Q&A The Barracks - Robin Q&A Thread [ASK GAMEPLAY QUESTIONS HERE]

[Funkermonster]

Does Robin have any possible strings or followups besides from Arcthunder and Arcfire? I've been told Dtrow allows for followups, but I can't find any.

 

[The_Cardinal]

Does Robin have any possible strings or followups besides from Arcthunder and Arcfire? I've been told Dtrow allows for followups, but I can't find any.

Dthrow is usually followed up by Uair (levin or bronze) but its not a true combo in the strictest sense of the term. Sometimes you have to bait the double jump or air dodge for it to work. At low percents, utilt leads into itself and falling levin uair goes into utilt. Overall however, Robin doesn't really have many combos outside of Arcthunder and Arcfire strings since she's more about setups anyways.

 

[Laggalot101]

I don't think this is really a combo, but I find myself landing down-tilt -> dash attack occasionally. Maybe my opponents are just not expecting it, and maybe/probably input lag (This is based on For Glory experience, pretty sure that always has some degree of input lag, even if only minor) has something to do with this, but maybe it's something to look at? Maybe replace the dash attack with something else, say a grab? I'm not very confident with advanced terms and techs yet, but if a regular grab wouldn't be good enough, then a roll-canceled grab (which basically extends its range, right?) could perhaps be used?

Anyone?

 

[slimjim]

I don't think this is really a combo, but I find myself landing down-tilt -> dash attack occasionally. Maybe my opponents are just not expecting it, and maybe/probably input lag (This is based on For Glory experience, pretty sure that always has some degree of input lag, even if only minor) has something to do with this, but maybe it's something to look at? Maybe replace the dash attack with something else, say a grab? I'm not very confident with advanced terms and techs yet, but if a regular grab wouldn't be good enough, then a roll-canceled grab (which basically extends its range, right?) could perhaps be used?

Anyone?

That's certainly a usable option select out of down-tilt, but is probably only useful once or twice a match. Anything more consistent than that is going to be mostly input lag or a mess-up of the opponent. I would say doing a RC-grab would be a better option at lower percents because the dash attack is so heavily punishable on block. I bring up on-block punishability because most people have the habit of shielding a lot against Robin due to our projectile shenanigans being so strong, so that helps for grab mixups. Another option out of down-tilt I use to regain stage control is down-tilt x1 or 2, then roll behind and down-tilt again. In theory it's not supposed to work, but we have brawl metaknight and diddy-esque down-tilt frame data so it's below the average human's reaction time threshold and thusly does work. Definitely not your go-to option though.

On a different note:

I wish Robin had a good OoS option, ANY good option.
1) Up-B? NOPE!
2) JC'd Up-smash? NOPE!
3) Grab? Usable, but too poor of range if they have good spacing. Does not cover behind shield.
4) Aerials? NOPE, go over most character's heads during short hop. Not to mention our jump animation is so ungodly slow that it's a good 20 frames before we can get anything out in the air. Retreating Nair is at least acceptable, though we lose space every time. Does not cover behind shield.

I tend to just drop shield and fire jab as an attempt to punish. Comes out on frame 12 (after shield stun ends, if applicable) I believe?
7 to drop shield, 1 unactionable, jab hits on 4. That's actually not bad, but it's not stellar, since it doesn't hit behind you. If your opponent lands behind your shield, probably best to just roll away. *Sigh*

 

[Centicerise]

Is there ever a situation where it's advisable to use the wind jab? I find that enemies simply escape from it too easily, so I've been in the habit of only using fire jab or jabbing twice and trying to follow up with something else if I'm out of fire uses.

 

[slimjim]

Is there ever a situation where it's advisable to use the wind jab? I find that enemies simply escape from it too easily, so I've been in the habit of only using fire jab or jabbing twice and trying to follow up with something else if I'm out of fire uses.

In order of how often these circumstances in which you would want to wind jab occur:

1) You are waiting for fire tome to respawn.
2) Your opponent is a fatty.
3) Your opponent is RIGHT on top of you when you start jab1.
4) Your opponent happens to spot dodge jab1, then spot dodge jab2.

