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Thanks for Playing 2 - July 20th, 2013 - Ijamsville, Maryland (A$, Star King, Nintendude, clubba!)

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
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San Francisco
Does anyone know if this will fly with Isai (The heart that pumps the blood of the 64 scene)?
Well he's flying to Japan for a single elim 4-stock tournament lol. Perhaps that speaks for itself.

Also, I really am listening to the feedback here guys. And with this past tournament I've started the experimentation way in advance of Apex. It's just hard to seriously consider feedback from those who are basing your arguments on theory without having experienced the ruleset for yourself. Those of you who attended: did 4-stocks really do anything detrimental to your tournament experience? Did it make anything better? Let me know from both a player's perspective and a spectator's perspective.
 

XKCP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
418
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
I'm already iffy about Apex and apex-like events, I'm not sure they're the best way to have 64 tourneys (even if they do get more nubbish entrants than 64-only tourneys). I'm not gonna skip out because of 4 stock vs 5, but I might if I was afraid that the people running apex were going to kill competition in order to have brawl players pick up 64 once a year. JUST TO CLARIFY

Nintendude is right about one thing, though: he and chain-ace have been running the tourneys. Peeps need to create and run good 64 tourneys if they don't like the way we slobber on random melee players' scrotums in order to get half an hour of stream time (and they shouldn't).
This is just a Louisiana thing: We ALWAYS have 64 at all of our tournaments because we know people will show up for them (since we basically revived it the last 3 years or so). The reason we always have one is because the TOs care about all 3 smash games and some of our TOs are 64 players (myself somewhat included). I even just started getting a nice little stream up and running on my laptop (after so many difficulties) so that we can get more videos of our tournaments out on the web. If only two people are providing major tournaments, some of us need to step up and run tournaments. I don't like spending too much time running tournaments so I let people who want to work with SmashCon usually do that stuff, but I've been working on livestreaming because I like doing THAT and it is another step we need in order to make our local tournaments bigger.
 

Shears

Smash Master
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Mar 13, 2008
Messages
3,146
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disproving indeterminism
A. this tournament's length is all my fault.
B. instead of using stocks, rock paper scissors, best of 3, winner advances. by my calculation each matchup will take about 30 seconds, so a 64 person bracket is 2^6, 6*30=180seconds+30seconds(assuming grand finals needs the extra set)=3.5 minutes. no time wasted picking characters, slashing stages, or camping. bing bang boom.
 

DMoogle

A$
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
2,366
Location
Northern VA, USA
4 stocks was way more fun and intense. If making the whole tournament too fast is an issue, then changing it to best 3 out of 5 for everything would be a better way to fix it.
 

Cobrevolution

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
3,178
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nj
The reason we get games cut from stream is that there isn't enough time. Cutting a stock is a step towards solving that issue. There's a whole lot of hyperbole going on in there that isn't worth dissecting and also you aren't taking into account all the down time in between games.
but mike, i've just shown you that the statement that 64 takes "too long" is bull****. it's the fastest moving game! if anything, to's should consider moving melee and brawl around to shorten them. why should we get the **** end of the stick? because melee/brawl are more popular? again, you aren't seeing the fair side of the issue.

as far as other people hosting events, i mean, sensei is hosting 64 at smashacre. at the tournament at rutgers march 9th i think, they had 64 available. the problem was nobody came, for one reason or another. here's the big problem - melee/brawl players (who also happen to be to's) have this bias against 64. it's always the same thing - "if the 64 community brings their own setups and gets people to come, we'll have it". that kid who ran the one at rutgers said, "you can ask one of the melee players for one of their tv's, but that isn't fair cuz they brought it to play melee".

and yet, it's always the 64 community that brings an excess of tv's. strife wanted chris and will's tv's to go to melee at zenith, i remember. and in maryland somebody took a tv off 64. but heaven help us if we take a tv off melee or brawl to play 64!


bracket pools would be great. or multiple rounds. i enjoyed pools at zenith, but to only get a 16 man bracket out of a 35 man group...it just seems ****ed up.

Well he's flying to Japan for a single elim 4-stock tournament lol. Perhaps that speaks for itself.
correct me if i am wrong but he was going to japan with his girlfriend regardless of whether or not he'd make the tournament. i recall him saying he'd probably miss it, but then found out it would coincide.

but he also flew to peru. and they play 5 stocks. and he's been at apex, all the way on the other side of the country, which is 5 stocks. so it's kinda arbitrary.

did 4-stocks really do anything detrimental to your tournament experience? Did it make anything better? Let me know from both a player's perspective and a spectator's perspective.
i would not blame my losses on 4 stocks - i got outplayed in both sets. as i said, it was a very enjoyable tournament. however, i was definitely out of my comfort zone, and the idea of having one less stock to work with stuck in the back of my mind. losing two stocks suddenly put me a lot closer to elimination than ever before. it didn't improve the experience by having shorter sets.
as a spectator, my opinion is moot and should not matter. i stand by that.

