The attitude towards this game.

[Thunderfang747]

The game favors defense, there is no argument there. This is especially true early in the match when you are feeling each other out and learning how your opponent reacts to situations. However, the reason for that is each option you have available to you has a direct counter and this includes not commiting to anything. I feel this leads to more mixup options here than people truly realize. If someone is standing around shielding all of your aireals, try empty-jump throw. This is a very common mixup in Street Fighter and it goes a long way to scare people away from blocking. Ultimately, committing is not favorable until you have an understanding of what your opponent is up to or you put them in a situation that is undesirable. Then it becomes time to strike.

 

[Quillion]

The game favors defense, there is no argument there. This is especially true early in the match when you are feeling each other out and learning how your opponent reacts to situations. However, the reason for that is each option you have available to you has a direct counter and this includes not commiting to anything. I feel this leads to more mixup options here than people truly realize. If someone is standing around shielding all of your aireals, try empty-jump throw. This is a very common mixup in Street Fighter and it goes a long way to scare people away from blocking. Ultimately, committing is not favorable until you have an understanding of what your opponent is up to or you put them in a situation that is undesirable. Then it becomes time to strike.

So you just proved the point that the best option at tournaments is to just do nothing, both players put the controller, then walk away; the attacker can't be punished, and the counterattacker can't do anything. Because this isn't a competitive game.

 

[Zage]

Let Egoraptor sum up why this game isn't fun competitively again: Video is linked to the right time.

Seriously, someone should edit that part of the video into "Egoraptor describes Smash 4"

I wonder if you even grasped anything Egoraptor was saying or competitive fighting games in general.

Sure Smash 4's is geared towards defensive play but it opens up a lot of room up a more deeper level of game play. Waiting and attacking constantly is going to get boring of course if you're fighting an enemy in a single player geared game like Zelda. Why? Because like Egoraptor said, the enemy is forcing you to play at his pace.

This is untrue for a fighting game, especially one like Smash. Both players have to work to get the other player to commit to an option before they can punish them, so it ends up being a power struggle of who can manipulate the other person into doing that, this is where things like mind-games and conditioning your opponent come in.

Tl;dr Single Player Adventure games aren't Smash.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I wonder if you even grasped anything Egoraptor was saying or competitive fighting games in general.

Sure Smash 4's is geared towards defensive play but it opens up a lot of room up a more deeper level of game play. Waiting and attacking constantly is going to get boring of course if you're fighting an enemy in a single player geared game like Zelda. Why? Because like Egoraptor said, the enemy is forcing you to play at his pace.

This is untrue for a fighting game, especially one like Smash. Both players have to work to get the other player to commit to an option before they can punish them, so it ends up being a power struggle of who can manipulate the other person into doing that, this is where things like mind-games and conditioning your opponent come in.

Tl;dr Zelda isn't Smash.

This man knows. Fighting games are interactions between two players, not interactions between a player and a static CPU who follows a linear pattern. That ALONE changes everything about a defensively oriented or an offensively oriented game. That alone changes everything about the game PERIOD.

The comparison is horribly flawed on its ****ing basest level, that's not including Egoraptor being an idiot.

 

[Quillion]

I wonder if you even grasped anything Egoraptor was saying or competitive fighting games in general.

Sure Smash 4's is geared towards defensive play but it opens up a lot of room up a more deeper level of game play. Waiting and attacking constantly is going to get boring of course if you're fighting an enemy in a single player geared game like Zelda. Why? Because like Egoraptor said, the enemy is forcing you to play at his pace.

This is untrue for a fighting game, especially one like Smash. Both players have to work to get the other player to commit to an option before they can punish them, so it ends up being a power struggle of who can manipulate the other person into doing that, this is where things like mind-games and conditioning your opponent come in.

Because if YOU are on the offensive, the opponent dictates the pace of the match. It should take skill to use defense to turn the game around; making it so that it takes skill to break through turtling isn't good design by any means. And then there's the possibility of both players just being on the defensive, considering that the pace is dictated by defense.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If someone's defensive in this game sucks they get ripped apart. Where's the lack of skill that I'm supposed to acknowledge? Solid defense beats solid offense, even better offense beats solid defense. It's not rocket science. There is such a thing as offensive baiting and capitalizing.

