The Bat without wings. Marth match-up discussion

[Purple]

I'm not sure if posted this already, but when it comes to matchups, be sure to implement stages and how likely the stages will actually be used.

What do i mean by this? Well in a counter picking situation, BF is like Marth's bread and butter stage to know. You guys (or one of you) said that it'd be 40:60 because of marth on BF. This is true, but only if the pit decides not to strike BF the 1st round, BF gets chosen that round, and then the pit gets salty and chooses BF AGAIN the second round. Chances are this stage will be banned during stage striking, taking away that advantage for the first round. Even if he uses BF second round, that leaves you with 1-1 between the two of you, which is 50:50 since you're now using a stage that's (more than likely) advantageous to you and you only; get what I'm saying?

Stages are important, but on top of that how the pit/marth player will (or should in most situations) strike stages also takes a part into the ratio.

 

[dskank]

silly my ***. in no way is this 60:40 and for ur information i know about marth myself having mained him b4 as well. NOT only that but i consistently play with some really amazing marths. like i said i can argue and so can any1 else for 45-55. i believee its 48:52. Sound silly? possibly. Do i like doing it, yea. Being that specific fine cuz like in anything there is no clear cut answer unlike with ganon we have OPTIONS. THAT WORK. just sayin

Edit:move on to advantages/disadvantages at neutrals and CP's FOR pit

now...DISCUSS.

kuro u get way to defensive man, uv only been alting pit for like 6 months so chill ;]

i cant see this match being even, pit has no overwhelming tactic that bothers marth, but moving on.

stages:
brainstar: skarking, camping, quick horizontal kills(both chars take advantage of this). this can be a good stage for fighting marth.
marth likes this stage as well though..

 

[Kuro~]

kuro u get way to defensive man, uv only been alting pit for like 6 months so chill ;]

i cant see this match being even, pit has no overwhelming tactic that bothers marth, but moving on.

stages:
brainstar: skarking, camping, quick horizontal kills(both chars take advantage of this). this can be a good stage for fighting marth.
marth likes this stage as well though..

i even said i understannd if its not thought to be even that's probably just my personal bias due to experience seeping in. I also know however that it really isnt as bad as 60:40. The fact that i've been using pit so little a time and have no where near as much exp as some yet STILL can handle well vs known marths and win and metaknight...says something to me. I see your view for 60:40. Jab is negligible and if hes killing u at 100 ur DI is wrong. even with tipper fsmash. unless he catches u with it at the very edge of the stage then POSSIBLY.(Ill check in time) it would kill u. dancing blade is pretty easy to sdi. Most marth's wont approach with it cuz of its punishability. They mostly use it as punishers. Fair nair and dtilt are the main spacing and pressure tools. You dont have to punish every hit but you should be taking the openings cuz they are there even with optimal spacing. Unlike mk you can reliably (assuming u use all tools available) get a gimp on the marth. Not to say it will happen every time.But it is 100x more possible than on the other 2 bad mu of wario and mk. That alone is quite a nice factor to thnk about.

oh and lenus ur opinion is valid and it stands. It WAS ridiculous but only to me cuz thats MY opinion. You guys will notice i have no problem stickin to my guns and callin ppl out


And dskank i am chill...i just debate that way tis all if i wasnt chill i would've used or but i used

 

[Akashi]

I'm bad at summarizing MUs, so I'll just throw out a few pointers.

-Marth has one of the fastest walks in the game. He can easily approach Pit's arrows simply by reacting, PS, and continuing forward. Also, if the Marth has near-perfect reaction time, he can fair (predictable) arrows. Pit forces Marth to approach, but doesn't force him into bad positions.

-Pit's WoI really f*cks Marth up in terms of his ground game. I love to stand in a neutral position against any character (meaning I like to stand right outside their zone "bubble"), but good Pits will WoI backwards, hence PUSHING Marth back and also reseting their position. It's a great gtfo move for Pit, and it's hard (if close to impossible) to punish as Marth.

