Tell Me Why YOUR Main is Underrated or Viable

[dandeto]

Most good players think falcon is an easy character to pick up out of nowhere, but speaking from experience, anyone who switches to CF on for glory gets completely annihilated by me. he has great kill, spacing, and combo options, he just doesn't have projectiles.

 

[Sev3n]

Link is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO underrated. He has so many good options to explore, but because of brawl, no one says he is good. People need to stop playing FG spammy Links and fight dudes like @Izaw. @SCIZOR , @link and ike lover and HH and even others and me if you want a good legit Link.

I am glad that I am not the only one who feels this way. Granted, I don't think Link is top tier or anything, but I do think that he's better than even the people who main him give him credit for. Probably pretty close to competitively viable, if it wasn't for a few key matchups (ZSS, Diddy, Shiek).

Meanwhile, I'm dropping him as my main, hah.

 

[Rinku リンク]

As a Link main I can probably thank FG for everyone thinking Link is underrated lol. Though in general he just isn't played much at all so people don't give him a lot of credit for what he's capable of.

 

[MioTinto]

Alright, Dedede, eh?

Pros: The best vertical survivability in the game, great offstage game, big meaty disjoints, Gordos being very versatile for trapping and pressuring, hits like a goddamn tank, great edgeguarder, has an ifinite taunt
Cons: The frame data... [cringes]
In conclusion: Dedede is both overrated and underrated: the community underrates him, and the developers overrate him. With buffs in the right places and more dedicated players, he could very much be a solid mid tier. Frame data alone can't really destroy a character's viability when Dr. Mario, a character with Mario's frame data, is as awful as he is.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Bowser Jr?
Well....
He's heavy, and his kart takes less damage than he does.
Bowser Jr. has great disjointed aerials and good enough mobility to use them. They also flow and link together rather well.
His mechakoopa is great for stage control if used properly, Cannonballs can be ledge cancelled, and his up B is a very good kill move.
His recovery is pretty good, though one must be careful not to get gimped after up B.

Cons? Frame data is terrible for most of his attacks, his aerials have a ton of landing lag, smashes are laggy, hurtboxes are wonky (more often than not Bowser Jr. takes more damage than usual if you hit him directly), grab is terrible, no throw follow ups, the list goes on.
That being said, we all don't have to be Tweek to take advantage of this very interesting character. With a couple of minor adjustments and more exposure, Bowser Jr. is probably one of the best heavies in the game. :D

 

[Greentauros]

I do think that Peach is underrated, once someone places high with her in a tournament she'll start being noticed more. She has a fantastic combo game and the great ability to zone with turnips. Not to mention her kill options are pretty good, you can gimp with turnips, her f-air is pretty powerful as well as her up-smash. She's also really fun to play. I don't think she's B tier, but maybe up there in the top 10.

Now about Jigglypuff, I do think this shield stun thing will be a big buff to the puff, that being said it's also a bit of a nerf as when shielding, if your shield breaks automatic loss of a stock. She should rise a few in the tiers but instead of just being low tier now I see her being lower middle tier.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I know that Ike has been getting a lot more recognition as of late, but I still think a lot of people aren't taking him completely seriously. He has several autocancels, amazing spacing, great mobility, decent grab range, lives a long time due to higher weight, and has actual combos. Not to mention every move of his is capable of killing (aside from his throws). No he's not top tier, but I'd definitely place him in an above average ranking.

 

[Aenglaan]

Charizard is somewhat underrated, but its getting more recognition for being like Ike, as both have received great improvements through patches. Like Ike, Charizard is a fast heavy-hitter with a good jab, d-tilt, d-smash, and if done correctly f-tilt. It also has a decent aerials and a very good grab (seismic toss is easily the best one).

 

[Pherae77]

In this thread, Roy is underrated while Marth is overrated. Marth has two advantages over Roy, and two only. Marth's tipper mechanic is fundamentally better than Roy's hilter mechanic. Marth's floatiness also allows him to have a better gimp game, and recovery. Roy is faster, so he can pressure the opponent better, has more options, kills earlier more consistently along with more killing moves, and has a better, more consistent punish game.