Making it take skill to break turtling is the ****ing basis of every traditional old school fighting game since Street Fighter god damn TWO. How do you beat Guile? You beat his projectile and normal game, AKA turtling. In fact, if Smash is a fighting game, then this is the essence of the GRAND DADDY of Fighting Games, Street Fighter ****ing 2. The minute you call SF2 a badly designed game you spit on the fundamentals of fighting games as a whole and lose the ability for me to take you remotely seriously.

Some dude who's worked on his defensive game for all of the meta should not be busted open by some dude playing recklessly offensive for all of 2 weeks.

 

[RanserSSF4]

And the commentators are just too desperate to make things hype.

One game had Sheik fair fair fair ---> Bouncing fish ----> Down throw ---> fair fair fair ---> Bouncing fish ----> Down throw repeat. And they were like "OH WOW IF THAT BOUNCING FISH HIT IT WOULD BE SO HYPE" i kid you not they were scrapping the plate just to get hype over something. There are no mix ups in this game almost all combos start from the same throw.

Singles are a bore fest and its the source of where all the complaining and distaste is coming from(especially due to common characters such as Diddy,Rosalina,Sheik ect) but Doubles is amazing to watch.

I hope they scrap 4 v 4 and make it 3 v 3 instead.

Basically singles ain't good but Doubles is this game strong point imo lets hope Nintendo doesn't patch any AT we find and work on.

Yeah, but lots of players in Melee do the same combos with the top 5 best characters and yet, they're fine with that, and you also don't seem to mind seeing melee players play mostly just Falco, Fox, Marth, Shiek, and Jigglypuff all the time, while you don't like seeing characters like Diddy (Which I do think should get nerfed just a little), Rosalina, or Shiek in Smash 4. True, you get new characters in Melee to appear, such as Ganondorf, Luigi, and Yoshi, but those barely happen. Not going to say Brawl as we know 90% of the time, we see just Metaknights and IC's. While I do get your point of the hype part, they do the same thing a lot in Melee. Trust me, I've watched a ton of Melee streams and they do that a lot when people do the same combos in Melee. I play mix ups all the time in Smash 4 as Captain Falcon, and it definitly works, you just got to play it right, depending on match-up.

I don't hate Melee, I love the game, but you said some things I wanted to point and criticize about.

 

[Quillion]

If someone's defensive in this game sucks they get ripped apart. Where's the lack of skill that I'm supposed to acknowledge? Solid defense beats solid offense, even better offense beats solid defense. It's not rocket science. There is such a thing as offensive baiting and capitalizing.

Making it take skill to break turtling is the ****ing basis of every traditional old school fighting game since Street Fighter god damn TWO. How do you beat Guile? You beat his projectile and normal game, AKA turtling. In fact, if Smash is a fighting game, then this is the essence of the GRAND DADDY of Fighting Games, Street Fighter ****ing 2

Because Smash is supposed to be going against the grain of the traditional fighter: Far more mobile, far simpler inputs, more characters on the field...

And another thing, SF2 is OUTDATED. Every single Capcom fighter since then has built upon the model in different ways, but all of them make the game much more exciting by making the game faster, embracing advanced techniques, and raising the reward for higher skill.

Sakurai needs to do the same instead of shying away from that.

Yeah, but lots of players in Melee do the same combos with the top 5 best characters and yet, they're fine with that, and you also don't seem to mind seeing melee players play mostly just Falco, Fox, Marth, Shiek, and Jigglypuff all the time, while you don't like seeing characters like Diddy (Which I do think should get nerfed just a little), Rosalina, or Shiek in Smash 4. True, you get new characters in Melee to appear, such as Ganondorf, Luigi, and Yoshi, but those barely happen. Not going to say Brawl as we know 90% of the time, we see just Metaknights and IC's. While I do get your point of the hype part, they do the same thing a lot in Melee. Trust me, I've watched a ton of Melee streams and they do that a lot when people do the same combos in Melee. I play mix ups all the time in Smash 4 as Captain Falcon, and it definitly works, you just got to play it right, depending on match-up.

I don't hate Melee, I love the game, but you said some things I wanted to point and criticize about.

Don't know what you're talking about... Melee constantly changes. Sure, there are those bread-and-butter techniques that some characters rely on, but because those approaches are predictable, new ones are developed to counter them. And then newer ones take the place of new ones and so on and so forth. Plus, skill is actually involved in them.

