I'll start a new stage discussion to liven things up if people are willing to contribute. I'll then add that info into the guide.

It's no different than someone claiming a MU to be -3 because it's hard or Zelda loses becauses she low tier and character X is high tier.....but different strokes for different folks. You should read the old stage discussion thread. I don't think there's a need for a new stage discussion.

 

[Kataefi]

hihi

things are looking a bit grim. glad this issue is raised. if you look at the old research thread and how discussions progressed i think you'll notice the zelda boards (now) are a shadow of their former selves. frame data had people throwing out ideas left and right and steered a lot of discussion and got people talking about strats even if it did lead nowhere. Hotgarbage and kay are gone now - there's a hole missing imo. I want to get into frame testing stuff but there's no PAL code available. there's still stuff i'd like to look into for this character and others.

also this "zelda is overrated by her mains" mentality is so 2009. people want to fantasize about this mentality and it's getting a bit weird. the hate comes from this. i'm being impartial here -> posts on this board are actually pretty well rounded. we had ed come in, tells us his experiences with rob, provide footage... suddenly he's delusional? we have riot come in, talks about his personal experiences with 1/2/3/4/whatever something top peaches... suddenly he's overrating her? is this for real? here we have a personal matchup thread, where the majority consensus has zelda losing everything, yet I've read comments outside this board that suggests people here are inflating her matchups... i can't connect the dots as to how these thoughts are conjured up =? someone tell me.

saying this.. you do get the occasional one poster who might be a bit out there. they need to work on supporting their points in tournament.

let's formulate a plan from all this:

- grab someone from the lab. or find me a pal code. or secretly persuade mechawave to do frame testing stuff
- personal matchup is fine as it is. emphasis on the word personal. official matchup thread would be different.
- having some stage discussions again would be cool as there's newer faces. would be good to get their input.
- someone start looking into issdi shenanigans. it's what the cool kids are doing could open doors to score early death kicks against stuff that typically walls her out. I can vision usmash OoS having more utility in front of her... sdi into attacks and frame 6 their sorry souls... hits in front, on top, behind...this is something to look into =D

 

[Judo777]

I will say this. As trollish as Mr. Eh was and still is, he can be extremely helpful as long as you ask. Perfect example was when I asked for a full critique of a match I had with Nick Riddle's bowser and he gave me everything I needed to know. I actually really like him as long as you take some trolling with a grain of salt lol.

Same with Fuujin now even though his trolling is a tad harder lol. At least currently he's trying to be helpful.

I remember I never used to post much, I just lurked a ton but when given a chance to learn something, I took it and ran and then asked questions when I had to know something. Now I try to be more helpful when I have the free time lol. I will admit, I would like to see old regulars post more such as Riot, DM, Eh, NL and others. I'd also like to see some new people that use Zelda or even in my boat with Sheilda so we could see some new perspectives (Judo....namesearch bait lol!).

Honest, I think we've been doing a tad better than in the past but it's a slow slow process. It definitely won't be something overnight.

Crap! It was a trap all along!

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Haha Judo! Come around Zelda some more because I really wanna see some of your insights on Zelda sometime.

Also, @MechaWave: can you decently read frame data and stuff? I know we have it in the new guide and in the lab thread but I have a website with accurate data as well (straight from PSA or whatever it is) and I wanna compare it to make sure it's accurate.

Will edit when I have site.

EDIT: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitFox.php

The part where you see FitFox, switch to FitZelda. Site works for all characters according to C.J. I just don't know how to read it lol.

 

[MechaWave]

Okay, but exactly what do you need me to do? =/

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Lol, I was just wanting to know the accuracy of our frame data stuff. Honestly, I think our data is accurate but then again I never know lol.

