Tell Me Why YOUR Main is Underrated or Viable

[Hocaro]

I wouldn't necessarily say Peach is underrated. I haven't seen too many creative Sm4sh peach vs in the tournament scene although there are a few notable players. I find she can really hold her own against higher tier characters that utilize speedy attacks through defensive mind games and waiting for an opening, and I've noticed that she can be a pain to knock off stage with certain characters' side smashes even at >100%. Her dress must catch air or somethin'.

 

[TurboLink]

Link is not underrated because he's the exact opposite of what you need to be to be top tier: slow. Unless you have some dumb gimmick attached to you.

Dash speed? Slow.

Frame data? Slow and laggy.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

V
I don't see Ness as a tier *****
His back throw is just too strong in my opinion. If you think of the most powerful tool Ness has, you will think of his back throw. Playing to not be grabbed at 70-80 percent is annoying.
I am glad that Ness is good now. I love seeing previously low tier characters, (Ness, Roy, etc...) become better in later smash games. I hate characters that are always high tiered. (COUGH COUGH)

Shiek was awful in Brawl, that's not very fair to say. hehehehehehehehe

Anyways, I think Falco is about right where he is in his popularity. He still has solid edgeguarding tools, a strong moveset, and with his buffed aerials and up-smash he can actually rack up the percent much better than the original Falco. He just has trouble getting in, and with his laser game he can't really force anyone to approach like he used to. He's "okay" and I like the he brings the hype.
Viable? Maybe, the only Falcos I could see getting top 8 in a high profile tourney would be like Cyro or Ffamran, otherwise I dont see it.....
He has many things that hold him back, things I wont complain about today.

 

[Mario766]

D-Throw into up-b is actually guranteed for a while. The character has to be able to DI very quickly and air dodge. At mid percents it is very hard to DI away.

Sounds like a terrible combo when you can get mix-ups like down throw jab f-tilt which can work dependent on DI and does a lot more and puts your opponent in a worse situation.

 

[neohopeSTF]

V
I don't see Ness as a tier *****
His back throw is just too strong in my opinion. If you think of the most powerful tool Ness has, you will think of his back throw. Playing to not be grabbed at 70-80 percent is annoying.
I am glad that Ness is good now. I love seeing previously low tier characters, (Ness, Roy, etc...) become better in later smash games. I hate characters that are always high tiered. (COUGH COUGH)

shiek isn't top tier in brawl

 

[Wintropy]

Pit is fine. Solid low high-tier, versatile moveset, decent tech for any situation, free of any distinct strengths or weaknesses - that's okay with me!

 

[HFlash]

V
I don't see Ness as a tier *****
His back throw is just too strong in my opinion. If you think of the most powerful tool Ness has, you will think of his back throw. Playing to not be grabbed at 70-80 percent is annoying.
I am glad that Ness is good now. I love seeing previously low tier characters, (Ness, Roy, etc...) become better in later smash games. I hate characters that are always high tiered. (COUGH COUGH)

Umm did you forget that this game existed?

 

[LRodC]

I forget, aside from the addition of Bouncing Fish, what makes Sheik that much better in Smash 4 compared to Brawl? Is it the combo potential?

 

[Xeze]

I forget, aside from the addition of Bouncing Fish, what makes Sheik that much better in Smash 4 compared to Brawl? Is it the combo potential?

MK not being broken and the different game engine in general.

 

[LRodC]

MK not being broken and the different game engine in general.

Needles and forward air were functionally the same though to my knowledge (maybe forward air didn't link together as well due to the hitstun canceling? No idea), and those are two major things for Sheik that polarize her match ups. What made them not broken in Brawl? "Meta Knight" alone doesn't really answer that.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Needles and forward air were functionally the same though to my knowledge (maybe forward air didn't link together as well due to the hitstun canceling? No idea), and those are two major things for Sheik that polarize her match ups. What made them not broken in Brawl? "Meta Knight" alone doesn't really answer that.

brawl fair is nothing like smash 4 fair, vanish was worse, poor momentum cancelling, hard time killing, can get juggled and chain grabbed easy. you get the picture.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

Doesn't Luma just absorb the arrows and other projectiles Link uses to wall people out though?

SH arrows go over Luma.
I mainly use bombs though. When she absorbs, it just brings them to her feet. By then they're about to blow. Soft throw bombs works really well. Also links zair goes over luma, and out ranges all of her moves (if luma is next to her). Zair drop bombs are the bees knees vs rosa/luma. Also links utilt, ftilt, dsmash are all fairly easy to land, and kill her very early. Links uair is the destroyer in that MU though.
Oh, and his grab has enough range to pull her away from luma, you you can safely do your grab combo .

Link is not underrated because he's the exact opposite of what you need to be to be top tier: slow. Unless you have some dumb gimmick attached to you.

Dash speed? Slow.

Frame data? Slow and laggy.

Link is just a hard character to master, friend. His dash speed is slow, but he is a wall.

 

[RayNoire]

My main is overrated if anything.

"I think I faced this character once on FG? Uh...let's say mid tier. That sounds right."