4 stocks was way more fun and intense. If making the whole tournament too fast is an issue, then changing it to best 3 out of 5 for everything would be a better way to fix it.
i feel like that's improper weighing, though. a first round match is not nearly as intense as winner's finals and they should not be weighed the same. ideally we'd have bo3, 5, and 7, but if everything becomes bo5, then grand finals should definitely become a bo7 set (or two). it's the biggest, most important match of the entire tournament, after all. however, i am not proposing that we move everything to bo5 and bo7. i am alright with bo3s and bo5s. just not with 4 stocks.

if more tournaments occur with 4 stock bo5s, i could provide my opinion on that.
 

SSB64-Jel

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
1,039
Location
Seattle, WA
Being reasonable would be to consult with the community before making decisions like this. For some reason Nintendude keeps thinking his lone opinion is always what's best for us. Pretty selfish.

Cater to your own community before trying to please everyone outside of it.

Like battlecattle, If Apex ends up being 4 stock despite the majority community being against it then I probably won't go.
Bllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhh

"Melee does 4 so it must be right"

"japan does 4 so it must be right"

Saying 5 stocks is an "outdated convention" is ****ing dumb. It's a meaningless statement. Almost as useless as saying something is correct because japan/melee does it.
some players may like 4 stocks, some may not from some of the reading I have done seems putting this to a vote would be best, If the vote says 4 stocks then it stays at 4 stocks, but if it says 5 then we go with 5. If a host is unwilling to do what a community wants you vote in a new host who is willing to keep a community together and really cares for the community and game. No one should make any type of major changes to any part of a major tournament like Apex with out at least putting it to a vote or unless they are the sole owner of the whole event, but putting it to a vote would show that they want see what the community thinks is best vs. what they want or others think is best. Just going off what they want would justify bad decision making and not really caring about what anyone says or wants.

In Nintendude's defense he is one of the best TO's I have seen and did run the last few Apex events on time and with out error.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
cobr when we have 1/3 of the entrants, why would we expect equal stream time? Equal and fair are not the same in this case. We only cover 1/3 of the venue fee of the other games, we're lucky that we don't get 1/3 the stream time. And again, that's what pools are for, to get the really good players, not get everyone who isn't a complete scrub into the bracket.

4 stocks worsened my tourney experience because I got to play less competitive smash, simple as that. Will it produce more upsets and therefore more excitement? Sure. Is that the goal of a competitive ruleset? Shouldn't be.
 

Karajan

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
519
1) If there is a gentleman's rule, pretty sure you can get most people to agree to play 5 stocks, **** the mods.

2) We really should be playing 6 stock, because it is the largest number where you see a symbol for all the stocks; once you get to seven it displays a symbol for the number, which isn't far to people who cant read or haven't learned how the arabic-indian numeral system works

Edit #1:

I'm already iffy about Apex and apex-like events, I'm not sure they're the best way to have 64 tourneys (even if they do get more nubbish entrants than 64-only tourneys). .
Pretty sure I can run a good tourny.
We should do 5 stock at apex, and if there are matches that need to be finished but the venue is getting shut down, anyone who wants can go back to my place in NJ and play their matches there.
 

Cobrevolution

Smash Master
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Feb 8, 2012
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nj
that's a good point, clubba - regarding covering less of the venue fee leading to us getting less stream time. i honestly hadn't considered that.

however, i do still feel like having top 4 on stream for 64 while everything else is top 6 is a bit of a snub. again, it's the general attitude towards 64, i feel; that of inferiority and thus less deserving of the kind of exposure the others get. i haven't really ever heard a TO state that less stream time is equal to venue fee/number of participants, though. so that might be the reason, it might not be.
 

DMoogle

A$
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Jan 28, 2008
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Northern VA, USA
i feel like that's improper weighing, though. a first round match is not nearly as intense as winner's finals and they should not be weighed the same. ideally we'd have bo3, 5, and 7, but if everything becomes bo5, then grand finals should definitely become a bo7 set (or two). it's the biggest, most important match of the entire tournament, after all. however, i am not proposing that we move everything to bo5 and bo7. i am alright with bo3s and bo5s. just not with 4 stocks.

if more tournaments occur with 4 stock bo5s, i could provide my opinion on that.
Best of 5 for everything except GF (best of 7) sounds perfect to me.
 