-Pit's gimping game isn't that great against Marth. Yes, you can mirror a fair or something like that, but Marth won't throw out attacks until you commit yourself to an attack - ie: Gliding towards Marth, or have your back turned (bair). Most Marths, including myself, will eat a fair (if we have our second jump) and just DI up, which in turn helps us recover. If you throw out your mirror, we just DS around you. If Marth recovers low, Pit doesn't have much options; and if Pit messes up, it results in a possible gimp.

^ those are three points that have came up in this topic, but wasn't really addressed outside a few rebuttals. Imo the MU is 55:45 for Marth, MAYBE 60:40 but I lean towards the former. I agree with Kryst on that it becomes much more evenish/slightly in Pit's favor on polarized stages, like: FD, Picto, Green Greens, Norfair, etc.

 

[Krystedez]

Later, I'll give a more detailed description/analysis/write-up from my personal experience and try not be biased.

This matchup is definitely close to even to me. But generally, it's hard to justify given the current state of Pit's metagame. Still, theorycraft is very fun and can be just as useful if actually applied.

To be honest, Marth is such a straight forward character, other than his absolutely great range and frame-trapage, there is nothing that he has that sbsolutely makes this his favor; perhaps a slight advantage, but even then I'm willing to argue that. XD

Marth generally has a better argument to convince for him to be a disadvantage to us at this point though, until we can have some actual results.

 

[pitskeyblade]

Question before I contribute: when we talk about striking/banning stages, which stage list would we be actually using? Because I mean some lists allow some stages and some don't. I think we should take what stages are in our arsenal into consideration so we can better analyze our options.

 

[Kuro~]

Question before I contribute: when we talk about striking/banning stages, which stage list would we be actually using? Because I mean some lists allow some stages and some don't. I think we should take what stages are in our arsenal into consideration so we can better analyze our options.

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=97736 every tourney should follow suit.

 

[Akashi]

there is nothing that he has that sbsolutely makes this his favor; perhaps a slight advantage, but even then I'm willing to argue that. XD

To me, Marth's most distinct advantage is his ledge-game against Pit. Pit feels a lot like D3 (when hit low/can't recover high), in which Marth can harass Pit and easily chip at him. Also, Marth pressures Pit hard off the ledge, and limits his options severely. Unless there's no LGL (which there should be so that point is moot), Pit is very limited on how AND when he gets up, and Marth has an answer for everything.

In short, Marth pressures Pit better, and that's why I feel he edges out against him.

 

[clowsui]

To me, Marth's most distinct advantage is his ledge-game against Pit. Pit feels a lot like D3 (when hit low/can't recover high), in which Marth can harass Pit and easily chip at him. Also, Marth pressures Pit hard off the ledge, and limits his options severely. Unless there's no LGL (which there should be so that point is moot), Pit is very limited on how AND when he gets up, and Marth has an answer for everything.

In short, Marth pressures Pit better, and that's why I feel he edges out against him.

Tano you said the same things I did only explained them more

WHY YOU GOTTA RUIN MY HYPE TRAIN

 

[dualseeker]

Marths jab it pretty irrelevant tbh. Marth's dont really approach with jab. DB is a threat but if you read it you can SDI and punish with Dair which leads to juggle traps.

Well, Jab isn't really irrelevant. Marth's don't use it to approach, but they do use Jab to space and to possibly stop a slow move. Jab is a move that you should watch out for, though, since it can push Pit back out of Marth's uncomfortable zone (which is close to Marth).

What makes planking against Marth dangerous? His laggy Dair. The risk/reward is greatly in favour of Pit. Ledge traps assume we need to get up. If your really struggling Double tap WOI to the other ledge and do something then when Marth has less time to set up.

