Meta "The Dog House" - Duck Hunt Moveset/AT Thread/Metagame Discussion

[DunnoBro]

Actually lilinuyasha is right. I've always done frisbee > bair since I always thought it was stronger due to the precision and animation involved, but nair seems overall better go for.

There's virtually ZERO difference in knockback. Bair might kill fast fallers slightly better but only by 2-3% at most. And in the situation of frisbee > aerial, nair connects just as well despite less range due to no time spent doing a RAR.

It's also better for catching 50/50s when you know you can't true combo and want to punish an air dodge.

At super low percents though, sourspot bair does set-up for sweetspot super close to the blastzone.

Anywho, here's the grab flowchart I'm trying to incorporate now:

0-50: Go for guaranteed fthrow combos.
50-100: Go for dthrow mix-ups. Best to try going for them JUST as fthrow combos are about to stop working instead of when they already have. If they air dodge at these percents you generally still retain enough frame advantage to get something.

Dthrow Mix-ups:

No Airdodge: Spaced Sweetspot fair > Smash Toss Frisbee > Follow-up
*If Sourspot fair at lower percents, weave away from opponent and soft toss.

The difference between the toss types matter a LOT.

After a sweetspot fair, only smash toss goes at the proper straight angle quick enough to pressure a tumbling opponent. They will be inclined to jump inward if it doesn't hit them, letting you upair.

However, after a sourspot, a smashtoss can still connect but if it doesn't it leaves you very open. Soft toss catches nearby-landings better anyway so this is more efficient for catching them and protecting you as it stays nearer.

Both frisbees let you kill combo, but only with an aerial generally. They'll connect too far to let another frisbee connect.

If Airdodge:
By Ledge and proper fall speed: Fsmash.
Frisbee doesn't combo very well off the ledge and this generally kills pretty well.

Inaward stage: Follow DI with a jump as if to aerial, then frisbee in direction of air dodge. Either follow up with a killing aerial or another frisbee into one if you can.

Off-stage: You can dair if you think it'll kill but at the percents it does they'll be high enough for better punishes probably.

150+/130+(rage) When dthrow follow-ups just stop working properly, which unfortunately happens pretty quick, it's back to just camping for the kill and throwing them offstage for edgeguards. Almost ALWAYS reverse shot at these percents after connecting with anything. Throw, dash attack, whatever. His moves naturally send them at proper angles to be pressured by the can.

*Double rage also seems to be the only percents Dthrow > Instant Frisbee actually frame traps decently. Unfortunately, most chars go too high to kill off of a frisbee confirm at these percents but you can catch their jumps if they try to avoid it or chase with can out of frisbee hitstun.

 

[lilinuyasha]

Actually lilinuyasha is right. I've always done frisbee > bair since I always thought it was stronger due to the precision and animation involved, but nair seems overall better go for.

0-50: Go for guaranteed fthrow combos.

Maybe this is ignorance, but I never go for fthrows because I never got a guarunteed comboo off of them. Am I missing something?

 

[DunnoBro]

Maybe this is ignorance, but I never go for fthrows because I never got a guarunteed comboo off of them. Am I missing something?

Unless they're fast fallers DIing down and teching, Fthrow > DA/Fair is a pretty bread and butter throw combo at low percents. I think only Fthrow > Fair actually true combos but they're too low to air dodge or jump away from either at lower percents.

 

[WispBae]

Unless they're fast fallers DIing down and teching, Fthrow > DA/Fair is a pretty bread and butter throw combo at low percents. I think only Fthrow > Fair actually true combos but they're too low to air dodge or jump away from either at lower percents.

My rule of thumb for F-throw was just follow the DI. Going low, dash attack, going high, Fair. If they have a habit after jumping and it's the percentage where you can't get any strings off of it, use their habit as time to set up Trick Shots and Gunmen, anticipate the landing, try for u-air or wait for airdodges for Nairs.

 

[lilinuyasha]

Ah. Usually i just always down throw and either bait the air dodge forward smash, or go for the up air. It works a lot.

