Meta "The Dog House" - Duck Hunt Moveset/AT Thread/Metagame Discussion

[DunnoBro]

Quick gunmen actually seem best with zigzag now.

They resource it better, and cover rolls which is the counter to zigzag... Also let it pressure and zone super hard while using zigzag.

And it pops them up for zigzag to combo.

Also aside from the out of shield option, I'm starting to gravitate back towards default recovery... Zigzag and quick cover for it really well, but snag doesn't allow for much timing mix-up when offstage.

I'll give it some more time, though.

 

[DunnoBro]

Went back to default recovery for a while and practiced against ChuDat's sheik and it's absurd edgeguarding. It did help me recover in some situations, it's pretty nice to be able to throw out quick gunmen AND zigzag while recovering... But if you're too low for either it's simply directly inferior.

Also, after getting more used to it, snag helps wayyyy more in the neutral as it provides duck hunt with a reliable OoS and get-up option. Empty hops grabs and fast, spaced aerials into grabs don't really work on him anymore. It makes him much harder to rushdown and his shield much strong. (For a character who can still be offensive while shielding, this is pretty huge)

It also may be a reliable OOS spindash punish, but I couldn't do it consistently... A timing or actual usage issue, I'm not sure.

A frame 1 out of shield option is nothing to scoff at, regardless. It doesn't kill and only does about 8%, but it can get opponents off you or most likely off-stage, which is where DHD shines.

I also tried super duck jump for a while, and it was easily the worst option as I actually got gimped. Your trajectory is far more obvious and you have less time to cover your recovery.

But the gunmen, and can are definitely verrry matchup specific.

Default gunmen is far better anti-rushdown. But quick is better pressure. Mega is a shutdown option.

Against chars like sheik, sonic, and falcon, the default gunmen consistently put the "no-zone" in their general boxing area.
Against characters like R.O.B, Villager, and Kirby who try to fight you in the zoning game and are more likely to jump/roll away than rush you down after seeing gunmen come out, quick gunmen seem better.
And mega seems mostly only good for stuffing out another characters projectiles, it doesn't provide much help if it isn't locking out some of their options.

Also, default can + snag seems to make the kamikazi combos more consistent... It doesn't hit upward so it may not kill, but it is frame 1 meaning no one can beat DHD when they're that close to each other now.

 

[Mr.Pikachu]

Ok I have two questions. One, I can never seem to beat rush down characters no matter what. What custom set should I use to counter them? Also what MUs or situations would you use snag for? I constantly use the whirlwind custom up-b, but sometimes get gimped because I have a hard time coming back horizontally. I tried using snag, but I felt like every time I go deep, I end up not making it back.

 

[DunnoBro]

Ok I have two questions. One, I can never seem to beat rush down characters no matter what. What custom set should I use to counter them? Also what MUs or situations would you use snag for? I constantly use the whirlwind custom up-b, but sometimes get gimped because I have a hard time coming back horizontally. I tried using snag, but I felt like every time I go deep, I end up not making it back.

You can't go too deep with snag, but you can't really go deep with any of his customs for different reasons...

Snag helps against rushdown a lot, since rushdown characters generally work due to a lot of safe-on shield or boxing pressure. A lot of those become not safe on duck hunt's shield now.

It's a little scary and medium risk low reward unless you can combo them into zigzag, but he really needed some sort of "get off me" option and is overall more self-sufficient now.

I use snag in all matchups though, have yet to find one it doesn't help in except maybe characters with disjoints/projectiles that don't really rush him or his shield down to begin with.

I'm still not using it as much as I could, but my god the pressure Boss's Luigi and Chudat's Sheik used to put on me was unbearable because I'd just get stuck in these situations where I couldn't reliably get them off me... Now I can. It doesn't make DHD some impenetrable wall now, but it does give him more chances to try to be one.

In the sheik and fox matchup, it seems like default can might be best. Small, mobile characters that generally stay grounded make it hard for zigzag to pressure them. Also default messes with phantasm/bouncing more.

It could just be I'm more used to the default MUs though.

Default gunmen in general help with rushdown since they provide a reliable "no-zone" but fox can just reflect it. So I think quick are best in that MU. Mega might have applications with zigzag and blocking lasers though. He mostly stays at shot-level so it seems like a consistent threat against him, too.

The mega gunmen could have real potential against rushdown since they're reliable stage control. (And can be set-up while landing) Though I wish they didn't hit so inconsistently.