 

[Alacion]

hihi

things are looking a bit grim. glad this issue is raised. if you look at the old research thread and how discussions progressed i think you'll notice the zelda boards (now) are a shadow of their former selves. frame data had people throwing out ideas left and right and steered a lot of discussion and got people talking about strats even if it did lead nowhere. Hotgarbage and kay are gone now - there's a hole missing imo. I want to get into frame testing stuff but there's no PAL code available. there's still stuff i'd like to look into for this character and others.

also this "zelda is overrated by her mains" mentality is so 2009. people want to fantasize about this mentality and it's getting a bit weird. the hate comes from this. i'm being impartial here -> posts on this board are actually pretty well rounded. we had ed come in, tells us his experiences with rob, provide footage... suddenly he's delusional? we have riot come in, talks about his personal experiences with 1/2/3/4/whatever something top peaches... suddenly he's overrating her? is this for real? here we have a personal matchup thread, where the majority consensus has zelda losing everything, yet I've read comments outside this board that suggests people here are inflating her matchups... i can't connect the dots as to how these thoughts are conjured up =? someone tell me.

saying this.. you do get the occasional one poster who might be a bit out there. they need to work on supporting their points in tournament.

let's formulate a plan from all this:

- grab someone from the lab. or find me a pal code. or secretly persuade mechawave to do frame testing stuff
- personal matchup is fine as it is. emphasis on the word personal. official matchup thread would be different.
- having some stage discussions again would be cool as there's newer faces. would be good to get their input.
- someone start looking into issdi shenanigans. it's what the cool kids are doing could open doors to score early death kicks against stuff that typically walls her out. I can vision usmash OoS having more utility in front of her... sdi into attacks and frame 6 their sorry souls... hits in front, on top, behind...this is something to look into =D

I suppose I think "2009" style, but I really believe Zelda's matchups are that bad and the reason why Zelda can have upsets is due to the player not the character. As for Ed vs Chibo, it was really good and while it does count as evidence, it shouldn't be the sole reason for a certain matchup ratio. Maybe Chibo could have used X strategy instead of Y to deal with Zelda such as using more tilts. I'm not sure if I contributed my opinion on the Zelda vs. Rob, but I think it's a solid -1.

Don't get me wrong though, Ed played great and completely deserved that win.

The gameplan at the end of your post is great. Maybe we could assign these roles to willing volunteers? I wouldn't mind taking stage discussion or non-personal matchups.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I suppose I think "2009" style, but I really believe Zelda's matchups are that bad and the reason why Zelda can have upsets is due to the player not the character. As for Ed vs Chibo, it was really good and while it does count as evidence, it shouldn't be the sole reason for a certain matchup ratio. Maybe Chibo could have used X strategy instead of Y to deal with Zelda such as using more tilts. I'm not sure if I contributed my opinion on the Zelda vs. Rob, but I think it's a solid -1.

Don't get me wrong though, Ed played great and completely deserved that win.

The gameplan at the end of your post is great. Maybe we could assign these roles to willing volunteers? I wouldn't mind taking stage discussion or non-personal matchups.

The only thing that matters are the results....lol these boards are such a joke.

 

[Alacion]

A matchup chart is the best model we have for predicting how well a character does against another. It doesn't take into account external factors such as the player and his or her success with the character.

It doesn't really help improve results when somebody says something completely ludicrous that we have to waste time explaining why said ludicrous points are wrong. Reminds me of Jebus and Arcansi.

 

[MechaWave]

Lol, I was just wanting to know the accuracy of our frame data stuff. Honestly, I think our data is accurate but then again I never know lol.

It's accurate, otherwise I would say so in the Reference thread which I'm going to update soon.

 

[KayLo!]

Also, @MechaWave: can you decently read frame data and stuff? I know we have it in the new guide and in the lab thread but I have a website with accurate data as well (straight from PSA or whatever it is) and I wanna compare it to make sure it's accurate.

Will edit when I have site.

EDIT: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitFox.php

The part where you see FitFox, switch to FitZelda. Site works for all characters according to C.J. I just don't know how to read it lol.

That site's gonna give you..... exactly what's already in the research thread. It's all pulled from the same source (PSA/OSA). Except that site isn't polished at all, so you probably won't be able to read it unless you know what you're doing. ;;

Anyways, the Lab is currently working on an official frame data release for all characters, but it probably won't be available for a while. The data in the research thread is accurate though, so.... yeah. If you need anything else, you could just ask.

 

[Kataefi]

i miss you!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

A matchup chart is the best model we have for predicting how well a character does against another. It doesn't take into account external factors such as the player and his or her success with the character.

It doesn't really help improve results when somebody says something completely ludicrous that we have to waste time explaining why said ludicrous points are wrong. Reminds me of Jebus and Arcansi.

Please tell me what makes up a MU because quite frankly I don't know.

