Meta "The Dog House" - Duck Hunt Moveset/AT Thread/Metagame Discussion

[outfoxd]

I lost to NAKAT and beat Mr. E, but I sadly never got on stream.

I pour out kibble in your honor. Maybe more of us will show up high at majors someday.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

I don't even play Duck Hunt. But after seeing all this great work, definitly gonna give a try now. Your post deserves more likes.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

It should be recognized that DHD's jab loop is susceptible to the "0% multihit" bug.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

What is everyone's opinion on delaying the detonation of the clay pigeons (especially after the first hit deals damage on the opponent)?

Depends on the circumstances. A no shot at all can give you an opening (as you can then follow up with another attack in-place of the shot when they flinch - such as a close move like grab), and against shield-to-jumpers it can confuse them (as it nearly always deflects upwards off a shield which can be shot at to punish a jump). Don't expect it to drop back down though (for some sort of cool frisbee->shield grab->shot combo).

Shooting it earlier than normal is advisable against reflector types like Fox. Done right it destroys the pigeon before impact but the shot still hits the target. You might encounter the issue of the three shots firing but a pigeon still being reflected, though.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Imagine it. If DHD sideb gets less recovery, sideb into grab without detonating will probably work.

 

[TheWorstMuppet]

That'd be amaaaaaazing!

 

[outfoxd]

I want disc to be a grabbable item.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

I want disc to be a grabbable item.

It's better if it isn't, because it means we aren't vulnerable to our item being stolen like ROB or Mega Man.

Ah, those poor ROBs...

 

[DunnoBro]

So I just noticed the new A + B = Smash mechanic gives duck hunt something unique. It lets him input the "Shot" command for frisbee, and start charging a smash at the same time. (Or sooner at least)

I found a true combo into usmash off frisbee at nearly all percents. Even kill percents.

You simply Frisbee > Dash > > Delay shot after frisbee hit confirm > Hit B to shoot then while still holding down B press A to initiate running usmash (need tap jump)

Issue is his usmash is so ass it only really combos into the start-up hit Doesn't connect into the strong hit very often.

I had more success going Frisbee > A + B Shoot > A + B Pivot JC Usmash

The reverse hit takes longer to come out but is still true at most distances, and scoops better... But holy crap is doing all this really hard. It already demands you be frame perfect for the Shot + Smash but doing pivot usmash with A + B is just obnoxious

 

[WispBae]

So I just noticed the new A + B = Smash mechanic gives duck hunt something unique. It lets him input the "Shot" command for frisbee, and start charging a smash at the same time. (Or sooner at least)

I found a true combo into usmash off frisbee at nearly all percents. Even kill percents.

You simply Frisbee > Dash > > Delay shot after frisbee hit confirm > Hit B to shoot then while still holding down B press A to initiate running usmash (need tap jump)

Issue is his usmash is so *** it only really combos into the start-up hit Doesn't connect into the strong hit very often.

I had more success going Frisbee > A + B Shoot > A + B Pivot JC Usmash

The reverse hit takes longer to come out but is still true at most distances, and scoops better... But holy crap is doing all this really hard. It already demands you be frame perfect for the Shot + Smash but doing pivot usmash with A + B is just obnoxious

Can you record a video of you doing it? Perhaps if we all looked into it, we could find a way to make it work a bit better.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yea I'll try getting to it later.

Also I found out at higher percents it actually works better since the opponent goes into tumble and the altered hurtbox lets it connect better... But we're talking like 120-140+ :/

I think what would be better is instead of trying to true combo is just keep charging the usmash to punish an air dodge... Though kara fsmash would probably be better there.

Also, I've started following up clay pigeon with another clay pigeon instead of fair at high percents. It isn't a true combo, but it does frame trap well and if the second one connects, that one DOES true combo into upair while the opponent is super high up. I killed a rosalina with the combo that started around 50 on anther's lol.

It works best on mid/floaty chars, preferably without combo breaker aerials. On fast fallers you gotta SH the pigeon toss sometimes and they also just don't die to it as well.

Main issue is there's really no reason not to air dodge :/ I guess offstage you could read it and dair, but so high up and with as weak as dair is I think nair/fair is just as good.

