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The attitude towards this game.

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genesis_SOC

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All the things you mentioned make the online laggy environment harder to deal with, which is why there's probably so much more critique on those issues than usual: we've never had a Smash with a decent online before so it's naturally more popular.

Adjusting to this Smash is definitely taking time and most people would rather complain than adjust. I think all of these opinions will likely change over the next few months as meta games develop and sink in. As much as I want the knee jerk reaction of nerfing Diddy and making rolls slightly more punishable (for laggy online reasons, not an issue offline or when both connections are good and you can actually dash attack, f smash, d smash, jab combo ect. punish the roll), making aerials less laggy, make shields regenerate slower ect. I think we should just embrace the game as it is for awhile and allow the natural strategies to develop.

3DS has only been out for a couple months, Wii U just came out a few weeks ago. Definitely needs more time before any real verdicts are decided. The only patches and changes should be truly game breaking things, like Link's bomb canceling or ATs that were never intended.
 

Cho

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But it doesn't matter what Nintendo do, people will always defend them and tell us to adapt. Mario Part 9 is as competitive as this one.
But it doesn't matter what Nintendo does- people will always attack them and tear any non-melee-smashbros apart. (just for clarification- I enjoy both games alot)


Back on topic-

I mostly agree to what was stated in the first post- however... I still think rolls are too strong- but let me finish.

To beat a button-mashing-only player in Street Fighter it takes a certain level of skill- granted, if you're in competitive play that skill "requirement" is not that high. However as a casual player you probably will struggle for a while with button mashers.
Rolling in Smash 4 is imho comparable to button mashing in Street Fighter in a way that you need a certain understanding of the game to confidently face rolling players.
For the sake of those casual players (you know.. the vast majority of Smash players) I think nerfing rolls would be more than justified...

Also... why do people get upset about strong rolls to begin with? In Melee they were nearly completely useless. And now as they don't get you punished every time you do them- now as they actually do what originally has been their purpose: evading damage... they are suddenly too strong?... Hey... it's not like you could win a tournament relying on rolling skills.. so why even bother?
 
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Quillion

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Hey KumaOso, add this to your list:

"This game is defensive and campy. I have no proof but I'm still right lol".
 

Asdioh

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I feel kind of bad because the newer people here don't know Falconv1.0 is nothing but a troll. I'm surprised he's still around, actually. Hey guy! You made some elitists crawl out of their hole and talk trash, that's good too.

In case you're actually serious...
He gives no reasons that we should play this game at all. He just makes these weak arguments that these problems the game has doesn't ruin the game. I don't need Smash to do what Melee did, but when it's the slowest most nothing filled glitchy ****ing fighter I've seen, there's a problem. The game feels like a bad Brawl mod.

People will try to compare its slow bull**** to a traditional fighter. I call these people "people who have never actually played a fighter".
I think the point OP is trying to make is "git gud." All I hear from you is "I can't mindlessly rush down my opponent 100% of the time, this game sucks!"

And the fact that you called it slower than Brawl really gave away your trolling :/
3/10 you can do better.
 

Quillion

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I feel kind of bad because the newer people here don't know Falconv1.0 is nothing but a troll. I'm surprised he's still around, actually. Hey guy! You made some elitists crawl out of their hole and talk trash, that's good too.

In case you're actually serious...I think the point OP is trying to make is "git gud." All I hear from you is "I can't mindlessly rush down my opponent 100% of the time, this game sucks!"

And the fact that you called it slower than Brawl really gave away your trolling :/
3/10 you can do better.
Can't we just do the smart thing and IGNORE HIM!!!???

Anyway, have people been experimenting with pivots as an approach option? You can do anything out of that, so that should enable rushdowns, right?
 

BobVance_

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Random point here, but is it crazy to say that from a casual perspective I actually prefer Brawl? The stages in this game feel so ridiculously chaotic that half of the time I feel like I'm fighting the hazards and bosses more than other players...And when it's just "competitive" 1vs1, matches go on forever and consist of boring half-a*sed approaches...And if Ktar was any indication, this game has absolutely zero viewership hype.
 
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TTTTTsd

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Honestly I know this might sound silly but looking at dashdancing....if you just added it, what would it even do?

You lack options out of dash in this game (I'm not complaining about this, that's just how it is). I'm p. sure you can jump out of it but that's about it, you can't shield (which would be the optimal thing out of a DD mixup in this meta for certain characters like Ganon), like, I can't be the only one who thinks it wouldn't really add much to the meta at all. Don't get me wrong I love me a good dashdance but the game's mechanics have to flow around it.
 