In all circumstances, have the wind jab last for as little time as possible.

 

[Funkermonster]

Am I the only one who's got trouble fighting other projectile characters like Samus? Fought one just a while ago and I got wrecked, her distanced projectiles seem to come out a lot while I have to charge mine up to have any relevant effect and I couldn't do anything.

 

[AlienWarhead]

I think I need help with Robin, played and lost 10 rounds with a guy who was good with a lot characters even Robin. It felt like almost everything I did was countered, dodged, or beat out. I tried to sidestep and attack, but I usually wasn't fast enough even when the other guy picked Robin, he used Robin way better than me. People say yomi and predict what your opponent what you going to do, but that's easier said then done. Also roll punishing never works for and I just feel slow playing, like I press a button and I get hit before my action comes out. One more thing a lot of times when the other guy was on the ground and I tried to air attack him, he would shield and grab or attack, should I never air attack a grounded opponent again?

 

[The_Cardinal]

One more thing a lot of times when the other guy was on the ground and I tried to air attack him, he would shield and grab or attack, should I never air attack a grounded opponent again?

Were you spacing your aerials to the point where you are attacking from max distance or close to it? Naturally, the farther you space your aerials, the harder it is for your opponent to punish, although it is also a character match up thing.

The key, however, is to mix things up. If you think that your opponent is going to preemptively put up their shield in response to your constant use of aerials, you can do what is a a common tactic in all fighting games known as an empty jump (aka doing nothing after a jump) and just grab. Furthermore, you play Robin. Robin has nosferatu, which is a command grab you can do in the AIR. So what a lot of Robins do is use an aerial nosferatu after a jump if they think their opponents will block. It's a nifty mix-up that can further tip the scales in your favor.

 

[AlienWarhead]

Were you spacing your aerials to the point where you are attacking from max distance or close to it? Naturally, the farther you space your aerials, the harder it is for your opponent to punish, although it is also a character match up thing.

The key, however, is to mix things up. If you think that your opponent is going to preemptively put up their shield in response to your constant use of aerials, you can do what is a a common tactic in all fighting games known as an empty jump (aka doing nothing after a jump) and just grab. Furthermore, you play Robin. Robin has nosferatu, which is a command grab you can do in the AIR. So what a lot of Robins do is use an aerial nosferatu after a jump if they think their opponents will block. It's a nifty mix-up that can further tip the scales in your favor.

I don't space my aerials because I suck at aerials I barely hit and I don't know other Robin players do it. I think I got air nosferatu to work once, but I don't it work again, I think people would just hit me first like when I try to air levin and I get hit before the input registers or the animation comes out. Also sometimes the smash input won't work and I get bronze sword instead even though I have Levin sword. When you say empty jump are you saying I should jump at a opponent, hope they shield, press down to fast fall, and grab them when I hit the ground?

 

[The_Cardinal]

I don't space my aerials because I suck at aerials I barely hit and I don't know other Robin players do it. I think I got air nosferatu to work once, but I don't it work again, I think people would just hit me first like when I try to air levin and I get hit before the input registers or the animation comes out. Also sometimes the smash input won't work and I get bronze sword instead even though I have Levin sword. When you say empty jump are you saying I should jump at a opponent, hope they shield, press down to fast fall, and grab them when I hit the ground?

That's one way to empty jump. You can also just jump in place, jump forward than weave back or vice versa to bait something, etc. Furthermore, you don't always have to attack or even grab. Often times being patient and reacting to your opponents is the way to go (even when jumping towards the opponent), especially since Robin's approaches are not the best. Robin is a more defensive character that prefers to force the approach anyways. Again, just mix up what you're doing.

Another question is, when you do aerials on a grounded opponent, are you doing them while falling? Because Robin will almost always lag that way. Conversely, many of her aerials have considerably less lag if you do them while rising out of a short or full hop.

Final question: what do you mean by smash input? IF you're using the c-stick to smash than you still have to let the control stick go to neutral in order to use the Levin sword.