Smash 4's engine isn't conducive at all to a variety of options since every single combo option has high BKB. And Nintendo has made it clear that they intend to patch the rewards for skill... I mean glitches/exploits that come about.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Because Smash is supposed to be going against the grain of the traditional fighter: Far more mobile, far simpler inputs, more characters on the field...

And another thing, SF2 is OUTDATED. Every single Capcom fighter since then has built upon the model in different ways, but all of them make the game much more exciting by making the game faster, embracing advanced techniques, and raising the reward for higher skill.

Sakurai needs to do the same instead of shying away from that.



Don't know what you're talking about... Melee constantly changes. Sure, there are those bread-and-butter techniques that some characters rely on, but because those approaches are predictable, new ones are developed to counter them. And then newer ones take the place of new ones and so on and so forth. Plus, skill is actually involved in them.

Smash 4's engine isn't conducive at all to a variety of options since every single combo option has high BKB. And Nintendo has made it clear that they intend to patch the rewards for skill... I mean glitches/exploits that come about.

I know skill is required, but I've played Melee for years and seen streams for years. Even if they mix things up, the combos still end up being similar to the other one. I do agree that Nintendo is making it harder to learn the game, but I don't think we will see another patch until next year or something.

 

[Quillion]

I know skill is required, but I've played Melee for years and seen streams for years. Even if they mix things up, the combos still end up being similar to the other one. I do agree that Nintendo is making it harder to learn the game, but I don't think we will see another patch until next year or something.

Find three videos of characters doing the same thing over the course of Melee's nearly decade-long tournament scene, then I'll believe you.

Shouldn't be too difficult since there's a thing called YouTube... unless it's impossible.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I'll be honest, seeing threads like this turing into a flame war and seeing others Sh***ing on each other not only sickens me, but frustrates me to the point I just want to leave Smashboards for good or at least for a while. No problem with offering your criticizm, as I do think Diddy should get nerfed and rolls and shields should get fixed, but seeing others being jerks to each other just because they have different opinions just pisses me off. Seriously, a lot need to respect others opinions. I guess I'm like Prog Smith, who mentioned in an article months ago and recently of Apex 2015 not having PM, I feel more disappointed within the community as time goes by.

At this point, this thread should be locked. IT's already causing a flame war as we speak.

 

[Prawn]

Find three videos of characters doing the same thing over the course of Melee's nearly decade-long tournament scene, then I'll believe you.

Shouldn't be too difficult since there's a thing called YouTube... unless it's impossible.

???? I'm really confused. I'm supposed to link you to a bunch of videos of sheiks and Marths chaingrabbing?

 

[Zork]

That's definitely not true. I can watch dozens of different matches only involving Fox and see different combo variations and edge guards in all of them. Whereas in the case of Diddy Kong pretty much the same heavy punishes are being done by everyone on every character and stage. Though I do think Smash 4 has a lot more edge guarding potential than what is currently being shown.

Also Ranser saying you've played Melee "for years" doesn't really mean anything. Casual play is not the same as competitive play. Most of the Smash community has played 64 but it's competitive scene is relatively small so only a few can say they really have played through it and understand it at that level.

 

[Quillion]

???? I'm really confused. I'm supposed to link you to a bunch of videos of sheiks and Marths chaingrabbing?

Go ahead. Do it.

 

[Zork]

The main autocombos I can think of in Melee aside from Icy's infinite are Sheik's throw to fair and Fox's waveshine combos (which only work on some characters and are still fairly technical). The rest are heavily dependent on the percent, match-up, stage, stage positioning, spacing and opponent's combo DI.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Find three videos of characters doing the same thing over the course of Melee's nearly decade-long tournament scene, then I'll believe you.

Shouldn't be too difficult since there's a thing called YouTube... unless it's impossible.

Here are some that a year old to recent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AhkPaHUh0A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx3Qd7hb-Qc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_wzPTZfaOg&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw&index=1

 

[RanserSSF4]

That's definitely not true. I can watch dozens of different matches only involving Fox and see different combo variations and edge guards in all of them. Whereas in the case of Diddy Kong pretty much the same heavy punishes are being done by everyone on every character and stage. Though I do think Smash 4 has a lot more edge guarding potential than what is currently being shown.