 

[DunnoBro]

My rule of thumb for F-throw was just follow the DI. Going low, dash attack, going high, Fair. If they have a habit after jumping and it's the percentage where you can't get any strings off of it, use their habit as time to set up Trick Shots and Gunmen, anticipate the landing, try for u-air or wait for airdodges for Nairs.

If they're at a percent they can jump out of it, you should just dthrow > fair. You still retain frame advantage on most chars and it gets the conditioning needed to actually kill later started.

Ah. Usually i just always down throw and either bait the air dodge forward smash, or go for the up air. It works a lot.

I've been wondering about this myself, since uair strings are so potent at low % and this gets conditioning started earlier... But uair doesn't connect right from a short hop on most chars at this time in my experience.

Really hope next patch gives DHD some potency. He's great consistency-wise, but there's never that fear of "Oh I could die randomly before 80% if i make a mistake" for the opponent.

 

[lilinuyasha]

I've been wondering about this myself, since uair strings are so potent at low % and this gets conditioning started earlier... But uair doesn't connect right from a short hop on most chars at this time in my experience.

Really hope next patch gives DHD some potency. He's great consistency-wise, but there's never that fear of "Oh I could die randomly before 80% if i make a mistake" for the opponent.

Yeah, baiting the Fsmash is great. That's usually the combo i go for first, since people tend to have a habit of air dodging. If I see that they don't, then i go for the up air. Sometimes, if they jump out behind me after an air dodge, I can connect with a back air.

 

[WispBae]

If they're at a percent they can jump out of it, you should just dthrow > fair. You still retain frame advantage on most chars and it gets the conditioning needed to actually kill later started.



I've been wondering about this myself, since uair strings are so potent at low % and this gets conditioning started earlier... But uair doesn't connect right from a short hop on most chars at this time in my experience.

Really hope next patch gives DHD some potency. He's great consistency-wise, but there's never that fear of "Oh I could die randomly before 80% if i make a mistake" for the opponent.

What does the frame advantage gives us though? Jab? A Smash? What do you think?

 

[Reizilla]

Does anyone else go for dash attack after a lower percent frisbee? I find it sometimes sets up well for can/up air juggles.

 

[Wizpiggleton]

Does anyone else go for dash attack after a lower percent frisbee? I find it sometimes sets up well for can/up air juggles.

I do but but that's usually because I throw players towards the cans I place. I usually end up hitting the can on the same dash attack so it sometimes hits them on the on the way up.

 

[lilinuyasha]

Does anyone else go for dash attack after a lower percent frisbee? I find it sometimes sets up well for can/up air juggles.

Of course. Then I usually throw out a can as defense and try and cover their landing.

 

[DunnoBro]

Seems like when frisbee > frisbee isn't guaranteed, either due to distance, percent, or positioning in relation to the stage, frisbee > dair > fsmash is a great way to complete the stock too. I'd say it's best to go for it just around when dair would start ground bouncing the character. If you fail to ground bounce, go for jab.

It's... not totally consistent (especially with rage) but frisbee > dair does true combo and dair > fsmash does frame trap reliably and when by the ledge (conveniently when frisbee > frisbee doesn't work!) it kills pretty early.

Dair alone tacks on more percent and puts them in a worse position then another frisbee would if you had to go offstage to connect with it so just gonna try that for a while.

At the percents you'd need to dair > uair to kill, I don't think frisbee > dair true combos reliably. Might as well go for bair/uair/nair.

Also really starting to get confused about what throws to do on what chars at what percents...

On fast fallers it doesn't seem like fthrow combos are that great often. They can tech them when they often work and other times just di down/away to avoid it.

I think dthrow even at 0 might be best vs them. You can walk > rapid jab for decent damage around 0 and around 15%+ I think FH nair might be best.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Back throw was de facto my combo setup originally for all characters regardless of percent - it does more damage, and it appears to throw 'further', which sets up nicely into a frisbee or gunman setup. If their percents were high enough they floated, you could forward air, and if they're true floaters, you could use the air time to do a ground setup.