 

[Mr.Pikachu]

Ok so snag, zigzag, quick gunmen and clay pigeon (3122) should be the recommended set against rushdown right? Also I haven't heard much input about high explosive can and clay break. I use high explosive can frequently in conjunction with mega gunmen against other projectiles users. I try to use clay break against aerial characters like Kirby, but I'm not entirely sure if it's actually effective against them. I hit them sometimes with it making them use more ground based approaches and other times it just completely misses. You have any info regarding those custom moves?

 

[DunnoBro]

Ok so snag, zigzag, quick gunmen and clay pigeon (3122) should be the recommended set against rushdown right? Also I haven't heard much input about high explosive can and clay break. I use high explosive can frequently in conjunction with mega gunmen against other projectiles users. I try to use clay break against aerial characters like Kirby, but I'm not entirely sure if it's actually effective against them. I hit them sometimes with it making them use more ground based approaches and other times it just completely misses. You have any info regarding those custom moves?

The gunmen is more specific than just rushdown... Default is better against falcon/sheik, but quick against fox/sonic due to how little default helps and quick can more efficiently pressure them.

And yea, I used to think clay break was better against short hoppers/aerial approaches like kirby, but generally only with the default can since it's a more long-ranged projectile. Clay break has hitboxes further away from DHD so you're giving up some anti-rushdown and a landing option. It's probably fine since it is potent in some matchups, but you need the defense default can allows to make proper use of it imo.

It might be better against reflectors too due to no hitbox unless activated, and not sure the shots even can be reflected. (though reflectors do protect the user from the shots it seems)

 

[DunnoBro]

3323 seems like the best EVO set to use against sonic.

Default/Quick gunmen and Frisbee are soooo risky to use on sonic when if you fail, he'll close that gap with a grab in an instant.

Also the shots of clay break seem to have enough priority/AoE to beat spindash at range sometimes. You essentially have to treat megaman like a projectile user/camper because he essentially is.

Mega gunmen locks down his position or forces an approach. Against other characters they'd just jump, but a sonic isn't really going to do that. They also make his fair, spinshot, and dash attack very laggy due to hitlag and pretty punishable. Spindash is effected slightly since it slows him down, but you need to be further away from the gunmen than standard spawn point for that to be relevant.

1323 so you can camp behind mega and the can while pestering with clay break from afar might be superior in the neutral, but it's neither in the EVO sets and it also seems way harder to kill sonic with still.

Also, one little thing about clay break and zigzag is that you can fake people out by zigzagging towards them, then shooting clay break and mashing B. It will turn the zigzag around while then shooting the clay shot.

I also like that when zigzag hits people away, I can throw a clay break to try and follow-up. I really like the range on it, I just wish it could hit closer up and help us land like default.

 

[Mr.Pikachu]

@ DunnoBro What are some of your set ups with the normal can? Sometimes I see you dash attack it and it goes far up in from of DHD, but then when you shoot it, it comes back. How do you do that?

(PS- I really appreciate you being a dedicated DHD main and you're really informational on everything DHD can do and more. You really show his potential in the game!)

 

[DunnoBro]

I posted about it before, I call it the "soursweetspot reverse shot"

When you dash attack the can just as it's landing, it will go forward but when shot again it will come back. It'll look like you hit it normally, but make the sourspot noise when you hit.

The only way to really make use of that reliably is:

Trick shot >shoot the can once > dash attack.

It's possible to do it without shooting it once, but it gives it a generally less favorable trajectory, doesn't fake out opponents thinking it's going straight up to them, and also just plain makes it really hard to do.

This is an overall superior way to pressure opponents above you when you have the time, since it lets you cover multiple options.
(including air dodges and jumps) And if you purposely alter the timing in the event you notice them jumping behind you/your cans original trajectory, you can get the normal sourspot letting the can go behind DHD, or the normal sweetspot to have it momentum cancel in the normal fashion. (Generally useful for if you notice them going offstage/jumping away from the stage)

It's virtually impossible for them to know which way you shot/are going to shoot it until you actually do. So there's never a right decision they can make in that situation.

It's a pretty tricky timing and it's taken a long time to find out how to utilize it in real matches, but the sheer fact even failing to hit them this way results in you keeping the can on-stage and nearby makes it worth doing.

Also downthrow is the main mix-up.

You condition them to either air dodge for upair/fair follow-up so you can fsmash/usmash at mid percents, then the same but for nair at higher percents. Dthrow > SH can is a substitute for can if jumping away is also an option so you can still pressure them if they chose to jump instead of air dodging.

