The downfall of Smash Bros

[psicicle]

Hey I have a simple solution to all the balance problems! Let's just ban all the lower tiers and just keep characters like fox or falco. Then we'll have the perfectly balanced game!

Oh wait, that would end up being a worse game.

My point is that balance does not make a good game. I'm sure everybody would prefer pichu, mewtwo, game and watch and the like to stay in SSBM instead of not ever having been in the game. This game is imbalanced, but not to the point where at a somewhat high level there are unplayable characters. Example: Every character can be used effectively by a pro. This goes to show that character choice does not guarantee a win, although it definitely a large factor in the outcome of a match.

 

[everlasting yay]

Someone slap this noob. He's just mad because he can't win with his favorite character. We don't need your sob stories here, go blog about it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Kalypso: Uhhhh, what? Street Fighter IS definitely made for high level tourney play. Or else why would Capcom remake them to make them more balanced? Casual players really can't see or appreciate the balance issues in that game. Tekken, Guilty Gear, Soul Caliber and many other games are definitely meant to be played in tournaments.

Smash wasn't because it is a party game. This is how Smash differs from other traditional fighters. Any game that is constantly remade is meant to played on a high level. The developers are trying to balance the game and make all of the characters playable on a high level.

Of course people play those games casually, but high level play is where traditional fighters thrive.

 

[McCloud]

Any game that is constantly remade is meant to played on a high level. The developers are trying to balance the game and make all of the characters playable on a high level.

Or, you know, trying to make a profit. Cause that's what games usually do. Make profit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If there just trying to make a profit they wouldn't adjust hitboxes, damage, change move lists, super moves, change the fighting engine etc. It's pretty obvious that they are trying to make the game more balanced. casual players wouldn't see this or recognize it. Only high level players would.

To make a profit all they would need to do is add some more characters, more stages and music. And a few special features. But they don't just do that. They do ALOT of system changes. So it's pretty obvious that they are trying to please their hardcore fanbase.

 

[darE::to::Dream]

And SSBM is only a small step up from SSB64?

 

[stek55]

"Hey look at me... I'm the typical smashbaords member. You're a n00b! Look at me i have like 500 posts! That means im smarter and better at smash than you are! Everyone knows this game is perfect! Balancing?! Who the heck needs it?! Learn advanced techniques! No johns!"

God people. I've been lurking around this site for as long as i can remember. I am appalled at how badly this kid got flamed. I wish there were more AZs or Emblem Lords to make posts that are intelligent and worth reading rather than saying "you n00b, you suck! Get off our site!"

Yes tiers do matter and YES THEY MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Duh. The topic creator never asked if you could beat him using a low tier. And i dont think he meant that it was impossible to get good with a low tier. What he CLEARLY implied was that great low tier players, like gimpyfish for example, may perform better with higher tiered characters (like a sheik or a falco) with the same amount of practice. This may be true. I dont know Gimpy personally or his reason for maining bowser. He is a great player though and may even be able to place high in a tournament setting with another character. Who knows?
And IMHO, Bum is a great player but I think his success with donkey kong can largely be accounted for other competitors' (Isai for example) inability or inexperience in dealing with a DK.

 

[BigRick]

Hey I have a simple solution to all the balance problems! Let's just ban all the lower tiers and just keep characters like fox or falco. Then we'll have the perfectly balanced game!

Oh wait, that would end up being a worse game.

My point is that balance does not make a good game. I'm sure everybody would prefer pichu, mewtwo, game and watch and the like to stay in SSBM instead of not ever having been in the game. This game is imbalanced, but not to the point where at a somewhat high level there are unplayable characters. Example: Every character can be used effectively by a pro. This goes to show that character choice does not guarantee a win, although it definitely a large factor in the outcome of a match.

This kind of logic phails

 

[darE::to::Dream]

First of all, he never heard of BUM, Gimpyfish, etc. before posting here.