I switched it out for down throw to experiment and found down throw-> can or down throw->forward smash A worked nicely on fast fallers and air dodgers, and if they're the kind with the ability to double-dodge, I find downthrow into rapid light jab catches nicely. Down throw into neutral air gives good coverage but poor damage (if they air dodge) and requires you shadow closely, which can be dangerous against sword users with '360 no scope' style slashes.

Up throw is neglected but fatal on Jigglypuff at about 166% or so, and I compiled a list of percentages along with Wispy in the DHD's quirk KO move thread on when characters become killable. That said, I don't think upthrow really works for anything other than to dispatch difficult to kill players.

 

[lilinuyasha]

Honestly, my default throw is down, linking into a fsmash. Or an up air.

That being said, I have a training combo that works (Though landing it in real life is rather tricky) Gunman, grab, f throw, Fair, Fair, Nair. Usually you're Nairing off the stage with the positioning, but it's a good 44 percent combo right off the bat if you get it. Sometimes more depending on the gunman. (Pc Principal: "MAN? ARE YOU EXCLUDING WOMEN AND MINORITIES FOR BEING ABLE TO WIELD GUNS AS WELL?")

 

[lilinuyasha]

I will say I've been working on can setups more, trying to uthrow into a can I'm hitting. It seems pretty effective thus far, but I'm still pretty bad with consistent throws into cans.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Sometimes more depending on the gunman. (Pc Principal: "MAN? ARE YOU EXCLUDING WOMEN AND MINORITIES FOR BEING ABLE TO WIELD GUNS AS WELL?")

Never forget Full Suit Spamus.

Well, technically speaking the gunmen do appear to be suspiciously Mexican. Coupled with the profiling done in the early punch-out I think Nintendo might have issues with anyone non-Japanese. And people who don't have facial hair (Mario, Luigi, Wario, Waluigi, Fox etc).

 

[DunnoBro]

Only the bandito is mexican, the rest are obviously white.

 

[lilinuyasha]

Only the bandito is mexican, the rest are obviously white.

White? Are you kidding? They're totally all mexican, as we need more minority representation.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Also, Mexico and Texas shared a loving relationship... in banditry. Besides, these guys are defending a poor, innocent, defenceless dog who somehow produces infinite explosive cans out of thin air and gets some anonymous gunner to do all his bidding...

Anyway, my point was Nintendo obviously discriminate against people without facial hair. Which is why Kirby is low tier, Slippy is the hated one out of the furry Fox crew, and anyone without facial hair transforms into a girl.

 

[lilinuyasha]

Also, Mexico and Texas shared a loving relationship... in banditry. Besides, these guys are defending a poor, innocent, defenceless dog who somehow produces infinite explosive cans out of thin air and gets some anonymous gunner to do all his bidding...

Anyway, my point was Nintendo obviously discriminate against people without facial hair. Which is why Kirby is low tier, Slippy is the hated one out of the furry Fox crew, and anyone without facial hair transforms into a girl.

Bro, i live in Texas, I know all about our relationship with Mexico.

Which is how i know things. About gunmen.

Open carry goes into effect next year.

Duck Hunt will suddenly become even more deadly.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Bro, i live in Texas, I know all about our relationship with Mexico.

Which is how i know things. About gunmen.

Open carry goes into effect next year.

Duck Hunt will suddenly become even more deadly.

If we can just teach those guys to stop saying 'draw' before they shoot, their chances will improve!

Also:

http://www.hirezfox.com/km/co/d/20040925.html

 

[lilinuyasha]

We are so racist.

 

[outfoxd]

Question. Do the new shield stun mechanics mean we can lock people down better now between blocked bullets, cans, and discs? I would love to be able to confirm grabs even harder off our pressure.

 

[Perris6]

We should really look into this

 

[Joshua Flynn]

We are so racist.

Wasn't intending to be racist. I saw it on a forum I frequent where the title was: "I BITE YOU HARD. You die." And I thought it was weird how he looked just like the gunman and creepy how it cropped up given the discussion here. And given the guy in the sombrero's gun is the only one to set opponents on fire (???) and this is a fire ant...

