The Debate Hall Social Thread

[RDK]

But Obama is going to use the money to fund overseas abortions and sweat shops! If you don't already know this, you are most likely an uninformed citizen or a terrorist.

Oh yeah and the Holocaust never happened. April Fools!

 

[Reaver197]

It's not so much that Republican's are political "geniuses" as that the media and general public are terrible at fact checking and critical thinking.

 

[KrazyGlue]

It's not so much that Republican's are political "geniuses" as that the media and general public are terrible at fact checking and critical thinking.

True, but the republicans are much better at taking advantage of this than the democrats are.

 

[Aesir]

Because Democrats think the general public is smart, when they're not.


edit:

Sotomayor is now my most favorite person for the time being. http://current.com/items/90980443_justice-sotomayor-end-corporate-personhood-maybe.htm

 

[KrazyGlue]

Interesting...

Basically, a woman and her kid were walking by this guy's yard at 5:30 in the morning, see this guy naked in his own house, by himself, and HE gets arrested. What the ****.

______________________


By the way, I don't know how many of you have read Freakonomics, but the sequel, Superfreakonomics, it now out in stores! If you haven't read them, they're very interesting and you should pick one up!

Wikipedia article on Freakonomics

 

[Aesir]

So anyone else finding this H1N1 vaccine to be a little alarming? It gets pushed through the FDA very quickly which leads me to believe it's not very safe. Any time the FDA pushes a drug through almost over night you got a potential health risk.

 

[manhunter098]

Creating a vaccine is a lot different than creating a new drug, there are several processes to follow, and most of the vaccine ingredients aside from the attenuated or deactivated virus are the same even in different vaccines. So essentially, its no more dangerous than any other vaccine using an attenuated virus would be.

 

[Aesir]

Creating a vaccine is a lot different than creating a new drug, there are several processes to follow, and most of the vaccine ingredients aside from the attenuated or deactivated virus are the same even in different vaccines. So essentially, its no more dangerous than any other vaccine using an attenuated virus would be.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/17/earlyshow/health/main5246940.shtml

(CBS) Many are concerned about whether a H1N1 vaccine will be safe. But now reports are out that a swine flu vaccine could cause GBS or Guillian-Barre Syndrome, a brain disorder.

Even if it is rare, I'd rather take my chances with the Flu. =|

 

[GoldShadow]

Do you get the normal, seasonal flu shot? Since the ingredients are essentially the same, seasonal flu shots carry the same risks as the H1N1 vaccine. If you're not worried about side effects from the normal flu vaccine, I wouldn't be worried about potential side effects of the H1N1 vaccine either.
http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/about/qa/flushot.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/gbs_qa.htm

 

[Aesir]

Do you get the normal, seasonal flu shot? Since the ingredients are essentially the same, seasonal flu shots carry the same risks as the H1N1 vaccine. If you're not worried about side effects from the normal flu vaccine, I wouldn't be worried about potential side effects of the H1N1 vaccine either.
http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/about/qa/flushot.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/gbs_qa.htm

I don't get normal flu shots, the flu can mutate pretty quickly so to me getting the vaccine is pretty much pointless. Since it will protect you from that strain of flu.

Also I'm not against vaccines, I'm just against vaccines that haven't been tested thoroughly. The fact that so many health professions are even against this gives me an uneasy feeling about the whole thing in general.

I've never had the flu in my entire life, generally around this time of year I get one cold and that's it. Even then that's very rare, so yeah I'm not worried. If you're someone who gets the flu a lot then getting this vaccine is probably worth the risk. I'm just glad they're not making it mandatory.

 

[manhunter098]

The flu can also cause Guillain-Barr Syndrome, which isnt actually a brain disorder but a disorder of the peripheral nervous system that can because of an incorrect immune response to an antigen in which the body starts to attack nerve tissue resulting in damage to the myelin and in some cases damage to the axions of the nerves. Damage to the myelin is typically healed quickly, while axions take longer to regenerate. About 80% of cases make a full recovery within the year, between 5 and 10% survive with severe disability, and only about 3% of people actually die from it in the United States.