Also been using more aerial clay pigeons... Since duck hunt can move in the same direction while tossing, if it connects it kill combos much better. Really suggest using a shoulder jump button to do this since it's the only comfortable way to do it.

 

[DunnoBro]

Here's the dthrow set-ups I've been working on: http://i.imgur.com/kxkdUSY.webm

Edit: Only air dodge punish and point blank stuff seems really legit.

 

[outfoxd]

Here's the dthrow set-ups I've been working on: http://i.imgur.com/kxkdUSY.webm

What kind of adjustments need to be made in terms of fall speed, if any?

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Here's the dthrow set-ups I've been working on: http://i.imgur.com/kxkdUSY.webm

I knew those frisbees had a secret purpose! Woo!

 

[DunnoBro]

What kind of adjustments need to be made in terms of fall speed, if any?

FullHopping/Short hopping the second frisbee, some characters just stay low. And after dthrow you may need to double jump frisbee on floaties to catch their jumps at higher percents, it's way less guaranteed at that point but converts into kills better than "throw off ledge > can" stuff.

Also on floaties you generally have to follow their DI really hard with your short hop to punish their air dodge. Rising short hop or falling matters a lot so recognize what angle they'll have to be at if they air dodge out of hitstun.

In my experience when I have to do this to floaties, I can't follow up with uair, either because they're too high or went off stage... but smash toss frisbee puts them at a more diagonal angle so rising can is MUCH harder to avoid "will catch a jump or air dodge out of hitstun" and that close to the blastzone it'll kill.

Also for those wondering, in the gif after the training mode combo there is DI applied. Note how far sheik goes during the air dodge punish but still dies due to how meaty the uair hitbox is.

Edit: Also I'm quickly learning while this combo works on heavy fast fallers like falcon forever, it still takes forever to kill him. Since they stay so low, I think it's best to look for dair, still combos (on them specifically) and since they're lower, faster falling... Either better kill chance off stage or tech chase on stage. If they miss the tech onstage, you can get another frisbee

 

[Perris6]

FullHopping/Short hopping the second frisbee, some characters just stay low. And after dthrow you may need to double jump frisbee on floaties to catch their jumps at higher percents, it's way less guaranteed at that point but converts into kills better than "throw off ledge > can" stuff.

Also on floaties you generally have to follow their DI really hard with your short hop to punish their air dodge. Rising short hop or falling matters a lot so recognize what angle they'll have to be at if they air dodge out of hitstun.

In my experience when I have to do this to floaties, I can't follow up with uair, either because they're too high or went off stage... but smash toss frisbee puts them at a more diagonal angle so rising can is MUCH harder to avoid "will catch a jump or air dodge out of hitstun" and that close to the blastzone it'll kill.

Also for those wondering, in the gif after the training mode combo there is DI applied. Note how far sheik goes during the air dodge punish but still dies due to how meaty the uair hitbox is.

Edit: Also I'm quickly learning while this combo works on heavy fast fallers like falcon forever, it still takes forever to kill him. Since they stay so low, I think it's best to look for dair, still combos (on them specifically) and since they're lower, faster falling... Either better kill chance off stage or tech chase on stage. If they miss the tech onstage, you can get another frisbee

This is greatness

 

[outfoxd]

This is greatness

Landed it once on a yoshi in a match. This is shiny and chrome.

 

[DunnoBro]

After more testing, it seems best to just fair after dthrow to catch jump aways. Yea, frisbee works SOMETIMES but very inconsistent, and sourspot fair actually sets up for frisbee too.

On faster fallers at lower percents it created a tech opportunity where if they fail, frisbee works... And in the air, it puts them at a really good angle for frisbee. Not a true combo, but it DOES force them to use their jump TOWARDS you i.e frame traps for uair.

Also if you get uair at lower percents, I've tried fading back with frisbee to catch air dodges. Haven't been able to convert kills with it yet, but nice to finish off a uair string.

This makes them more likely to actually air dodge so we can get the stronger, more guaranteed punish.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Just to add DunnoBro, in testing your down-throw to frisbee->frisbee->uair setup (which I agree seems a bit finckly), it seems on lower percents (70%, compared to 100%) the explosive can, can take the place of down-throw (because it launches them with the same sort of angle). Because it starts at a lower percent, I'm having trouble using it to setup as a kill, but the can does offer a fast frame alternative.