Dthrow mix-ups is something I started using just recently and honestly against a lot of characters, it's more worth it to just always dthrow so you can try for these instead of edgeguards. DH gets a looooot of grabs for free so it's been easy to condition people.

 

[outfoxd]

Makes me so glad that we weren't saddled with a tether or slow grab like the other projectile heavy characters.

 

[DunnoBro]

Eh, nah. 3323 and 1323 are pretty ass. Clay break is sooo unreliable in the neutral.

1123 is probably best against rushdown(fox/sonic/sheik). Just lots of reliable walling to put up.

Those MUs are still bad but a little better like this.

 

[DunnoBro]

Okay, so after some more actual competitive experience, I was definitely wrong about the stages zigzag is good on.

It just REALLY needs platforms to enhance the pressure game, it creates tech chase and frame trap situations where they just can't avoid or airdodge it.

FD is total ass in my opinion, Guy likes it but i don't feel like it's really accentuating it's best features. You also have a harder time landing without the default can and FD is all landing. Smashville is okay because it helps land but in general it's not helping too much.

I'd say just always ban FD, avoid smashville for starters, and zigzag is pretty ridiculous. Even Kong Cyclone DK is child's play for Zigzag on BF.

Also I was wrong about 1123, it's IMPOSSIBLE to kill sonic/fox without zigzag. 3123 really helps force them into less safe positions.
Against sheik it might be fine, especially on smashville but in general I felt like zigzag helped more. Mega gunmen also make her aerial approaches actually somewhat punishable.

The reason I felt zigzag was less good was likely because I only played against ChuDat's Sheik on Omegas, and most other players there or smashville in friendlies. But after playing on mostly counterpicks for practice, it's just so insanely potent and versatile with platforms.

I wish there was a 3223 set for the sonic MU because rising straight beats spindash, and it also has potential for the "pure pressure" ideal I think duck hunt may be gravitating to with zigzag.

You can have mega gunmen, zigzag, and rising clay all pressuring opponents at the same time and none hinder each others abilities. No other combination has that possible.

Though in general, default clay covers rolls which is the go-to defense against mega and zigzag in the neutral. It also helps you land A LOT. Rising doesn't cause it can't lock opponents in shield long enough to protect you. There's also no combos off it except with zigzag really.

I just like it in the sonic MU cause he's gonna wanna camp you, and rising stuffs that hard. We have 3221, but default gunmen just die to spindash.

 

[CoonTail]

Out of curiosity is there frame data available for DHD?

I have started to utilize his cans to trade when I am about to be hit. I use it in a fashion very similar to how snake used grenades in brawl and wanted to know what frame the can comes out on & when it becomes active.

 

[outfoxd]

I use the can for the same reason a lot I'm guessing damn near instant doesn't count.

 

[CoonTail]

I use the can for the same reason a lot I'm guessing damn near instant doesn't count.

No I need exact frames to know if when the can is released if the hitbox is active and if not what frame the can becomes active on.

 

[lilinuyasha]

Hey guys. New guy here.

@ DunnoBro I've been watching some videos of you online, and some of your combos (Default, I presume) were a little weird, but I liked them enough. I'd like to play you sometimes to see how my own DH stacks up.

That being said, one thing I usually do with the can is, offstage, shoot it to where it's JUST on the stage. They're forced to retreat a little bit, which makes recovering a lot easier. I also have a habit of throwing out gunmen offstage towards the edge to where they have to shield. Since it's a random gunman, it can take a little bit of practice to figure out the timing to maximize the potential of the offstage gunmen, usually having various gunmen shoot high, middle, or wwaaaaaaaaaaaaay too close to the bottom of the stage, which takes the opponent by surprise sometimes, since they think it'll just miss.

I'm trying to get a lot better with the Bair can trick, but I haven't legitimately put time into that. I have a terrible shorthop game, and I'm recently trying to introduce short hop Nair and Dair into my subroutine. I'll get there eventually. I have videos of my playstyle on the Dog Show thread if you care.

I haven't unlocked most of the customs for DH yet, so I'll have to get that done soon. College keeps me busy.

But yeah. When i first picked up DH, i thought he was such a janky character that I wanted to get good with him if only to frustrate people and master that "Weird character" that nobody liked. After playing him a lot more, I found that he was definitely close to my playstyle (For this game. My previous main in Brawl was Lucas, so...) and thoroughly enjoyed him. Plus, he's a really cute Dalmation puppy.