From what I've seen in this discussion, a lot of people have been underestimating Marth's ledge game. He's a good edge guarder, just as good as Pit (if not, better), but for different reasons. Marth has a response to almost every ledge recovery option, and can pretty much stop people from hanging on the ledge for too long. Considering that Marth can get a tipper Fsmash from people hanging on the ledge, it would be pretty dangerous to label Marth's edge game as "un-dangerous".

i even said i understannd if its not thought to be even that's probably just my personal bias due to experience seeping in. I also know however that it really isnt as bad as 60:40. The fact that i've been using pit so little a time and have no where near as much exp as some yet STILL can handle well vs known marths and win and metaknight...says something to me. I see your view for 60:40. Jab is negligible and if hes killing u at 100 ur DI is wrong. even with tipper fsmash. unless he catches u with it at the very edge of the stage then POSSIBLY.(Ill check in time) it would kill u. dancing blade is pretty easy to sdi. Most marth's wont approach with it cuz of its punishability. They mostly use it as punishers. Fair nair and dtilt are the main spacing and pressure tools. You dont have to punish every hit but you should be taking the openings cuz they are there even with optimal spacing. Unlike mk you can reliably (assuming u use all tools available) get a gimp on the marth. Not to say it will happen every time.But it is 100x more possible than on the other 2 bad mu of wario and mk. That alone is quite a nice factor to thnk about.

oh and lenus ur opinion is valid and it stands. It WAS ridiculous but only to me cuz thats MY opinion. You guys will notice i have no problem stickin to my guns and callin ppl out


And dskank i am chill...i just debate that way tis all if i wasnt chill i would've used or but i used

Again, just saying, Marth's jab should be considered when discussing any MU with him in it. It isn't a bad jab, as most people think, it's pretty useful at getting people away from Marth and allow him to reset spacing between him and his opponent. It's much like Pit's in the fact that it resets spacing, but Pit's is better in my opinion, since it causes more damage and is a bit more annoying.

Also, DB is only really punishable if Marth is using his Lower DB combo (the one where he stabs you multiple times), and if you are at a low percent. But even so, Marth's regular and upper DB combos aren't easy to punish out of SDI, while it is still possible, it isn't easy.

Also, Marth's tipper Fsmash most definitely will Kill at 100% if it is Fresh. Marth's Fsmash should be mostly fresh anyways, since it's not really used as a punisher. Marth's don't stale their Fsmash, since they know it's laggy and it should be used as a killing move. I'm just curious if people think that Marth's stale their Fsmashes to the point where it's not longer able to KO. The only way that Marth's fresh tipper Fsmash would not kill (and even then it would be really rare), would be if a really heavy character, such as Snake or Bowser, were hit by it. And Pit isn't heavy in the slightest.

Just trying to throw in moves that seem to have been underrated/not mentioned too much in the discussion =/.

To me, Marth's most distinct advantage is his ledge-game against Pit. Pit feels a lot like D3 (when hit low/can't recover high), in which Marth can harass Pit and easily chip at him. Also, Marth pressures Pit hard off the ledge, and limits his options severely. Unless there's no LGL (which there should be so that point is moot), Pit is very limited on how AND when he gets up, and Marth has an answer for everything.

In short, Marth pressures Pit better, and that's why I feel he edges out against him.

I agree with this completely. Marth does have great ways of pressuring people who are offstage. Marth can chase Pit just a little bit off the ledge. Sure, the distance isn't that great, but considering the length of his sword, it can make up for it by landing a few hits. Nair has really great range, and can out-range Fair if spaced correctly (although, it doesn't out-range Fair by too much ^^; ). And, as mentioned before, Marth's Fair is faster than Pit's; even though both are about the same length, Pit's takes a bit of time before it happens, while Marth's is pretty quick. And considering that Marth's Fair can cancel out Arrows, he can chase Pit offstage, if only a little. And I say only a little because if Marth goes too far offstage, Pit has a golden opportunity to Gimp him.

EDIT:
(sorry, I forgot to include the stage stuff ^^; )

In stages, I feel that we should Counter Pick Marth to stages such as FD or SV; any stages that are long and allow us room to camp, as I said before. In my opinion, I wouldn't take Marth to Jungle Japes, since the blast walls to the east and west are pretty short, and it doesn't take much to kill someone if you're near the edge of the stage. Also, the potential threat of Marth Dair spiking us into the water isn't too good either, so, I would advise against it.