 

[DunnoBro]

Dthrow to Frisbee > Frisbee was never a thing. You only get the double frisbee if the first frisbee started around ground level (i.e after an air dodge) Otherwise it was just dthrow > fribee > aerial

And yea, you can trick shot but it doesn't follow-up consistently it just chases. At that point you're better off throwing them offstage imo.

The flow chart is:

Fthrow > DA/Fair until it stops working

Then Dthrow > Fair / Dthrow > Uair / Dthrow > SH to bait air dodge > Frisbee to punish air dodge.

This racks up damage and earns positioning better. If you like the position it sent them at you can throw a frisbee to frame trap for uair or frisbee itself.

Generally if frisbee hits after this, you can't follow up with another or kill with Uair. You CAN however kill with rar bair at times in this situation since it follows up and kills better at lower %. Or fair/nair at higher percents if it hit them offstage.

At higher percents, I've been just jumping up and trick shotting to where frisbee will release them trying to catch a jump or air dodge. I don't chase too hard and let the can drop o make that area a "no-zone" and hopefully catch their no jump landing with frisbee more easily and convert that into a kill.

Then if you suspect or see them ever air dodging, throw out frisbee. At the percents double frisbee kills of an air dodge, they really shouldn't be air dodging but often they do =p Be sure to pretty much always short hop after dthrow.

Also lol I'm stupid dude. There's like no point to SNS shot except to cover very low % edgeguards that likely won't kill.

It's best to just trick shot away, wait, and dash attack for a regular reverse sourspot. It's quicker, easier, more consistent, goes higher/farther, and the chase back to the stage overlaps well with shot amounts so you can get the "flash" to challenge their ledge hang/get-up.

Sucks you can't both get the can back and stage spike with it though

You don't get the benefit of "whoa i thought it was just a regular dash attack" but those level of mindgames at the cost of efficiency don't seem worth it. Also, the positioning DHD acquires by setting up into the stage lets him set up gunmen/frisbee to challenge their return to neutral better.

Edit: At lower/iffy angles when you're not sure double frisbee will connect after an air dodge punish, dair them. It can set up another frisbee chance or combo opportunity.

Edit2: Due to types of recoveries, reverse shot cans are less effective per character. It seems like it's vastly more effective just to recall the can back to the ledge so you can time it to challenge their get-up options rather than directly challenge the recovery of some characters.

I'm gonna make a list later, but here's my current general flowchart:

Floaties: Chase, can hovers at their fall speed very well.
Chars with the ability to recover high: Aim to cover the ledge unless they can't anymore.
Chars that can only ledge snap safely: Challenge it unless the hitbox is just too good

*Only low recovery chars will generally true combo into uair at kill percents. Otherwise it's best to follow di and can again, with no jump they can't air dodge to avoid it and even with a jump it's hard at this angle.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

I've got an unusual approach in my tactics (and wanted your opinion as you're more experienced DunnoBro) - when I start a 'combo' someone can DI out of, I usually use a one-two approach to cover both main options (either moving forward or moving back), via a forward air or frisbee.

So for example, say I hit with a can and they're in range: I attempt to forward air (on the assumption they might move towards or remain neutrally placed), but if it fails (IE they pull back), I pull back (to prevent punish) with quick drop and frisbee on landing to intercept their further landing/roll recovery, and sometimes this will work (the fair leads into a frisbee into an fair...).

However, on the second frisbee, it's classically out of sync (so fair->frisbee landing->fair will hit optimally, but the next frisbee won't), where the opponent has too high a percent and too much space/movement that, excepting heavy and large characters, will miss (and even with heavy/large, might miss anyway). Given the distance, I was wondering if you had any suggestions on how to close down that fourth hit? Close range moves don't work as they're too far, can is too slow, and gunman hits the same issue as the frisbee. Dashing hits shield or getup attack recovery, and grab hits getup attack recovery or dodge. So at the moment I'm throwing the second frisbee as a luck shot attempt and standing there. Any ideas for what move I could swap frisbee with in the second attempt?