 

[DunnoBro]

Hmm, seems like 3111 is very preferable in matchups against chars that can go deep for edgeguards. Strong fairs/good air mobility mostly.

But against chars that go for spikes or quick edgeguard attempts or have gimmicks like villager, sonic or falcon, you want snag to just freaking grab the thing ASAP.

Also definitely use default gunmen against pikachu... Mega and quick do nothing. Starting not to like quick at all, honestly but I haven't really labbed it out either I guess.

I wish there was a 3113 set now. Though 3123 is probably good enough, maybe I just need to get used to snag even more.

 

[WispBae]

Hmm, seems like 3111 is very preferable in matchups against chars that can go deep for edgeguards. Strong fairs/good air mobility mostly.

But against chars that go for spikes or quick edgeguard attempts or have gimmicks like villager, sonic or falcon, you want snag to just freaking grab the thing ASAP.

Also definitely use default gunmen against pikachu... Mega and quick do nothing. Starting not to like quick at all, honestly but I haven't really labbed it out either I guess.

I wish there was a 3113 set now. Though 3123 is probably good enough, maybe I just need to get used to snag even more.

That snag jump is just not worth it for recovering, IMO. Watching Guy drop stocks because of it's distance really turns me off to it. I quite like the Duck Jump though, especially against characters that are fast. Being able to stall before flying up makes recoveries harder to cover, especialy if you mix in a wall jump before hand, keep them guessing. Although Snag is less predictable, you don't really have the freedom to play near the bottom of the blast zone like you do with the others. Maybe with certain MU's would I consider snag, like against a Mario who loves to Fair.

If you have your mind set on snag, you'll pretty much have to use platforms to prevent punishes on the end of the move, similar to default recovery.

 

[lilinuyasha]

So, I think this belongs here, but I recently discovered a new trick that I use.

So normally, clay pidgeon connects into a dash attack. When they go into the air, however, I've noticed a lot of Fair. Recently, I've gotten into trying out my shorthop game, and found a combo that goes will after clay pidgeon at medium damage percentages. (50-70 for normal weight characters, can go as high as 120 for heavies) I've found that if they're too high off the ground for a dash attack, I'll run, shorthop, then Nair. It does more damage than a Fair, and that knockback helps DH set himself up for more combos After a certain point, the knock back is too high to go for the dash Nair, but it helps rack up damage quicker than usual.

 

[DunnoBro]

That snag jump is just not worth it for recovering, IMO. Watching Guy drop stocks because of it's distance really turns me off to it. I quite like the Duck Jump though, especially against characters that are fast. Being able to stall before flying up makes recoveries harder to cover, especialy if you mix in a wall jump before hand, keep them guessing. Although Snag is less predictable, you don't really have the freedom to play near the bottom of the blast zone like you do with the others. Maybe with certain MU's would I consider snag, like against a Mario who loves to Fair.

If you have your mind set on snag, you'll pretty much have to use platforms to prevent punishes on the end of the move, similar to default recovery.

It really depends on the matchup, but you're right, I really wish I submitted a 3113 set and I really regret underestimating default recovery.

The fact you can make zigzag go so high but stay in a general area makes it cover for default much better.

Snag helps a lot against characters who edgeguard via spikes/projectiles reliably (falcon, villager, megaman, etc), due to the speedy ascent. But this makes it more susceptible when the optimal option is to recover low (sheik, pikachu, dk, etc)

It also helps me edgeguard myself. I've started sh nairing from the ledge, then snagging back up to try and catch people recovering low. If I don't get the stage spike, I try to ledge drop dair. Not 100% sure if it's a true combo, but it is such a odd situation for them that it's likely to work, and if it doesn't, you're not likely to get punished.

In the case of pikachu and sheik though, it isn't a huge deal since the 3111 set is ideal in those matchups anyway.

Snag also helps DHD break out of certain combos/frame traps (jab locks, empty hop grab crap, jab mix-ups, etc)

Ex. I lost pretty decidedly to kenny the custom xanadu being uploaded today (despite it being 2:1, he SD'd) because I used 3123.

The gunmen did nothing, and my recovery cost me stocks and damage.

(I did the same this week vs Logic. Leave it to me to be the one to discover mega gunmen can't shoot pikachu and olimar reliably and thus are bad choices against them, but not actually utilize that knowledge in tournament)

The next custom tournament, I 2:0 Kenny and 2stock him game 2 with 3111. Default gunmen can actually shoot pikachu and default recovery lets me be trickier.