You shouldn't be so concerned over the need for testing this specific flu vaccine though, you should be pushing for more testing of all flu vaccinations, though it is possible the H1N1 virus may be more likely to cause an incorrect immune response, in which case I would expect the unattenuated virus (the one that will give you the flu) to carry the same risks as the vaccine upon causing an immune reaction, but thats just speculation.

 

[Reaver197]

Also, just to let you know, the refusal of taking vaccines isn't just creating a potential health risk for yourself, but for everyone you also come in contact with.

Even if flu strains mutate, chances are, they will still be very, very similar to the earlier version of it, in which case having an outdated vaccination is better than not having one at all.

Also, what "health professionals" are against the vaccine? From what I can tell, the actual doctors and educated members of the medical field generally encourage the taking of vaccines, and often are dismayed at the public, and often ignorant, skewing of the potential risks that come from vaccines.

 

[CRASHiC]

What's interesting about the Swine Flu is that it has remained a remarkably steady virus throughout (or at least it was the last time I heard). It hasn't mutated at the same rate as the normal flu (assuming Sanja Gupta had his facts right and nothing changed from the last time he talked about it).

As a side note, rapper Ludicrous is running for president.

 

[GoldShadow]

I don't get normal flu shots, the flu can mutate pretty quickly so to me getting the vaccine is pretty much pointless. Since it will protect you from that strain of flu.

Also I'm not against vaccines, I'm just against vaccines that haven't been tested thoroughly. The fact that so many health professions are even against this gives me an uneasy feeling about the whole thing in general.

I've never had the flu in my entire life, generally around this time of year I get one cold and that's it. Even then that's very rare, so yeah I'm not worried. If you're someone who gets the flu a lot then getting this vaccine is probably worth the risk. I'm just glad they're not making it mandatory.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/virusqa.htm

This will answer all questions about flu vaccine effectiveness.

The seasonal flu shot is trivalent; it has three strains in it. These strains are based on data collected by hundreds of epidemiologists and institutes around the world, analyzed by the WHO, and the FDA and CDC. They decide which strains to use based on forecasting data that predicts which strains will be most prevalent that year/season. Most of the time, a good match increases protection among the population by 70-90%.

Also, Reaver is right: generally, the flu strains are so similar that even in a "mismatched" year when the actual strains differ from the vaccine strains, there is still a significant reduction in infection:
For example, in a study among persons 50-64 years of age during the 2003-04 season, when the vaccine strains were not optimally matched, inactivated influenza vaccine effectiveness against laboratory-confirmed influenza was 60% among persons without high-risk conditions, and 48% among those with high risk conditions, but it was 90% against laboratory-confirmed influenza hospitalization (Herrera, et al Vaccine 2006). A study in children during the same year found vaccine effectiveness of about 50% against medically diagnosed influenza and pneumonia without laboratory confirmation (Ritzwoller, Pediatrics 2005).

Reaver's also right about health risks for others. By not getting the vaccine, you're putting at risk anybody who is at higher risk (children, the elderly, and the immunocompromised). You don't even have to come into direct contact with them; you might leave germs on a surface you touch, like a doorknob or table (depending on the surface, flu virus can survive up to 48 hours outside a host).
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/infectious-disease/AN01238
http://www.slate.com/id/2091774/

 

[Aesir]

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/virusqa.htm

This will answer all questions about flu vaccine effectiveness.

The seasonal flu shot is trivalent; it has three strains in it. These strains are based on data collected by hundreds of epidemiologists and institutes around the world, analyzed by the WHO, and the FDA and CDC. They decide which strains to use based on forecasting data that predicts which strains will be most prevalent that year/season. Most of the time, a good match increases protection among the population by 70-90%.

Also, Reaver is right: generally, the flu strains are so similar that even in a "mismatched" year when the actual strains differ from the vaccine strains, there is still a significant reduction in infection:
For example, in a study among persons 50-64 years of age during the 2003-04 season, when the vaccine strains were not optimally matched, inactivated influenza vaccine effectiveness against laboratory-confirmed influenza was 60% among persons without high-risk conditions, and 48% among those with high risk conditions, but it was 90% against laboratory-confirmed influenza hospitalization (Herrera, et al Vaccine 2006). A study in children during the same year found vaccine effectiveness of about 50% against medically diagnosed influenza and pneumonia without laboratory confirmation (Ritzwoller, Pediatrics 2005).