Rainbow Cruise is a definite Counter Pick for Marth. The few footholds could mean death, as he sometimes has trouble getting from place to place in that stage (at least in the first half). Our chances to Gimp him are increased ten-fold, and it would make it easier to score a stock off him.

I would take Marth to Delfino, since he does have slight trouble in dealing with characters who can shark; but I wouldn't take him to Halberd. Since Halberd has a low ceiling, it would make it easier for him to kill us with a Utilt or Usmash.

I would take Marth to stages with few Footholds, where we can juggle Marth and potentially gimp him easier, like Rainbow cruise. I would also take him to stages that are long, so I can have more room to camp him and get away if I need a breather.

I would ban stages such as Battle Field or Brinstar, where Marth can easily get to us in a short amount of time. Since those stages are short already, Marth's range will make those stages even shorter, limiting our movement. Short stages like those will limit our opportunities to camp, and increase our chances of getting killed. And since stages like Brinstar have short ceilings, and short blastzones, it will make it easier for him to kill us their.

In my analysis, this Match Up is 40:60-45:55 in Marth's favor. Sure, Pit has a lot of moves that can hamper Marth, but these moves aren't detrimental to his gameplay, and he can overcome the obstacles that Pit sets for him. Although, Pit can rack up damage pretty quickly, and get Marth to a killing percentage if Marth isn't careful. Remember; a 40:60 rating doesn't mean this match is impossible for Pit, nor does it mean that Marth will have a cakewalk in this Match Up. It just means that Pit will have to do a little more work in reading and predicting Marth.

As people have said, though, stage selection will change the numbers in this MU, in my opinion.

 

[Kuro~]

Well, Jab isn't really irrelevant. Marth's don't use it to approach, but they do use Jab to space and to possibly stop a slow move. Jab is a move that you should watch out for, though, since it can push Pit back out of Marth's uncomfortable zone (which is close to Marth).





From what I've seen in this discussion, a lot of people have been underestimating Marth's ledge game. He's a good edge guarder, just as good as Pit (if not, better), but for different reasons. Marth has a response to almost every ledge recovery option, and can pretty much stop people from hanging on the ledge for too long. Considering that Marth can get a tipper Fsmash from people hanging on the ledge, it would be pretty dangerous to label Marth's edge game as "un-dangerous".



Again, just saying, Marth's jab should be considered when discussing any MU with him in it. It isn't a bad jab, as most people think, it's pretty useful at getting people away from Marth and allow him to reset spacing between him and his opponent. It's much like Pit's in the fact that it resets spacing, but Pit's is better in my opinion, since it causes more damage and is a bit more annoying.

Also, DB is only really punishable if Marth is using his Lower DB combo (the one where he stabs you multiple times), and if you are at a low percent. But even so, Marth's regular and upper DB combos aren't easy to punish out of SDI, while it is still possible, it isn't easy.

Just trying to throw in moves that seem to have been underrated/not mentioned too much in the discussion =/.



I agree with this completely. Marth does have great ways of pressuring people who are offstage. Marth can chase Pit just a little bit off the ledge. Sure, the distance isn't that great, but considering the length of his sword, it can make up for it by landing a few hits. Nair has really great range, and can out-range Fair if spaced correctly (although, it doesn't out-range Fair by too much ^^. And, as mentioned before, Marth's Fair is faster than Pit's; even though both are about the same length, Pit's takes a bit of time before it happens, while Marth's is pretty quick. And considering that Marth's Fair can cancel out Arrows, he can chase Pit offstage, if only a little. And I say only a little because if Marth goes too far offstage, Pit has a golden opportunity to Gimp him.

No jab isnt irrelevant but it certainly isnt a safe gdfo out move due to its lag. But ya i still use marth a bit and jab can come in handy sometimes. And not really once u make it a habit to recognize DB and know how to sdi well its not that hard to sdi db especially if they slow it down just a tad but you shouldnt rely on that. But its a great thing to know how to do. His edge game definitely is NOT "un-dangerous" like u said. Its quite fatal indeed i agree. But there are holes and pit can just reset the whole situation pretty easy. And ya u have to watch ur own spacing cuz he can land tipper fsmash on ledge if u make a wrong move.Pit's jab is def better.