 

[AlienWarhead]

I guess I'm doing aerials while falling or jumping at my grounded opponent, I never got the hang of hopping. I forgot to say I'm a 3DS player and by smash input I meant tapping the circle pad hard in one direction which doesn't always use Levin sword despite me having, it always work in the training mode before a For Glory match, but not always in match.

 

[timetotipthescales]

Um, I don't remember which three aerials it was, but I remember Supreme Dragon Raziek saying something about three aerials having only 4 frames of landing lag when autocanceled.

How do you perform an autocancel, and which three aerials is it?

 

[Raziek]

Um, I don't remember which three aerials it was, but I remember Supreme Dragon Raziek saying something about three aerials having only 4 frames of landing lag when autocanceled.

How do you perform an autocancel, and which three aerials is it?

Ooh, another new title.

To auto-cancel a move, simply land at a specific point in the animation. For Fair, Bair, Nair and Uair, all you have to do is short-hop, aerial immediately and DONT fast fall.

For Dair, you have to full-hop and not fast fall.

 

[timetotipthescales]

Ooh, another new title.

To auto-cancel a move, simply land at a specific point in the animation. For Fair, Bair, Nair and Uair, all you have to do is short-hop, aerial immediately and DONT fast fall.

For Dair, you have to full-hop and not fast fall.

And they said that Smash 4 didn't have any "near lagless" aerials. Ha!

 

[Funkermonster]

Advice against other projectile chars like ? Her projectiles seem to beat out mine (or at least her missiles), and it feels like I'm practically forced to approach in this matchup and it does not feel easy approaching her at all.

If it helps to answer my question better, I've got a quick video here of me getting 2-stocked/bodied by one on For Glory, and I didn't do much to her. Pretty much goes the same way with every other Samus I face: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y4o1AKmnJ0&index=1&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ

And I know this is a john, but can I say that I reaaally dislike the Lylat Cruise Omega stage?

 

[Raziek]

1) You never charged your Arcthunder all the way up to Thoron. You have the time and room to do that if you had backed up. Thoron shoots straight through the missiles that otherwise clank with Elthunder/Arcthunder.
2) You very clearly got frustrated and just started running into Charge Shots that simply shouldn't have hit you.
3) Your ledge game needed to be better. Samus rolled past you free several time when she should've been grabbed for it.
4) No johns on Lylat. Literally all you had to do was hold towards the ledge and you'd have snapped.
5) Off-stage game needed to be better as well. She usually had charge shot, so that makes it harder, but Nair gimps Samus crazy hard.

 

[Funkermonster]

4) No johns on Lylat.

 

[M-Z]

Advice against other projectile chars like ? Her projectiles seem to beat out mine (or at least her missiles), and it feels like I'm practically forced to approach in this matchup and it does not feel easy approaching her at all.

If it helps to answer my question better, I've got a quick video here of me getting 2-stocked/bodied by one on For Glory, and I didn't do much to her. Pretty much goes the same way with every other Samus I face: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y4o1AKmnJ0&index=1&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ

And I know this is a john, but can I say that I reaaally dislike the Lylat Cruise Omega stage?

I wanted to ask this as well, that samus in the video was good but i've been going up against some much better ones lately and i'm having a hard time countering with robin The constant missiles and charge shots make it so hard to move around or even charge up thoron

 

[Raziek]

I.... I hate to break it to you guys, but that Samus was NOT good.

That Samus was bad. Extremely basic.

 

[Funkermonster]

I.... I hate to break it to you guys, but that Samus was NOT good.

That Samus was bad. Extremely basic.