 

[DunnoBro]

I notice a lot of people when they start using zigzag make the mistake of just mashing B once they get a single hit, hoping for the janky auto combo. Stop doing that.

The auto-combo is nice, but it's only going to kill if you caught them fairly high up with it. Otherwise, if you hit them at ground or platform level, it's almost always better to hold your fire, and go for the upair/upsmash/nair. Mostly upair, as it will lock them in place while you're upairing, and let the can come back up and do extra damage while they're locked in.

It takes time getting used to, but this does more damage, puts them in a worse position (like so bad you can kill them if they air dodge while still high up and you read it with zigzag. I almost 0-death'd like this in the first 10 seconds against average joe and got really upset the rest of the match and kept trying to get it, even forgetting to CP him to duck hunt after I lost. I really wanted to style lol)...and getting in the habit of this accomplishes a few things:

1: When they are hit in, but the auto combo doesn't work, you can now be self-sufficient and combo your self. (Often enables the upair + can combo)

2: When it hits them out, it leaves the can in a better position to pressure their return to neutral. Or let you position or set up stage control more.

3: Sets up for kills better at later percents, get used to reading the air dodges because often they'll be too high for it to true combo into upair while it will kill. But they'll be air dodging right over you, so it's a great position regardless.

Also I think quick gunmen are actually the worst of the 3 gunmen, but still usable in some matchups.

Mega gunmen help a lot against ground-based rushdown, especially grab-happy chars like diddy and falcon. As well as other zoners.

But due to their inconsistency shooting characters like pikachu and olimar due to their height, and kirby/jiggly/wario due to their aerial campiness, I think quick to provide more aerial control and to pin them down would be best.

Though vs pikachu, default gunmen work well enough. Olimar not so much cause he wins at that range usually.

 

[Mr.Pikachu]

I notice a lot of people when they start using zigzag make the mistake of just mashing B once they get a single hit, hoping for the janky auto combo. Stop doing that.

The auto-combo is nice, but it's only going to kill if you caught them fairly high up with it. Otherwise, if you hit them at ground or platform level, it's almost always better to hold your fire, and go for the upair/upsmash/nair. Mostly upair, as it will lock them in place while you're upairing, and let the can come back up and do extra damage while they're locked in.

It takes time getting used to, but this does more damage, puts them in a worse position (like so bad you can kill them if they air dodge while still high up and you read it with zigzag. I almost 0-death'd like this in the first 10 seconds against average joe and got really upset the rest of the match and kept trying to get it, even forgetting to CP him to duck hunt after I lost. I really wanted to style lol)...and getting in the habit of this accomplishes a few things:

1: When they are hit in, but the auto combo doesn't work, you can now be self-sufficient and combo your self. (Often enables the upair + can combo)

2: When it hits them out, it leaves the can in a better position to pressure their return to neutral. Or let you position or set up stage control more.

3: Sets up for kills better at later percents, get used to reading the air dodges because often they'll be too high for it to true combo into upair while it will kill. But they'll be air dodging right over you, so it's a great position regardless.

Also I think quick gunmen are actually the worst of the 3 gunmen, but still usable in some matchups.

Mega gunmen help a lot against ground-based rushdown, especially grab-happy chars like diddy and falcon. As well as other zoners.

But due to their inconsistency shooting characters like pikachu and olimar due to their height, and kirby/jiggly/wario due to their aerial campiness, I think quick to provide more aerial control and to pin them down would be best.

Though vs pikachu, default gunmen work well enough. Olimar not so much cause he wins at that range usually.

I've definitely been guilty of fishing for that auto combo and it frustrated me when I can't get it. The zigzag cans playstyle seems a lot more intricate and trap oriented than the regular can and I've had some trouble transitioning to zigzag from default can. I can definitely see the damage and kill potential of the can as their reaction is nearly always to air dodge like you said. Lately when I use the zigzag can, I put ALL of my focus into making the can hit my opponent which leaves me wide open to an attack. Using this can almost feels like I'm controlling two individual characters and to make the strategy work both needs to work together at the same time. Every time i play with that can though it's really tiring using the set ups and frame traps unlike other characters which makes DHD so special.