Terotrous

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Ground approaches are not "more viable" just because air approaches suck. They just changed the game so that ALL approaching sucks.
Actually, they kind of are. If you're less likely to eat an aerial in the face when coming in from the ground (because that aerial might be unsafe), that makes grounded approaches more viable. However, grounded approaches also got buffed. Pivots and run up shield are really good in this game. Many dash attacks and other grounded normals were also improved compared to past games.
 

TTTTTsd

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Actually, they kind of are. If you're less likely to eat an aerial in the face when coming in from the ground (because that aerial might be unsafe), that makes grounded approaches more viable. However, grounded approaches also got buffed. Pivots and run up shield are really good in this game. Many dash attacks and other grounded normals were also improved compared to past games.
Run up shield is one of Ganon's best ways to press forward because of how people have to respect them in this game so I'm inclined to agree. It's a bit slower than "DASH FF AERIAL GRAB" but it's an approach nonetheless. Helps that Ganon's Dash is super short so this is really important for him.
 

Utena

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And the fact that you called it slower than Brawl really gave away your trolling :/
3/10 you can do better.
thats why smash 4 matches currently play with 2 stocks right? because its faster than brawl?
please...
 

TTTTTsd

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I don't think he meant game time but rather pace and player participation and how matches play out.

I feel a lot more in control and it feels more fluid in Smash 4 than it did in Brawl. While matches may take less or even more time, nobody can argue that the stalling was cut down and that the pacing has been fundamentally been improved on a level of active player participation and decision making
 

Nocally

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As a Pikachu main, I don't have trouble approaching, yay me.
 

Asdioh

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thats why smash 4 matches currently play with 2 stocks right? because its faster than brawl?
please...
I'm in favor of 3 stock matches. I don't remember how long the average 3 stock match took in Brawl, but in this game it's probably roughly close. And it seems much less likely to lead to timeouts, especially with the rage mechanic.
 

Gatoray

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Personally, if the meta devolves into what we saw happening in brawl, I would be all for allowing one or limited equipment to maybe change the game a bit. There seems to be a few more strings and possibilities for follow ups in this game compared to brawl but I'm not sure it it's necessarily enough.
I still vouch for equipment as a viable way to play competitively. I know I'm the extreme minority, but if we can figure out a way to hack specific legal equipment into the game, we can share the save file with TOs and develop tournament builds. Think high agility plus smooth lander plus hard braker. That could be so hype.
 

cardboardowl

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i share most of the pet peeves with the op

People are just to impatient for me. Let the game grow before you throw huge bitchfits about what you don't like.
 

Terotrous

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I still vouch for equipment as a viable way to play competitively. I know I'm the extreme minority, but if we can figure out a way to hack specific legal equipment into the game, we can share the save file with TOs and develop tournament builds. Think high agility plus smooth lander plus hard braker. That could be so hype.
Yes, you could just fly all around the stage and mash buttons and always be safe on everything!


I think a lot of the reason people want smooth lander is because they want mindless pressure. "I shouldn't be punishable just because I got read! If the opponent makes the correct read I should still have frame advantage!" This would be especially bonkers in this game without wavedashing and dash dancing, which were the only things that kept SHFFL in check.


Most of the depth in Smash Bros comes from the fact that you and your opponent have multiple options in most situations. You have to try to anticipate which ones they will use and act accordingly. It's actually very satisfying when you get it right.
 
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brodouble

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the attitude is that as far as fighting games are concerned, this is a bad one. obviously, all you have to do is watch some tourney streams to figure that much.
 
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madworlder

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If you watched week one marvel, you would think that's a slow game too.

There's really, really nothing wrong with this game.
 

PCHU

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Say what you want about it not being Melee, it's whatever, but you can't deny that there's quite a bit of unnecessary endlag on moves and there are characters who just lack the options to deal with faster characters or characters with projectiles (which often coincide with each other).