It's alright, its already been broken to me. I could already tell that he wasn't good, even though I was getting my ass beaten. I wanted to switch and rematch him to get revenge, but the moment I lost the game he already left. I hate it when people only win once and already leave the game.... But since I'm a terrible Robin and have never really done the Robin/Samus MU before, I didn't know what to do and ended up getting crushed

At the very least though, I think I may have done sliiiiiightly better here. Lil advice?:
Another Robin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXAf3jtFZCE&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ&index=19
Dedede (This guy wasn't good either though): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ao2iL2RY3Q&index=4&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ
Ike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z00SnTeheao&index=18&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ

I know there's already a video thread for this stuff, but I couldn't help it since no one's been in there for like 8 days now (not counting myself) and I feel hit a plateau where I can't go any further. And if I got 2-stocked someone as basic as that Samus, I know I'm off to a bad start as a Robin player

 

[M-Z]

@ Funkermonster you were playing much better than in that samus video but you should work on your air game. Try mixing short hops with nair or fair and use uair more often when your enemy is in the air, its robins best move imo

 

[Raziek]

Robin video:

0:12 - You rolled away and gave up a free punish. Dash attack or dash-grab.
0:18 - Shooting Thoron was ok here, but I would have also run forward to take up the space you earned with jab. Keep the pressure on.
0:23 - She was too close for Arcfire to be safe, and you got punished for it. If you were going to Arcfire there, should've short-hopped backwards.
0:43 - Be careful about double-jumping immediately to try to get back to the stage. Low-level common mistake, it's a very common way to get gimped. If she had been a better player she could've naired you 2 or 3 times and you'd have lost that stock.
0:50 - You should know better than to let your shield down when Arcthunder hits it like that.
1:00 - Standing back-turned made your Bair too obvious. Needed to control the space better, probably with threatening Uair.
1:12 - See my comment at 0:43.
1:18 - Bad punish attempt. Turn around and dash attack or dash-grab.
1:25 - Much better punish! Job well done on recognizing the chance to F-Smash instead of just shield-grabbing.
2:20 - Should've been a free shield-grab.
2:28 - Pivot and D-Smash, you died for that error.
2:36 - Missed punish.
2:43 - Your close-range game is much too passive and you rely too much on D-Smash. Try getting used to jabbing things a lot more, Fire Jab is an excellent punish tool.
2:53 - See 0:43
2:56 - Follow F-throw to apply pressure with Nair or Fair, she double-jumped back in immediately which could have been punished.
3:10 - Get used to going off-stage instead of just standing around charging. She's been going low, so you could be getting Nair gimps or Elwind spikes.
3:14 - Nosferatu? You're at 22. Bad move choice.
3:40 - This entire sequence was sloppy.
3:52 - She lost ledge invincibility after Uair, she should have gotten D-Smashed to close it out.
4:10 - You're very lucky she didn't just Uair you there.

I might get to the other videos later, but there's a bunch of stuff to work on for you.

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys a few questions on my part as I recently picked up Robin. What are the moment's where I should be using Elfire? Is there a specific distance from my opponent where I should avoid to use it entirely? How about against shielded opponents?

 

[The_Cardinal]

Hey guys a few questions on my part as I recently picked up Robin. What are the moment's where I should be using Elfire? Is there a specific distance from my opponent where I should avoid to use it entirely? How about against shielded opponents?

Arcfire is pretty versatile and the main time when you should almost never use it is when your opponent is near you since the blind spot is somewhere in front of Robin and the move is laggy (although if your opponent runs into it and is right in front of your face it leads to a free usmash).

You can zone with it to stop/punish an approach or force a jump, launch it to punish a landing, or use it as an edgeguard since the explosion hitbox at the end hits people on the ledge. If you're offstage and recovering, you can shoot arcfire at an edgeguarding opponent to protect your recovery. The move is also good for pressuring since if an opponent is blocking it, it gives you enough time to do a attack/grab mix-up. This spell is also crucial for both Robin's combo and trap game, especially when used when Robin is under a platform. For more information on this aspect of arcfire please see Raziek's Robin stage guide that has been conveniently stickied in the Robin forums. It even comes with very entertaining, informative visuals.

There's probably more I didn't cover so if any other tacticians want chime in, that would be great. Hope this helps.

Edit: Also, great job @ Locuan reorganizing parts of the Marth threads. It's all nice, neat, and accessible.

 

[False Sense]

Hey guys a few questions on my part as I recently picked up Robin. What are the moment's where I should be using Elfire? Is there a specific distance from my opponent where I should avoid to use it entirely? How about against shielded opponents?