 

[Lenus Altair]

And not really once u make it a habit to recognize DB and know how to sdi well its not that hard to sdi db

Several people have mentioned the SDI-ability of DB, but Ive heard the opposite as well:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12064175&postcount=10360

Top of page:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=287382&highlight=SDI+Dancing+blade&page=692

 

[PEACE7]

I think its 50-50 or 45-55 Marth.

 

[Damix91]

What i meant with jab being irrelevant is if you get in Marth's face in the scenario i explained earlier, Jab doesn't knock you far enough away so that he's out of your reach. He won't be doing Jab2 because of the frames in between and you have Marth on the back foot. Does he DB at close range where he can more easily be punished. Does he DS and risk it being shielded, which then leads to Aerial juggle, Edgeguard attempt or KO. Grab, Shield or Run are probably his best options.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Yes a fresh F Smash kills 120ish. A number of Marths tippers kill us just as early if not earlier. Our d tilt is nice, but Marth has longer options in his own D-tilt I believe, besides him just SH Fair/Nairing us on the ground.



52:48 just sounds silly. It's like the Pika boards. Either there is some kinda advantage or not. Saying a number like that is arbitrary in that you are suggest there might possibly be an advantage but the difference you suggest would only be recognizable by a computer. Whats the difference between a 52:48 match up and a 53:47?

I think Marth mains would be more inclined to agree with me, if not suggest a 65:35 (which I disagree with, as I don't see Marth as a counter but at a distinct advantage). So far we've just had a bunch of Pit mains talk about it minus Maharba who does admittedly have knowledge of Marth as your prior main yes? I'm gonna go invite some Marths, and I doubt many if any will suggest a neutral matchup.

Btw I dont say any of this with malice, only as my point view which I feel is realistic.

im gone for a few days packing to move to texas and all this argueing goes down yet somehow i manage to see some great theory craft develop during these arguements as i read them. i wnat to say thank you for acknowledging my marth sir (and i acknowledge yours too) but hes not my ex-main,
he is my co-main. i main him and pit equal now. also like ive referanced Cali's got marths to play against so i find it easier for me too see something coming as i play marths. if you don't want to be as specific as 52:48 55:45 is acceptable by me but let me tell a couple reasons why it is not normally 60:40. i didn't read all of these so if this is already menttioned sry as im rushed to move by saturday.

on stages like battle field, yoshis brawl, pokemon stadium, marth can have the match up 60:40 in his favor (i will note a stipulation on battle field further in) as pit's ledge game is as limited as you fellow marth's claim it to be. this is due to the fact that A) pit cannot go around 2/3 of these stages, and B) because marth's all know how to work battlefied where-as pits who misunderstand the stage cannot compete with the raw stage knowledge. however on stages like battlefield (this is the stipulation. at high levels of play where both know the match up pit can be played at the following level), Final Destination, Smashville, pit can play at a level of 45:55-50:50 against marth based on his ledge plank game. as we all know the ledge grab limit only applies if you go to timeout. however, due to our ability to mix up going under these stages, jumping away and bouncing arrow towards them and regrabbing the ledge, pivot arrow as you land on stage, rising uair or nair landing, jumping on stage with WOI to give you wing refreshed mobility to get back on stage, and our disjointed get up attacks as well as ledge ART (which can be done consistent with practice) pit's ledge game can keep up against marth here. at stages like halberd and delphino, it can only be 50:50. lets take halberd for example with a sharking technique i rarely see used where you hard core sharke camp by shooting arrows through the back/bottom of the stage and mixing it up with aerials and landing into grab, the stage gives pit and his hard core planking arsenal to stall until he can do the one thing that helps pit space marth on any stage, (the reason for the number differance is litterally room to run) pit's on the ground pivot arrow game, when used properly, can shut down some of marth's options and usually force a punishable reaction or they will patiently wait to shield the arrow which you should almost constantly change when in step and in charge time you draw your arrow. eventually arrows will hit and you just keep running across stage into pivot arrow. if they do not use Dolphin Slash as the arrow hits them or they do not shield or shield a bit it combos into a dash grab or DAC grab if you space it just outside the range of there dtilt. antoher thing pit has going for him in this mu is his stage play with WOI.