Also Ranser saying you've played Melee "for years" doesn't really mean anything. Casual play is not the same as competitive play. Most of the Smash community has played 64 but it's competitive scene is relatively small so only a few can say they really have played through it and understand it at that level.

I do know how to do L-cancelling and wavedashing in Melee.

 

[Zork]

Here are some that a year old to recent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AhkPaHUh0A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx3Qd7hb-Qc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_wzPTZfaOg&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw&index=1

No one is going to sift through that much footage to find what you are talking about. Give specific examples of literally the exact same combo or follow up being done.

 

[Prawn]

Go ahead. Do it.

No I'm legit confused as to what point you're trying to make. But okay. Maybe later.

 

[Zork]

I do know how to do L-cancelling and wavedashing in Melee.

That does not inherently make you a competitive player or prove a deep understanding of the game.

 

[RanserSSF4]

No one is going to sift through that much footage to find what you are talking about. Give specific examples of literally the exact same combo or follow up being done.

Let's see:
marth going for the same chaingrabs, just like Shiek in Melee.
Falco's going for fox shines for the same mix ups and combos.
Foxes going for the same basic Upsmash combos or just Upsmashes in general

 

[TTTTTsd]

Because Smash is supposed to be going against the grain of the traditional fighter: Far more mobile, far simpler inputs, more characters on the field...

And another thing, SF2 is OUTDATED. Every single Capcom fighter since then has built upon the model in different ways, but all of them make the game much more exciting by making the game faster, embracing advanced techniques, and raising the reward for higher skill..

Street Fighter 4 is not faster than SF2. At all. You have no idea how fast a game of SF2 is compared to SF4. I'll give you a hint. SF4 bloated the lifebars and made the game even more footsies than it already was. Sure SF4 has bigger combos but they generally equal less damage and involve a bunch of links that usually is off a hitconfirm in, guess what, footsies. What does this translate to? On average a game of Super Turbo takes much less time than SF4, and why is this? Raw punishes are more rewarded. Having played both to a moderately well degree I can say for a fact that Street Fighter has slowed down in all iterations past Super Turbo.

And no, every Street Fighter has not built upon the model of SF2 beyond very basic fundamentals. System-wise, pace wise, gameplay wise, they are all vastly different games because their core mechanics differ so greatly. You can not play Street fighter Alpha like Street Fighter 2, you can't play SF4 like SF2, you can't play SF3 like any other SF game, the list goes on. The only thing identical between all SFs on a gameplay scale that is consistent, is probably the button layout. The fundamentals and key traits vary in each game, they're all systematically diverse games.

And no Street Fighter does not embrace advanced techniques from previous games, they're discarded for newer ones based on the entry (often times dumbed down or removed due to execution barriers). SF3 had parrying, SF4 axed parry and implemented Focus Attack, a brand new technique. SF2 had nothing, SF Alpha had a bunch of weird **** throughout each individual entry it had (V-Ism, Custom Combo.) The only "advanced techniques" in Street Fighter is combos and various character specific tricks and features (there's a lot but most of them stem from fundamental knowledge), nothing like Melee's AT where it is required for basic movement options at a high level (not calling this bad at all, just saying)

For the record if you're going to call the very active and enthusiast grassroots SF2 Turbo scene "outdated", then by all means I could do that to a lot of other games (hint hint). SF2 has and will always be looked up to as one of the greatest fighting games of all time (particularly Super Turbo), it is FAR from an outdated game.

If anything Smash is pretty comparable to SF in terms of progression. You have a really fast game (Melee) getting slower and more entry level as time goes on, eventually reaching where we are now.

TL;DR You don't seem to understand how much Street Fighter has changed iteration per iteration. It's really not that far off of an example.

 

[Zork]

Let's see:
marth going for the same chaingrabs, just like Shiek in Melee.
Falco's going for fox shines for the same mix ups and combos.
Foxes going for the same basic Upsmash combos or just Upsmashes in general

You still not have given any specific examples. Give me two instances where the exact same sequence was done in those videos. And a single shine or up Smash is not a combo.

 

[RanserSSF4]

That does not inherently make you a competitive player or prove a deep understanding of the game.