Roy's d-throw combos are only DI dependent after a certain percent. That's still miles better than Marth's one single throw combo that only works at low percents. He also has falling upair combos that can kill, and are true combos that aren't DI dependent. Marth has little to no combos, and he can't string nearly as well because his fair has too much endlag, and hit the opponent too far away to make up for it. Roy can act out of his fair faster, and can follow up with it in the air because of his speed. He can also string together nairs due to his faster fall speed, something that Marth has much more trouble doing. His neutral game is also better. Marth is better at spacing his approaches, but Marth's approaches are weak and un-intimidating. He has too much endlag and can be easily punished/ advanced upon. He has no good combos, and if he grabs you, so what? He can't do anything out of it. Roy can scare the opponent which makes him more of a threat in the neutral. Roy also has a safer nair and jab. Roy also has setups that lead to some of his smash attacks for even earlier kills. Marth will never hit a tippered fsmash unless his opponent is an idiot. Roy has a much easier time killing than Marth in general. Marth has to rely on gimps and hard reads, while Roy can set his opponents up, and can even kill OOS with his blazer. Roy's dash attack also kills extremely early, while Marth's isn't even a kill option. Marth's isn't even safer to make up for it. Roy's punish game is significantly better, which is extremely important for characters like Marth and Roy who can't approach very well.

The difference between Marth and Roy isn't as significant as it was in Melee, but Roy is better by at least a tier or two. Roy is a solid high-mid tier, or low-high tier, while Marth is a solid high-low tier, or low-mid tier.

 

[LancerStaff]

In this thread, Roy is underrated while Marth is overrated. Marth has two advantages over Roy, and two only. Marth's tipper mechanic is fundamentally better than Roy's hilter mechanic. Marth's floatiness also allows him to have a better gimp game, and recovery. Roy is faster, so he can pressure the opponent better, has more options, kills earlier more consistently along with more killing moves, and has a better, more consistent punish game.

Roy's d-throw combos are only DI dependent after a certain percent. That's still miles better than Marth's one single throw combo that only works at low percents. He also has falling upair combos that can kill, and are true combos that aren't DI dependent. Marth has little to no combos, and he can't string nearly as well because his fair has too much endlag, and hit the opponent too far away to make up for it. Roy can act out of his fair faster, and can follow up with it in the air because of his speed. He can also string together nairs due to his faster fall speed, something that Marth has much more trouble doing. His neutral game is also better. Marth is better at spacing his approaches, but Marth's approaches are weak and un-intimidating. He has too much endlag and can be easily punished/ advanced upon. He has no good combos, and if he grabs you, so what? He can't do anything out of it. Roy can scare the opponent which makes him more of a threat in the neutral. Roy also has a safer nair and jab. Roy also has setups that lead to some of his smash attacks for even earlier kills. Marth will never hit a tippered fsmash unless his opponent is an idiot. Roy has a much easier time killing than Marth in general. Marth has to rely on gimps and hard reads, while Roy can set his opponents up, and can even kill OOS with his blazer. Roy's dash attack also kills extremely early, while Marth's isn't even a kill option. Marth's isn't even safer to make up for it. Roy's punish game is significantly better, which is extremely important for characters like Marth and Roy who can't approach very well.

The difference between Marth and Roy isn't as significant as it was in Melee, but Roy is better by at least a tier or two. Roy is a solid high-mid tier, or low-high tier, while Marth is a solid high-low tier, or low-mid tier.

Roy's not looking so hot in comparison to Marth after the shieldstun buff. Only their sweetspots benefit from the changes, and naturally Marth's are easier to make use of.

Recovery and an offstage game are much more then the footnote then you imply it is. You need a great recovery so you can survive against top tiers, and you need an offstage game to put low tiers (and Falcon and Ryu for that matter) in their place. Roy doesn't have either.