If you time it correctly, pit's WOI is the equivilent of hitting a perfect shield in street fighter 3 and you can use that to A)if it cancells a hit you can do dtilt, or mayb a stutter or sliding smash, and the best thing is you can combo it into grab. now as pit honestly juggling marth is not to challenging. between upward arrow, them DI-ing just out of our u-air so as to be hit by another one (or if you rfeeling lucky go for a bair). however what makes this awesome is even if you don't block the move, the wind will have pushed him to far away (ALMOST everytime) to hit us and if you buffer a fast falled fair to punish marth's move lag it is a great mix up between that and wingdashing. also i forgot to mention (and oh crap i didn't update in the CG thread either. ill do that next) pit can f-throw>ss fsmash at the beginning for 30% fresh (which i find funny as technically it is more dangerous damage wise to get grabbed early on by pit in this match as marth can only get a guarenteed 24% lololol).

anyways that is my jist on it. gotta keep packing now. ill try not to stay off for too long guys! and please stop aruging, somethings are not wirth arguing,. whether it is 48:52 or 45:55 on the pit boards, marth boards can post it as they want and i think it should be noted that in both numeric cases we pits agree marth has an advantage, the only problem is that we cannot decide if it is just a little or it is meh.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

so are we done with this discussion? if so kuro you should start a new one.

 

[Kuro~]

so are we done with this discussion? if so kuro you should start a new one.

ya just list Top 3 neutrals to take him to in order of greatest to least and follow that with Best CP's

ill start the next discussion and write the summary of this one this week.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

fd and smashville. if it is legal as a starter lylat. all the other common neutrals are in marth's favor hard as we can't go under them or he has the advantage.

best cps are halberd, delphino, fd, rainbow cruise, and possibly frigate but as i don't ever really get/need/want to play marth's there idk. i put them in order of what i think is best to worst.

 

[SAX]

Trust me, DB is SDIable. Kuro and I play a lot together. I mean I use pikachu and mk for main, but whenever I use DB in friendlies and I'm using marth, he sdi's out of it pretty darn consistently(like 70% he'll get out.) kuros sdi is really top of the line, prolly cause he practiced it like a madman, but if you practice sdiing it the correct way it should be worth it for the mu.
Example, he has sdied the DB then jumped and daired me.

 

[Shaya]

Do the second hit of dancing blade upwards and it will negate about 95% of attempts to SDI out.

 

[Abel1994]

Marth has to be my worst MU after G&W (seriously you dont have to be good with him and you will still own me...) After that its Lucas.....

 

[Xcallion]

Marth has to be my worst MU after G&W (seriously you dont have to be good with him and you will still own me...) After that its Lucas.....

I have a good amout of experience with the lucas MU. Would you like me to post some vids of that?

 

[Abel1994]

I have a good amout of experience with the lucas MU. Would you like me to post some vids of that?

hell yesh!!!!

 

[Xcallion]

this is the only moderately good one i have up atm. I'll ask my friend to play as lucas some more next time i see him. A thing or two to keep in mind: most lucas users will use nair a lot more than this, WoI can stop an incoming pkthunder if used at the right time and make sure to use AR/Mirror Sheild more than you normally would so you can scare him into not using pk fire so much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg7mzUoWn2M

Why are we having this discussion in the marth MU thread? If you have anything more to say on this, then bring it to the social or Q/A thread.

 

[Purple]

So we're done here aren't we? :X Going to lock of that's the case and you guys got all the info

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

lock this thread good sir

 

[Abel1994]

So when I fight Marth I should go near him so I wouldn't get tip?