I will admit as a kid, I didn't know L-cancelling and wavedashing existed until I saw it on youtube around the late 2000's. Starting practicing those and it's enjoyable and makes the game more exciting to play and watch.

 

[Zork]

What I'm trying to say is while Marth can chaingrab spacies in Melee (like many characters) the types of true followups he can get are heavily dependent on the stage, the opponent's DI, the options you pick and what you are going for (damage vs positioning). So you can watch him do it dozens of times and have no two sequences be exactly the same.

If you wanted a good example of what you are trying to say, you should have picked Ice Climbers the king of autocombos with their infinite in both Melee and Brawl. That's something I'm sure no one misses.

 

[RanserSSF4]

You still not have given any specific examples. Give me two instances where the exact same sequence was done. And a single shine or up Smash is not a combo.

Girm in one of the videos I linked, was mostly going for the chaingrabs throughout most of the game and same edgeguarding tactics.
Leffen was going for the same basic Foxshine pressure into a basic Uthrow to Upsmash combo or UThrow to Uair.

at this point, I don't feel like getting into another argument. It's getting out of hand, and I'm not hating on Melee. I love the game, but there are times it can get boring to watch just watching the same top 5 characters being played all the time in tournaments.

 

[Thunderfang747]

So you just proved the point that the best option at tournaments is to just do nothing, both players put the controller, then walk away; the attacker can't be punished, and the counterattacker can't do anything. Because this isn't a competitive game.

What I mean to say is that Smash 4 is a game about reads. If your opponent is standing around chucking projectiles at you, figure out their projectile patterns and approach from where the projectiles aren't going to be. Once you get to an uncomfortable distance for a defensive player, bait out a defensive maneuver from them and punish it. If your opponent decides to stand around shielding everything you do, well that's why you have a grab. If an attack you use puts the opponent at a distance where comboing isn't possible and your opponent keeps dodging, next time jump up, wait for an airdodge, and punish them after the fact. This is where the depth comes into play, it is all about baiting, feinting, and punishing once you have the proper read on how your opponent reacts to you. If every approach you make is getting stuffed, then chances are your opponent has a read on you. I understand this type of game is nothing like Melee and is not for everyone, but please don't be condescending or act like Smash 4 isn't competitive at all. Personally I find both Smash 4 and Melee to be thrilling to play and provide different tastes on the same idea.

 

[Zork]

I actually believe Project M has the most potential out of any Smash game for that reason. Melee's character balance is one of its weakest points.

Up throw to up Smash only works on certain characters at low percents. And the followups you get afterwords become much more interesting to the point where people are still trying to figure out what is optimal and when. Up throw to up air will only work at very specific percents that are heavily character and stage dependent. And it can still be SDIed unless you space it so only the second hit connects (which is extremely hard to do).

 

[Quillion]

No I'm legit confused as to what point you're trying to make. But okay. Maybe later.

The point is that you have no proof about what you're trying to say, whereas in every Smash 4 video, every character has only one real combo option if any.

Let's see:
marth going for the same chaingrabs, just like Shiek in Melee.
Falco's going for fox shines for the same mix ups and combos.
Foxes going for the same basic Upsmash combos or just Upsmashes in general

And you just proved that the combos are insanely varied. Setups are somewhat similar throughout, but there's a lot of variety in followups.

I actually believe Project M has the most potential out of any Smash game for that reason. Melee's character balance is one of its weakest points.

Then you and other Melee fans should stop ignoring Melee SD Remix and play it on your Wii or Dolphin emulator.

 

[no1butmenotu]

Hmmmm....I don't understand. I always figured that every smash depended primarily on whether you can read your opponents or not and play mind games. Is there really more to it? I see many people talking about defensive strategies vs offensive strategies and such, but I'm still scratching my head since I rely on mind games and being as unpredictable as possible. If I see someone standing on the other side of the screen, I'm not going to simply dash them and attack, I probably will dash them, grab, back up, throw a projectile or two, dash again, up grab, juggle them, dodge, block, and so on (I have been using megaman a lot lately).

Can someone please explain to me what Smash is supposed to be? I'm being dead serious. This isn't a troll. I played every smash game and even though the physics are different in each one, I always figured that fighting games were all about mind games and reads.

 

[Prawn]

The point is that you have no proof about what you're trying to say, whereas in every Smash 4 video, every character has only one real combo option if any.