 

[Pink'd]

EDIT:

TL;DR: Falco is gud. And Kirby. But not Lil Mac and Cheese because he sucks and we all laugh at him like hahahahaha

:

I may not be the greatest genius, or the best person to analyze the competitive meta properly, but I think Falco is actually pretty solid. (inb4 bias)

Pros: Can down-throw into dash attack, jumping nair, jumping forward air, reverse bair, sometimes upair, and jump-canceled upsmash at 0%. Can chain nair into literally anything ever. Offstage Falco Phantasm reliably spikes, and so does dair in the recent updates. If you hit someone who's grounded with dair, the spike is un-techable and they pop up, allowing for free followups. Jab is hard to escape from, can interrupt fairly well. Lasers can sometimes snipe an opponent's recovery, and some people simply refuse to shield them properly (or cannot for some reason). Can travel under Omega-Form stages, which is fun to do on For Glory to annoy people. Falco can easily return to the stage if he's being edgeguarded at the ledge by walljumping and side-b-ing through the opponent. Has an offensive reflector, which no one else has. (?) HAS A DANG GOOD WALL JUMP THAT YOU CAN USE TO ESCAPE THE DEPTHS OF HELL WITH IF YOU MISS THE LEDGE WITH YOUR SIDE-B, WHICH YOU ARE GOING TO DO A WHOLE LOT. Also, while we're on this, SIDE-B CAN BE CANCELED INTO UP-B IN THIS GAME.

Cons: TOO F***ING SLOW. LASERS ARE ALSO TOO SLOW. Lasers can zone, but not very well whatsoever. Only has two approaches, short hop nair and short hop reverse bair. (Is this a con, though? Because I don't actually know. Might be good lol.) Up-B is easily gimped (?), NOTHING IS SAFE ON SHIELD, and he's TOO SLOW. SAMURAI PLZ FIX.

Honestly, the only in-depth review of my main is the one above. Too tired/lazy to put a lot off effort into the other ones below.

:

don't even get me started.

Pros: Super armor, insane knockback, insane damage, insane priority, really fast. Down tilt is a combo starter. KO Punch is almost always a kill move. Has a counter that can aid in getting back to the stage. DID I MENTION LITTLE MAC HAS THE BEST WALLJUMP IN THE GAME?! CAUSE HE DOES. ALSO I LIKE USING CAPS LOCK, DON'T JUDGE ME. Almost nobody (mostly not a biased statement, just repeating what I've heard) knows how to fight a really good Little Mac, especially the ones that confound you with aerials. Has 16 playable skins--that's gotta count for something, right?

Cons: i am dead because no recovery i am also dead because no recovery and don't forget that i have absolutely no recovery whatsoever

also no good approaches, bad aerials, no aerial momentum, can get grabbed once and extremely easily gimped at the edge by almost anything, and his snes little mac skin looks like dog dung, but none of that is as important as having terrrrrible recovery.

:

Pros: Kirbycide is fun, and you can usually make it back to the stage with your six jumps. Has six jumps. Nair has good priority. Down-b breaks shields and causes good damage, when you can land it. Dair can be easily used to gimp recoveries. Up-B can spike at the ledge, and is generally good all around (except for grabbing ledges in reverse). Forward throw is a combo starter. Hammer can be charged to almost OHKO levels. NEUTRAL B COPIES OPPONENT'S NEUTRAL B, TECHNICALLY MAKING KIRBY THE MOST VERSATILE CHARACTER IN THE GAME. Looks cute in each and every one of his Copy hats, except ZSS's because it looks stupidly creepy. jk, all hats are perfection.

Cons: No approaches except for dair and jumping inhale (AGAIN, is two approach options considered good?). Hammer is slowly and virtually useless except when the opponent is caught off guard and/or after a shield break. YOU HAVE TO TAUNT TO GET RID OF A KIRBY COPY HAT. HOW STUPID IS THAT? I KNOW IT'S IN EVERY GAME, AND I REALLY LIKE IT, BUT FROM AN OBJECTIVE STAND POINT, IT'S DANGEROUS. PLUS, IN FOR GLORY, YOU CAN ONLY TAUNT FOUR (?) TIMES TOTAL, ONE FOR EACH OF YOUR STOCKS AND ONE FOR AN OPPONENT'S STOCK. AM I USING TOO MUCH CAPS LOCK? YES. YES I AM.

inb4 ninja'd

 

[wizrad]

My main? Mii Brawler? He's uh… kinda banned… but when he isn't, people seem to think he's broken, because they get grabbed at the ledge, don't DI correctly, and thus die to a fair > fair > Helicopter Kick combo at 40%. They also conveniently forget that he has no real kill options after about 100%, depending on the character. Also forgotten is his nonexistent range. And his abysmal vertical recovery. And his bad neutral game. Basically, some people have thought he was top 3 in the game or Brawl MK broken when he might not even be top 10.

 

[Wintermelon43]

EDIT:

TL;DR: Falco is gud. And Kirby. But not Lil Mac and Cheese because he sucks and we all laugh at him like hahahahaha

:

I may not be the greatest genius, or the best person to analyze the competitive meta properly, but I think Falco is actually pretty solid. (inb4 bias)

Pros: Can down-throw into dash attack, jumping nair, jumping forward air, reverse bair, sometimes upair, and jump-canceled upsmash at 0%. Can chain nair into literally anything ever. Offstage Falco Phantasm reliably spikes, and so does dair in the recent updates. If you hit someone who's grounded with dair, the spike is un-techable and they pop up, allowing for free followups. Jab is hard to escape from, can interrupt fairly well. Lasers can sometimes snipe an opponent's recovery, and some people simply refuse to shield them properly (or cannot for some reason). Can travel under Omega-Form stages, which is fun to do on For Glory to annoy people. Falco can easily return to the stage if he's being edgeguarded at the ledge by walljumping and side-b-ing through the opponent. Has an offensive reflector, which no one else has. (?) HAS A DANG GOOD WALL JUMP THAT YOU CAN USE TO ESCAPE THE DEPTHS OF HELL WITH IF YOU MISS THE LEDGE WITH YOUR SIDE-B, WHICH YOU ARE GOING TO DO A WHOLE LOT. Also, while we're on this, SIDE-B CAN BE CANCELED INTO UP-B IN THIS GAME.

