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Q&A The Bowser Questions and Advice Thread

Эикельманн [РУС]

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Is there anything viable about Bowser's WD at all? I've been messing with it and it seems even with momentum it's just... crap. No need to WD for the most part to edgehog due to upB either.
I can see using it at mid-range when approaching to mindgame a little but... the slow...

Also, when do you Dsmash? I know it must have some uses, but damn I can't figure them out.
sorry for late reply. couldn't login for some reason.

bowser's wavedash is mediocre, but i use it a lot. i wouldn't say there's "no need for it" either. dash dance to wavedash back --> ftilt is something i like to do vs falcons. just experiment some.

also, up-b to the ledge is really good but sometimes i prefer just to wavedash off --> fastfall to the ledge. sometimes it's better than up-b. there have been times where i did up-b instead and accidentally saved my opponent, where if i had just wavedashed to the ledge --> fastfall it would have been quicker and wouldn't have put out any hitboxes.

dsmash is good for reading rolls and punishing missed techs imo. another classic use of it specifically on yoshis is as soon as you hit someone onto one of the platforms and you're on the ledge, a normal ledge jump under 100% will put you automatically onto the platform and you can instantly dsmash. perfect example here. keep watching until the end of that stock. http://youtu.be/7-t89QuUrI4?t=1m55s
 

Star Child

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I'm having a lot of trouble with the falco match-up. I'm getting rushed down and comboed to roughly 80% on most stocks. So I'm just wondering what tools Bowser has to deal with a rushdown and how to properly DI the pillaring?
 

Эикельманн [РУС]

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Uhhh I can't explain DI very well, I just kinda do it

But you should be using up-b out of shield every time they attack your shield. Chances are, their pressure won't be perfect because very few falcos are good at shield pressure. Rushdown Falco gets bopped by a defensive Bowser. Gotta be spot on with your edgeguards though.
 

E-102 Gamma

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There's DI, SDI, and ASDI.

DI is done with the directional stick and is most effective when used in a direction perpendicular to the knockback. If you're trying not to go flying off the stage and die, you press up and towards your attacker. If you're trying to get out of a combo, you press down and away.

SDI (Smash DI) is also done with the control stick and 'scoots' you around while you're in hitstun. You just smash the stick in the direction you want to SDI in while you're getting hit and your character is moved in that direction.

ASDI (Automatic Smash DI) is done with either the directional stick or the c-stick, with the latter taking priority. It's like SDI, except it doesn't require the sticks to be smashed in a direction, is half as effective, and takes place once hitstun ends.
 

Star Child

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I recall DJ saying that for survival DI you'd DI up and towards the opponent (like Gamma explained, thank you) and ASDI down and towards your opponent. So for combo DI, it'd be down and away for DI and ASDI would be the same? I'm just trying to get an idea of which direction I should be pushing the c-stick.
 

Oaty

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Can somebody help me with the DK MU?

Once I get grabbed I end up getting tons of percent tacked on. Avoiding his Bair is also a pain but Up B OoS can stop a lot of his options I feel anyway. I just need some help with the MU in general I don't really seem to understand what my options are during the neutral.
 

Star Child

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Can somebody help me with the DK MU?

Once I get grabbed I end up getting tons of percent tacked on. Avoiding his Bair is also a pain but Up B OoS can stop a lot of his options I feel anyway. I just need some help with the MU in general I don't really seem to understand what my options are during the neutral.
A good start would be watching the DJ Nintendo- Strong Bad (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVIFwd2IYZs) match to get some ideas. What seems to work well in the neutral are spaced fairs and ftilts; dj likes to waveland off the platform and fair quite a bit with varying success. As for the grabs, DKs uair is unpleasant in general and bowser being massive doesn't help. That being said, DI away during the throw and the same for the uair could help. As for edgeguarding, the downward ftilt and a traded bair are probably the best bets. I think.

Just my two cents. A more experienced bowser player may be able to shed a bit more light on the subject.
 