That site's gonna give you..... exactly what's already in the research thread. It's all pulled from the same source (PSA/OSA). Except that site isn't polished at all, so you probably won't be able to read it unless you know what you're doing. ;;

Anyways, the Lab is currently working on an official frame data release for all characters, but it probably won't be available for a while. The data in the research thread is accurate though, so.... yeah. If you need anything else, you could just ask.

I would like to know how much of a frame disadvantage / advantage Zelda is at when her moves get DI'd like Fsmash or Usmash.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Please tell me what makes up a MU because quite frankly I don't know.

It's like evidence based medicine vs. anecdotal remedies. YOU might destory pikachu every time you play against him, but if tournament Zeldas lose to pika consistently (especially in the hands of equally skilled players) and there are clear observable reasons why pika has the edge, then your personal experience is, really, irrelevant. Official matchups are determined by observable and repeatable results, not anecdotes.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It's like evidence based medicine vs. anecdotal remedies. YOU might destory pikachu every time you play against him, but if tournament Zeldas lose to pika consistently (especially in the hands of equally skilled players) and there are clear observable reasons why pika has the edge, then your personal experience is, really, irrelevant. Official matchups are determined by observable and repeatable results, not anecdotes.

So then MU's are based on tourney results?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

So then MU's are based on tourney results?

moreso than anything else really, though I believe there are SOME considerations that try to elimainate the biases caused by underrepresentation of one character or a disproportionately skilled player maining a certain character.

In short, if you actually care about Zelda's MU ratios, then get out there and win some tourneys

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

moreso than anything else really, though I believe there are SOME considerations that try to elimainate the biases caused by underrepresentation of one character or a disproportionately skilled player maining a certain character.

In short, if you actually care about Zelda's MU ratios, then get out there and win some tourneys

So how many times would someone have to see a certain MU in tourney until it becomes statistically significant? The truth of the matter is unless your region has one of every character the only way you're going to get MU exp is from online or you could learn the MU from learning the other character. Or you can do both and go to tournies on top of that. The problem I have with the MU ratio's is that they're not based on anything. Same with the tier list it's a subjective pile that tries to come off as objective. However, if that was true I'd be able to duplicate the MU results but that's not possible.

You make winning tourneys sound so easy. If it was that easy I would of won some by now. Anyways my region is one of the strongest regions. I do want to start going to tournies again I just don't want to drive an arm and a leg to get to one. With that said the only way for me to be able to change Zelda's MU's would be to take out a well-known player in my region with Zelda. Then maybe people will start to see things differently. But the odds of that happening are slim to none.

At times I really hate being from Jersey. I don't know why but for some reason this state is just hyper competitive in whatever.

 

[Alacion]

With that said the only way for me to be able to change Zelda's MU's would be to take out a well-known player in my region with Zelda. Then maybe people will start to see things differently. But the odds of that happening are slim to none.

Is that because Zelda is a bad character?

I think Matchups are a combination of theorycraft and aggregate tournament results. Like Sonic said, using the anecdotal evidence (especially from just one or two players, deluded or not) is silly.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Is that because Zelda is a bad character?

I think Matchups are a combination of theorycraft and aggregate tournament results. Like Sonic said, using the anecdotal evidence (especially from just one or two players, deluded or not) is silly.

So how many tournies results do we need in order to make a MU chart with any signigance? When the fact is going to a tourney = MU exp(cojsidering you want see every character in every tourney). What about players from crap regions am i supposed to believe or care about thier tourney EXP? Like I said though if you can find a way to make a MU chart with solid parameters i'd be more inclined to believe. However, when you gave such vague statements like "tourney results" I have no choice but to challenge that type of idoitic way of thinking. Play the MU learn the MU learn the game before you start talking.

 

[Fuujin]

Okay off topic but I'm trying to find housing for apex.
Anyone know of anything?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Okay off topic but I'm trying to find housing for apex.
Anyone know of anything?

you should prob ask in the Apex thread. I'm like 45-a hour away but I'm not going to Apex. There's plenty of hotes in the area.

 

[Alacion]

So how many tournies results do we need in order to make a MU chart with any signigance? When the fact is going to a tourney = MU exp(cojsidering you want see every character in every tourney). What about players from crap regions am i supposed to believe or care about thier tourney EXP? Like I said though if you can find a way to make a MU chart with solid parameters i'd be more inclined to believe. However, when you gave such vague statements like "tourney results" I have no choice but to challenge that type of idoitic way of thinking. Play the MU learn the MU learn the game before you start talking.

