The Big MI Discussion Topic

[RedPeppers]

So does Captain Falcon :D

 

[HiddenBowser]

but he sucks and can't kill worth ****

 

[thaxceptional1]

sonic is really hard to play against, i really could care less if u disagree cause its true.

 

[RedPeppers]

I agree. He's about as annoying as Pit.

 

[dingding]

tier list's don't mean anything... i've seen sonic players that **** all top tiers

 

[lain]

And Taj ***** fox players, but Mewtwo still suxxx

 

[RedPeppers]

Ding don't you mean TIRES DONS EXITS!?

 

[okiyama]

There's a big difference between a good player and a good character.

Just because taj, gimpy, anonymous sonic players you mentioned are really good doesn't mean their characters are good. If they can make the character good by making it so that their characters start to do well then they are playing a good character.

Tiers are all about how well the characters do in match ups and weighted by how common or how high the tiers are stacked against them in a certain match up. I think that's pretty close to how Ankoku figured his mathematically based tier list, and I agree with all those conditions.

 

[Vayseth]

All you really did was list of Pika's advantages, and if I were to do that I could even make Captain Falcon look awesome.

I'm sure you could, but I believe that if we did the reverse (aka, point out Captain Falcon's weaknesses and Pikachu's weaknesses) we would undoubtedly come to the conclusion that Pikachu is a better character. Pikachu is a solid character. When I first got Brawl, I had no idea how to play smash at all and the moment I got the game I realized PT was trash and Pika was pretty good. It's not hard to figure out who's good and who's bad from just playing the game.

The thing is, Anther was able to show people that Pikachu can combo and rack damage. Anther was able to demonstrate how to beat certain characters that I'm sure other Pika mains thought were counters. As a Snake player, I find ROB fairly easy to play against (as long as it isn't OS). Yet ROB is thought of as one of Snake's hardest matchups. If people were to perhaps study my matches as I'm sure people study Anther's matches, then that perception could easily change.

I don't think that is the case at all. I think there are natural counters in this game. ICs for example is a super good character against D3. However, CO18's D3 beat up Hylian's ICs pretty good. I think it has less to do with actual character match ups, and more to do with individual player weaknesses and strengths. That and their ability to adapt their play style to take on those match ups. No one would doubt that Meta ***** D3 but I'm comfortable in that match up because I've played it a lot. Basically, individual players' comfort in a match up does not affect the match up itself. Unless a new character-specific combo or something else character-specific was discovered in the match up.

Many things aren't set in stone yet in this game. Things like matchups can be dealt with and changed over time. Weaknesses can be covered by strengths and there will be future players that will radically change perception of a character, years into the game. ICs weren't that great until Chu Dat showed everyone how to use them. Metaknight wasn't broken until Forte started showing people how to play him, so M2K picked him up and things started snowballing from there.

I think we're not talking about the same thing anymore. You originally said tiers don't matter but here you're talking about how match ups and misc things changing over time. Well... DUH. However, it is impossible to deny that it is pretty easy to see who is good and who is just plain bad in this game. There is NO, ****ING, WAY, that ANYTHING in the game will ever propel Ganondorf to the top of the tier list. NOTHING. Even if the best player at the end of Brawl's life mained Ganondorf, he would never be at the top. He is a bad character. Anyone can see that. However, it's not like a Ganondorf player beating a Metaknight player is unheard of. It's just ****ING hard.

Many people misunderstand what tiers are. It's a ranking of characters that shows who is the best in the game approximately all the way down to the approximate worst in the game. A balanced game will have SLIGHT differences between the best and the bottom tiers while an unbalanced game will have gaping differences between the two. Brawl, IMO, is a moderately balanced game in the idea that the ones up top will generally still **** every one at the bottom, but it's not unheard of that a character at the bottom will **** someone at the top. So yes, tiers mean little in this game, but in a game like Tekken 4, tiers are ****ING EVERYTHING.