Anyways I've actually be messing around with the high-explosive can and I really really like it especially against reflectors and absorbers like Rosa because I always bait out their defensive options and punish it. High explosive can+mega gunmen you can have a REALLY campy match with this set. I also find the cans edgeguarding capabilities absolutely stunning. I feel like megaman actually has a hard time with this can being spammed at him especially given the long range of it and the only thing that will go through mega gunmen is his saw attack. I just feel as though all of DHDs custom cans are really really useful in some way, but you might have a different insight on it. Thank you for your continue effort and support in improving the DHD metagame and customs metagame in general! @ DunnoBro

 

[DunnoBro]

Mmm, the oneshot can seemed interesting to me at first too, but it's essentially a simpler zigzag. Same trajectory, but without the shield pressure and more reliably kill/frame trap/combo set-up.

Zigzag is also better for camping due to the fact it can pressure a shield but still exist, imo. Also zigzag is really hard to absorb/reflect if done right, several rosalinas and villagers have died to me in tournament for trying to absorb zigzag only for me to zig it, then zag it back in their endlag.

And yea, the zigzag is definitely much more complicated since it's less about walling/zoning out and more about trapping. You have to be much more mobile and mix it up more, especially when it comes to baiting air dodges.

I also like charging an fsmash when they hit the ledge and I have a zigzag out, either they get-up/roll on to get fsmash, or they stay on the ledge/jump up from the ledge for zigzag to hit them. Unfortunately, due to how precise it all is, you have to read more than react to actually hit, but zigzag can come back and protect you while in fsmash endlag so it's usually safe to try.

In fact, just randomly fsmashing is way safer now because zigzag can protect your zone. Also, people tend to roll/air dodge inward to avoid zigzag, and fsmash punishes this. Got GIMR, Boss, and many other players like this.

 

[Pyro-is-Magic]

Something that I haven't seen a lot of other Duck Hunt's using is Snag's combo potential with the Can. The Can thrives off of multi-hit moves like Up-Air and Jab Combo because of the time it gives the can to reach the oppenent, Snag is the absolute perfect move for this. OoS Snag is an option that a lot of people avoided becuase it didn't convert into much damage, but with Zig-Zag it becomes very easy to hand off your opponent from one hit-box to another. Also with Snag's ability to choose which direction to send the opponent in, it becomes ridicolously easy to set up this combo from anywhere on the stage.

Also is Quick Gunmen really that bad? With good spacing it becomes one of the strongest anti-aggresion tools in the game. The shot has godlike-priority and its really good at pressuring dashes, something that Duck Hunt struggles with greatly. It may not have the same setup ability as standard which gives Duck Hunt a great grab game, but it often grants Duck Hunt center stage control which is where he shines. Also I think Mega is the worse out of the three gunmen. It will have its niche for the ridiculous campy mathces, but in most scenarios, it just takes way to long to fire to make a meaningful impact. In the time it takes one Mega to fire, a regular gunmen could have fired two shots, and a quick gunmen could have fired from 3-4. I had previously mentioned that Duck Hunt struggles with dashing opponents, and eliminating the options of Normal and Quick to counter dashes for Mega which does absolutely nothing against dahses seems more like a negative then a plus.

 

[DunnoBro]

No, quick isn't bad at all. All the gunmen are good, it's just quick is the least helpful imo.

And yea, I think i mentioned snag + zigzag earlier. The fact you can turn snag around is really helpful... But the issue is, it will never really kill still and is pretty risky. Also, zigzag doesn't stay out that long so the timing is very strict. I'm sure it's worth going for some times, but I wouldn't consider it meta changing.

Also, the reason mega is good is due to the long-lasting pressure and camping position. You can mega gunmen, then walk in front of the gunmen and fight with him protecting you. It also creates a powerful snag effect with zigzag. The speed of the shot in relation to others is irrelevant compared to the superior stage control and positioning this one offers.

(It also sets up for kills sometimes)

Zigzag and mega gunmen work from similar ranges, the other gunmen don't. You can't pressure with zigzag and another projectile other than mega gunmen often.

I understand your feelings about mega, I thought it was bad too. (Honestly, thought all the gunmen were bad at first. default too) It's definitely match-up specific, but in general it's great for forcing approaches in my experience.

 

[Funkermonster]

How do you use the Zigzag Can? I keep hearing all these great things about it, but I'm still too used to Default Can and don't know what I'm doing with the zigzag.

 

[WispBae]

How do you use the Zigzag Can? I keep hearing all these great things about it, but I'm still too used to Default Can and don't know what I'm doing with the zigzag.

You gotta Zig Da can...