Cons: TOO F***ING SLOW. LASERS ARE ALSO TOO SLOW. Lasers can zone, but not very well whatsoever. Only has two approaches, short hop nair and short hop reverse bair. (Is this a con, though? Because I don't actually know. Might be good lol.) Up-B is easily gimped (?), NOTHING IS SAFE ON SHIELD, and he's TOO SLOW. SAMURAI PLZ FIX.

Honestly, the only in-depth review of my main is the one above. Too tired/lazy to put a lot off effort into the other ones below.

:

don't even get me started.

Pros: Super armor, insane knockback, insane damage, insane priority, really fast. Down tilt is a combo starter. KO Punch is almost always a kill move. Has a counter that can aid in getting back to the stage. DID I MENTION LITTLE MAC HAS THE BEST WALLJUMP IN THE GAME?! CAUSE HE DOES. ALSO I LIKE USING CAPS LOCK, DON'T JUDGE ME. Almost nobody (mostly not a biased statement, just repeating what I've heard) knows how to fight a really good Little Mac, especially the ones that confound you with aerials. Has 16 playable skins--that's gotta count for something, right?

Cons: i am dead because no recovery i am also dead because no recovery and don't forget that i have absolutely no recovery whatsoever

also no good approaches, bad aerials, no aerial momentum, can get grabbed once and extremely easily gimped at the edge by almost anything, and his snes little mac skin looks like dog dung, but none of that is as important as having terrrrrible recovery.

:

Pros: Kirbycide is fun, and you can usually make it back to the stage with your six jumps. Has six jumps. Nair has good priority. Down-b breaks shields and causes good damage, when you can land it. Dair can be easily used to gimp recoveries. Up-B can spike at the ledge, and is generally good all around (except for grabbing ledges in reverse). Forward throw is a combo starter. Hammer can be charged to almost OHKO levels. NEUTRAL B COPIES OPPONENT'S NEUTRAL B, TECHNICALLY MAKING KIRBY THE MOST VERSATILE CHARACTER IN THE GAME. Looks cute in each and every one of his Copy hats, except ZSS's because it looks stupidly creepy. jk, all hats are perfection.

Cons: No approaches except for dair and jumping inhale (AGAIN, is two approach options considered good?). Hammer is slowly and virtually useless except when the opponent is caught off guard and/or after a shield break. YOU HAVE TO TAUNT TO GET RID OF A KIRBY COPY HAT. HOW STUPID IS THAT? I KNOW IT'S IN EVERY GAME, AND I REALLY LIKE IT, BUT FROM AN OBJECTIVE STAND POINT, IT'S DANGEROUS. PLUS, IN FOR GLORY, YOU CAN ONLY TAUNT FOUR (?) TIMES TOTAL, ONE FOR EACH OF YOUR STOCKS AND ONE FOR AN OPPONENT'S STOCK. AM I USING TOO MUCH CAPS LOCK? YES. YES I AM.

inb4 ninja'd

Dair is his only approach? Who told you that? Kirby can approach with his down air, forward air, back air, neutral air, and possibly up air. Yes, his approach sucks, but he doesn't have to use just dair customs off. And why would you need to remove your copy ability before he's KOed? And what else do you think he could do to remove his copy ability?

 

[Turrin]

I think the public opinion on Fox is the most accurate out of Sm4sh's entire cast. I think most "low tier" characters have way more potential than people think, but I also don't think really high characters like Shiek and Luigi are as amazing as people believe. Fox is pretty much agreed to be top ten, because:

Pros:
- He's so freaking fast
- he will take you from 0-50 in one combo
- He's SO freaking fast
- The up-air does more damage than some of his smash attacks
- Anti-spam reflector
- Every kind of kill setup ever
- Did I mention he's freaking FAST

Cons:
- Dies pretty early
- Gets combo'd because fast falling (I really can't argue with this though, in most cases he combos harder than he gets combo'd)
- Linear recovery (this is actually pretty easy to work around b/c shine stalls)

So yeah. Fox is good and people know it. One of the bigger reasons I like him though is because he's a top character that doesn't get hate for being that top character, like Shiek/Luigi/Diddy/Ness.

 

[TurboLink]

SH arrows go over Luma.
I mainly use bombs though. When she absorbs, it just brings them to her feet. By then they're about to blow. Soft throw bombs works really well. Also links zair goes over luma, and out ranges all of her moves (if luma is next to her). Zair drop bombs are the bees knees vs rosa/luma. Also links utilt, ftilt, dsmash are all fairly easy to land, and kill her very early. Links uair is the destroyer in that MU though.
Oh, and his grab has enough range to pull her away from luma, you you can safely do your grab combo .


Link is just a hard character to master, friend. His dash speed is slow, but he is a wall.

You think I don't know that?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Samus may very well be the worst character for basic play and good character for advanced.