Also, I must point out that a character like DK seems Godly until placed against D3. Tiers do not affect this, but match ups do. The game is "unbalanced" in the idea that that bull **** even exists in the game, but is not unbalanced because of the difference in tiers. Therefore, tiers mean little, but match ups CAN mean everything.

Basically, I'm just trying to say that general tier placement is mostly just perception at the time.

I fully agree with you except for your use of the word "perception". It's not "perception" of the character that propels them to the top, it's overall knowledge of the cast which does that. DK wasn't thought of as good right off the bat, until we realized how much of an issue killing is and how low DK could kill at. From there, we realized a lot of his moves really string together well, and he has many advantages over other characters, which propelled him higher up. It's less about overall "perception" and more about overall understanding of the characters and how they interact with other characters.

 

[Vayseth]

PT would be more viable in pools with 2-stock because you won't be playing the mandatory weak Pokémon in close games. But that's about it.

EDIT: Btw, I think PT would be infinitely better if the games were 2 stock. He has one bad, one good, and one even matchup for like every character in the game. If he could skip the bad one then he'd be sooo much better. So a ruleset can actually help PT out quite a bit :D

NOTHING. NO, THING will help PT be good without reprogramming the game. You can switch pokemon before you die you know? Do a Sheik/Zelda thing and keep refreshing your moves and mixing up the play style. I think they would be more effective if the switch out pokemon animation was faster, but I think the idea that you have to play a certain pokemon just because you died is BS. Just switch. If a character can **** Ivy and you will lose a stock at low percent, switch out and just eat the attack after changing in front of your opponent because Charazard will likely not be gimped at low %.

Rules wouldn't affect the match up enough to propel him up a tier or anything. Reprogramming him would tho =P

 

[Vayseth]

People NEVER came to that conclusion in Melee VayVay, and Pika was much better than the majority of the cast in that game IMO, and look where his final position on the tier list was ;p.

Which is a direct result of not enough overall knowledge of the character. DK was bumped up after finding out that he was a good CP for top tiers and I'm sure Pika would have been bumped too, if anyone even gave him a chance. I think melee was a different story tho. It was such a high learning curve to even PLAY the game that a new player trying to learn how to play at a competitive level AND re-invent a character at the same time was very rare and if such an amazing player existed, they did well with that character.

Aka, Anther, you're the best <3

What. WHAT. I play Sheik. You played Captain Falcon for some gods-know-why reason. You're saying PIKACHU is at a low in terms of killing power?

Pikachu only has like, i dunno, one of the (if not the) Best Vertical KO moves in the game?

Um... to both of you: Exactly. Pikachu is a good character because his biggest flaw, isn't even that big of a flaw. However, ask Anther how hard it is to pull off a kill when you're both at super high percents. Actually, ask NoJ how hard it is to pull off a kill at super high percents. People have just adapted to the match up so well that they can have a hard time killing because people can avoid their stuff with some know how. However, some moves that Snake and Meta have seem to defy the game, and hit when they never should XD

Point being, Pika is an awesome character, and therefore is high on the tier list.

 

[RedPeppers]

Lulz at Vayseth's Triple, and at Ankoku calling him VayVay.

 

[Vayseth]

Anther called me Vayvay, because we are lovers. NOT Ankoku.

 

[Zankoku]

Pokémon switch is inferior to Zelda/Sheik switch because you can't switch in the air.

 

[Shade_666]

who cares if PT sucks he is a fun character an isn't that all that matters?






Probly not

 

[alcoady]

wow, nice sig/avatar man, i need to get a new sig....altho the fat falcon is the funniest thing i've ever seen, it's time i got a new one.

possible tourney in South Haven for all you mo fo's that still play melee. more details when we get **** figured out.

 

[Kail]

Make it on a day I can go.

That is all.

 

[Zelow]

lol wow i was just saying i think sonic is better then everyone is giving him credit for i really thing he will climb the ladder and make it to atleast bottom top or top mid for sure


Hey alcoady are you bigy? as the banner my suggest? if so whats up you probably dont remember me but we met at a smash party in ann arbor i showed up with ankoku and malice.