Sangoku

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 25, 2010
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Geneva, Switzerland
No items is an old convention that is holding back lots of new players. Every tourney should be item-on and anyone disagreeing will be infracted.

.
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
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May 19, 2009
Messages
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Chicago
good **** mixa

so yeah, axing hyrule saves us an assload of time even if people aren't camping on it, but we knew that anyways and that's not a great reason to ban a stage (well, it's not a terrible reason, but if we're willing to let tornados fly we should sure as **** not complain about an extra couple minutes)
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
that **** mixa did needs to be its own thread and get stickied.

do character breakdown next!
 

mixa

Banned via Warnings
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Jun 6, 2012
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Isle of ゆぅ
I picked PC
that was of the sets that I rewatched and
daaaaaaamn that PC match man, you were so close to a 4 stock comeback
and I really wanted to see your Pika vs Ruoka's Falcon on DL, which would be the next game I suppose.
 

Karajan

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
519
1) There are no videos of this
2) There is a good chance everyone actually played samus
3) and I heard some rumors that people were drinking
4) A KB player won and they played with a controller.
5) A$ lost to some random new player no one heard of

Hence, there is no way in hell this should count towards ELO rating
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
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May 19, 2009
Messages
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that was of the sets that I rewatched and
daaaaaaamn that PC match man, you were so close to a 4 stock comeback
and I really wanted to see your Pika vs Ruoka's Falcon on DL, which would be the next game I suppose.

I feel like I would've been given several kinds of business
 

breakthrough

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
304
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West Chester, PA
Those of you who attended: did 4-stocks really do anything detrimental to your tournament experience? Did it make anything better? Let me know from both a player's perspective and a spectator's perspective.
however, i was definitely out of my comfort zone, and the idea of having one less stock to work with stuck in the back of my mind. losing two stocks suddenly put me a lot closer to elimination than ever before. it didn't improve the experience by having shorter sets.
Cobr's post speaks for how I felt at the tournament. I'm so used to having that 5th stock to work with, and often that's when I'll have my best stock because I'm forced to play smart to take 2-3 stocks from my opponent. However, at the same time, I didn't go into the matches with the mindset that these are tournament matches that do matter somewhat, because it was my first tournament so far, so I didn't play as smart as I should have in some situations and ended up paying for it with a poor performance. /johns
 

B Link

Smash Lord
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Sep 26, 2007
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I like 5 stock matches -- they give me more time to get used to the match up.

Also, 4 stock falcon dittos would be lolz
 

mixa

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What would be the purpose of excluding Falcons? He's pretty much the most common character whenever Ash is not around to scare away all the Pikachus.
 

Nintendude

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Feb 23, 2006
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The purpose is just to see what the data looks like that way, since we all know that Falcon tends to be a big outlier in match length.
 

prisonchild

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May 8, 2012
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604
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Training Mode (or Toronto)
does anybody think changing the games to four stocks would change the overall outcome?

it would cut down tourney time and leave more time for friendlies :D

i'm positive if people try this for a tournament or two all the grumbling will end.




also, I feel nintendude's pain. I work at a soccer club and we organize a tournament every year for rep teams, and there are a bunch of factors that participants don't even think about. honestly nintendude has organized a bunch of tourneys and I trust his experience when it comes to the intricacies of running a tourney.




about the striking thing... imo it makes sense to pick your character and then strike the stage you DON'T want to play on (or don't want your opponent to play on). I think this way you start with an absolutely neutral stage, which makes sense to me.
 

clubbadubba

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Apr 27, 2011
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exclude kirby too then

Problem with "neutral" striking after character selection, is that you basically have to select someone who is small stage friendly, because if you pick someone who is easily gimped, your opponent just strikes hyrule and you're already at a disadvantage.
 

Nintendude

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I prefer to think of it as a character gaining a large advantage due to Hyrule rather than gaining a disadvantage due to having to play on a small stage. Small stage should be thought of as the default.
 

kys

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Aug 17, 2009
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World Traveler
Seems like there's a lot of fuss over 1 stock. The dude who said we should try it first is a wise dude. I guess I don't see what the big deal is if we keep 5 or go to 4. Whatevs.

Congo is the most balanced (read: competitively fair) stage in the game. It should be the starter.
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
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8,740
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Chicago
does anybody think changing the games to four stocks would change the overall outcome?

it would cut down tourney time and leave more time for friendlies :D

i'm positive if people try this for a tournament or two all the grumbling will end.