Marth's neutral is better, though. Roy can close the gap with his speed, but he can't do much with it besides Nair. Roy's Fair has too much startup to be effective in neutral. Endlag? They're effectively equal. Some of Marth's are faster, some of Roy's are faster. Marth's Fsmash for example has better startup and endlag. Roy's has more range but then his sourspot gets in the way of that. Don't even think you can say he can deal with projectiles better because of how linear his approach options are.

A lot of these little things you're talking about... You're just ignoring what Marth's has. Roy's dash attack is strictly a punish, Marth's has other uses. Some of the things you're saying are just wrong... I don't even play as either character and it's easy to see how far off you are.

 

[Pherae77]

Roy's not looking so hot in comparison to Marth after the shieldstun buff. Only their sweetspots benefit from the changes, and naturally Marth's are easier to make use of.

Recovery and an offstage game are much more then the footnote then you imply it is. You need a great recovery so you can survive against top tiers, and you need an offstage game to put low tiers (and Falcon and Ryu for that matter) in their place. Roy doesn't have either.

Marth's neutral is better, though. Roy can close the gap with his speed, but he can't do much with it besides Nair. Roy's Fair has too much startup to be effective in neutral. Endlag? They're effectively equal. Some of Marth's are faster, some of Roy's are faster. Marth's Fsmash for example has better startup and endlag. Roy's has more range but then his sourspot gets in the way of that. Don't even think you can say he can deal with projectiles better because of how linear his approach options are.

A lot of these little things you're talking about... You're just ignoring what Marth's has. Roy's dash attack is strictly a punish, Marth's has other uses. Some of the things you're saying are just wrong... I don't even play as either character and it's easy to see how far off you are.

Roy has an offstage game though. I just said it's not as good as Marth's, not that he doesn't have one at all. And his recovery isn't even that much worse than Marth's. Take a look at the recovery rankings thread. Marth and Roy are very close.

In the neutral, Marth can't do anything with fair either. His fair has too much endlag to be safe. He might not get punished due to his spacing, but it will allow the opponent to get better positioning. And his nair isn't even as safe as Roy's. Jumping in the neutral isn't the ideal thing to do, and Marth has less safe options than Roy on the ground. He can't force the opponent to respect his options because he has no options, and a subpar punish game. All Marth can do is bait you, which he's not even that good at. Neither of their neutrals are that great, but Marth's is slightly worse.

Of course some of Marth's moves have better endlag, and some of Roy's have better endlag. That's not the point I was making. I was talking specifically about their fairs, which is an important part of Marth's gameplay. Roy can act out of his fair faster, which allows him to string with it better in the air. In Melee, Marth's fair was used to combo, now it can't even string very well. That's why I talked about this. Because it's an important part of Marth's gameplay, that Roy does better.

What other uses does Marth's dash attack have then? As I previously mentioned, it's not that much safer, so it's not an approach. It doesn't lead into anything, so it's not a combo starter, it doesn't kill, so it's not a punish.... Explain to me how it's a better move? And give me an example of something I said that was wrong please. If you don't play either character, how can you know whether what i'm saying is correct or not?

 

[LancerStaff]

Roy has an offstage game though. I just said it's not as good as Marth's, not that he doesn't have one at all. And his recovery isn't even that much worse than Marth's. Take a look at the recovery rankings thread. Marth and Roy are very close.

In the neutral, Marth can't do anything with fair either. His fair has too much endlag to be safe. He might not get punished due to his spacing, but it will allow the opponent to get better positioning. And his nair isn't even as safe as Roy's. Jumping in the neutral isn't the ideal thing to do, and Marth has less safe options than Roy on the ground. He can't force the opponent to respect his options because he has no options, and a subpar punish game. All Marth can do is bait you, which he's not even that good at. Neither of their neutrals are that great, but Marth's is slightly worse.

