The Art of Spotdodging

[NeighborhoodP]

Okay, I've learned one thing recently: Sheik's spot dodge is ridiculously broken. If you doubt this, just watch Drephen. If you want to be good with Sheik, start playing more like Drephen.

But that's an aside. The real point of this thread is finding the best times to use spot dodge. I used to spot dodge like crazy, but as I took on the path to getting good at the game, high level players ***** my **** for it and baited it out. So I basically took it totally out of my game. But now I'm good enough to use it properly, so it's time to incorporate it and hell, even downright spam it in certain spots.

I'd love to hear from chronic spot dodgers like Drephen or Tope -- I know you guys don't just randomly throw it out (for the most part).

I know the obvious time to use it is when you expect a grab, but when else? Anyone have the frames of data? I know spot dodge to dsmash is pretty fast, but exactly how fast is it? Any contributions are welcome.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Frame Data

Ground dodge
Invulnerable 2-15 out of 22

If you buffer frame perfect there's only 8 frames to hit her between 2 consecutive spot-dodges.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

This reminds me of this one thread where some guy like... watched Drephen's match and gave an analysis of how Drephen did stuff like spotdodge to throw off L-cancel timing, wavedash after dthrows to put him into better position for tech chasing and stuff like that, and then Drephen was like... I just dsmash/spotdodge/grab until it works.

Anyway, dsmash frames.

D Smash

Total: 49
Hit: 5-9, 16-19, 22-24
Charge frame: 2
Legs invincible: 5
IASA: 46

If you do the math, that means you have eleven frames of vulnerability between the spotdodge and the dsmash.

I spotdodge occasionally instead of shielding because it doesn't leave me stuck in a shield and I'm able to do anything out of it.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

iirc, sheik's spot dodge is the same as the majority of chars' spot dodges.

 

[KirbyKaze]

fox, falco, kirby, samus iirc, and some other people.

 

[otg]

fox, falco, kirby, samus iirc, and some other people.

The Mario's and luigi too I believe. Maybe Marth?

 

[KirbyKaze]

marth's is like 2-18 / 27 or something

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, Marth's is cruddy.

You could check Superdoodleman's site to see all the spotdodge frames, but I'm way too lazy to do that.

 

[KirbyKaze]

i just downloaded all of his info and went over it in my free time. i have no life. or friends.

i bet even m2k has a more active social life than me

 

[Nihonjin]

Okay, I've learned one thing recently: Sheik's spot dodge is ridiculously broken. If you doubt this, just watch Drephen. If you want to be good with Sheik, start playing more like Drephen.

lol.

But that's an aside. The real point of this thread is finding the best times to use spot dodge. I used to spot dodge like crazy, but as I took on the path to getting good at the game, high level players ***** my **** for it and baited it out. So I basically took it totally out of my game. But now I'm good enough to use it properly, so it's time to incorporate it and hell, even downright spam it in certain spots.

You used to spam it like crazy, then stopped spamming because it failed, now you want to spam it again?

Most of the time there are more effective ways to defend & counter rather than spotdodging. I don't see why you'd want to dive into it. But hey suit yourself.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

You used to spam it like crazy, then stopped spamming because it failed, now you want to spam it again?

uhh no.

The real point of this thread is finding the best times to use spot dodge.

if you watch drephen you would realize that he's not resorting to spot dodging just because he's pressured and it's a panic reaction like most players who use it. sometimes it is, i'm sure, but he uses it too well for it to be just that, and he's most definitely a thinking player. therefore it's not much of a leap of faith at all to assume he's doing it artfully, not spamming buffered spot dodges just because he's results oriented and it seems to work. maybe i'm giving him too much credit; he can come in and correct me if that's the case.

Most of the time there are more effective ways to defend & counter rather than spotdodging. I don't see why you'd want to dive into it. But hey suit yourself.

like what? melee is a game of reaction and habits. maybe everyone doesn't have amazing reflexes like yourself and can't just dash dance to a pivotoed ftilt or dash attack or w/e to do the "optimal" response but a spot dodge suffices just as well and leads to an opportunity to punish as well.

if there's one thing i've learned about melee it's that there are multiple responses to stuff and good players choose different things all the time, and it's often not a matter off what is better in a vacuum, but what fits into a player's style better than anything else. what they can do effectively and consistently trumps everything else.

iirc, sheik's spot dodge is the same as the majority of chars' spot dodges.

yes, in a vacuum. but sheik's dodge to dsmash or dodge to grab is more valuable in the sense that it's extremely hard to punish if done properly and naturally counters a lot of people's play styles. her grabs mean so much to her, more than any character except maybe falcon.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

...Ganondorf relies on grabs too...

 

[Bil]

IC's...and Mewtwo...also rely on grabs...greatly.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

why are people wasting their time with one-line responses to a throwaway part of the thread

i guess this is why people don't respond to irrelevant things in the first place?

the thread is for (hopefully) high-level discussion on sheik's superb spot dodge. that is what this board is about, right, strategic character discussion? dunno about you but i'm trying to get better

 

[Bil]

Hi guys, my name is NeighborhoodP and I'm a ****.