Yeah see my opposition comes from the fact that not every vaccine is safe. Gerald Fords little mishap in the 70's should have made this obvious. Or how about the Anthrax Vaccine which turned out to be a health concern for the Military?

A vaccine should always be tested, I wouldn't care if it had the same effects as the regular flu vaccine. But the fact that this one could potentially cause GBS is enough to take a step back and look at it deeper.

Reaver's also right about health risks for others. By not getting the vaccine, you're putting at risk anybody who is at higher risk (children, the elderly, and the immunocompromised). You don't even have to come into direct contact with them; you might leave germs on a surface you touch, like a doorknob or table (depending on the surface, flu virus can survive up to 48 hours outside a host).
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/infectious-disease/AN01238
http://www.slate.com/id/2091774/

A vaccine isn't a miracle substance. It isn't the only way to prevent getting the flu. Practicing good health, and preventative medicine is actually still effective believe it or not. So the argument that I'm risking everyone else is loaded especially considering my health history.

 

[GoldShadow]

A vaccine should always be tested, I wouldn't care if it had the same effects as the regular flu vaccine. But the fact that this one could potentially cause GBS is enough to take a step back and look at it deeper.

I strongly suggest you read my links. Regular flu vaccine can also cause GBS. Like Reaver said, both vaccines are pretty much exactly the same; the only difference is the flu strain. They carry the same risks. Current vaccines have not been associated with any increase in the rate of GBS. The vaccine in '76 was a one-time deal, in regard to flu shots. Moreover:

Is the 2009 H1N1 flu shot expected to be associated with Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS)?

In 1976, an earlier type of swine flu vaccine was associated with cases of a severe paralytic illness called Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS) at a rate of approximately 1 case of GBS per 100,000 persons vaccinated. Some studies done since 1976 have shown a small risk of GBS in persons who received the seasonal influenza vaccine. This risk is estimated to be no more than 1 case of GBS per 1 million persons vaccinated. Pregnant women should tell the person giving the shots if they have ever had GBS.

http://www.cdc.gov/H1N1flu/vaccination/pregnant_qa.htm

How common is GBS, and how common is it after people are vaccinated for seasonal influenza?
GBS is rare. Each year, about 3,000 to 6,000 people in the United States develop GBS whether or not they received a vaccination – that’s 1 to 2 people out of every 100,000 people. This is referred to as the background rate.
In 1976, there was a small risk of GBS following influenza (swine flu) vaccination (approximately 1 additional case per 100,000 people who received the swine flu vaccine). That number of GBS cases was slightly higher than the background rate for GBS. Since then, numerous studies have been done to evaluate if other flu vaccines were associated with GBS. In most studies, no association was found, but two studies suggested that approximately 1 additional person out of 1 million vaccinated people may be at risk for GBS associated with the seasonal influenza vaccine. It is important to keep in mind that severe illness and possible death can be associated with influenza, and vaccination is the best way to prevent influenza infection and its complications.
What happened in 1976 with GBS and the swine flu vaccine?
Scientists first reported a suspected link between GBS and vaccinations in 1976, during a national campaign to vaccinate people against a swine flu virus. The investigation found that vaccine recipients had a higher risk for GBS than those who were not vaccinated (about 1 additional case occurred per 100,000 people vaccinated). Given this association, and the fact that the swine flu disease was limited, the vaccination program was stopped.
Since then, numerous studies have been done to evaluate if other flu vaccines were associated with GBS. In most studies, no association was found, but two studies suggested that approximately 1 additional person out of 1 million vaccinated people may be at risk for GBS associated with the seasonal influenza vaccine.
http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/gbs_qa.htm

A vaccine isn't a miracle substance. It isn't the only way to prevent getting the flu. Practicing good health, and preventative medicine is actually still effective believe it or not. So the argument that I'm risking everyone else is loaded especially considering my health history.