In reference to a traditional fighter, which I'll use BlazBlue as an example, Tager had enough hitstun on his j2C to combo specific moves from, and as far as I could tell, it's one of few/the only aerial in the game with real landing lag.
In general, offensive grounded moves string into one another to form block strings, and aerial moves cancel into other aerial moves or grounded moves on landing to keep a combo going (Ragna's 5B 5C jB jC jD 5B 5C jB jC jD on Tager is a good example of this).
In Smash, you're limited to the individual properties of each move in regards to cooldown and startup; rarely are there cancels.
Melee's pressure allowed you to cancel your landing lag to continue a pressure string on the ground, or have a better chance at evading an anticipated punish while Brawl dealt with autocancels and normally forgiving IASA frames to achieve a similar effect, though it wasn't anywhere near as intricate as Melee.
This is where that concept gets kinda weird -- Smash 4's like a hybrid of Melee and Brawl, but in many cases fails to compensate for the characters who are naturally slow.
Faster characters (Sheik, CF, Fox) can actually get away with a bit on block just because of their low landing lag and evasive potential in general mobility.
Even in PM, bigger and slower characters at least have ample attack speed and range with which to combat even the most aggressive characters, so it isn't a big deal if their aerials don't cancel as fast as Marth's/Sheik's/whoever's.

The game just doesn't feel smooth a lot of times and I spend a whole lot of time either setting up a gordo wall for my immobile opponent to completely ignore or chasing down my opponent who seems to only want to throw junk at me.
When there's actual solid play, it gets kinda interesting, but it doesn't feel like a leap from Brawl, and going back and playing Brawl, I feel like it took some steps back in a way.
People keep saying that this game is fine and you just have to deal with it, and I will keep playing it, but you can't just ignore what it's doing wrong (I mean, you can, and I guess it's cool if you genuinely enjoy it) and expect people who've debated the same crap for months to suddenly think "Oh, man, this game's good now".
While there's a vast difference in characters, I don't feel like anyone's really -that- interesting to play (Snake is still the most unique character to me), and the gameplay in general doesn't feel that engaging.

Keep in mind that I wanted to like this game and I still want to like this game, but rather than seeing anyone try to figure out something cool or new, I see "Why can't you just adapt" and "Melee elitists are just mad".
I've adapted and actually done pretty freaking well, but when it comes down to it, I only kept playing because I had nothing else to do; the game doesn't feel like it has anything over Brawl aside from better graphics and easier characters.
If we can find more stuff like turn canceling, it'll be really cool because that actually did add on to the game (not to mention it's useful); I really hope we can find some cool and interesting things to add to our list of options.
 

Saito

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Honestly I know this might sound silly but looking at dashdancing....if you just added it, what would it even do?

You lack options out of dash in this game (I'm not complaining about this, that's just how it is). I'm p. sure you can jump out of it but that's about it, you can't shield (which would be the optimal thing out of a DD mixup in this meta for certain characters like Ganon), like, I can't be the only one who thinks it wouldn't really add much to the meta at all. Don't get me wrong I love me a good dashdance but the game's mechanics have to flow around it.
  • DD : Dash Dance
  • PP : Perfect Pivot

Alone DD might not do anything other than mental pressure and potentially bait and punish.

However, apply the existing mechanics of smash 4 then you've got mix up options with pivot tilts, dash attacks, pivot smashes and pivot grabs.

At eventual higher level play you'd also have DD into PP Dtilt, PP Utilt, or PP Jab. Possibly PP grab as well depending on character. PP Dsmash might be good on a character like Robin as well.

For a faster dasher like little mac, it could also serve as a way to get behind the opponent by feinting them out a dash dance then sneaking behind them using his blistering speed. A Perfect pivot would be optimal there to set up one of the above options, or even a fox trot into another dash dance to bait out a roll or attack since they would probably want to be facing you.
 

momochuu

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game came out like two months ago and people are already ******** about a meta game that isn't even developed yet.
 

SuaveChaser

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On approaching being unsafe:
It is a problem. It's a HUGE problem. When the person who acts first is at a tremendous disadvantage, you end up with a stale, boring, defensive game. When shields, rolls, spot dodges, and just hitting an approaching target is as safe as it is in this game, players are going to be very, very reluctant to ever throw out an attack that isn't a punish.

And it's only going to get worse. We are in the infant stages of this game. I was watching a tournament yesterday and could already see glimpses of the future watching things like diddy's side B get more consistently punished by smashes. People are going to get more and more used to seeing offensive options, and the game is going to get even more defensive than it already is.

Sure, it's still technically a competitive game at that point, you can host tournaments and everything. But it won't be a FUN competitive game.

On aerials being laggy and lack of movement options:
The game is dull as paint when your approach options are limited by laggy aerials and no movement abilities.

In melee, you can move towards your opponent and retain your full toolbox, along with your aerials not being useless against a grounded opponent. This leads to fun, agressive gameplay.