Move to call sombrero guy 'Pepe' (with a terrible gun pun of 'Le Pew') so he can BITE THEM HARD and they die.

 

[lilinuyasha]

Tall guy, Small guy, Dark guy, Light guy...and Preston.

 

[Reizilla]

I think you're in the wrong thread.


With the new shield mechanics, how much safer some of Duck Hunt's moves? I can't test things for myself, but is there something like SH Dair on shield > grab, or does Can + Gunman pressure give us a good chance to shield poke? Make fsmash safer if they block?

 

[DunnoBro]

Fsmash more reliably links into the strong hit on shield due to more push on the multihits. It's still hella unsafe though, only difference I guess is less people may be able to punish it with smashes of their own. But grabs/dash attacks are still fair game.

I think you're in the wrong thread.


With the new shield mechanics, how much safer some of Duck Hunt's moves? I can't test things for myself, but is there something like SH Dair on shield > grab, or does Can + Gunman pressure give us a good chance to shield poke? Make fsmash safer if they block?

SH Dair > Grab does not work.

However, SH Dair is much safer on shield and it matters less about which side of the opponent you're on when hitting their shield to avoid getting shield grabbed, which is nice.

Fair is a better frame trap for grabs since it has more range, is quicker, and is just a safer move to use in general. It always frame trapped a bit for grabs like sheiks though it does it much better now.

The big thing about SH Dair now may be that it's still a kill set-up on shield.

Get the dair and you get the pop-up for a potential kill combo.
But hit the shield, and you can punish the shield grab attempt with a close-range frisbee which can also convert into a kill combo. If you mash it right, it should be safer on shield now than before.

Be sure to retreat as far away as possible from the opponent after dairing their shield if you plan to frisbee. Either DI over or retreating. A point blank frisbee is still very punishable and it's hard to gauge how positive it is on shield now but hopefully it should be positive at the distance of where you'll land after a dair so it's a free kill chance.

Sweetspot fair can be used in a similar fashion. I'd recommend using fair primarily except for when it's time to kill as connecting with fair won't set up for one as well.

Can, gunmen, and frisbee are all slightly more positive on block but not to the point they can be spammed. They do however frame trap for grabs or allow us to set up again after hitting a shield depending on spacing better, though.

Overall though, DHD still lacks truly good and safe kill set-ups and most characters got stuff like this so I wouldn't get too excited..

 

[DunnoBro]

Okay, so ACTUAL dthrow kill set-up flowchart. It's pretty complicated but if you know your percents/characters it does work. The most annoying part of this set-up is punishing the air dodges of small/floaty characters at higher percents.

I found out that by utilizing the slight stall uair gives DHD, you can in fact punish DI + Jump away with Uair at kill percents.
Simply delay your jumps until the apex of each. This gives you just enough more height to catch DI + Jump away consistently with at the very least, the strong hit of uair. (However in actual playing, opponents who didn't buffer this option + perfect up/away DI tended to get caught out of their jump)

Also after more in-depth testing, frisbee to punish air dodges is really only viable in pretty specific situations. (Floaties primarily)

The flow chart is as follows:
*Note, dashing in to follow DI, gauging the opponents reaction while you do, and delaying jumps/uairs to slight positional advantage is extremely important.

No Air dodge/Bad DI/Specific character that can't jump out: dash forward (follow DI and gauge opponent's reaction) > uair

(Sometimes short hopping into a double jump is fine too)

This is the bread and butter and you should start going for it as low as 50-70% to start conditioning until they take an option that doesn't let you do it anymore. If you read a double jump or air dodge away you can kill them reliably at 70-90%

*Most people and players will not be DJing away, either due to not thinking it will help or it actually not helping. Some characters HAVE to air dodge at non-kill percents.

DI + Jump Away: Dash ahead once more to follow DI > Full Jump > Wait Till Apex until Double Jumping > Repeat for Uair (unless the opponent jumped/DI'd in and you can tell a straight uair will connect)

*At VERY high percents (140+ or whenever this stops working), replace uair with can. With no jump, most characters will struggle to air dodge it. Duck hunt will also be falling and can cover the air dodge himself with a uair.