First of all, Arcfire (mind you, that's Arcfire, not Elfire) is a really good move with a wide variety of applications. At its core, the move temporarily creates a space on the stage that can hurt and potentially trap opponents that touch it. In a game like Smash, the level of control a move like Arcfire can grant is incredibly potent.

Generally, the basic premise for using Arcfire is to punish your opponent for being at a certain location when you use it. Obviously, there's a ton of ways you can go about doing it; you can use it while retreating to punish an approaching foe, you can use it to edgeguard, or you can use it to simply limit the opponent's options and increase your own. The latter in particular is a great tactic for pressuring foes and forcing them to approach in less-than-ideal ways, giving you the chance to strike with a powerful attack. Of course, if you actually hit an opponent with Arcfire, they'll usually be trapped in it until the move ends, leaving them defenseless against a Levin Sword aerial.

Unfortunately, the move does have a noticeable amount of start-up and ending lag, as well as a blind spot in between Robin, the initial fireball, and the final pillar of flames, so just mindlessly throwing the move out there will get you punished. I can't say that there's a specific distance that you shouldn't use Arcfire, though; that depends on the size and speed of your opponent. You'll just have to learn what a safe distance is to use Arcfire for each character you fight.

As for shielding opponents, if you hit them with Arcfire, they'll be forced to stay in place until the flames dissipate, giving you a great opportunity to grab them or even hit them with Nosferatu. At the very least, you'll wear down their shield a bit.

 

[Dark Lady]

Up tilt is garbage.

The hitbox at max range does not start until the blade goes diagonally up, so any character Mario's height and shorter, it will whiff when they are grounded. There is also some funky hitbox in the middle of the blade, however, that will hit those Mario's height and shorter.

I hate it when animations don't match actual hitboxes. :I

 

[Raziek]

Up-tilt is not really garbage, it just has a very specific situation that you want to use it in. It's great for that situation, and not a lot else.

It's certainly no 64-Kirby U-tilt.

 

[Locuan]

Up-tilt is not really garbage, it just has a very specific situation that you want to use it in. It's great for that situation, and not a lot else.

It's certainly no 64-Kirby U-tilt.

I believe falling bronze sword U-air to U-tilt strings and/or combos at low-ish percents correct? Much like Marth/Lucina's. I believe I saw Nairo performing it in this video.

 

[Lavani]

It's not really animation not matching hitbox so much as Robin just holding her sword at an angle. The first active frame looks something like this:

The lower half of the sword and Robin's hand can hit characters like Mario, but since she holds it angled up while swinging the upper half whiffs short characters.

 

[The_Cardinal]

I believe falling bronze sword U-air to U-tilt strings and/or combos at low-ish percents correct? Much like Marth/Lucina's. I believe I saw Nairo performing it in this video.

Nairo technically used the levin version of that combo at 10:00, which is even better. So yeah, just like Marth and Lucina. U-tilt also randomly gives you good juggling situations.

 

[Tattles]

Uptilt isn't bad, but it's far from versatile. SH uair-utilt seems like the only real application.

 

[Funkermonster]

Robin video:

0:12 - You rolled away and gave up a free punish. Dash attack or dash-grab.
0:18 - Shooting Thoron was ok here, but I would have also run forward to take up the space you earned with jab. Keep the pressure on.
0:23 - She was too close for Arcfire to be safe, and you got punished for it. If you were going to Arcfire there, should've short-hopped backwards.
0:43 - Be careful about double-jumping immediately to try to get back to the stage. Low-level common mistake, it's a very common way to get gimped. If she had been a better player she could've naired you 2 or 3 times and you'd have lost that stock.
0:50 - You should know better than to let your shield down when Arcthunder hits it like that.
1:00 - Standing back-turned made your Bair too obvious. Needed to control the space better, probably with threatening Uair.
1:12 - See my comment at 0:43.
1:18 - Bad punish attempt. Turn around and dash attack or dash-grab.
1:25 - Much better punish! Job well done on recognizing the chance to F-Smash instead of just shield-grabbing.
2:20 - Should've been a free shield-grab.
2:28 - Pivot and D-Smash, you died for that error.
2:36 - Missed punish.
2:43 - Your close-range game is much too passive and you rely too much on D-Smash. Try getting used to jabbing things a lot more, Fire Jab is an excellent punish tool.
2:53 - See 0:43
2:56 - Follow F-throw to apply pressure with Nair or Fair, she double-jumped back in immediately which could have been punished.
3:10 - Get used to going off-stage instead of just standing around charging. She's been going low, so you could be getting Nair gimps or Elwind spikes.
3:14 - Nosferatu? You're at 22. Bad move choice.
3:40 - This entire sequence was sloppy.
3:52 - She lost ledge invincibility after Uair, she should have gotten D-Smashed to close it out.
4:10 - You're very lucky she didn't just Uair you there.

I might get to the other videos later, but there's a bunch of stuff to work on for you.

1:00... Making my bair telegraphed like that is something that hasn't crossed my mind at all, thanks for pointing that out.

1:25 you're implying I shield grab too much when I could be doing better things? Just making sure, that's something Crossing my mind some times.

2:43 About the Dsmashing, this actually is the 2nd time I played her and from the previous match I noticed she had a tendency to roll right behind me and grab me. In this rematch, I was expecting her to do it again and I was trying to catch her rolls with the dsmashes, but either guessed wrong or had bad timing. In the D3 video, I was noticeably more successful at punishing his rolls than I was here. I won't deny my close range is still lacking overall though, will try to fire jab and dtilt more.

2:56 Didn't know I could do that with Fthrow, thanks again!

3:10 had no idea Nair is a gimp tool, and I'll try Elwin's spiking right away. Glad you told me that!

3:52 At the time of this match, I was unaware that ledge regrabs have no invincibility and thought she was still invulnerable, but I eventually found out after visiting the Lil Mac boards so I know it now. Still, great reminder and I'll keep it in mind next time.

I've got no johns, questions, or answers to the rest though. All that other stuff is most definitely true, and one again, thanks for lettin me know all this.

 

[Dark Lady]

I meant garbage as in it doesn't match the animation.

**Edit Yeah, your hitbox display is correct. My bad.


Anyways, It's one of the silly "Why not just have the animation match it" things, like Ftilt. Ftilt is dumb about that too.

 

[Berserker.]

When do you guys use arcthunder? I find myself using elthunder most of the time because it's generally an all-around good projectile (9% damage is impressive for a projectile). I sometimes use thoron for sniping or punishing anything, and I use thunder as a quick spacing option. I only use arcthunder in conjunction with arcfire but is there any other use for it?

 

[Dark Lady]

When do you guys use arcthunder? I find myself using elthunder most of the time because it's generally an all-around good projectile (9% damage is impressive for a projectile). I sometimes use thoron for sniping or punishing anything, and I use thunder as a quick spacing option. I only use arcthunder in conjunction with arcfire but is there any other use for it?

Arcthunder creates a situation where you limit the opponents options, especially when it's shielded. It's a vital tool for both finding enemy habits and explioting them.

 

[Janno]

so what are some cool follow ups after glide tossing or throwing a book/sword

some basic stuff like forward throw thoron or z drop to nosferatu
whats new

 

[Pazx]

In order of how often these circumstances in which you would want to wind jab occur:

1) You are waiting for fire tome to respawn.
2) Your opponent is a fatty.
3) Your opponent is RIGHT on top of you when you start jab1.
4) Your opponent happens to spot dodge jab1, then spot dodge jab2.

In all circumstances, have the wind jab last for as little time as possible.

5) Your opponent is on 100% on a platform. Wind jab can kill quite early for a jab and nobody expects it at all in my experience.

 

[Funkermonster]

Is it possible to B-reverse Thunder or Arcfire? Don't fully understand how B-reversing works.

 

[Janno]

For Arcfire it is, for thoron not
Not 100% sure about the other thunders but dont think you can