Den Zag da can...

duh

 

[DunnoBro]

How do you use the Zigzag Can? I keep hearing all these great things about it, but I'm still too used to Default Can and don't know what I'm doing with the zigzag.

I think the easiest way to learn using zigzag is in tandem with mega gunmen.

It provides easy, long lasting stage control while zigzag is used for pressure.

Mega gunmen is used at most of the times you'd use default trick shot. (I.e whenever you have free time and can set it up right)

Zigzag is best saved for when the opponent has been put into a bad situation. (thrown, dash attacked, etc) Or they are trying to camp you out, zigzag forces approaches or if not respected, along with mega gunmen can create an obstacle course/snare for the opponent to have to deal with, making your approach much more potent and safer.

Due to the awkward, short lifespan of zigzag, it's really not good to just throw it out in the neutral.

That said, I think there may be potential in quick gunmen + rising clay + zigzag.

Both interact with zigzag well, and your pressure options are absurd. Also, if you hit both the opponent and zigzag with quick aces or rising clay, it combos into zigzag reliably.

The issue though, is your neutral and return to neutral is shot and this game is pretty centralized around the neutral... Unless we can consistently pull off those zigzag auto kill combos, it might not be worth it for the most part.

So far, I think it might only be valid for the olimar matchup. You really need to force him to approach and quick gunmen are the only ones that really do anything vs him imo.

 

[Fik]

Don't know if this was known already, but it wasn't in the guide so I feel like I should state it anyway. Every gunman seems to have the same amount of range (being half of an omega stage) except for the one that deals the most damage, the sombrero gunner. From what I can tell, he seems to have about 1/3 of the distance of an omega stage. Just thought I'd point it out just in case people didn't know

 

[WispBae]

Don't know if this was known already, but it wasn't in the guide so I feel like I should state it anyway. Every gunman seems to have the same amount of range (being half of an omega stage) except for the one that deals the most damage, the sombrero gunner. From what I can tell, he seems to have about 1/3 of the distance of an omega stage. Just thought I'd point it out just in case people didn't know

Indeed the sombrero bro has the least range and most power, but the tall, lanky bro's range is actually the farthest, which is a bit more than half of FD.

 

[Fik]

Indeed the sombrero bro has the least range and most power, but the tall, lanky bro's range is actually the farthest, which is a bit more than half of FD.

So the most damaging has the least range, least damaging has most range, and rest have the same. Interesting!

 

[Mr.Pikachu]

Anyone have a list of punish options we could do to characters? I'm really really grab heavy when it comes to my opponent whiffing a move like a smash attack or lots of endlag on an attack and grabs aren't going to net me a kill by like 120%. I've heard about some punish options could be can>uair, RAR bair, and fsmash edgeguards, but I don't know any more than that.

 

[Fik]

If you're going for damage punishes with DH, my preferred combo is Frisbee into dash attack. Its almost always a guaranteed combo at low percents. At higher percent, the Frisbee will knock them a bit higher, so you can go for an up air (although this is air dodge-able, their initial reaction will either to spam their air dodge or neutral air, so try to read them and go for the punish).

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

From midstage or so, at low or mid percents, Clay --> (SH or Fullhop) (Tippered optional) FAir x1 or x2 or more with a 2nd jump (midjump or after landing on the ground) can also work as a high damage punish juggle.

 

[DunnoBro]

Got 2nd tonight at a custom tournament... Quick gunmen really helped me vs Logic's olimar tonight. No other gunmen does anything in that MU imo. Also really like the sheik MU now, 3:0'd chudat's sheik. It's really nice the combos work good on her.

Mega are too tall to shoot him, and don't block pikmin
The ranges default gunmen are good at, olimar is better at. Quick gunmen is a more reliably "position" lock and safe pressure tool, but it seems bad against most chars.

Don't really know any other MU I'd want quick gunmen anymore. Mega gunmen + Zigzag is such a safe, potent camping/pressure tool and quick gunmen needs too many risky reads to be good.

I only like quick vs olimar because he's zoney but mega don't block pikmin or shoot him, and default is too low to punish pikmin tosses at the proper ranges.

I prefer default vs pika tho, can't shoot him with mega either but it does block jolts... But pika's just gonna throw aerials or jolts at you a lot, at least default adds something to your offensive presence.