Second of all, "I mean, Bowser is really cool, but since he was given literally no combos, he sucks, so he is basically useless when versing friends." does sound like "he meant that it was impossible to get good with a low tier."

I was trying to tell him that truly dedicated people keep at it regardless of the disadvantages, and somehow he responded to my post with "you must not like Bowser." I'm sorry, but that kind of response kind of annoys me. Especially when he follows it up with "you must hate low tiers."

 

[psicicle]

This kind of logic phails

This kind of logic phails

Oh wait, that isn't a counter-argument, it is just a useless post that adds nothing to whatever discussion is going on.

Next time, try saying why something somebody else said is wrong instead of just making a statement without any reasoning, logic or evidence.

 

[Kalypso]

Kalypso: Uhhhh, what? Street Fighter IS definitely made for high level tourney play. Or else why would Capcom remake them to make them more balanced? Casual players really can't see or appreciate the balance issues in that game. Tekken, Guilty Gear, Soul Caliber and many other games are definitely meant to be played in tournaments.

Smash wasn't because it is a party game. This is how Smash differs from other traditional fighters. Any game that is constantly remade is meant to played on a high level. The developers are trying to balance the game and make all of the characters playable on a high level.

Of course people play those games casually, but high level play is where traditional fighters thrive.

The same reason they make 1000000 madden games and megaman games? Money?

Also, the only balanced SF game is Super Turbo, which is mostly balanced becase of how simplistic and non-innovative the game is. There's barely anything there, so it was much easier to balance. The most recent SF, Street Fighter 3: Third Strike is imbalanced as all ****. MvC2 is even worse.

Overall those games are very imbalanced, but the sheer fact that there's a thousand of them allow a few that are balanced at a tournament level.

If there just trying to make a profit they wouldn't adjust hitboxes, damage, change move lists, super moves, change the fighting engine etc. It's pretty obvious that they are trying to make the game more balanced. casual players wouldn't see this or recognize it. Only high level players would.

To make a profit all they would need to do is add some more characters, more stages and music. And a few special features. But they don't just do that. They do ALOT of system changes. So it's pretty obvious that they are trying to please their hardcore fanbase.

Because you travelled back in time 10 years and asked them about it.

Oh, and re-read that post, then compare what you said they'd add to make money to a game called Marvel vs Capcom 2. It's one of the more popular fighters being played in tournaments today, and it fits everything you said. 56 characters in teams of 3, tons of stages and music, only 8 (Really, 4, unless you're extremely good) useable characters in tournaments.

 

[BigRick]

Lol dude, I know that it isn't a counter-argument. It's just a fact that I pointed out.

Hey I have a simple solution to all the balance problems! Let's just ban all the lower tiers and just keep characters like fox or falco. Then we'll have the perfectly balanced game!

Oh wait, that would end up being a worse game.

My point is that balance does not make a good game. I'm sure everybody would prefer pichu, mewtwo, game and watch and the like to stay in SSBM instead of not ever having been in the game. This game is imbalanced, but not to the point where at a somewhat high level there are unplayable characters. Example: Every character can be used effectively by a pro. This goes to show that character choice does not guarantee a win, although it definitely a large factor in the outcome of a match.

Everything that is in red is wrong.

 

[BigRick]

Srry for dbl post... just wanted to add up to this post.

Also, the only balanced SF game is Super Turbo, which is mostly balanced becase of how simplistic and non-innovative the game is. There's barely anything there, so it was much easier to balance. The most recent SF, Street Fighter 3: Third Strike is imbalanced as all ****. MvC2 is even worse.

Overall those games are very imbalanced, but the sheer fact that there's a thousand of them allow a few that are balanced at a tournament level.

Oh, and re-read that post, then compare what you said they'd add to make money to a game called Marvel vs Capcom 2. It's one of the more popular fighters being played in tournaments today, and it fits everything you said. 56 characters in teams of 3, tons of stages and music, only 8 (Really, 4, unless you're extremely good) useable characters in tournaments.