And you just proved that the combos are insanely varied. Setups are somewhat similar throughout, but there's a lot of variety in followups.



Then you and other Melee fans should stop ignoring Melee SD Remix and play it on your Wii or Dolphin emulator.

Okay I quit smashboards

 

[TTTTTsd]

Okay I quit smashboards

TBH I think this thread was just asking for it despite its intent and purpose. Look at my college thesis on Street Fighter that I posted above.

 

[Zork]

I like all Smash games. So I wouldn't prefer a Melee SD Remix over PM as PM combines most of the best aspects of Melee AND Brawl into one tight package. There's a ton of useful options Brawl ATs added to Melee's engine in PM people don't know about.

 

[Prawn]

TBH I think this thread was just asking for it despite its intent and purpose. Look at my college thesis on Street Fighter that I posted above.

Nobody's ever done a same thing in melee ever, it also is a 100% offensive game, it also cured AIDs, and nobody plays street fighter 2 anymore(the only game anyone references when discussing "traditional fighters")

Grampasimpson.gif

 

[TTTTTsd]

Nobody's ever done a same thing in melee ever, it also is a 100% offensive game, it also cured AIDs, and nobody plays street fighter 2 anymore(the only game anyone references when discussing "traditional fighters")

Grampasimpson.gif

I wish more people played SF as a whole (all of its series and sequels) to realize that, no, they are far from the same fundamentally on a per entry basis. *sniffle*.

I do feel like Grandpa Simpson...

 

[warionumbah2]

Yeah, but lots of players in Melee do the same combos with the top 5 best characters and yet, they're fine with that, and you also don't seem to mind seeing melee players play mostly just Falco, Fox, Marth, Shiek, and Jigglypuff all the time, while you don't like seeing characters like Diddy (Which I do think should get nerfed just a little), Rosalina, or Shiek in Smash 4. True, you get new characters in Melee to appear, such as Ganondorf, Luigi, and Yoshi, but those barely happen. Not going to say Brawl as we know 90% of the time, we see just Metaknights and IC's. While I do get your point of the hype part, they do the same thing a lot in Melee. Trust me, I've watched a ton of Melee streams and they do that a lot when people do the same combos in Melee. I play mix ups all the time in Smash 4 as Captain Falcon, and it definitly works, you just got to play it right, depending on match-up.

I don't hate Melee, I love the game, but you said some things I wanted to point and criticize about.

. Melee combo's have mix ups but Sm4sh has non of that at least from what i've seen from tournaments, the character ratio thing you literally contradicted yourself i can name other Melee characters that are used frequently: Dr Mario,Captain Falcon,Pikachu ect.

Nowadays in Sm4sh we got Diddy simple combo with no mix ups same with others, this game brings no hype due to the same bread and butter down throws we see and drawn out fights involving Rosalina which forces patient play thus making the viewers bored out their minds and fuelling more complaints that i can honesty concur with.

I wasn't gonna call you a Melee hater don't worry but singles is definitely not Sm4shes strong point they should stick with doubles its the closest thing this game will get in terms of hype since comebacks in 2v1 situations are more doable.

 

[Zork]

However going back to my Ice Climbers example, you'll notice in both Melee and Brawl Ice Climbers are usually anything but fan favourites (except when 9b in Brawl was playing due to his crazy desync tricks and edge guarding) for that very reason among others. When a character has one optimal option that's a million times better than any other it's not good for the metagame.

So you cannot say people love it when it happens in Melee but not in Smash 4. Otherwise people wouldn't boo during wobbling (and I can show you tournament footage of this happening).

 

[TTTTTsd]

I won't lie, doubles has excellent potential (I enjoy Singles myself) due to the way the ledges work, and all the crazy **** having actual hitstun can do for doubles in this game compared to Brawl.

 

[RanserSSF4]

TBH I think this thread was just asking for it despite its intent and purpose. Look at my college thesis on Street Fighter that I posted above.

Kind of agree there, but I wouldn't blame him, i too am getting tired as crap about this. I mentioned yesterday on this thread that this will turn into a flame war and get locked and it looks like it's coming true. I don't mind criticizm at all, and I agree with the problems of Smash 4, but I don't like to raise arguments, and it just frustrates me

 

[Swoops]

So apparently there's no report thread button?