I wasn't trying to be condescending so much as direct. I'm trying to say that if we want to make really good progress on stage hacking, those are the things that need focus. What we can currently do is a great stepping stone, wonderful in combination with a few things we don't have and generally very promising, but not really a good toolset by itself. Subtle tone doesn't really work well on the internet either way I guess. I'm making this post mostly to clear things up on that regard; it's no good having misunderstandings of people's intent.
What is wrong with a "cave of life" anyway? I don't see anything fundamentally unfair about it; you just have to set up your kills via smart positioning and tactical interaction with the stage sometimes... just like Luigi's Mansion really. Skyworld in standard Brawl is kinda like a semi-broken aerial character version of Luigi's Mansion anyway. Wouldn't that be a good thing to preserve except working on getting rid of that semi-broken part? I think most approaches that go a direction other than this will just be losing most of what makes Skyworld a unique stage.
Spear Pillar, a few things. For one, do we really have that many different 2 platform stages? I'm not thinking about subspace stages at all, and the only other two platform stages are the two Pokemon Stadium levels, both of which transform into assorted configurations. The platforms on Spear Pillar move, and it has the zany fun Pokemon interactions. Stuff like Dialga distorting time is definitely something that keeps the stage unique (and it does have a real gameplay effect due to the influence of human reaction time and such on matches, really introduces some new and interesting tactics). I view the lower area as the problem since as it stands it just kinda adds a loop to the stage. The suggestion of removing 2/3 of the sections of the top instantly creates a rather obnoxious camping strategy that is easy to see; a lot of slow characters would have a really bad time approaching someone on the far floating platform. If that is gone too, it's not necessarily bad, but in general characters good at controlling space versus characters with weak vertical games (think of matchups like G&W vs Falco) would be really silly as the good space control character held the top part of the stage. It would also make the stage really huge on a vertical level in a way I'm not sure can be easily avoided. You either accept from the bottom vertical KO moves are Japes-level nerfed (not horrible since Japes is fine after all, but somewhat extreme) or accept the upper area having Mushroomy Kingdom level vertical kill shenanigans (really not fine). I struggle to see what the lower area itself adds to the stage; all the non-degenerate gameplay that already happens there focuses on the top so it would be a logical approach to mod it to focus on the top. I'm not saying you can't make a unique and interesting stage via other means, but I think the approach I'm looking at is best.
Norfair is so misunderstood. Running away on the ledges really just doesn't work well; the ledges are numerous but indefensible. Think of it this way. It's like normal ledgestalling except the other guy can approach you from any direction easily and has an easier time recovering if he messes up. That's the story with standard Brawl (and Balanced Brawl) at least; maybe Brawl+ changes something that somehow makes Norfair terrible. I really don't know so I can't consider it. As per the hazards, well, there are three to consider. The background lava wave is a hazard you'd just have to be braindead to get hit by unless you choose to take a big risk, and if you do, you deserve what's coming. It's a really good hazard like that, and I think the original developers did a perfect job on it. The side-walls of lava are really easy to avoid, and you do get a telegraphed warning for them (the camera zooms out). There's a lot of play in trying to bat people into them (much like the pirahna plant on PictoChat), but nothing is really unfair about it. The fire pillars are the only questionable element, and they really aren't that bad. They give good enough advanced warning; problems only arise when they come in particularly nasty patterns or at really bad times; they do hit a little too hard for the way they work. It's nothing even close to worth banning the stage over, but I can see why someone would want to tone them down a bit (not much though... they should still be scary). In general, Norfair forces the player to really think about his positioning and spatial control, and the hazards enhance that by dominating certain spaces for certain durations of time. It's a thinking man's stage, and it's also a stage that really creates a wide array of different circumstances in which a lot of characters can succeed (the really ground based characters like Diddy Kong and Ice Climbers don't do so great here, but that's why it's cp material and not starter material). I can't even begin to hide that I love the stage to death, and it baffles me that anyone would want to change it. In general though, I can only describe myself as disheartened at the way such a good stage as Norfair is so widely misunderstood; I wish people had more appreciation for the tactical depth some of these stages provide.
I really am excited over stage hacking; I just want to stress that there's more to be had than what we have now, and the real gems lie that way. I have already taken perhaps radical steps by doing things like refusing to freeze WarioWare in Balanced Brawl because WarioWare just isn't WarioWare without the games; I think with stage hacking the most important thing is that every stage is unique, and respecting that is really in line with the game's original design. I mean, consider in standard Brawl that only three stages have zero gameplay interactive elements (Battlefield, Final Destination, Temple). Further consider that most of the rest have rather large interactions. Probably half of the stages in the game move or transform, and so many stages have damaging hazards. Many stages have totally novel mechanics as well; WarioWare as an example has the novel games within the game with small prizes that may be useful in winning the bigger game (sadly ruined by the prizes being too random and too good). On just three stages you have totally unique swimming mechanics, and each of them has a different implementation. You have temporary standing water, permanent slow moving water, and permanent rushing water. All three of those are tactically nearly completely independent! I can say that in standard Brawl and Balanced Brawl my approach to the game is really fundamentally pretty different on each individual stage, and it adds so much to the game. There are 666 character-character matchups, and each stage adds as much diversity as a character so if all 42 stages were good that would be 27972 matchups which would make such a version of Brawl possibly the most inherently complex fighting game ever. Then consider that you have things like WiFi Training Room (with Sandbag) and maybe a stage or two to be salvaged out of subspace that could be as interesting as the normal stages, and the numbers can go up even more!