 

[DunnoBro]

So for example, say I hit with a can and they're in range: I attempt to forward air (on the assumption they might move towards or remain neutrally placed), but if it fails (IE they pull back), I pull back (to prevent punish) with quick drop and frisbee on landing to intercept their further landing/roll recovery, and sometimes this will work (the fair leads into a frisbee into an fair...)

It just really depends on the situation. Trick shot most consistently chases and pressures an opponent, fair stuffs an approaching opponent best, and frisbee can do both but is less reliable while giving much more reward.

Judge which you need most at the time.

However, on the second frisbee, it's classically out of sync (so fair->frisbee landing->fair will hit optimally, but the next frisbee won't), where the opponent has too high a percent and too much space/movement that, excepting heavy and large characters, will miss (and even with heavy/large, might miss anyway). Given the distance, I was wondering if you had any suggestions on how to close down that fourth hit? Close range moves don't work as they're too far, can is too slow, and gunman hits the same issue as the frisbee. Dashing hits shield or getup attack recovery, and grab hits getup attack recovery or dodge. So at the moment I'm throwing the second frisbee as a luck shot attempt and standing there. Any ideas for what move I could swap frisbee with in the second attempt?

If they're too low for a second frisbee hit, it's best to dair. This can stage bounce them for another frisbee chance or if they go higher you can just follow up with an aerial (nair seems best ease to damage ratio)

However if they're at kill percent, a well spaced RAR bair can do the job too. It's a bit difficult but it does true combo and it kills fast fallers (ho tend to not go high enough for double frisbee) very well.

If they're just too high a percent, take what you can get. An aerial or at worst follow their DI and trick shot. It doesn't true combo but it's hard to escape from due to the angling. Just don't focus too much on the shots because if they air dodge and the can doesn't catch it itself, dhd won't be able to react quick enough himself to punish it with upair. But overall it's a reliable frame trap at those percents still.

 

[lilinuyasha]

All this meta talk and I'm like "Frisbee Nair. Yeah, I just contributed. SUCK IT DUNNOBRO. I CONTRIBUTED."

Love ya, bro.

 

[DunnoBro]

Whoaaa, I totally forgot the landing lag on nair was reduced. That actually makes reverse shotting with nair SUPER potent.

Just trick shot > SHFF Nair with the backside of the move.

You can sweetspot nair but it's essentially just bair.

This does a few things better than bair:

1: Lower, slower angle. Meaning better harassment for recoveries. (Though there's less space it can be launched off the stage from)
2: Easier. Both to execute and control.
3: Frame traps landings better due to the lingering hitbox of nair protecting dhd's area and of course the can
4: I THINK It lets us combo off it better since it's moving slower thus giving us more time to get out of endlag, or maybe it's just i feel more time to respond... Either way, it's something.
5: It's just a more deceiving animation. Bair obviously looks like it makes the can launch at you, nair like this doesn't.

And it just like... More naturally hovers near the stage spike/ledge get-up area. Both of which convert into kills nicely. They remind me of MisterEric's ledge set-ups with gyro.

Edit: Hmm, another potential kill-setup.

When you hit with frisbee in the air, it seems like if you choose NOT to fire it and just RAR bair it, the act of hitting the frisbee elongates the duration of the hitbox to last through a potential airdodge.

The issue is, they can just jump and avoid it. (Though this lets you time the shots longer) Probably not worth going for but something to consider maybe.

I'm also finding BF to be an awful duck hunt stage now. The kill set-ups just do NOT work at the percents they kill at consistently.

FD is... Okay as it enables more consistent frisbee strings but big blastzones hurt too. I'd say always strike those too.

The close side blast zones of sv let bair/nair kill well, and duck hunt loves the low ceiling of T&C/Dreamland.

And @Shady Penguin was right on the money about Brood's footsies. Lots of SHing and SH fairs is exactly what DHD needs to be doing. His grounded game is very mediocre, also just fairing the can is more potent than ftilt/dtilt.

 

[lilinuyasha]

Personally, I find that DH is best on FD. Can setups are better and more reliable. BF is, yes, my worst nightmare in stages, along with delfino plaza.

I'll try and use those frisbee strings you're tlaking about. They seem interesting.