It's like you ds'd from life
 

thegreginator

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
372
Ok I just read this whole thread and there are a couple of things.

First, big props to mixa for putting together all that data. If I have time after work this week I'll take his spreadsheet and see what kind of cool outputs I can put together that can be useful for decision making. Data like this is instrumental in the time discussion (e.g., bo3 vs. bo5, 4 stocks vs. 5, etc).

4 stocks vs. 5
From what I've gathered the debate essentially comes down to this: does the time savings we'll get from moving to 4 stocks make up for the increase in variability? There is a pretty simple way to answer this. Look at the match length data and calculate how much longer a given tourney would take with 5 stocks vs. 4. Then poll the community (with votes visible) and see whether 5 stocks is overwhelmingly preferred. If 5 is the clear favorite and doesn't add much time, the decision should be obvious.

Of course, you could argue that Melee people complain that 64 takes too long, so even if everyone loves 5 and it doesn't add much time, we simply can't afford adding that small bit of extra time to the tournament. This is a legitimate argument since 64 has a much smaller following, share of venue fees, etc. Comparing 64 times to Melee times is counterproductive, as they probably "deserve" more time than us since they bring in more revenue. So then the question becomes: is there a way to make tournaments run faster other than moving to 4 stocks?

Set Length
There are a variety of formats possible here, but I think a key point that people in the "4 stocks with longer sets" camp are missing is that there will be more "dead weight" time with more sets instead of stocks. It only takes 10 seconds for Isai to take out that 5th stock on some random noob, but it takes a hell of a lot longer for him to 4-stock that noob an extra time for a 3-0 set rather than a 2-0 set. There is also a deceptively huge amount of time in character select screens, thinking about matchups, counterpicking, etc. To me, more bo5's gives a high loss of efficiency for minimal benefit. Bo3 is right in the sweet spot. Again, though, there should be a poll made about this rather than relying on the most vocal members' opinions.

Tournament Logistics
I'm kind of surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet, because in my opinion FAR more time could be saved by running the tournament more efficiently than any change in stocks or set length. I want to pause here and give a big shoutout to Nintendude and chain-ace, because I think they are phenomenal tournament organizers and are almost single-handedly responsible for getting us some awesome tourneys. The thing that tends to make tournaments run on way longer than necessary, in my opinion, is that people just don't ****ing play their matches. My first "big" tournament was Zenith, and I found it pretty frustrating that I would have a tourney match to play and my opponent would be nowhere to be found. The mentality at Zenith was that there was absolutely no rush and tourney matches were of secondary importance to going to get food or watching some other matches or whatever. I like playing friendlies as much as the next guy, but if the main constraint is time then people should focus more on playing their matches in a timely manner. There is more than enough time for friendlies before, during, and after the tourney if people just prioritize properly. And as others have echoed, it would also be really helpful if people would step up and help the TO's communicate and enforce which matches need to be played when. Obviously they have a lot on their plate so people need to take it upon themselves to proactively look at the bracket and find their opponent.

Community vs. TOs (or, Community vs. Nintendude)
I'm debating not including this section because I feel it could derail the important discussion of the above 3 points, so please take this with a grain of salt. I understand the popular frustration with Nintendude seeming to ignore the wishes of the community, but the reality is that he is faced with political pressure that we seem to ignore or take for granted. If people running the venue say that 64 needs to be shorter, than his hands are kinda tied. We should be thinking of productive ways to make that happen rather than jumping down his throat and attacking him personally. Maybe that is why he tends to rely less on others' opinions when he makes his decisions. I think it's pretty ridiculous to call someone "selfish" that has invested so much of his time helping 64. Nintendude though, it's also a two-way street. If the data and community opinion don't support changing to 4 stocks, for example, we should be looking at other ways to make the tourneys run faster (if necessary).
 

SheerMadness

Smash Master
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Aug 18, 2005
Messages
4,781
I'm extremely skeptical of "political pressure" having any involvement in this. Until Alex Strife comes in here and says we need to play with 4 stock due to time constraints I won't believe it. I seriously doubt he gives a crap how many stocks we play with. We have 3 days to complete our event and we usually finish it less than 1 and 1/2.

There certainly was no political pressure with the keyboard legality issue. Yet Nintendude did the EXACT same thing. Made the decision without giving the community an opportunity to voice their opinion.

He has a history of going rogue and making decisions without caring about the community's opinion. And his reasoning is always because he thinks his opinion is what's better for our community. He's saying his opinion is more important than ours. That's selfish IMO.
 
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