Now that thats over with, for frame perfect repeated spot dodges, just hold down on the Cstick while in your shield. This right here is a really nice piece of information, I use this alot with multiple characters, not to mention with Sheik its good for spotdodge -> grab wars with another Sheik or a Marth.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

no i'm not a ****, i'm just a student of the game and trying to get better. it was my fault for responding to that post in the first place, which was my point, but i was saying let's not care about irrelevant-to-strategic-discussion stuff and move on.

it's funny because i did that for fun in a couple of matches v mango, who usually ***** basic stuff like that, but it was surprisingly effective... hahaha, guess i'll start using it more vs everyone then.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

yes, in a vacuum. but sheik's dodge to dsmash or dodge to grab is more valuable in the sense that it's extremely hard to punish if done properly and naturally counters a lot of people's play styles. her grabs mean so much to her, more than any character except maybe falcon.

It's just as useful for any character that has a 7 frame grab (and/or a really fast close range attack) and a fast spot dodge (which is like half the cast, or even more).

Loads of characters rely on their grabs. This could be just as useful for a fox, for example.
I'm sure drephens repeated spot dodging has to do with drephens owns style rather then something character specific for sheik

Anyway I agree with amsah, if you used to do it alot and it didn't work why would you force yourself to do it again? Just b/c it works for tope and drephen doesn't mean it will work for you... develop your own playstyle, do what works for you

 

[soap]

drephen spams spotdodge with his luigi and fox in tourney to great effect to. i dont think its that great a tactic though , i think he just lacks the finesse to space stuff out, plus his style is to get in your face and force your hand, spacing is more of a defensive stance, so he just ends up spotdodging alot. But if you watch him play he ***** other peoples spotdodges all the time and kinda shows why its a bad strat, he just knows when to do it, hes the spotdodge connosseiur.

I know when hes gonna do it though lol, but i cant punish it without a sheik dsmash lol, he'll sidestep every ***** marth swing i throw out, every sword dance, anything, im like wtf i cannot time this.

personally, i think anytime u get stuck in your shield and are forced to spotdodge is a bad situation to be in when sheik can just space attacks. and rolling out of shield pressure seems more consistent in more situations. obviously spot dodge yields an instant reward though, i just use it in obvious situations. although i think spotdodge has like a two frame quicker startup than roll so u could potentially sidestep certain pressure strings that u couldnt roll out of.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Rolling is sooo easy to chase though...

Although spotdodges can get you punished too. Overall, though, I think spotdodges are safer than rolls. Plus, you stay close to them, so you don't have to go through the hassle of bogging though the mire of projectiles they may or may not be lobbing at you.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I really think excessive spot-dodge is only good vs Marth.

Some of his moves actually have lag (U-tilt, F-smash mainly) and can be punished from spot-dodges really hard.

Fox and Falco will just keep pillaring you honestly and not miss L-cancel if they're any good and being lagged in a Sheik ditto is really, really bad if the other guy is chain grabbing. Actually being lagged vs Sheik in a non-cg ditto is pretty bad too but that's besides the point.

 

[darkatma]

sheik dittos are dumb anyways

because real tourney matches involve chaingrabbing but m2k says no chaingrabbing in friendlies so I didn't know how to chaingrab hiroshi LMAO

 

[KirbyKaze]

because real tourney matches involve chaingrabbing but m2k says no chaingrabbing in friendlies so I didn't know how to chaingrab hiroshi LMAO

sheik cg is hard it's like

u-throw u-smash jab rest regrab

you gotta be pretty frame perfect with it though

 

[darkatma]

LOL more like, i didnt know how to run forward and regrab johns

note that i won anyways though, mute city and peach does wonders against sheiks

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Anyway I agree with amsah, if you used to do it alot and it didn't work why would you force yourself to do it again? Just b/c it works for tope and drephen doesn't mean it will work for you... develop your own playstyle, do what works for you

because i was bad and almost every move in melee has good situational use if you learn when to do it?

 

[Mew2King]

Dodge Ratings - Here's a list I made of everyone's dodge ratings, statistically proven with frames counts on the frames of the dodge that you're ALWAYS invincible to ALL attacks. The number on the left half of the fraction is the amount of frames you're actually dodging (in other words, how many frames you're invincible and can't be harmed) while the number on the right half of the fraction is the total time that the dodge lasts. The percent of the dodge that you're ALWAYS invincible is written in a percent, and a ..... means it's a repeating decimal. Note: almost all of the dodges start on frame 2, so in other words, for most of the dodges when you start them, you can only be hit the FIRST frame of the dodge. Some characters, like Captain Falcon and Zelda, start their invincible part of the dodge on the 3rd frame, and Bowser starts his on the 4th frame. Note that for 99% of attacks, Zelda is invincible for the 2nd frame + (but certain explosion moves can hit her on the 3rd frame of the move so it still counts as starting it on the 3rd frame)

---Go here for more information about dodging: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=493089#post493089

63.6363.....% or 14/22 - Dr. Mario / Falco / Fox / Kirby / Link / Luigi / Mario / Pichu / Pikachu / Samus / Sheik / Yoshi / Young Link This is 13 of the 26 characters; half the characters have the exact same dodge

62.962962.....% or 17/27 - Ice Climbers / Marth / Ness / Peach / Roy

59.459459.....% or 22/37 - DK

59.375% or 19/32 - Ganondorf

56.25% or 18/32 - Captain Falcon / Zelda

54.054054.....% or 20/37 - Mewtwo

51.88888.....% or 14/27 - Jigglypuff

50% or 21/42 - Bowser

34.375% or 11/32 - Mr. Game and Watch


http://hometown.aol.com/oovideogamegodoo/myhomepage/profile.html

 

[sKatZ]

who knows more about smash, M2k or Magus?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

That's... kinduva silly question. There's a finite amount of information out there, and most of it is hard numbers, so it's not necessarily true that one knows more than the other.