In smash, if you try and aggressively get near your opponent, all of your options are heavily punishable and you will lose almost every time. The game promotes a very slow, boring, defensive style, hit confirming everything off of projectiles if possible, avoiding committing to a punishable action as much as possible.

You worded it perfectly i have been trying to play this game agressively as possible.
The complaints stem from the gameplay not being what people want. I want a fast aggressive game with lots of ways for the better player to come out ahead.

This game does not deliver.
 

HeavyLobster

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Random point here, but is it crazy to say that from a casual perspective I actually prefer Brawl?
No. From a casual perspective I actually prefer Smash 64/Melee and from a competitive perspective I prefer Brawl/Smash 4.
 

Nyhte

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Honestly I know this might sound silly but looking at dashdancing....if you just added it, what would it even do?

You lack options out of dash in this game (I'm not complaining about this, that's just how it is). I'm p. sure you can jump out of it but that's about it, you can't shield (which would be the optimal thing out of a DD mixup in this meta for certain characters like Ganon), like, I can't be the only one who thinks it wouldn't really add much to the meta at all. Don't get me wrong I love me a good dashdance but the game's mechanics have to flow around it.
Well they could always fix/change that to better accommodate movement

I like dash dancing because it's easy and gets rid of the turn rate, so you aren't locked into the 1 2 3 of "i'm going to grab, attack or not" with forward momentum

I think people just want dash dancing because of that, seems more fluid
 

RIP_Lucas

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If camping were really so OP, wouldn't duck hunt and ROB be top tier? They're not, because it's versatile characters and creative players that make a match good, not combos and chain grabs that decide a game before it even starts. The diversity of sm4sh makes it miles better than any other smash (except PM, but the two are so different that they're almost incomparable), so shut up melee elitists. Being able to break a camping link is way more skill based than arbitrarily knowing some technique like wave dashing
 
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Blitzern

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"it's not like you could win a tournament relying on rolling skills.."

Ever heard of Rolltaro? :yeahboi:
 

Raijinken

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I agree fully with the OP.

There is room for criticism, but, as has been said a million times, if you want to play a different game, go play a different game. This game doesn't need to be a past game to be a success, and no one is forcing you to play a new game if you prefer an old one. Furthermore, any assumptions that only aggressive play can be considered fun are outright false.

What the game needs, and currently has, is a balance of aggressive and defensive play which no past game even approached. If Defense gets you punished, like it does in Melee, then entire character designs are locked out of validity due to mechanics. That's bad design, no matter how "competitive" and "fun" it was. A balance has to be stricken, and with any luck, Sakurai/Nandai will continually tweak the game such that a healthy balance between offensive and defensive validity will be hit.
 

Cheezy23

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I agree fully with the OP.

There is room for criticism, but, as has been said a million times, if you want to play a different game, go play a different game. This game doesn't need to be a past game to be a success, and no one is forcing you to play a new game if you prefer an old one. Furthermore, any assumptions that only aggressive play can be considered fun are outright false.

What the game needs, and currently has, is a balance of aggressive and defensive play which no past game even approached. If Defense gets you punished, like it does in Melee, then entire character designs are locked out of validity due to mechanics. That's bad design, no matter how "competitive" and "fun" it was. A balance has to be stricken, and with any luck, Sakurai/Nandai will continually tweak the game such that a healthy balance between offensive and defensive validity will be hit.
I like this post...a lot.

As someone just jumping into competitive with Smash 4, and having watched the final's match of EVO 2014, maybe I'm ignorant, but to me when I watched that match, it just looked like Jigglypuff was bouncing at the edge of the stage waiting for Fox to mess up...What else do I do when I play Jigglypuff? (Not a pro Jigglypuff player, but just throwing out my two cents.)

Point being, when I've faced people who're on my level that are playing Link/someone else who has a campy play style, I usually feel like it's because of my lack of skill that I can't get to them.

I'd say give Smash 4 room to breath. see what the community thinks after EVO or Apex or something like that.


Edit: I don't know much about Smash competitive, and I know that the Jigglypuff comparison is a major generalization, so I acknowledge if I'm wrong about some things.
 
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Raijinken

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tl;dr: There wouldn't be this many characters if some were meant to be bad, and we have proof that even game mechanics are subject to change with balance patches. Adapt and play the Smash game, adapt and play the Waiting game, or adapt and play a Different game.
I like this post...a lot.