The reason is that Samus has the most damaging true combos and best tech chases in the game, avoids being comboed herself by being floaty, and is extremely heavy.
You have to work around otherwise crippling basic disadvantages, her roll, shield grab, low percent jab failure.
The roll you need to learn to reflexively short-hop-airdodge, which is actually a very mobile offensive way of dodging.
The shield grab, you must learn and have the timings to power-shield to get the most mileage out of your shield and learn all your out-of-shield options (up-B in particular).
The low percent jab failure is just another indication of the narrow-range of her combos, which need to be understood in other to maximize the character's strengths.

A lot of people don't realize that Samus can kill in 2-3 hits. She really needs very few hit confirms to deal ungodly amounts of damage. I will be making a video on it at some point in the future.
Right now we're hoping for a patch that brings some resolution to some of the basic play problems.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

You think I don't know that?

Calm down big guy

 

[Browny]

Mewtwo is underrated by the vast majority of players who dont understand the importance of having multiple options. You can have a high tier character with few options, but those options are ridiculously strong such as Luigi or you can have a lot of options but none are particularly devastating like Pikachu.

Mewtwo has an unusual combination of moves that no other character has and with it, gives him multiple options to combat the enemies options, land/recover and KO.

With a command grab, high-priority projectile, safe-on-block poke and reflector this gives him 2 answers to any approach.

Enemy approaching with an aerial? confusion and shadowball beat it
Enemy throwing projectiles? reflect them or just outright beat it with shadowball
Enemy playing footsies? confusion and dtilt
Enemy trying to dash in? shadowball and dtilt

When it comes to recovering, he has a b-reverse, a wavebounce AND the sideb hop. Only one other character in the game, as far as I know, has this many aerial mixups when recovering or landing and that diddy kong. Having so many options makes it extremely difficult for the enemy to edgeguard or punish.

Then we come to getting the KO and once again, Mewtwo has more options than anyone in the game. Packing the second strongest kill throw behind Ness and the 4th strongest bthrow, all smashes are very powerful, a spike, reflector and projectile gives him 5 different strong KO move types.

To have so many options in neutral, recovering and getting a KO cant be overlooked. Of course out of all of those options, its fair to say that all of them combined arent as good as sheiks fair. His options arent amazing, but he has an answer to everything. The skill is in choosing the right one for each situation.

And one more thing, people say he is bad because he has no throw combos. His fthrow is now the strongest in the game, dealing 13% and refreshing moves along with it. 13% is more than some characters throw combos or just combos in general. Honestly some people freak out over not being able to do dthrow uair which for a lot of characters doesnt even do that much damage. Even Ikes dthrow-fair combo only does 15% and diddys throw combos only do about 17-19%. Suddenly having a 13% fthrow doesnt seem so bad?

 

[Mario766]

I'd check your numbers.

Ike's throw combos do 19-21 and lead into other options against heavies and give stage control on anything else.

Doing 12 damage is COOL but you don't get anything ebsides that. Compared to characters who get combo throws that's very weak. Falcon gets 18-19 damage off his throws. Luigi gets guaranteed aerials when his do more damage than most of the cast. Even someone like Charizard now gets throw combos that do 17+. It makes your grab reward pale compared to others when grab is such a strong tool because of how strong shield is.

 

[DunnoBro]

Dair is his only approach? Who told you that? Kirby can approach with his down air, forward air, back air, neutral air, and possibly up air. Yes, his approach sucks, but he doesn't have to use just dair customs off. And why would you need to remove your copy ability before he's KOed? And what else do you think he could do to remove his copy ability?

Those other options are asking to get stuffed/shield grabbed. Dair also sets up better, it is his main approach and anything else is a mix-up/punish.

 

[DynamicSmasher]

I think smash 4 doctor mario is fine where he is: he may have one of the strongest punish games in this iteration of smash, and share much of his frame data with mario, the original super combo brother, but,(especially if you can't mash B quickly enough), his recovery is baaad. So is his approach, having speed less than a certain regal penguin does the good doctor no favors, and being on the side of a fast-faller only worsens his disadvantaged state. Also, Ryu pretty much does what the good doctor does, but better in many ways... though, due to lack of good doctor mario(and Ryu) players, I can't say for sure yet.

 

[Browny]

I'd check your numbers.

Ike's throw combos do 19-21 and lead into other options against heavies and give stage control on anything else.

Doing 12 damage is COOL but you don't get anything ebsides that. Compared to characters who get combo throws that's very weak. Falcon gets 18-19 damage off his throws. Luigi gets guaranteed aerials when his do more damage than most of the cast. Even someone like Charizard now gets throw combos that do 17+. It makes your grab reward pale compared to others when grab is such a strong tool because of how strong shield is.

Sorry I didnt see Ikes uthrow has 2 separate parts, I was going off his frame/attack data which said 4-5, but theres 2 hits of it.

My point stands though because many characters lose those combos at higher %'s while Mewtwos always does 13% and it stales very slowly thanks for the multiple hits of the move, it actually does 14% (fresh) twice in a row before staling down to 12%.

Lets say in any given match, Ike lands 5 grabs at 0, 25, 50, 75 and 100 on a mid-weight.

He is doing 19%, 19%, 19%, 7%, 7% since he loses the combo at 75 and higher. Factoring in stale moves, this actually does 73% in 5 grabs. In 5 grabs, mewtwo is doing 56%.

Just look at it that way, youve got a character who supposedly gets a lot of damage from grab combos doing 73% while someone that supposedly has no combos doing 56% in the same space of time. That is only 24% less.

Charizard similarly loses his combo at above mid %, in 5 grabs he manages to deal 66%.

Thats whats so insane that people dont realise when they underrate mewtwo.