Twice now I've lost to pikachus while using mega gunmen, then beat them using default. (Though mostly because I REALLY want my default recovery vs pika and like 3111)

Also not 100% sure when to use default gunmen... Definitely think falcon or rosalina, chars with bad landings. Or chars with bad run speeds like jiggy or robin to force them into the air.

Mega if they even have a meh projectile like fireballs or eggs. Really good against ness cause it makes his dash attack and fair suuuper laggy and punishable due to the extension.

 

[DunnoBro]

Also I never really understood why sheik is considered so bad for DHD. Never lost to any sheik, Cree, Chudat, or the ones at apex. Not even close.

I really like how hard downthrow frame traps her, it is a total 50/50 for her to take the upair/fair or air dodge and risk getting fsmashed. Like half the stocks I got on chu tonight were from this set-up.

I think dr/mario, wario, and falcon are way worse matchups. With sonic and fox the absolute worst.

Also in customs, I think smashville is really bad for duck hunt. And FD, too. The smashville platform doesn't provide good spots to platform pressure with, and gives the opponent way too good camping positions. T&C is probably the best, nice and big with a low ceiling and good platforms. But lylat and BF are great too, the frame traps are super hard cause people either air dodge into the platforms or attack into them making them much easier to punish.

 

[Fik]

Personally I don't think Captain Falcon is that bad for Duck Hunt. While he may have incredible speed, he's tall and easy to land projectiles on. Plus, he doesn't have any projectiles himself or anything to reflect them with, so he's forced to approach you. This can be used to make them do stupid mistakes as they grow frustrated at your projectiles and do whatever they can to break your defense. As long as you're prepared for what they do once they break your wall of projectiles, you can even catch them off guard with your long ranged smash attacks. Sonic is bad because his side special parries with the projectiles and is very low to the ground during his run and roll. On top of that, he also has speed, so he's definitely the worst MU for Duck Hunt.

 

[WispBae]

Personally I don't think Captain Falcon is that bad for Duck Hunt. While he may have incredible speed, he's tall and easy to land projectiles on. Plus, he doesn't have any projectiles himself or anything to reflect them with, so he's forced to approach you. This can be used to make them do stupid mistakes as they grow frustrated at your projectiles and do whatever they can to break your defense. As long as you're prepared for what they do once they break your wall of projectiles, you can even catch them off guard with your long ranged smash attacks. Sonic is bad because his side special parries with the projectiles and is very low to the ground during his run and roll. On top of that, he also has speed, so he's definitely the worst MU for Duck Hunt.

I don't think it's sonic either, I regularly bop Sonic players, just by keeping can out and camping. All the spin dashes are fairly easy to counter as well, since you just shield them. Don't chase after sonic, just keep the game neutral and throw projectiles, and only grab after a projectile punish. Projectiles ruin almost every option for Sonic to get in.

 

[DunnoBro]

Personally I don't think Captain Falcon is that bad for Duck Hunt. While he may have incredible speed, he's tall and easy to land projectiles on. Plus, he doesn't have any projectiles himself or anything to reflect them with, so he's forced to approach you. This can be used to make them do stupid mistakes as they grow frustrated at your projectiles and do whatever they can to break your defense. As long as you're prepared for what they do once they break your wall of projectiles, you can even catch them off guard with your long ranged smash attacks. Sonic is bad because his side special parries with the projectiles and is very low to the ground during his run and roll. On top of that, he also has speed, so he's definitely the worst MU for Duck Hunt.

Falcon's bad due to in addition to his playstyle being the natural counter to a zoner, his weight + fall speed disallows you from getting too far ahead of him generally, and he can kill you at much lower percents than you can him. It's absolutely one of those one-sided "as long as I don't screw up" matchups.

I don't think it's sonic either, I regularly bop Sonic players, just by keeping can out and camping. All the spin dashes are fairly easy to counter as well, since you just shield them. Don't chase after sonic, just keep the game neutral and throw projectiles, and only grab after a projectile punish. Projectiles ruin almost every option for Sonic to get in.

You have to kill him eventually, early and neutral game vs sonic is fine. But when it's time to kill, he doesn't really ever get himself into overly poor positions, so you need to try for very risky kills generally that often result in your death when they fail.

See MVD vs 6WX for reference. MVD dominates early game, then simply loses momentum when it's time to kill and gets 2stocked.

MVD iirc also believes sonic is the worst MU.

 

[DunnoBro]

Well, with my car totaled I'm pretty much stuck at home. Expect me to actually deliver on all those videos I promised now that I'm off work + can't drive.

Might as well make the most of this.