Now the hard part... You have to punish air dodges FOUR different ways.

...I know.

The easiest way I to recognize each situation to know how to punish is DHD's jump height.

If they'd land or almost land with an air dodge: Charge fsmash/dsmash. (pivoting often makes it safer and connect better if you're not high on rage mode)

If they'd air dodge just above short hop height: Short Hop > Smash Toss Clay Pigeon > Delay Shot as late as possible > Dash In > Shoot Pigeon > Combo into Uair

(They can air dodge but not jump away. If they air dodge it's a free usmash in this scenario. Most players don't think to air dodge in this situation)

If they'd air dodge just above Full Hop Height: Full Hop > Dair > Uair/Fsmash/Dsmash
(You can try for a full hop clay pigeon but it's really hard to both connect and combo off in this situation)

If they'd air dodge anywhere above Full Hop Height: Short Hop > Fast Fall > Rising Uair

Mostly only worth doing with a full hop/double jump (don't worry much about landing before the uair)

SH Uair is an alternative to Full Hop dair to punish slightly lower air dodges but doesn't do as much damage or kill as well in my experience.

Yea, it's a lot of crap to remember but it has been working in testing. Luckily, most characters only generally ever demand two types of air dodge punishes at most. Only lighter, smaller, floaty characters really challenge you.

Ex. It will very rarely ever be optimal to try full hop dairing diddy or little mac. If a character lands while being hit with dair it will sourspot thus not frame trap well enough for this to be worth it.

 

[DunnoBro]

Video to understand easier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBjo-c0UhAQ

Edit: Also, after dthrow > uair, I found it's generally best to gunmen in one direction (while falling) Then trick shot in another. (The angle of a b-reverse is just better and the momentum change spares you from dealing with hitbox landings like bowser dair.) It's just a better trap. Gunmen isn't too reliable but it does scare them.

 

[DunnoBro]

Hmm, you know I got a little crazy and think I might have found something.

To punish DI + Jump away, Trick Shot might actually work, though it depends on your percent/DI. Luckily, DHD is a midweight who can reliably have more damage on the enemy so it's kind of consistent.

I'm still testing it, but essentially right after you full jump trickshot, hold DOWN, not IN(which is the survival/anti-edgeguard DI. Also if they were already jumping away from you, they should still have some residual DI from that). If you're about 20-30% within the opponents %, this ensures you're beneath them and can 50/50 for Uair. If you ACTUALLY got their jump, it might be an unavoidable frame trap. (Uair > they air dodge > nair/bair at the end)

However, this wouldn't be worth going for unless trick shot covered other options... Which it DOES.

If the trick shot DOESN'T connect (too high percent) and they jump away, keep mashing the can to chase them and catch their landing with usmash (or uair if there's a platform). They CANNOT weave back in with the can so their landing is very telegraphed due to no jump. If they go offstage, keep chasing with can/fair.

Lastly, if they air dodge JUST LET THE CAN DROP. Then full hop nair over the trajectory preemptively. It will true combo and kills pretty good. (Dair might also work at lower percents)

This only seems optimal for smaller, lighter, more mobile characters where trading is okay and it's a hassle to try punishing their DI + Jump away other ways due to good landing options.

Again though I didn't get to test much so take this all with a grain of salt.

EDIT: After some more testing, it seems like Dthrow > Trick shot is actually optimal vs the more mobile characters. Trick shot frame traps them for frisbee, and if you mash everything they true combo into each other. Considering they're DIing and jumping away, despite the weak power of trick shot this will generally be hitting by the ledge so it kills reliably.

Also, I thought it was just an unintentional glitch before (because this character has a few) but it seems like DHD actually has a very reliable way to cover all ledge options.

Essentially, if you buffer smash toss directly after trick shotting a can about roll distance from the ledge(had to be grounded), the can will not move, and the frisbee will hover above the ledge well over the standard get-up and ledge invincibility. (If timing is off, nair also gets both ledge jump and get-up but only really resets the situation) I'm sure we've all seen this phenomenon before but didn't know how to take advantage of it.