I agree, one thing that killed balance in SF3 is the addition of parrying. Parrying nerfs ranged gameplay alot, so character designs like Necro and Remy become alot weaker than in SF2.

However, the addition of new game mechanics can make a game much more balanced. For example, Guilty Gear XX is considered one of the most balanced games out there, and it's because of features like dmg scaling, bursting and green shield (forgot the name of that one lol). Even though the game is very balanced, I'm not a fan of adding plenty of features to a game, so ST remains my 2D fighter of predilection.

And the Marvel tournament scene is not popular because of the quality of the game IMO. If this was the case, then I think that Marvel would've been popular in both US and Japan, just like 3S. However, Marvel matches are simply exciting to watch, and the rivalries in there are simply awesome. I think Marvel is popular because it's kinda like wrestling... I do not play the game myself, but I do follow the scene.

 

[monkey and co.]

soo.. has anyone noticed taht he hasn't posted since forever... and we can all quiet down and then ambush him when he comes back... thinking we all left. :D

 

[Seison]

you know what games REALLY unbalanced? chess
i like to use only pawns cause i think they're really cool and i think its lame to use the better pieces, but i always get destroyed by people who only care about winning so they use their queen and bishops too. its just stupid when you can't win with pawns, theres no point playing the game anymore

BEST analogy in this thread, for sure. Sorry Supreme Pie Ninja, it even beats the epic story of Bob, imo .

As for the topic starter, please re-read this entire thread; if after doing this, you still think you have a valid argument, then you should probably just stick to pwning lvl 9 cpu's.

p.s. the title of this thread is pathetic.

 

[FrostByte]

Psht. If everyone cared about balance, we'd *all* be playing PAL. But according to many, PAL sucks when compared to NTSC.

 

[Emblem Lord]

MvC2 is a hack and it's pretty obvious that they didn't care about balance in that game. Kind of like how Sammy Studio made Guilty Gear and Fist of the North star. Guilty Gear is thier serious fighter. Fist of the North Star is completely broken and it's obvious.

Madden and Megaman. They are franchise that are intended to make alot of money. Fighters don't bring nearly as much money as leading cash cows such as megaman. Madden needs to rerelased anyway sinhce team rosters and info is constantly changing. Anyway that has little relevance since we are talking about fighters.

MvC2 was clearly about money and fan service though. The fighting game rereleases are about balance. Take Guilty Gear. Sol can do combos called dustloops. They are very powerful. In Guilty Gear Slash, Sol can no longer do dustloop combos. Instead he has other good, but still less powerful combos. Why take out dustloops in later versions of the same game? The answer is to balance the game.

And yeah I think the PAL version of SSBM is Nintendo's attempt to balance out the game. Why else would the top tiers get nerfed?

BTW SF isn't a simple game. Are you kidding me? SF is like chess. Seriously.

Ultimately the point I'm trying to make is that alot of fighting game developers know that their game will be played on a high level and that is how they want thier game to played.

 

[darE::to::Dream]

Psht. If everyone cared about balance, we'd *all* be playing PAL. But according to many, PAL sucks when compared to NTSC.

Well, clearly. They only have 5/6 as many frames as we do!

 

[Shade 64-luigi-]

not being well balanced! This isn't a downfall of smash bros, how you beat somebody, depends on the player, not the character, sure, different characters have different advantages, like bowser has strong hits, while luiig jumps super high! if the characters were perfectly balanced, then they would be furtually all the same, plus, no character would have any *special* things, like bowser wouldn't be strong, and luigi wouldn't jump hi!

 

[Supreme Pie Ninja]

BEST analogy in this thread, for sure. Sorry Supreme Pie Ninja, it even beats the epic story of Bob, imo .