ChivalRuse

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DI behind DK at all times when he is comboing you (for best chance of escaping the combo). Or in general just DI where it would be hard for DK to follow up from. To avoid getting grabbed, do not do aerials while moving forward, or even in place. Only do them retreating fairs and only when pressured. Use up-b if you are panicking and are afraid of getting grabbed.

DK will be bairing you a lot, which means CC is an option. Although d-smash might outright beat a bair if it isn't spaced perfectly. D-smash has high priority and big characters like DK tend to get sucked in. Try d-smash on reaction if you can. But don't just stand there looking dumb and waiting to d-smash, or he'll just run up and grab you.

Play reactively and try to stay mobile to keep out of grabs. That's the way.
 

Эикельманн [РУС]

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Can somebody help me with the DK MU?

Once I get grabbed I end up getting tons of percent tacked on. Avoiding his Bair is also a pain but Up B OoS can stop a lot of his options I feel anyway. I just need some help with the MU in general I don't really seem to understand what my options are during the neutral.
lol wtf, why are you asking for bowser dk advice LOL
 

Wubbs

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Dear gimpy.
How can I get the klaw to grab every time?
 

Jecux

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I'm new to Melee and I know that Bowser is definitely not a character to start with but I still would like to give him a chance. What basic things should I practice first with him?
 

Эикельманн [РУС]

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I'm new to Melee and I know that Bowser is definitely not a character to start with but I still would like to give him a chance. What basic things should I practice first with him?
You need to be really good at up-b out of shield, and you need to know when to crouch cancel because it's really useful for him. Work on crouch canceling into forward-tilt, up-b, grab, and sometimes even up-tilt.

Hauska tutustua, jecux. Olen kotoisin Karjalasta btw. :bee:
 
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Jecux

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I'm pretty good with Fortress OoS in Brawl, so I have something useful to know already. Thanks for the advice!
Hauska tutustua sinuun myös! ;)
 

Star Child

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Is Yoshi's by far the best stage for bowser?
What other stages can he do well on?
I have an easier time on yoshi's simply because of the auto ledge-grab, auto-cancel jump from the ledge, and the closer blast zones allowing for lower% KOs in general. After Yoshi's it kind of becomes orientated on match-ups and personal preference. I've found success on FoD against spacies and falcon and I'm just comfortable on Battlefield. Overall, smaller stages will take advantage of Bowsers strengths like KO power and ability to get the opponent off-stage earlier in the stocks.

That, and FD is awful for Bowser the majority of the time.
 

Star Child

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So I have a tournament coming up that is using an older ruleset (from '06 I think) and I was wondering what some of bowser's better stages were back then and what good counterpicks would be, especially against spacies?
 
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yoyowoodchuckguy

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I have some questions about how to beat Marth. Whenever my brother picks him, he just runs to one end of the stage and just stands there, forcing me to approach. If I do approach, he just Fsmashes me. Generally just dashdancing around a bit before closing in with a fair works, but half the time he just reads it and hits me. Would Fortress be an effective approach?

Any advice is much appreciated.
 
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Star Child

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I have some questions about how to beat Marth. Whenever my brother picks him, he just runs to one end of the stage and just stands there, forcing me to approach. If I do approach, he just Fsmashes me. Generally just dashdancing around a bit before closing in with a fair works, but half the time he just reads it and hits me. Would Fortress be an effective approach?

Any advice is much appreciated.
So if you always approach the same way he's going to react the same way and you're gonna have a bad time. So mix it up. approaching with shield and then upB out of shield would be fine because fsmash is slow. Or pick a character with a gun and force him to approach.
 

Kalimari

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i remember watching a stream the other week and dj said that unless the sheik is frame perfect, bowser can get out of her chain grabs? how would i go about doing this? like what kind of DI.

i guess while we're on the subject, let's talk about getting out of grab situations as bowser
 

Star Child

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The DI to get out of Sheiks chain grab would be up and behind her, then wiggling out and jumping.