You seem to be missing the idea that the mu chart is the best model we can possibly create; it is far from perfect. As for tournaments, I said aggregate results not the results from just one area.

You seem to ne conveniently missing key points to "support" your ideas.

Also, you missed my first question. With the points you've brought up in previous posts, do you admit that Zelda sucks?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You seem to be missing the idea that the mu chart is the best model we can possibly create; it is far from perfect. As for tournaments, I said aggregate results not the results from just one area.

You seem to ne conveniently missing key points to "support" your ideas.

Also, you missed my first question. With the points you've brought up in previous posts, do you admit that Zelda sucks?

There isn't enough Zelda's to get any meaninful results. Theres a handful of Zeldss who go to tournies some r from strong regions while others are from weak regions. Everyones metagame is different.

I think Zelda is bad nit 2nd worst and better than most low tier characters. I don't think ayone should go solo Zelda but I respect those who do. I also don't think learning shiek benefits Zelda. If you want to play her seriously I think she serves well as a CP character so that you can take advantage of your opponents lack of knowledge.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Fuujin!! You'll be at Apex!? I'll finally get to meet ya!

 

[Alacion]

There isn't enough Zelda's to get any meaninful results. Theres a handful of Zeldss who go to tournies some r from strong regions while others are from weak regions. Everyones metagame is different.

I think Zelda is bad nit 2nd worst and better than most low tier characters. I don't think ayone should go solo Zelda but I respect those who do. I also don't think learning shiek benefits Zelda. If you want to play her seriously I think she serves well as a CP character so that you can take advantage of your opponents lack of knowledge.

Why is there a lack of Zeldas? It's because she is not very viable for tournaments. It doesn't matter how powerful different regions are because wouldn't the characters be as proportionally bad? Obviously regions are different but that's why people look at aggregate results such as John#'s thread on character success.

Sheik totally helps Zelda. The fact you have access to both chars at any time makes Sheik amazing for Zelda.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Why is there a lack of Zeldas? It's because she is not very viable for tournaments. It doesn't matter how powerful different regions are because wouldn't the characters be as proportionally bad? Obviously regions are different but that's why people look at aggregate results such as John#'s thread on character success.

Sheik totally helps Zelda. The fact you have access to both chars at any time makes Sheik amazing for Zelda.

The strength of the region does matter. Bad players = bad region = mixed results. There's regions where it's perfectly fine to go Zelda 100% of the time and you wont fix any player who has the potential to top 8 at a major. Whereas you go to some tourneys and there's nothing but killers in the tourney. Even the lesser known players in some region will do well in a bad region.

What MU's does sheik help Zelda with ? None which really matter. Using them together may work for you or however, is doing it but you're going to be better off learning a new character totally.

 

[MechaWave]

Ed... Fuujin, make me proud. If you guys make it to where I actually see a character's face next to your name in the tourney results my love for you two will shine forevermore.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The only reason I would drop Zelda is because of her terribleness.

I picked up Sheik and I've gotten so much better, I'm not sure if it's because Sheik is underrated though.

I agree with Sonic the Hedgedawg though. Zelda as a character recieves so much hate. It's kinda sad.

 

[KayLo!]

i miss you!

I miss you too! But by the looks of this thread topic, things haven't changed much since I left.... so I dunno how long I'll be sticking around lol.

I would like to know how much of a frame disadvantage / advantage Zelda is at when her moves get DI'd like Fsmash or Usmash.

I assume you mean SDI'd?

Multiple factors affect that (character weight, percentage, which frame they escape), so this would be a huge project. That's why we typically only calculate advantage on block, because it's always the same.

Suffice to say, if they SDI out, you can be punished in most cases. Especially with usmash.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I assume you mean SDI'd?

Multiple factors affect that (character weight, percentage, which frame they escape), so this would be a huge project. That's why we typically only calculate advantage on block, because it's always the same.

Suffice to say, if they SDI out, you can be punished in most cases. Especially with usmash.

can you just test it on Mario than and with fsmash since the cool down is less. I'm assuming though that the later the SDI out of the move the less amount of time they have to punish right.