Of course some of Marth's moves have better endlag, and some of Roy's have better endlag. That's not the point I was making. I was talking specifically about their fairs, which is an important part of Marth's gameplay. Roy can act out of his fair faster, which allows him to string with it better in the air. In Melee, Marth's fair was used to combo, now it can't even string very well. That's why I talked about this. Because it's an important part of Marth's gameplay, that Roy does better.

What other uses does Marth's dash attack have then? As I previously mentioned, it's not that much safer, so it's not an approach. It doesn't lead into anything, so it's not a combo starter, it doesn't kill, so it's not a punish.... Explain to me how it's a better move? And give me an example of something I said that was wrong please. If you don't play either character, how can you know whether what i'm saying is correct or not?

Distance wise they're similar, but Roy can't afford really to throw out an aerial offstage, can't stall with Fspecial, and Blazer is easily gimped. Hence the nickname "Little Mac with a sword." When almost every decent character has a great offstage game and can gimp Roy like they can gimp Captain Falcon it's a major weakness. Roy can kinda edgeguard, but it's poor in comparison to Marth.

Marth's Fair is actually usable in breaking pressure, and it's quite good at that. Roy hopelessly winds up and takes a hit to the face. All he can do is predictably Nair and hope the opponent doesn't hit him where his Nair doesn't reach. Actually, all of Marth's aerials are better at clearing space then Roy's because he has a balance of good aerials rather then just Nair. Roy's Bair has less active frames, and his Dair doesn't swing in an arc. Roy's both poor at keeping people off him and poor offstage.

Back to neutral, Marth can Bair, Nair, and even Fair as far as aerials go. SH Bair autocancels too. He has plenty of options... Roy's Nair is better, but Fair and Bair don't work on him. In practice, only having Nair as an aerial option is crippling. Grounded Roy's slightly better I believe but it doesn't make up for how bad his aerial approach is.

Stringing Fairs together isn't important anymore since they've both been redesigned. Roy can't even do it to a decent extent on characters who matter.

Anti air, I believe. And much less endlag. If somebody tries to throw out an aerial it's a good way to just say no to that if Marth doesn't want to take to the air himself. Marth's works more as an all-around move while Roy's is just a punish... Yet another punish, I might add. His is pretty useless in the grand scheme of things.

Really, until Roy ceases to be complete and utter combo food and gains a decent recovery, Marth's just going to be better against every top tier.

 

[Pherae77]

Distance wise they're similar, but Roy can't afford really to throw out an aerial offstage, can't stall with Fspecial, and Blazer is easily gimped. Hence the nickname "Little Mac with a sword." When almost every decent character has a great offstage game and can gimp Roy like they can gimp Captain Falcon it's a major weakness. Roy can kinda edgeguard, but it's poor in comparison to Marth.

Marth's Fair is actually usable in breaking pressure, and it's quite good at that. Roy hopelessly winds up and takes a hit to the face. All he can do is predictably Nair and hope the opponent doesn't hit him where his Nair doesn't reach. Actually, all of Marth's aerials are better at clearing space then Roy's because he has a balance of good aerials rather then just Nair. Roy's Bair has less active frames, and his Dair doesn't swing in an arc. Roy's both poor at keeping people off him and poor offstage.

Back to neutral, Marth can Bair, Nair, and even Fair as far as aerials go. SH Bair autocancels too. He has plenty of options... Roy's Nair is better, but Fair and Bair don't work on him. In practice, only having Nair as an aerial option is crippling. Grounded Roy's slightly better I believe but it doesn't make up for how bad his aerial approach is.

Stringing Fairs together isn't important anymore since they've both been redesigned. Roy can't even do it to a decent extent on characters who matter.

Anti air, I believe. And much less endlag. If somebody tries to throw out an aerial it's a good way to just say no to that if Marth doesn't want to take to the air himself. Marth's works more as an all-around move while Roy's is just a punish... Yet another punish, I might add. His is pretty useless in the grand scheme of things.

Really, until Roy ceases to be complete and utter combo food and gains a decent recovery, Marth's just going to be better against every top tier.