 

[Needle of Juntah]

**** ..........

 

[Acro]

Party in Midland for Mikes 21st Friday night - lets drink heavily

 

[RedPeppers]

Anther called me Vayvay, because we are lovers. NOT Ankoku.

O.o

Sorry I didn't know......... Lol.

Misread that one.

 

[alcoady]

lol wow i was just saying i think sonic is better then everyone is giving him credit for i really thing he will climb the ladder and make it to atleast bottom top or top mid for sure


Hey alcoady are you bigy? as the banner my suggest? if so whats up you probably dont remember me but we met at a smash party in ann arbor i showed up with ankoku and malice.

yeah i remember you, you played peach/jiggs?, we need to do somethin like that again, too bad nobody over there does anything w/ melee otherwise i'd be there

 

[Zankoku]

He played Jiggs/Marth, actually.

And hey, some people here still play Melee.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sae1QewfHE8

 

[okiyama]

I like melee.

Good videos, all great playing, can't wait for the UMBs et cetera...

 

[Zelow]

yeah i remember you, you played peach/jiggs?, we need to do somethin like that again, too bad nobody over there does anything w/ melee otherwise i'd be there

I know quite a few people actually at least six off the top of my head if your interested i can talk around and see if people are interested in getting a smash party going? pm me if your interested my one buddy has gotted pretty darn good too lol.

He played Jiggs/Marth, actually.

And hey, some people here still play Melee.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sae1QewfHE8

lol my marth sucks more like just jiggs maybe a little zelda which i think is what biggy was thinking.

 

[lain]

T_T I miss melee so bad.

 

[Zelow]

T_T I miss melee so bad.

if this thing goes down you can come interested?

 

[Kail]

I like melee.

 

[okiyama]

Lain has college started yet and where are you gonna be living?

Cause I need to play you in some melee at Get your Game on...

 

[dingding]

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[Zankoku]

If Melee sucks, what the **** were you thinking buying the sequel to it?

"Man, that other game was sooo bad, I didn't like it at all, but maybe I'll really like this game with almost the exact same name, so I'll go ahead and pay up $50 to test my luck!"

 

[thaxceptional1]

i dunno this site sux but i still post on it. =/

 

[Kail]

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Dude, I totally agree.

 

[lain]

I'm at WCC right now, and I'd be up for playing melee basically whenever.

 

[Zelow]

If Melee sucks, what the **** were you thinking buying the sequel to it?

"Man, that other game was sooo bad, I didn't like it at all, but maybe I'll really like this game with almost the exact same name, so I'll go ahead and pay up $50 to test my luck!"

Lol he is probably one of thoughs people who liked it at first but then very soon realized he sucked and hated it then realized brawl is way easier and thinks he is all pro lol

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wow lol its gonna be hard for you to find respect here man i feel sorry for ya yu shouldn't have said that.

I'm at WCC right now, and I'd be up for playing melee basically whenever.

Does that mean you wont be able to show if i get some smash going?

oh and alcoady think you can see if maybe anther and scotu wanna show id like to play them again too.

Edit: i spoke with anther he said he could try and make it we just have to figure out a date.

 

[SCOTU]

make what now?

 

[Zelow]

im trying to get a smash thingy going down here in madison heights/warren and bigy said he might be able to come and anther said he would try i just need to know what date is good and if you wanna show

 

[SCOTU]

any Fri, Sat, Sun work so long as levitas can give me a ride and stuff if he's even interested. Or Anther if he's still like 10min away at Eastern.

 

[RedPeppers]

Brawl or Melee? To clarify I LOVE both games, but there'd be no point in me even trying to get a ride if it's Melee only. I suck at Melee, and however long it's been since I last played it hasn't helped.

 

[alcoady]

Brawl or Melee? To clarify I LOVE both games, but there'd be no point in me even trying to get a ride if it's Melee only. I suck at Melee, and however long it's been since I last played it hasn't helped.

ya know, you shouldn't not go just because your not that good, i've lost like the last....3 or 4 tournys i've been to and so far they've been some of the funnest. you should def come i'm sure brawl will be there too