DHD can then cover ledge jumps himself with bair, both can and frisbee also true combo into bair at these trajectories.

It's insanely easy to do and seems much more optimal than actually edgeguarding at kill percents.

A slightly quicker and less complete ledge coverage option is trick shot > stationary fair. (Easiest with tilt c-stick) This keeps the can hitbox activate while also having fair active. For some reason, ftilt won't launch the can but rather just flick it. This gets both standard get-ups with can and rolls with ftilt.

Considering the distance trick shot is at when first launched is perfect for:

Easy Reverse Shots with DA
The Smash Toss ledge coverage
Ftilt flicking

I'm certain these are intended techniques for use.

 

[Blumiere]

Are there any visual mockups on what the hitboxes on the buffed jab actually look like? They seem large enough to pull off some oddities: https://vine.co/v/eYKeYDlwK9U

 

[DunnoBro]

Are there any visual mockups on what the hitboxes on the buffed jab actually look like? They seem large enough to pull off some oddities: https://vine.co/v/eYKeYDlwK9U

They only thing they help with is frame trapping for grabs/ftilt to punish them trying to stuff your grabs. The IASA frames don't really allow for anything too ridiculous.

It just connects better.

 

[outfoxd]

I started messing with the ledge coverage options to the best of my memory. It really works well if you goad someone into waiting too long after nailing them a couple times. I got a ledged fsmash on one of the pressure situations

 

[DunnoBro]

If anyone's having trouble getting the timing down like I did, you need to buffer this ASAP out of trick shot endlag. And it has very little so it's kind of tricky.

I was focusing too much on the can's position and it screwed me up, but essentially just buffer smash toss when the dog stops smiling. (or a little before when you get more used to the timing)

 

[crashbfan]

 

[DunnoBro]

Bleh I could've done better if i actually got to warm up

Never giving a certain someone a ride again...

 

[crashbfan]

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

Hello, I am fox and charizard player, but have played duck hunt in the past, and I like his playstyle. I haven't had much time to lab with him so that I could actually use him in matches, and that is why I come here. I was wondering, what MU's does duck hunt do well in, and what MU's are hard for him to win? If these match ups cover MU's that I tend to struggle with, I may decide to pick him up, but I'm not sure what to do right now.

Also, is it ok that I posted this here? I didn't think it would fit in the matchup thread because I am basically asking about every character in the game, and I wasn't sure if I was only allowed to post about the characters that are currently being discussed.

 

[TheWorstMuppet]

Hello, I am fox and charizard player, but have played duck hunt in the past, and I like his playstyle. I haven't had much time to lab with him so that I could actually use him in matches, and that is why I come here. I was wondering, what MU's does duck hunt do well in, and what MU's are hard for him to win? If these match ups cover MU's that I tend to struggle with, I may decide to pick him up, but I'm not sure what to do right now.

Also, is it ok that I posted this here? I didn't think it would fit in the matchup thread because I am basically asking about every character in the game, and I wasn't sure if I was only allowed to post about the characters that are currently being discussed.

Hey ho! How are ya?

I believe Duck Hunts best match-ups by far are Ganondorf, King Dedede, Bowser, Charizard and DK. Pretty much any character that allows Duck Hunt free reign to set up everything. Yeah he has trouble killing them, but it's our most favorable match-up by far.

As for the worst there are a few, unfortunately. Sonic, Fox and Olimar are hard ones to play against. Any aggressive rushdown character provides an uphill battle for Duck Hunt to climb, as they can easily dodge past his stuff and start wailing on him hard. I really don't like playing against Foxes. It hurts me soul. ;I

Characters like Olimar and R.O.B are super tough as well as they straight up deny the can with their own projectiles. Pikmin destroy the can instantly and can get in the way of DH's bag of tricks. R.O.B's gyro and laser shred through everything Duck Hunt throws out. Plus, both of them can kill earlier than you can.

So yeah! Heavyweights good (except for Megaman and Ryu), aggressive rushdown and projectile characters bad. Everyone else is on equal footing in my opinion.