As someone just jumping into competitive with Smash 4, and having watched the final's match of EVO 2014, maybe I'm ignorant, but to me when I watched that match, it just looked like Jigglypuff was bouncing at the edge of the stage waiting for Fox to mess up...What else do I do when I play Jigglypuff? (Not a pro Jigglypuff player, but just throwing out my two cents.)

Point being, when I've faced people who're on my level that are playing Link/someone else who has a campy play style, I usually feel like it's because of my lack of skill that I can't get to them.

I'd say give Smash 4 room to breath. see what the community thinks after EVO or Apex or something like that.


Edit: I don't know much about Smash competitive, and I know that the Jigglypuff comparison is a major generalization, so I acknowledge if I'm wrong about some things.
Scenarios like that can, will, and really, should arise as a result of some matchups. I saw someone earlier saying that people learning to beat out Diddy's sideB is a sign that the game is tending towards camping. I must point out that if his sideB is meant to be unpunishable, then it, like the infamous Bouncing Fish of 1.03, is far too rewarding for virtually no risk. That sort of design may be "fun" to some players, but it is literally only fun for the player using that character, and shows a poor sense of balance. That sort of "fun" is what gave us a very narrow list of "viable" characters in past games.

I understand that it takes years, if not longer, to make a perfectly balanced game (the only game I'm familiar with that gets labeled thus frequently is Starcraft Brood War, and that took years to "perfect"), and that some characters/playstyles will be in or out of style based on what's dominant at the time. A lot of copycatting goes on in higher level play due to the perception that there is a "best" character and "best" strategy. And that's certainly true, and it does frequently, especially with that sort of copycatting, take a very long time for new metas to develop. That's one of the things that makes me so excited for balance patches. Characters have already, and will likely continue to change from a balance standpoint. To boot, Sakurai/Nandai has shown that they are NOT afraid to alter game mechanics (Vectoring/DI from 1.03 to 1.04) if it will make for a better experience.

That's what I, personally, believe they're going for, and will hopefully achieve. The best experience, Smash as it was meant to be played. Don't get me wrong, I love every single Smash game, including Melee and Brawl, no matter how much I may bash one or the other for things done "wrong". But one thing that a mod recently mentioned was that "Ganondorf was picked to have a bad grab for a reason." That is a true statement. But what is not a correct extrapolation is that Ganondorf, or any other character, is deliberately designed to be bad. No matter your playtesters or Nandai's ability to balance games, nothing is right off the bat, and it is literally impossible for the designer to foresee every possible gameplay trend and balance accordingly on the first shot.

Balance is an iterative process, and one that we're finally able to experience in an official Smash title, not just through mods. If, to reuse examples, Ganondorf just cannot hold weight in the game, he can, and should be changed. If his grab needs range or throw power or SOMETHING, he can and should be given that. If Monkey Leap is intended to be versatile as an attack or grab, then it shouldn't be safe. If it's considered too safe, that can be adjusted (see patch 1.04 for numerous cases of endlag changing).

If Sakurai and Nandai are after a defensive game, well, again, there are past games that players are welcome to continue playing. If they're after an aggressive game, there are other ways to make it aggressive aside from copying and pasting glorified physics glitches from past games. Shieldstun. Endlag. Hitlag. If mobility is too weak an option, they'll fix that. If rolling is too strong (entertaining, isn't it, how a mobility option will be bashed for being OP in the same breath that condemns the game for not having mobility options?), they'll nerf it. If it's too weak, they'll buff it.

I, at least, have faith that they'll balance this game for a while, tweak things here and there, and we'll end up with the perfect generalized Smash Bros game. You can please some people all of the time, and all people some of the time, but you can't please all people all of the time, and for that, other games exist.
 
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Vkrm

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Fully agree with op. You guys just aren't liking this game enough. One things for sure, it's definitely your problem if you don't like this game. As we all know smash 4 is the perfect game, a marvel of modern game design made from rainbow dust and fairy ****. Lol. If you prefer to believe we are failing to enjoy the game instead of believing they made an unenjoyable game, that's okay.
 
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Cheezy23

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Fully agree with op. You guys just aren't liking this game enough. One things for sure, it's definitely your problem if you don't like this game. As we all know smash 4 is the perfect game, a marvel of modern game design made from rainbow dust and fairy ****. Lol. If you prefer to believe we are failing to enjoy the game instead of believing they made an unemployable game, that's okay.
Remembering that "good" and "bad" when it comes to any game period is subjective is always something to keep in mind.