I thought it was a nice post D:

 

[kerploplesteesh]

http://x-victory.ru/forum/index.php

MvC2 is a hack and it's pretty obvious that they didn't care about balance in that game. Kind of like how Sammy Studio made Guilty Gear and Fist of the North star. Guilty Gear is thier serious fighter. Fist of the North Star is completely broken and it's obvious.

Madden and Megaman. They are franchise that are intended to make alot of money. Fighters don't bring nearly as much money as leading cash cows such as megaman. Madden needs to rerelased anyway sinhce team rosters and info is constantly changing. Anyway that has little relevance since we are talking about fighters.

MvC2 was clearly about money and fan service though. The fighting game rereleases are about balance. Take Guilty Gear. Sol can do combos called dustloops. They are very powerful. In Guilty Gear Slash, Sol can no longer do dustloop combos. Instead he has other good, but still less powerful combos. Why take out dustloops in later versions of the same game? The answer is to balance the game.

And yeah I think the PAL version of SSBM is Nintendo's attempt to balance out the game. Why else would the top tiers get nerfed?

BTW SF isn't a simple game. Are you kidding me? SF is like chess. Seriously.

Ultimately the point I'm trying to make is that alot of fighting game developers know that their game will be played on a high level and that is how they want thier game to played.

I know its off note, but can you give me the examples of the PAL version being more balanced? i dont know much about this particular subject.

 

[Samochan]

Psht. If everyone cared about balance, we'd *all* be playing PAL. But according to many, PAL sucks when compared to NTSC.

Probably according to NTSC players, who think that PAL version is for wussies... >_> Having played both versions I can say that PAL is much better. :/ And most americans can't even play PAL, you'd need PAL cube and everything besides PAL ssbm too. >_>

 

[psicicle]

Lol dude, I know that it isn't a counter-argument. It's just a fact that I pointed out.



Everything that is in red is wrong.

Yeah, better post. You still lack the why.

First sentence was probably a little too ambiguous. I meant that balance is not the only factor that makes a good game and even a game with perfect balance could be worse than a game without it.

Second sentence: Chu Dat plays pichu, taj can play mewtwo, gimpy can play bowser, Ken can play G&W. I can't think of anybody who plays Kirby, I'll need to search up on that, but these characters are certainly not so unplayable that these players would lose to say.... me with those characters. I know that the bottom rung are very unlikely to win tourneys, but they can put up a decent fight.

 

[Emblem Lord]

PAL= Teh Hawtness.

Balance = Amazing.

This is what the PAL version attempts to do. Balance SSBM.

 

[knightpraetor]

time to add my two cents...recently i got really pissed and depressed at the game because of a noteable pro match..i think pc chris falcon vs kdj fox? meh i forget..anyways, it consissts of waveshine to death..two whole lives..onthing that can be done...smash DI is insufficient for roughly half the cast to get out of combos...the char that go farther when shined can smash DI out thankfully.

However, Waveshining is broken. I play fox and can do all the fancy tech tricks..but it doesn't change the fact that waveshining is broken. Marth can compete because of chaingrabs..and that doesn't bother me..i guess the reason for that is that a competent fox or falco can avoid grabs..they hve a mechanism to avoid it..thus creating balance.

That said, sheik's cg i find to be utterly broken..on a char that can compete without chaingrabs...you can just watch a sheik vs marth or fox to see that. I guess the problem with chaingrabs on most of the cast..is that many of the char are too slow to avoid grabs..as well as having no viable defense (and in some cases not even the range to space properly)

i mean i wouldn't mind if falcon could be cg by more char as he's fast enough to avoid grabs as well as having the range to avoid them. But basically i guess my biggest complaint is not that the tiers aren't balanced..it's how unbalanced they are...why don't we ban cg and waveshining? i mean overall that would balance the game far more wouldn't it? falco and sheik would probably move up to top tier.. fox might go down one..but it wouldn't be by much...marth would have a hard time competing vs fastfallers perhaps..

shrugs..but let's be honest..that will never happen..and in the end probably wouldn't solve much..but i would give a lot for the game to be better balanced. I hate how people always post Skill>Tiers....such an obvious statement...but it doesn't change the fact that i don't believe i'd lose to gimpyfish's bowser much..nor does it change the fact that i've beaten better players by using sheik and cg 80% of the damage and then killing them repeatedly

i mean i'm still just a scrub..but i have a hard time believing a bowser will compete with me...not when there are so many unbreakable comboes the top tier have on them...along with speed.