[Character does 66% from throw combos] omg this character is buffed to hell, ultimate grab rewards
[Character does 56% from throws] weak throws, poor grab reward

Seriously wut.

 

[LRodC]

Sorry I didnt see Ikes uthrow has 2 separate parts, I was going off his frame/attack data which said 4-5, but theres 2 hits of it.

My point stands though because many characters lose those combos at higher %'s while Mewtwos always does 13% and it stales very slowly thanks for the multiple hits of the move, it actually does 14% (fresh) twice in a row before staling down to 12%.

Lets say in any given match, Ike lands 5 grabs at 0, 25, 50, 75 and 100 on a mid-weight.

He is doing 19%, 19%, 19%, 7%, 7% since he loses the combo at 75 and higher. Factoring in stale moves, this actually does 73% in 5 grabs. In 5 grabs, mewtwo is doing 56%.

Just look at it that way, youve got a character who supposedly gets a lot of damage from grab combos doing 73% while someone that supposedly has no combos doing 56% in the same space of time. That is only 24% less.

Charizard similarly loses his combo at above mid %, in 5 grabs he manages to deal 66%.

Thats whats so insane that people dont realise when they underrate mewtwo.

[Character does 66% from throw combos] omg this character is buffed to hell, ultimate grab rewards
[Character does 56% from throws] weak throws, poor grab reward

Seriously wut.

I definitely agree that forward throw is underrated. A nearly guaranteed 13% at all percent ranges is a really nice option to have. However, think how scary Mewtwo's throws would be if he had an early percent guaranteed combo into up smash, forward air, or neutral air. His early grab reward would be incredibly buffed, and his damage racking with forward throw once the combos stop reliably working would still be perfectly intact. With that, his grab game could potentially be near the top of the cast along with Charizard (although not quite Luigi level) and would give him a lot more options to rack up damage and keep the opponent guessing.

Imagine this scenario with a combo down throw (which would likely have its damage nerfed to 7 since it will be a combo throw) and a buffed neutral air that always puts your opponents in the same position:

You grab, do a down throw, go straight into neutral air which would always sends the opponent a certain way depending on your position, and then you use forward air. You just did 33% in a single grab, possibly 45-46% (not guaranteed) if you follow that up with a second forward air. Even without a neutral air that does this, you still did 19%, which is more than 13%. Best of all, you still have the forward throw options for later percents, and when you get to kill range, you always have back throw and up throw to finish the stock. You still also can use down throw for it's current purpose to put opponents in a bad position for an up smash or shadow ball as you can right now. It would be absolutely insane, and it would definitely balance him for the better.

Regardless of whether or not Mewtwo gets reward from his grabs now (he does, but it could still be improved with down throw), this would help Mewtwo insanely, which is why people want it so much. Having an improved down throw combo game would most definitely see Mewtwo rise up the tier list a lot alone and would make a ton of sense for the character plus make him way scarier to fight.

However, let's get to reality. Mewtwo's grab options aren't too bad either. I covered forward throw already, up throw is a great kill throw, and back throw is great for throwing opponents off the stage to either kill them, gimp them, or get them out of the way so you can charge shadow ball. Down Throw forces a 50/50 and good players will condition opponents to do certain things out of it and fall for shadow balls or up smashes. His grab game right now isn't bad by any means, but improvements would be a nice addition.

 

[Mario766]

Ike gets combos till almost 100 at 75 without rage Ike combos into fair still on midweights. The numbers get more skewed.

 

[Infinite901]

No, Jigglypuff sucks pretty bad. She's not the absolute worst, but I'd probably say she's bottom 10.

Mega Man and Game and Watch though... yeah, I'd say they are. It seems like people often forget that Ninjalink's MM took 13th at Apex, and Game and Watch definitely isn't the low tier people seem to think of him.

 

[LRodC]

No, Jigglypuff sucks pretty bad. She's not the absolute worst, but I'd probably say she's bottom 10.

Mega Man and Game and Watch though... yeah, I'd say they are. It seems like people often forget that Ninjalink's MM took 13th at Apex, and Game and Watch definitely isn't the low tier people seem to think of him.

Why do you think Jiggs is bad? I always considered her about middle of the pack. It can't just be the light weight.

 

[Infinite901]

Why do you think Jiggs is bad? I always considered her about middle of the pack. It can't just be the light weight.

Lightest character in the game, 2nd slowest character in the game, lackluster grab range, barely any range on her attacks, no up-b makes for easy gimping is some cases, no follow up out of any throws (except for the occasional air-dodge read on d-throw) none of her moves are safe on shield (except for a perfectly spaced bair or dair), Sing sucks, down smash sucks, Rollout won't hit anyone playing any of the top tiers except Falcon or Sonic, and even that's risky and situational, she dies if her shield breaks, she gets wrecked by disjoints, she can't deal with super armor, she has a hard time with large projectiles (Aura Sphere, Charge Shot, Hadoken, etc.), her specials and grounded moves almost all have significant endlag, her dair has significant landing lag, because she's has to be in the air to have mobility she gets mostly beaten out by shields, she has some arguably bad matchups with some low/bottom tier characters (Zelda, Lucina, Mewtwo, Marth if he's still low) no projectiles, some stuff that made her Top in Melee (limited-use airdodges, edgehogging, ledge invincibility) are gone, many of her combos can be airdodged and/or DIed, her edgeguarding relies on reading an airdodge, rage ruins her, if you don't land a Rest or a gimp you'll be killing very late (and then dealing with Rage), a successful Rest can still be punished if it's a blast KO, I bet there's more I'm forgetting.