Practicing good health definitely helps. It is not the same as an immunization. You are far more likely to get sick without the vaccine than with it. Your health history is just that: history. Unless you can predict the future, you have no way of knowing whether or not you will get sick. Maybe you are less likely to get sick, but you are not immune.

And if you do get sick with the flu, you are putting others at risk, even if you stay at home (remember that there is an incubation period before you see symptoms, during which time you are contagious).

 

[Aesir]

I strongly suggest you read my links.

I have, you're not arguing with a PGer right now.

Regular flu vaccine can also cause GBS. Like Reaver said, both vaccines are pretty much exactly the same; the only difference is the flu strain. They carry the same risks. Current vaccines have not been associated with any increase in the rate of GBS. The vaccine in '76 was a one-time deal, in regard to flu shots

.
I'm not arguing the regular flue vaccines cause GBS. I'm arguing that this new one needs to be tested thoroughly before it's administered to the public. Obviously the regular flu vaccine doesn't cause GBS, simply looking at the numbers over the years disproves that. That wasn't my argument. My argument is the FDA pushed this new one through way to quickly without any extensive testing. To me this is more about the Government acting on fear then on rational, that's the public's job.

Moreover:

Is the 2009 H1N1 flu shot expected to be associated with Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS)?

In 1976, an earlier type of swine flu vaccine was associated with cases of a severe paralytic illness called Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS) at a rate of approximately 1 case of GBS per 100,000 persons vaccinated. Some studies done since 1976 have shown a small risk of GBS in persons who received the seasonal influenza vaccine. This risk is estimated to be no more than 1 case of GBS per 1 million persons vaccinated. Pregnant women should tell the person giving the shots if they have ever had GBS.

http://www.cdc.gov/H1N1flu/vaccination/pregnant_qa.htm

How common is GBS, and how common is it after people are vaccinated for seasonal influenza?
GBS is rare. Each year, about 3,000 to 6,000 people in the United States develop GBS whether or not they received a vaccination – that’s 1 to 2 people out of every 100,000 people. This is referred to as the background rate.
In 1976, there was a small risk of GBS following influenza (swine flu) vaccination (approximately 1 additional case per 100,000 people who received the swine flu vaccine). That number of GBS cases was slightly higher than the background rate for GBS. Since then, numerous studies have been done to evaluate if other flu vaccines were associated with GBS. In most studies, no association was found, but two studies suggested that approximately 1 additional person out of 1 million vaccinated people may be at risk for GBS associated with the seasonal influenza vaccine. It is important to keep in mind that severe illness and possible death can be associated with influenza, and vaccination is the best way to prevent influenza infection and its complications.
What happened in 1976 with GBS and the swine flu vaccine?
Scientists first reported a suspected link between GBS and vaccinations in 1976, during a national campaign to vaccinate people against a swine flu virus. The investigation found that vaccine recipients had a higher risk for GBS than those who were not vaccinated (about 1 additional case occurred per 100,000 people vaccinated). Given this association, and the fact that the swine flu disease was limited, the vaccination program was stopped.
Since then, numerous studies have been done to evaluate if other flu vaccines were associated with GBS. In most studies, no association was found, but two studies suggested that approximately 1 additional person out of 1 million vaccinated people may be at risk for GBS associated with the seasonal influenza vaccine.
http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/gbs_qa.htm

Yes I know, I'm not saying it does or doesn't I'm saying that they need to look into that further before they give it the okay for public usage. This is especially the case for medical professionals since in some states it's mandatory. What if this turns out to be another 76 incident? If you think health reform is hard to pass imagine if that happened.

Practicing good health definitely helps. It is not the same as an immunization. You are far more likely to get sick without the vaccine than with it. Your health history is just that: history. Unless you can predict the future, you have no way of knowing whether or not you will get sick. Maybe you are less likely to get sick, but you are not immune.

I obviously am far more at risk, but that doesn't really say much. Maybe if I lived in any other state I would get vaccinated every year, but my state is pretty good at keeping those instances localized.

And if you do get sick with the flu, you are putting others at risk, even if you stay at home (remember that there is an incubation period before you see symptoms, during which time you are contagious).

Until I actually get the flu I'll stick to what I've been doing. Practicing good health.