Currently, what I'm trying to get down is the frisbee -> RAR Bair. I just kind of discovered it on my own and feel like it's more effective than a Fair.

 

[DunnoBro]

Personally, I find that DH is best on FD. Can setups are better and more reliable. BF is, yes, my worst nightmare in stages, along with delfino plaza.

I'll try and use those frisbee strings you're tlaking about. They seem interesting.

Currently, what I'm trying to get down is the frisbee -> RAR Bair. I just kind of discovered it on my own and feel like it's more effective than a Fair.

FD's blastzones are just so big and no platforms means less frame traps which means harder time killing. Can set-ups are not better, they're just more reliable. Only smashville really screws up the can sometimes anyway.

FD's not awful and is the right choice vs some chars but it's definitely 2nd worst starter for him in most MUs.

And regular frisbee > rar bair's been a thing for a while.

 

[lilinuyasha]

FD's blastzones are just so big and no platforms means less frame traps which means harder time killing. Can set-ups are not better, they're just more reliable. Only smashville really screws up the can sometimes anyway.

FD's not awful and is the right choice vs some chars but it's definitely 2nd worst starter for him in most MUs.

And regular frisbee > rar bair's been a thing for a while.

I'm sure it's been a thing for a while. I've just never paid attention to it. I'm a little behind the times.

I also like playing on Duck Hunt. The home field advantage psychological boost is strong with me.

 

[outfoxd]

I get a lot done on Delfino especially in transitions. Sometimes if you play smart you can get the walk off. It just seems like the platform setups really work for me. Also i operate under the assumption that i can disengage until the stage fits the opponent I'm fighting.

 

[DunnoBro]

I have a love/hate relationship with delfino.

Overall since duck hunt's a floaty, prone to getting comboed character with poor mobility, things can go very wrong for him there. Of course his versatile kit let things go very right for him there sometimes too, so weigh the risk/reward for yourselves.

But generally, any character with any kind of vertical grab combo is better than DH here imo.

 

[Reizilla]

Duck Hunt is always my first ban. Too much space and walls, plus only having the little tree as a reliable platform. The ducks and dog also screw up my projectile game a lot.

 

[DunnoBro]

Duck Hunt is always my first ban. Too much space and walls, plus only having the little tree as a reliable platform. The ducks and dog also screw up my projectile game a lot.

Only specific characters like that stage. (Peach, Wario, Ness, Pacman, Sonic... campy or off the side killers) and most people hate it. But yea it does screw us up a bit. I personally wouldn't use my ban on it unless i knew their char was good there cause I doubt they know or care what stage my char is bad on as much as their char is good on.

 

[TheWorstMuppet]

Thats a good point actually, Dunnobro. I usually tend to ban it right off the bat out of my dislike for it. It's just too big. What Reizilla said.

 

[lilinuyasha]

Yeah, but playing on Dh as DH and winning is potentially the best troll ever. In fact, in Smash, that's as good as it gets.

 

[DunnoBro]

Dthrow > RAR Bair seems to be a thing on some chars if they're not air dodging... Also better for punishing the air dodging at higher percents by the ledge where frisbee won't combo/connect well.

Still testing though but in theory it should work. The sweetspot actually comes out quicker than fair so that should alleviate some of the time spent turning around, so the main issue is loss of range.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Yeah, but playing on Dh as DH and winning is potentially the best troll ever. In fact, in Smash, that's as good as it gets.

I almost feel like it's defending my own territory when duck hunt's level crops up.

As pure convenience has it, it seems I always get the hardcore players on that level, and I almost feel like a boss level: 'defeat duck hunt duo to progress!'.

 

[Perris6]

Dthrow > RAR Bair seems to be a thing on some chars if they're not air dodging... Also better for punishing the air dodging at higher percents by the ledge where frisbee won't combo/connect well.

Still testing though but in theory it should work. The sweetspot actually comes out quicker than fair so that should alleviate some of the time spent turning around, so the main issue is loss of range.

I'm finding the range an issue as well as my opponents jumping out of it in time, but we can continue to look into it.