Her upsides... she can duck a lot of stuff. Rest is good. Her dash attack has a trample effect. Nair is nice. Pound shuts down aggressive approaches. Not exactly a whole lot to say....

 

[san.]

Sorry I didnt see Ikes uthrow has 2 separate parts, I was going off his frame/attack data which said 4-5, but theres 2 hits of it.

My point stands though because many characters lose those combos at higher %'s while Mewtwos always does 13% and it stales very slowly thanks for the multiple hits of the move, it actually does 14% (fresh) twice in a row before staling down to 12%.

Lets say in any given match, Ike lands 5 grabs at 0, 25, 50, 75 and 100 on a mid-weight.

He is doing 19%, 19%, 19%, 7%, 7% since he loses the combo at 75 and higher. Factoring in stale moves, this actually does 73% in 5 grabs. In 5 grabs, mewtwo is doing 56%.

Just look at it that way, youve got a character who supposedly gets a lot of damage from grab combos doing 73% while someone that supposedly has no combos doing 56% in the same space of time. That is only 24% less.

Charizard similarly loses his combo at above mid %, in 5 grabs he manages to deal 66%.

Thats whats so insane that people dont realise when they underrate mewtwo.

[Character does 66% from throw combos] omg this character is buffed to hell, ultimate grab rewards
[Character does 56% from throws] weak throws, poor grab reward

Seriously wut.

Ike gets a footstool from his first grab, so that's a variable 19-40+ true combo (max I've gotten on a person is 73%, but usually around 40 something). Even without that, there's some 30% combos with platforms. Add in string potential and it's more than that.

Uthrow->fair works until 70 something with mid rage on floaties, but on regular characters, expect 90+ with moderate rage and 105+ with no rage. Increase those numbers depending on how staled uthrow is as well. Rage uthrow is tough to predict when the combo period ends.

 

[Funkermonster]

Mega Man definitely is underrated imo, and I personally view him as low high tier. There aren't too many big names playing him besides Ninjalink, Daiki (I think that's what his name was?), and Zucco; and I think many people gravitate away from him since he's soooo difficult to play. Nevertheless in exchange for a weak up close game, low damage output, and lackluster kill moves; he's arguably got one of the strongest zoning and neutral games, a moveset that's almost entirely disjointed, a strong offstage game & recovery, and a highly disruptive moveset to condition opponents. Aside from Sheik, Falcon, and maybe Mario; I find that we don't have many MUs that are particularly nasty and I think we do fine or great vs some of the high tiers, top tiers even.

We definitely beat and if you consider him high tier,
I'm uncertain, but I think we are ok or mostly even with too (leaning just barely to Rosalina's favor though, but barely is the key word here).

We have some bad MUs here and there, but I think the only horrible ones are Falcon, Shiek, and Mario. Everyone else is managable and I think this character is being slept on, overall.

This is speaking without customs though, with customs there is Dong Cyclone tho....

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

I think Robin's criminally underrated, many people place him/her smack-dab in the middle of mid-tier but I attest that no, that's too low. The problem I think lies in the way the community is conceptualizing the game. Frame data and combos are still super important (and Robin actually has those in useful quantities by the by), but the area where Robin really shines is the capacity to capitalize on reading the opponent, a clear emphasis for this game particularly, due to its buffed shielding mechanics.

That might seem kind of dumb at first, but hear me out for a second. Obviously when talking about character ratings you have to keep in mind characters in context; just because one character is good at (and indeed, seems built around) capitalizing on good reads doesn't necessarily mean that they're any better at doing that than the current favorites for top tier. Sheik and ZSS both have crazy mad punish games and combos that are super damaging and super rewarding, dealing upwards of 2 billion percent converted off of one good read, give or take 50,000. Okay, that's obviously hyperbolic, and also inaccurate: Nairo's 0-death "combo" at SSC recently wasn't even a combo in the traditional sense, but a chain of smaller combos strung together by a series of resets; grabs, nairs, anything to smack Falcon right back into hitstun where he belongs so ZSS could continue racking up damage. This is how high-level Smash 4 play looks-- it's not necessarily a technically impressive feat, but requires absolutely astounding mental dexterity and a deep understanding of the game systems at large-- in other words, it requires the player to read their opponent in order to play effectively.

Enter Robin, a character whose literal in-universe job it is to read his/her opponent and formulate tactics accordingly. One of my favorite things about Sakurai as a director is his ability to translate non-action-oriented experiences into action-substantiated systems, and Robin is no exception to that-- Robin requires a keen mind for tactics in order to play effectively. Laying down traps, catching the opponent out of rolls, baiting airdodges, and alternating appropriately between zoning and aerial rushdown are Robin's bread-and-butter. If the Robin player fails to do these things with consistency, Robin gets heavily punished for his/her poor mobility, predictable recovery, and huge vulnerability after moves. Unlike current favorites for top tier, Robin can't just throw out moves to apply pressure because nearly every tool Robin has is punishable.