 

[Reaver197]

I found this article at New Scientist, which is 8 myths about the Swine Flu.

http://www.newscientist.com/special/swine-flu-myths-that-could-endanger-your-life

 

[manhunter098]

Aesir, what specifically are you fears about this vaccine? Do you expect it to be somehow different in its side effects than other flu vaccines?

 

[Aesir]

Aesir, what specifically are you fears about this vaccine? Do you expect it to be somehow different in its side effects than other flu vaccines?

As you can see from my posts I'm not afraid of it, my concern is this is going to turn into a 76 incident which is why I'm saying it's foolish for the FDA to approve the drug without extensive testing. I understand the Government want's to take charge of this and show it's not incompetent.

Reaver I appreciate the link, and I can't believe I'm actually disagreeing with New Scientist. Over 30% of the population was vaccinated. So that left 70% of the population "at risk" Only one person died of the flu during that pandemic. I can't believe they're actually arguing it's better to get vaccinated then to risk it, why would you take something that hasn't been properly tested? I'm sure those 500+ patients in the 70's are thinking differently.

 

[Reaver197]

Because this is a much different case than the 1976 scenario.

Also, it is tested. It's almost identical to the seasonal flu vaccines that are given out to millions of people, which has very low chances of triggering any sort of negative symptom. In addition to that, they ran tests on volunteer groups with the swine flu variant, which has proven to be very safe.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/chi-flu-vaccine-making-19-oct19,0,3212579.story

If you read the New Scientist articles (in particular, this one http://www.newscientist.com/article...le-why-take-the-risk-to-prevent-mild-flu.html), one of the possible reasons for the development of GBS in response to the vaccine shots was a contamination of the eggs used for producing the vaccine with the bacteria Campylobacter, not so much an issue of the vaccine in of itself.

In relation to 1976, the hygiene and sanitizing of meat is vastly improved today, so there is a much lesser chance that such a similar thing will occur today. Not to mention, the flu itself has a much higher reported rate of causing GBS than the vaccine. So, either way you slice it, the vaccine is clearly the better path to take.

 

[Aesir]

I've read the links, the new scientist article is basically under the assumption that it won't happen again. While I agree we've progressed greatly since the 70's, I see no real reason to jump on the wagon to get the vaccine, I'm not part of the demographic of people who are at risk so I see no reason to get it.

If it ends up escalating more I probably will because I'm a hypocrite that way. I'm not asking the government to take back their support for the vaccine, all I'm asking is for them to continue testing it. I'm not some crazy Alex Jones nut case.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2332264/h1n1_vaccine_deaths_are_h1n1_vaccine.html

I'm skeptical about the woman who claims to of contracted GBS from the new vaccine but what are some of your thoughts on it?

Edit: Scratch the "I'm not at risk" line. Turns out I am, because my moms a RT. Oh joy.

 

[RDK]

I love reading people argue on Facebook about whether or not the H1N1 vaccine is more harmful than the flu itself.

Even funnier is seeing people argue that the swine flu is no different than any other flu. "The only people who died from the swine flu were young kids and old people who were already going to die anyway!!11!".

Everything is made-up liberal propaganda nowadays, without exception. Tomorrow we'll discover the cure for cancer, and the conversation will go something like "It's not actually a cure; it's not different than any other antibiotic. The Democrats are lying to you!!1!1".

 

[Aesir]

Global warming is liberal propaganda, because all these liberal politicians want to make their climatologist friends filthy rich.

At first swine flu didn't look like a big deal, then it got progressively worse.

 

[Reaver197]

A couple of articles/blogs I found that I felt were appropriate to the topic.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2...k_u.php?utm_source=mostactive&utm_medium=link

Some of these anti-vaxxers seem to use particularly heinous tactics in dealing with people who point out the issues with their position.

 

[Aesir]

So recently I've been getting into debates about evolution with people at my school and I realized how little IDer's or closet IDer's actually know about evolution. I use to have a hard time debating this as my knowledge of Evolution is a little higher then high school level. However;

"Evolution is cleverer than you are."

Orgel's Second Rule is intended as a rejoinder to the argument by lack of imagination. In general, this rule expresses the sometimes experienced fact that "trial and error" strategies are better than centralized intelligent human planning.