 

[RDK]

I can't think of anybody who plays Kirby

I was a great Kirby, until I switched to the Dark Side (no, jk ). If I had the proper tools to post vids, I would in a heartbeat...

But does PAL vs. NTSC really make that much of a difference?

 

[darE::to::Dream]

From what I've heard, Sheik's chaingrabs are gone, some of Ganon's attacks are significantly weaker in damage AND knockback, Marth's dair is a really strong meteor instead of a true spike, Only the beginning of Falco's dair is a spike, etc. etc.

There's a ton of balancing changes that justified a tier list to be made specifically for PAL.

 

[RDK]

...wow, that's dumb. Thank God it isn't a computer game that gets b_tch-patched every few days with "balancing" crap and the like...

Hey, wait a minute! Wii + internet connection + patchable games...

Jesus Christ!

 

[psicicle]

I'm wondering, have any wii games been patched in the past so far?

 

[RDK]

I'm wondering, have any wii games been patched in the past so far?

...not to my knowledge. My formula above was just a speculation.

If a time ever comes when patches are available over the Wii-Wii network, I hope they're not automatic. I don't want my Wii games changing on me like all my PC games...(Battlefield 2142, anyone?).

 

[Sensai]

You mean, between PAL and NTSC? Or like...online?

If PAL to NTSC, no idea. If online is what you meant, no.

PAL to NTSC makes a huge difference. Not like...game-breaking, but there are things you'd definitely notice. Like, for example, Sheik's Dthrow isn't gay.

 

[knightpraetor]

well, i would play pal but 1. it's hard to get...and 2. doesn't the "balancing" really just balance things out with fox even more top tier? so now sheik is a little less gay..so it's more fox and marth at the top? though i don't know how falco is...can he still pillar even with the changes to his dair?

 

[The Darkness]

i think i have the final statement to this evereasting thread...

Use Handicap with low tier characters :D !!!

 

[RDK]

Use Handicap with low tier characters :D !!!

...umm, no?

 

[DRD]

Hahah, I see Nabb hasn't posted a reply in the past 4 pages...Well, let him stew. I don't really see the point of this thread anymore, I think the OP has learned his lesson.

 

[The Darkness]

...umm, no?

Think about it, its revolutionary =D

 

[RDK]

Hahah, I see Nabb hasn't posted a reply in the past 4 pages...Well, let him stew. I don't really see the point of this thread anymore, I think the OP has learned his lesson.

I don't know, DRD--he might come back when you least expect it! Like his kind always do...

I'm no noob. Balancing DOES effect the game when I play.

Lol! Nab, dear Nab-- that right there is a spinning vortex of hypocracy. I love his pretentiousness! "I'm no n00b."

 

[Chocolate chip]

well i think every char is good at atleast 1 or 2 things thats why there in the game, i dont think nintendo would put somthing useless in one of there games ... except for freind codes ...

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Oh and i'm surprised noone decided to end this kid with the good ol'

NO JOHNS SON

QFT.

Tough break, Nabb.

Smooth Criminal

 

[CWolf20]

BTW SF isn't a simple game. Are you kidding me? SF is like chess. Seriously.

Chess is an extremely simple game. There are only 6 types of pieces, and all of them can only move in set, simple to remember ways. This isn't to say anything about how deep the game is for skill, it's just that the game is not that complicated in itself. It's the depth of the human mind that makes that game so deep.