I just post stuff like this because I don't want to see stage hacking go in bad directions is all. Fixing what's not broken and making the stages more homogeneous would just be tragic. If we had just a few more tools, the possibilities would be just wide open, and 35ish stages would easily be made fair with the remaining stages largely being creative challenges moreso than programming challenges (I don't really know what to do about a stage like 75m; it may be that the "soul" of this stage is just fundamentally broken). Perhaps it's not political to look to the future instead of working with the present, but the limits of the present just seem like such a shame when it feels like the future is only a few steps away.
I hope this longer and less direct post did a better job of conveying my intentions. I don't mean any ill will; I would actually love to be helpful if I could do something to push things further along. So, no hard feelings?
we clearly have differing views on what should be brought out in gameplay, which is fine given that your hack is designed for casual play. i may have jumped off the handle earlier, but it was only because i felt insulted by the insinuation that we were not doing all we could. while keeping the cars on PTAD and other hitboxes is a good idea, please try to understand that editing those right now is outside of our realm of capabilities.
now, with regards to your ideas on editing stages, i wholeheartedly disagree with most of them,
but i do understand where you are coming from on them. different stage hacks for different purposes (casual and competitive) is perfectly understandable, though some of your ideas may cause more frustration than fun. for example, skyworld's cave of life (or any CoL for that matter) results in a techfest where people live for much longer than they really need to. this generally leads to drawn out matches where people are spending more time playing pinball than fighting. skyworld's platforms offer an interesting change in that they can be destroyed, but more often than not, you wind up with the bottom breaking first which means people get stage spiked. a lot. keep in mind that even casual players hate certain things about stages too. like WW for instance.
WW is a fun stage when played by people who want pure FFA chaos with 99 stocks on. even in BBrawl i don't think this is your goal. keeping the "spirit of the stage" is important to you, clearly, but even that must be overshadowed by the spirit of the game. a lot of things can be fun, but there's a reason why people tend to avoid stages that would seem "fun": sometimes theory does not maintain itself in practice. WW's games, while fun, generally kill at low percents or make the fights very one sided. if you plan on keeping them in, though, i would recommend 2 things, 1) be sure that the community agrees with your idea to keep them in, and 2) make the main stage bigger. when people get those powerups, it creates a chaotic situation on those cramped little platforms.
Speaking of cramped little platforms, we now come to Norfair. Now, you must keep in mind, Brawl was designed as a casual game. this being said, in no way were its stages intended for a competitive environment (yes, this even applies to BF and FD, though less so the former). Norfair is a new addition in the tradition of previous metroid stages before it: lava and lots of it. This wouldn't be so bad if the lava wasn't so powerful. even in vBrawl the lava was an imposing threat, though the hitstun added in B+ makes it twice as deadly. This is disappointing, as from a competitive standpoint it could be a very good CP for tethers and against ground-based characters, as you stated (i know for a fact ICs get ***** there). with KB decreased it would be a perfect stage, but as it is now, we either have over powered hazards or, if they are removed, a platform layout that is beyond campy. now, from a casual viewpoint this may not be an issue, and more power to you for deciding to keep it labeled as legit, but until we can play the stage as it should have been (less KB) its still a fairly terrible stage in either game based partly on just how well its layout lends to camping.
on the topic of casual stages, SP is a complicated matter. BBrawl can get away with leaving it unfrozen because it promotes a casual game type. B+, however, does not. i personally feel that if you must fight the stage more than your opponent (looking at you palkia) its not a good stage. Now, the lasers, physics changes, and occasional crescent blades that frequent the stage aren't bad in of themselves, either. keep in mind, though, that you still have the CoL to deal with. yes, removing the bottom portion of the stage may remove that, but i personally feel that its not doing the stage justice. we can move the top pieces anywhere. we can move the platforms anywhere. WE CAN DECIDE WHICH POKEMON CAN APPEAR. why should we be limiting ourselves to such a simple setup when there are so many possibilities to be had? to me it feels like removing the bottom is taking the lazy way out, and i don't want to do that, not when i have a canvas as varied as SP to work with.
as per your other ideas, i find them to be noble, mainly Flatzone 2. you must keep in mind that with a stage like this the hazards are only part of the problem. the other part lies in the inevitable border camping. every form of FZ2 has ridiculously close borders and can be camped easily to great effect. if you do manage to find a way to reduce KB of stage hazards, i would recommend increasing the boundaries considerably.
i am happy you too are excited about stage hacking and i look forward to seeing what you can come up with, but we are working with two very different games here and what you may see as unnecessary for BBrawl may be a blessing for Brawl+. its necessary to look to the future, but its just as important to not get ahead of yourself as well. work with the tools you have now; the rest will come.
@ chaos:
thanks. that looks slightly different from what i'm using now. i'll see if it works better.
edit: nah, didn't work. i forgot the stage starts out angled if its not frozen. oh well, i guess i have to wait on Maestro then. which reminds me, i sent him the wrong file. the spawns on that one put it bellow the target platform.