Orgel's rule can also be used to counter creationist arguments in which often the hidden and non-provable presumption is suggested, that human intelligent planning is in general superior to trial and error strategies used by evolution.

The same principle has been given as an analogy to software developed in an evolutionary sense by group collaboration, as opposed to software built to a pre-ordained design that was created without reference to previous implementation. Although, the development is not claimed to be of the same random nature as is by evolutionary genetics.

Then I ran across this and realized how much of a fraud the Intelligent Design movement really is.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgel's_rule Source for anyone who's interested. Hopefully this will spark some discussion.

 

[RDK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM0oBuhTLRI&feature=player_embedded

 

[Aesir]

Darwin was a sexist and a racist.

But if we're gonna discount the origin of the species based on the moral character of the author, then what about the bible?

 

[RDK]

Exactly. Comfort is a moron.

Looking forward to a follow up on how Isaac Newton's "theory" of gravity has caused untold death and carnage in falling-related incidents.

Seriously folks, it's like saying photosynthesis has a moral position. Not liking the implications of a scientific theory doesn't make it any less true.

 

[Aesir]

I blame the Christian Right and the political correctness of; "You have to respect all view points" No you don't have to respect the dangerous ones. Sometimes I think the bible belt should just break off into it's own country.

 

[KrazyGlue]

I was thinking of making a new thread on how age should factor in to jail sentences.

Spoiler

(Recently in the news a 13 year old boy was sentenced to life in prison without possiblity of parole. His attorney argued that “To say to any child of 13 that you are only fit to die in prison is cruel”.)

Anyone interested in this debate? If so, I'll go write it up.

 

[CRASHiC]

Maybe. I'd like to see the information before I could make a claim. Its not something I've ever looked into, though it is something that interest me. Do you have any numbers on its success rate?

 

[manhunter098]

I was thinking of making a new thread on how age should factor in to jail sentences.

Spoiler

(Recently in the news a 13 year old boy was sentenced to life in prison without possiblity of parole. His attorney argued that “To say to any child of 13 that you are only fit to die in prison is cruel”.)

Anyone interested in this debate? If so, I'll go write it up.

I read in my local paper a few days ago, that in the entire nation, only 109 minors are sentenced to life terms without parole for crimes other than murder. Of those 109, 77 of them resided in Florida, and over 80% of them were black.

I love my state, our courts are so evil.

 

[Aesir]

Florida is pretty evil, they elect some of the most insane people. I think it has to do with those "i hate everything" old people they have down there.

 

[CRASHiC]

but at least they have DEBBIE SCHULZ <3 hotttt

Krazy, I think you should make the thread. I'm very interested in seeing the information you have and hearing the sides of the issue.

 

[KrazyGlue]

Krazy, I think you should make the thread. I'm very interested in seeing the information you have and hearing the sides of the issue.

Alright, I'll probably post it by the weekend.

I read in my local paper a few days ago, that in the entire nation, only 109 minors are sentenced to life terms without parole for crimes other than murder. Of those 109, 77 of them resided in Florida, and over 80% of them were black.

Yup, 77 in Florida, and 17 in Louisiana; 84% are black.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

It's an interesting idea Krazy, you should make it. Should get a little ripple of activity. Hopefully more, though.

 

[RDK]

Alright, I think I've thought of a way to get more activity in here. Would any of you be interested in helping lead the fight against anti-science and anti-intellectualism?

I'm going to make a new thread soon where we can discuss the ramifications of the above in greater detail.

 

[CRASHiC]

The best fighting against anti-intellectualism is The Web of Belief. Just hand everyone a copy of that. Its a well written short book with non-intimidating language on logical thought and how to discern true science from, as he calls it, cult science.

http://socialistica.lenin.ru/analytic/txt/q/quine_1.htm

 

[Aesir]

Alright, I think I've thought of a way to get more activity in here. Would any of you be interested in helping lead the fight against anti-science and anti-intellectualism?

I'm going to make a new thread soon where we can discuss the ramifications of the above in greater detail.

Did the GoP of smashboards spark this interest?