I know it might seem like I'm being super down on this character right now, but I wouldn't be arguing that he/she was underrated if I didn't have a "however" to throw in, and speak of the devil, here it comes. However punishable Robin may be, the reward a skillful Robin player can get out of a single good read is enormous. Levin Sword attacks deal damage closing on on 20% each hit and LS aerials come out quickly and, due to the disjointed hitbox, outrange many current top tier darlings by a significant margin. Robin can challenge Sheik's fair, s/he can challenge Falcon's bair, and though s/he can't really challenge Rosalina's uair (really, who can?), s/he can escape it with a well-placed Elwind. Just mathing this out for a second, and given how early LS can kill, that means Robin effectively puts most opponents in kill percent in about 6-9 hits. That's Ganondorf damage, only we're not Ganondorf here-- we're fast (in terms of attack speed, not movement, as addressed previously). Couple this with how much conversion potential Robin has out of his/her projectiles (Arcfire into LS aerial, arcthunder into Nos or grab+dthrow for either a jab or aerial follow-up, so on and so on) and you're looking at a stock that, played well, could be ended in the neighborhood of three good reads. That's not an insurmountable task, and that's just assuming the player is only dealing damage off of reads, completely neglecting Robin's huge zoning potential and ability to contest many if not most approaches with priority, aerial or otherwise (wind jab basically acts as a wall that stops anything from getting in, ftilt comes out fast and definitely beats out barehanded jabs, retreating fair or nair are even better). Additionally, Nosferatu allows Robin to correct for any mistakes that are made by allowing a skillful Robin to just erase that damage from the game forever-- poof, it's gone, I can still JV2. And did I mention the spikes? Robin has two of them, and they're both reliable, at that!

I think primarily the biggest problems facing Robin are that s/he's a hard character to learn, and so not many people are playing. As a result, the Robin meta is only slowly evolving (contrast to Diddy Kong, who being similar to his Brawl incarnation had 6 years to develop a dominant metagame strategy-- at least before the nerfs messed with that, so people say). But, hey, Raziek did pretty well at EVO (despite having none of his matches streamed), so I'm optimistic about the future of this character.

I ain't sayin' Robin's top-10, but... Probably at least top 11. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

EDIT: Whoops, double-post. Sorry about that, internet's reeeeeal bad here right now.

 

[Sol Squid]

I think Robin's criminally underrated, many people place him/her smack-dab in the middle of mid-tier but I attest that no, that's too low. The problem I think lies in the way the community is conceptualizing the game. Frame data and combos are still super important (and Robin actually has those in useful quantities by the by), but the area where Robin really shines is the capacity to capitalize on reading the opponent, a clear emphasis for this game particularly, due to its buffed shielding mechanics.

That might seem kind of dumb at first, but hear me out for a second. Obviously when talking about character ratings you have to keep in mind characters in context; just because one character is good at (and indeed, seems built around) capitalizing on good reads doesn't necessarily mean that they're any better at doing that than the current favorites for top tier. Sheik and ZSS both have crazy mad punish games and combos that are super damaging and super rewarding, dealing upwards of 2 billion percent converted off of one good read, give or take 50,000. Okay, that's obviously hyperbolic, and also inaccurate: Nairo's 0-death "combo" at SSC recently wasn't even a combo in the traditional sense, but a chain of smaller combos strung together by a series of resets; grabs, nairs, anything to smack Falcon right back into hitstun where he belongs so ZSS could continue racking up damage. This is how high-level Smash 4 play looks-- it's not necessarily a technically impressive feat, but requires absolutely astounding mental dexterity and a deep understanding of the game systems at large-- in other words, it requires the player to read their opponent in order to play effectively.

Enter Robin, a character whose literal in-universe job it is to read his/her opponent and formulate tactics accordingly. One of my favorite things about Sakurai as a director is his ability to translate non-action-oriented experiences into action-substantiated systems, and Robin is no exception to that-- Robin requires a keen mind for tactics in order to play effectively. Laying down traps, catching the opponent out of rolls, baiting airdodges, and alternating appropriately between zoning and aerial rushdown are Robin's bread-and-butter. If the Robin player fails to do these things with consistency, Robin gets heavily punished for his/her poor mobility, predictable recovery, and huge vulnerability after moves. Unlike current favorites for top tier, Robin can't just throw out moves to apply pressure because nearly every tool Robin has is punishable.

I know it might seem like I'm being super down on this character right now, but I wouldn't be arguing that he/she was underrated if I didn't have a "however" to throw in, and speak of the devil, here it comes. However punishable Robin may be, the reward a skillful Robin player can get out of a single good read is enormous. Levin Sword attacks deal damage closing on on 20% each hit and LS aerials come out quickly and, due to the disjointed hitbox, outrange many current top tier darlings by a significant margin. Robin can challenge Sheik's fair, s/he can challenge Falcon's bair, and though s/he can't really challenge Rosalina's uair (really, who can?), s/he can escape it with a well-placed Elwind. Just mathing this out for a second, and given how early LS can kill, that means Robin effectively puts most opponents in kill percent in about 6-9 hits. That's Ganondorf damage, only we're not Ganondorf here-- we're fast (in terms of attack speed, not movement, as addressed previously). Couple this with how much conversion potential Robin has out of his/her projectiles (Arcfire into LS aerial, arcthunder into Nos or grab+dthrow for either a jab or aerial follow-up, so on and so on) and you're looking at a stock that, played well, could be ended in the neighborhood of three good reads. That's not an insurmountable task, and that's just assuming the player is only dealing damage off of reads, completely neglecting Robin's huge zoning potential and ability to contest many if not most approaches with priority, aerial or otherwise (wind jab basically acts as a wall that stops anything from getting in, ftilt comes out fast and definitely beats out barehanded jabs, retreating fair or nair are even better). Additionally, Nosferatu allows Robin to correct for any mistakes that are made by allowing a skillful Robin to just erase that damage from the game forever-- poof, it's gone, I can still JV2. And did I mention the spikes? Robin has two of them, and they're both reliable, at that!