As for other grab scenarios, it depends on the character you're facing:

Fox:

- up-throw: DI behind him then wiggle out and jump (shouldn't be able to u-air you at any %)
- down-throw: away and tech mix-up (though the initial DI is pretty negligible because you're huge making follow-ups easy, so just tech it)

Falco:

- down-throw: same as fox, away and tech mix-up
- up-throw: behind falco to get away from most follow ups (though his grab follow ups aren't particularly strong)

Falcon:

- down-throw: down and away from falcon to reduce follow ups
- up-throw: actually not super sure... I feel as if a good falcon will combo you off it in general but I would try up and behind based off of where up-throw sends you

Marth:

- F-throw: ok so f-throw changes based off your %. <20%, it doesn't knock you down so you could DI down or down & away and potentially up-b or buffer a roll to escape (pretty sure). mid-percent, let's call it 20%-40%, DI away or down and away leads to a tipper f-smash in my experience so DI in and just take the non-tipper or whatever else they throw out. >40%, DI down and away to escape

Jiggs:

- No real follow ups after grabs

Peach:

d-throw: DI up and behind then wiggle out (you might take a nair or dash attack at worst)

Ganon:

- d-throw: I think the same as sheiks d-throw but I really don't have much experience in this match-up to really know...
- Up-throw: same deal as falcons I believe. Eikelmann might know more.

Any other character I don't really have enough match experience to know how to deal with it.
Also, these is just my experiences with Bowser and hopefully other Boozer mains can shed some light (lookin' at you DJ)
And sorry for responding to this 3 months later; this thread deserves more care than that.
 

Kalimari

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Thx for the reply . i noticed i still got uthrow upaired by fox when i got to about 110 percent, gotta start di-ing behind for fox and sheik. appreciate the post

goin to a weekly tonight see what i find out and maybe get some matches on stream
 

Yem

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What are bowsers options from the ledge? Obv shield, jump, and his awesome ledge attack. I can't seem work out much more, I can fall away, jump and Do a non Lcancelled Fair or Nair back onto the stage, I haven't discovered any options for stopping a recovering player. I need as much advice as possible.
 

gmBottles

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Does anybody have advice for stagepicks? I'd imagine I'll want to go to Yoshi's as often as I can, but what are good stages for specific MUs?
 

Kalimari

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Don't take my advice over the better Bowser players here, but I'll give you my input just to get discussion going.

I still think Yoshi's is the go-to counterpick. Most players will ban this against you, and for good reason. Bowser is FAST here. I can't think of a matchup where I wouldn't go here if I could. I've even had very good success bringing Peach here. I know DJ Nintendo says this level isn't all that good the higher you go in skill level, but I think most of us aren't there to see that.

Lately these days I like Dreamland a lot. With good DI you can survive to very high percents. I like picking this stage against captain falcon, sheik, and marth because edgeguarding them is kind of textbook, kind of gaurenteed a lot of the time. Hog ledge, if they return on stage klaw backthrow.

Battlefield is good. I find most of my stage strikes go here and I don't mind it one bit. The ceiling is nice and low-ish and bowser can still reach that top platform with upair. The ledge is interesting too, and I feel bowser does a good job edgeguarding here. Flame breath against spacies is good if you get them low or you know they're gonna dip low and recover. The might bite the lip or you know they're gonna go straight up for a free punish. platforms don't really interfere with grab sequences like they do on fountain.

Iffy on Fountain ... not a fan of the high ceiling but the close side blast zones are nice. Platforms can really screw you over in a bad position if you're not careful. being stuck on one against falcon and marth can be rough . I mean i find most people counterpick to this after I ban FD. Most falcon players dislike playing here so I like playing here against them. Be careful of the ones who make great use of stomp and edge cancels on the platforms.

Final Destination and Stadium are awful imo. There's a cool infinite on stadium against spacies+falcon in the pit of the rock transformation where if you mash grab and pummel they can't get out. but really i wouldn't recommend picking this stage in most matchups.