 

[Perris6]

Also, I am finding Fthrow --> Nair --> Regrab a thing. It's pretty good.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

If your opponent is a fast faller and immediately air dodges on down-throw (such they land in-front of you), keep doing aerial moves you know will miss after down-throw (to encourage the air dodge), and then when you need to KO them - down throw then forward smash A. Their air dodge classically ends as they fall down into a fatal smash move. Works well on Bowsers, I find.

Another one is down-throw->can (on low percents). Don't shoot the can, just try to raise your shield - what will happen is the air dodger will fall down into the can (the air dodge will end intersecting the can) and then boom. Follow up with fair or frisbee or whatever your preference is. There's a chance of self-harm, but they will take more damage than you.

For your down-throw->bair, don't turn around: jump past them then bair (you should intersect and hit). Your main issue will be fall speed (for heavy weights) or jump (for light/air types). You'll get a feel for which ones it works with.

 

[WispBae]

Well, I don't think it's been noted here or there, and I'm not sure where else to put this info...

I was messing around in training mode yesterday and found a glitch with Doggy. If we could actually use the glitch in tourney, it would be a ridiculous buff to Doggy in tourney (kind of).

I don't actually know if it counts as a "glitch" or an oversight by the programmers but... When the game speed is lower than 1/2 (via a timer or by the time controls in training), all of Doggy's Smashes are doubled. This means whenever a smash would do 2%, it will hit twice and do 4%

So F-Smash goes from 17% to 34%, D-Smash goes from 16% to 32% and U-Smash goes from 14% to 28%. My thoughts are that there are actually 6 hitboxes in all the smashes, perhaps in their testing they noticed that landing all the hits of the smashes were not too reliable (where as now they seem to be a little better), so they put 6 hits in there to catch opponents moving around. So the programming must have it to negate all but 3 hits of damage for the 6 hitboxes in normal gamespeed. Perhaps slowed down the game registers that all 6 hits are connecting instead of 3.

So if you hit with hitbox 2, you will get 3 hits, hitbox 4, 2 hits, and hitbox 6, that last final hit.

Also, gunmen can hit multiple opponents if their hurtboxes are colliding with each other. Shots don't go through opponents, but they do go through the can, so more projectile testing is needed.

edit: This does not affect other moves that have a reticule (Sour Spot Cans, Clay Shooting)

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Ah, Wispy, this is something I can contribute on, although at the time I didn't think it was useful.

Slower frame rates causes the can (at least this was the case prior to 1.1.0, don't know if they fixed that) to launch further. To test this, simply enter training mode, on normal speed deploy can and execute a typical f-smash on it (use c-stick or d-pad or what have you). Now repeat this at half speed - the can will travel further.

As a games programmer myself, I can say this is a bug (a major one because I think it affects all characters, not just DHD), because someone has based physics calculations (EG gravity etc) on the frame rate, assuming it would be normal speed (rather than dividing it in half if it's half speed etc), which seems to be some sort of formulae that involves frame rate compared to real time (so the can travels further because, in my theory, there's fewer frames to exert normal gravity IE it stays airborne twice as long at 1/2 speed).

It's further verified by the fact you can't fast forward or rewind replays, and why earlier versions become corrupt in newer updates (because they change how the players moves work and thus older versions use older physics).

This is a bad practice by Nintendo.

For us gamers, if we gain an advantage at slower frame rates, we can force this in one of two ways. Obviously no tournament will purposefully pick half speed, so how do we achieve this?

We pick levels that have higher graphical demands on the system. We can also pick characters that produce a lot of particle effects. More active objects on-screen means more objects for the CPU to deal with (so think team battles and lots of active items). If the CPU can't keep pace, what will happen is it will drop a few frames (which to us appears as lag or 'jumpy' motion: it's hard to tell in an online match as latency has a similar appearance, but if it's offline you know for sure it's CPU lag) so it can play catch up.

Essentially, to gain the damage buff, you would have to purposefully pick laggy, active levels, ideally in a team match, with a lot of on-screen activity, with the forward-smash occurring at the point of the lag spike.

Given Nintendo have terrible graphical and CPU optimisations for a 2-dimensional (that is physical sense, not visually) game, this is pretty easy to achieve.

If you want some 'obvious' CPU lag, drop a ton of X-bombs in training and set them off. You should see it 'jutter' - that's the CPU dropping frames to keep up.