I think primarily the biggest problems facing Robin are that s/he's a hard character to learn, and so not many people are playing. As a result, the Robin meta is only slowly evolving (contrast to Diddy Kong, who being similar to his Brawl incarnation had 6 years to develop a dominant metagame strategy-- at least before the nerfs messed with that, so people say). But, hey, Raziek did pretty well at EVO (despite having none of his matches streamed), so I'm optimistic about the future of this character.

I ain't sayin' Robin's top-10, but... Probably at least top 11. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I love Robin. He is one of my favorite characters to play. I think putting him mid tier is generous for now. Robin has everything to be a great character, but he has flaws. Sakurai and his team managed to make a character very true to his game series, Fire Emblem. I love Fire Emblem, but Sakurai's devotion to being true to the series also caused flaws. Some of Robin's magic and weapons disappear too fast. Arcfire and Levin Sword go away to fast. Robin also is way to slow. Robin is not necessarilly a fast character in Awakening, but Robin is almost around the same speed as Ike. Robin has great tilts, smashes, and aerials. He also can completely cancel landing lag with Thunder. These things do not erase some of his glaring flaws though.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Robin also is way too slow.

I dunno, I feel like making Robin faster would be like saying "Okay, here is the objectively best character in the videogame." Robin definitely does have glaring flaws, but I definitely think they're compensated for appropriately. 7 seconds to wait for a LS refresh isn't hugely burdensome if you save up your zoning tools for just the occasion-- lately I've been trying out keeping aggressive opponents at bay with uncharged thunder, and the very horizontal knockback angle of bronze sword nair and fair make waiting on the LS to come back merely a temporary shift in playstyle rather than a moment of obvious weakness. Same with losing a tome-- just because you lose one option doesn't necessarily disadvantage you because of Robin's versatility as a character.

Definitely not the best in the game, but I would not be surprised if Robin acquired a bigger tournament presence in the foreseeable future once people discover how to effectively use his tools against popular picks-- Sheik and Falcon being fastfallers (and thus far more vulnerable to Robin's traps) would be my best guess as to the instigator for the shift, but I'm just speculating here.

 

[Browny]

Ike gets a footstool from his first grab, so that's a variable 19-40+ true combo (max I've gotten on a person is 73%, but usually around 40 something). Even without that, there's some 30% combos with platforms. Add in string potential and it's more than that.

Uthrow->fair works until 70 something with mid rage on floaties, but on regular characters, expect 90+ with moderate rage and 105+ with no rage. Increase those numbers depending on how staled uthrow is as well. Rage uthrow is tough to predict when the combo period ends.

I got my numbers by watching matches of ryos ike and seeing what he did when he got grabs and it was pretty consistent in missing around 75 or higher...

If we're going to add platforms, m2s dthrow true combos into usmash (it goes through a tech) at like 70-90% which will kill most middleweights but we dont talk about that lol.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Viable because:
+ Has a good matchup against the newly risen
+ Doesn't fare badly against the overused , might infact be one of Sheik's hardest matchups
+ Has had his KO power buffed since the last patch on D Smash and U Smash is also reliable now, giving Diddy 3 rather strong Smash moves
+ Bananas being the best projectile in the game after Needles
+ Extremely adaptive and versatile
+ F Air is easily one of the best Aerial Moves in the game, B Air is one of the best B Airs in the game
+ Combo potential and extreme mobility
+ A very strong command grab which has 2 options even, and is an amazing approach
+ Two projectiles
+ Brings the element of surprise, because since the nerf of Hoo-Hah has been mostly abandoned by bandwagonists (ZeRo proofs this)
+ Favorable matchups against like, 70% of the cast
+ Also: probably the best neutral in the game outside of maybe Sheik.

Diddy Kong is easily still Top 5 material in my opinion. Only characters I think are definitely better are: .

 

[LancerStaff]

Actual question, why do people think that Marth, Lucina, and Roy are similar in the viability scale? Roy's side smash can kill at 47%. Earlier than most of what Ike can do, and far less laggy. Seriously, f-smash has like no lag. Roy also has so little lag on so many of his moves. Roy also has guranteed D-Throw combos.

Fsmash is waaay overrated and doesn't make up for Roy's problems. It's really not hard to punish... His "better" frame data is only on a few moves and is pretty much irrelevant because it's like two frames at most. Half of Marth's aerials have better frame data, as does his Fsmash. Roy's Dash Attack is garbage for approaching, he can't autocancel his aerials as effectively, Fair is useless for escaping combos due to the startup... And his recovery is dismal.

And if we're talking about Dthrows, Pit's is flat-out better.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

Fsmash is waaay overrated and doesn't make up for Roy's problems. It's really not hard to punish... His "better" frame data is only on a few moves and is pretty much irrelevant because it's like two frames at most. Half of Marth's aerials have better frame data, as does his Fsmash. Roy's Dash Attack is garbage for approaching, he can't autocancel his aerials as effectively, Fair is useless for escaping combos due to the startup... And his recovery is dismal.

And if we're talking about Dthrows, Pit's is flat-out better.

My problem with pit is that I can't land his kill moves, his side smash requires a way harder read then Roy's side tilt, I have difficulty landing a killing aerial with pit when off stage, but endup killing with a Fair with not even half the difficultly it takes for pit to kill with any aerial. How is Pit's Dthrow better than Roy's? I also don't understand why you would want to approach with a dash attack. I also think Roy's up B is his combo escape move not his Fair.