There are people that think brawl just sucks. I don't, I love brawl (going back is hard though), it was my first Smash Bros game, but I don't necessarily fault people who hate the game, they can think what they think.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly love Smash 4. But saying that it is the perfect game, to me, seems like a stretch. I certainly think that things could use work on the competitive side, and things that could potentially get fixed.

I'm not saying that you're wrong necessarily, you're fully entitled to your opinion. But just remember that some people might just not like this game, competitively or otherwise.
 

Emblem Lord

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A KumaOso thread?

We are honored.

In all seriousness, this guy has been around for awhile.

Listen to him.
 
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Raijinken

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Durham, NC
Remembering that "good" and "bad" when it comes to any game period is subjective is always something to keep in mind.

There are people that think brawl just sucks. I don't, I love brawl (going back is hard though), it was my first Smash Bros game, but I don't necessarily fault people who hate the game, they can think what they think.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly love Smash 4. But saying that it is the perfect game, to me, seems like a stretch. I certainly think that things could use work on the competitive side, and things that could potentially get fixed.

I'm not saying that you're wrong necessarily, you're fully entitled to your opinion. But just remember that some people might just not like this game, competitively or otherwise.
That right there is the real thing about these boards as a whole. Not liking one particular game or another is fine. But rather than waste your and everyone else's time complaining (you being a general term), spend that time discussing the games you DO like. Each game has its strengths and weaknesses. They are what they are, and while this is the only one that is capable of changing mechanically and on a character basis, it's still a waste of time to gripe about it for not being custom-tailored to your own selfish demands.
 

cardboardowl

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
111
Fully agree with op. You guys just aren't liking this game enough. One things for sure, it's definitely your problem if you don't like this game. As we all know smash 4 is the perfect game, a marvel of modern game design made from rainbow dust and fairy ****. Lol. If you prefer to believe we are failing to enjoy the game instead of believing they made an unenjoyable game, that's okay.
you just don't get it
 

Cheezy23

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
104
NNID
Cheezy23
That right there is the real thing about these boards as a whole. Not liking one particular game or another is fine. But rather than waste your and everyone else's time complaining (you being a general term), spend that time discussing the games you DO like. Each game has its strengths and weaknesses. They are what they are, and while this is the only one that is capable of changing mechanically and on a character basis, it's still a waste of time to gripe about it for not being custom-tailored to your own selfish demands.
I like your way of thinking.

I want to add this: if you really like Melee, if you hold Melee to the highest degree of fighting games, great! Seriously, awesome, you like a game a lot and want to make other people see how awesome it is.

However, what you need to understand is that you don't need to bash the other game in order to get good press for yours. Instead of making something or someone look bad for liking it and therefore making your thing better by comparison, focus on why you think that your thing is friggin awesome.
 

PCHU

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
1,901
Location
Jackson, Tennessee
I want to have faith in Nintendo's balancing, but looking at this, I'm not really sure what they're aiming for, this "way that Smash is meant to be played".
Whatever this fun is that others are having with the game, I want to have it, but I find myself being irritated even after winning just because the match itself wasn't what I'd call good; I hardly feel like I'm doing anything but making the same handful of reads over and over again, even against good players.
It's like I already know what's gonna happen and the best thing I can do is try to vary it up or make it flashy.

Also, as far as rolling goes for a mobility option, I just don't like it.
Every time I roll back, I feel like I only do it because I know I messed up my spacing and want a reset before my opponent gets the chance to capitalize on my mistake; I tend to only roll in situations where I don't feel I'm able to move any other way, like wifi.
I mean, if rolling everywhere is the developing meta or whatever (since it can be a really good option), then more power to it, but rolling a lot and dealing with people who roll a lot doesn't make for the best experience.
It almost makes me wonder how it'd be if they gave everyone anywhere from 15-20 frames for a roll, but took out the invincibility, that way you can't rely on rolling to save you all the time (or be your primary means of fighting someone).

There's a lot I want to address, but there's also a lot that's already been said as well as a lot people don't care to read.
It'd be nice to have reasonable grab range/sensible hitboxes back along with crouch cancel (dash).
That's really all I want out of this game; Brawl wasn't all that bad (I actually really like it) and they actually didn't need to do much to "fix" its more unpleasant aspects (in my opinion).
 

_A1

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
133
Location
NorCal
Why should people have to adapt or GIT GUD or even play Smash 4 if they don't like it?
 
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