Spacies: stick to Yoshi's, Battlefield, Fountain. Ban FD
Falcon: Yoshi's, Battlefield, Fountain/Dreamland. Ban FD
Sheik: Yoshi's, Battlefield, Dreamland. Ban FD
Marth: Yoshi's, Dreamland, (unsure about fountain vs battlefield). Ban FD

Those matchups are my preferences ^^ but I'd love to hear others' input
 

BlueShadow.EXE

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Ok so, this might be a stupid question but, why do so many people say that Bowser completely sucks in Melee? I never really used him, as I main Yoshi. But in Brawl and 3DS, he's my main.
 

Comet7

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so i've never played against a bowser and don't really know how to play bowser myself and don't want to learn the hard way, and there aren't many resources besides a few relevant videos (and I want another character for friendlies)... What is good in neutral? I know that fortress is good, and have seen people do it into the ledge, but that presents the problem of being on the ledge. Does he have any good approaches? Fair doesn't seem particularly scary and fortress doesn't seem like it would be good for advancing but I'm not sure. When should koopa claw be used? This is one of the most confusing things to me since I have no idea what to do with it or even how to use the command grab. Thanks in advance.
 

gmBottles

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Ok so, this might be a stupid question but, why do so many people say that Bowser completely sucks in Melee? I never really used him, as I main Yoshi. But in Brawl and 3DS, he's my main.
They say he sucks because he really does. He is pretty bad in Brawl too, but in Smash 4 he's pretty good.

so i've never played against a bowser and don't really know how to play bowser myself and don't want to learn the hard way, and there aren't many resources besides a few relevant videos (and I want another character for friendlies)... What is good in neutral? I know that fortress is good, and have seen people do it into the ledge, but that presents the problem of being on the ledge. Does he have any good approaches? Fair doesn't seem particularly scary and fortress doesn't seem like it would be good for advancing but I'm not sure. When should koopa claw be used? This is one of the most confusing things to me since I have no idea what to do with it or even how to use the command grab. Thanks in advance.
Why do you need to know this if you aren't looking to learn Bowser "the hard way"? The best way to learn is to just play them. But to answer you a bit, you don't really have any good approach. Spaced fair is good to keep people away. Upb OoS is your best tool, use it well. Upb onto ledge is harder than it looks, I don't know the specifics but try some stuff out yourself.
 

Comet7

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i just wanted to know some basic bowser stuff so i'd at least have SOME knowledge if I ever faced a bowser or wanted to pick up a pocket bowser. I could figure out his basic fundamentals in the span of a few weeks or whatever amount of time it would take, but that takes time. I'd just do research if there was anything other than frame data I could look at with at least semi-easy access, but there isn't much stuff... I also don't want to lose from a lack of MU knowledge, which I know is huge as a Pichu main. Anyway thanks.
 

the muted smasher

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I mostly do small spacing adjustable here and there my non shield based gameplay to get in once I find a spot I like and know they won't rush me down is I sh, stop and look

I have ff fair can I safely space it? Would it be to deep or not hit, are they going to give up space to come in deeper or try to stuff me out?

Then I opt to ff fair/waveland for either a grab or a running/dd grab but if I'm a little close I might side-b or a little to far fire breath.

Also bowser's 2nd jump is surprisingly fast so You have the the option to try again with the chance for them to whiff an approach from Your fast escape.

And I try to carry over all my options.

Sadly I don't really fill a use for full hop which would be a decent mix up.

Also up tilt is a fast as jab so I preffer to do a landing up tilt sometimes or duck up tilt can be weird
 

gmBottles

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I understand wanting to know the MU. I wouldn't worry about running into any Bowser mains any time soon lol
But good spacing is EXTREMELY important, because otherwise you're gonna get bodied with ease. I think anybody would tell you this and you've probably already seen it, but watch DJ Nintendo's Bowser to learn some basic stuff. Also game 1 of grand finals in this tournament (Smash at the McMansion 6) features Eikelmann's Bowser which you can probably take some notes from. (When they say "There is a Bowser main here" they are talking about me :D)
 
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Kalimari

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RetroGamersGuru

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I'm pretty sure that everyone expected Bowser's role in teams would be a stock tanker (seems to be a common theme among mid and low tiers), but I'm impressed that it worked out for a while. Although, it makes sense to me that Bowser works better in teams rather than in the 1v1.
 
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