"Roy can't afford really to throw out an aerial offstage," Well that's just utterly not true. Roy can throw out plenty of aerials off stage. He can safely throw out 3 fairs before he has to recover. Blazer really isn't that easily gimpable. What makes him gimpable is his fall speed. Roy's recovery isn't that much worse than Falcon's and Falcon is a high tier. Roy can edgeguard quite well. It's not poor in comparison to Marth, it's just simply not as good.

Sorry, but Marth's aerial's aren't nearly as good as you're making them out to be. They have too much lag to be that much of a threat. If Marth misses, he's going to be in a bad position. Roy has good options in nair, down-tilt, and jab. Marth has mediocre options in bair, fair, and down tilt. Nair isn't an option for Marth unless you want to get punished. Why should anyone be afraid of Marth's laggy aerials? He can't pressure anyone with them. All they have to do is wait for him to whiff and then move in through the lag.

Stringing fairs is important. For Marth at least, since he can't string nairs as good as he used to, or as well as Roy. Marth hasn't been redesigned, he's been nerfed. Not sure what you mean by "characters who matter"... weight and fall speed isn't dependent on tiers, so that doesn't make much sense.

Marth's dash is not a very effective anti-air. It's hitbox is only in front of Marth, not over top of him like in Melee. And it doesn't have much less end lag. It has less end lag, but only by about a frame... A move not being good for anything doesn't make it an all around move, it makes it a bad move. You act like Roy's dash being a punish isn't a good thing. If an opponent whiffs a move, having a dash attack that can kill is an _extremely_ good and quick option if you're not in position for anything else, and a lot of Roy's kills come off of it. That's just another example of why Roy's punish game is miles ahead of Marth. And again, for character's like Marth and Roy in smash 4, punish game is extremely important.

Until Marth obtains more options in the neutral, less endlag, and a better punish game, Roy will be better against the top tiers.

 

[Stromp]

Welp she is viable I suppose. With the recent patch to Luma I'll probably have to pick up a secondary though

 

[LancerStaff]

"Roy can't afford really to throw out an aerial offstage," Well that's just utterly not true. Roy can throw out plenty of aerials off stage. He can safely throw out 3 fairs before he has to recover. Blazer really isn't that easily gimpable. What makes him gimpable is his fall speed. Roy's recovery isn't that much worse than Falcon's and Falcon is a high tier. Roy can edgeguard quite well. It's not poor in comparison to Marth, it's just simply not as good.

Sorry, but Marth's aerial's aren't nearly as good as you're making them out to be. They have too much lag to be that much of a threat. If Marth misses, he's going to be in a bad position. Roy has good options in nair, down-tilt, and jab. Marth has mediocre options in bair, fair, and down tilt. Nair isn't an option for Marth unless you want to get punished. Why should anyone be afraid of Marth's laggy aerials? He can't pressure anyone with them. All they have to do is wait for him to whiff and then move in through the lag.

Stringing fairs is important. For Marth at least, since he can't string nairs as good as he used to, or as well as Roy. Marth hasn't been redesigned, he's been nerfed. Not sure what you mean by "characters who matter"... weight and fall speed isn't dependent on tiers, so that doesn't make much sense.

Marth's dash is not a very effective anti-air. It's hitbox is only in front of Marth, not over top of him like in Melee. And it doesn't have much less end lag. It has less end lag, but only by about a frame... A move not being good for anything doesn't make it an all around move, it makes it a bad move. You act like Roy's dash being a punish isn't a good thing. If an opponent whiffs a move, having a dash attack that can kill is an _extremely_ good and quick option if you're not in position for anything else, and a lot of Roy's kills come off of it. That's just another example of why Roy's punish game is miles ahead of Marth. And again, for character's like Marth and Roy in smash 4, punish game is extremely important.

Until Marth obtains more options in the neutral, less endlag, and a better punish game, Roy will be better against the top tiers.

When recovering, nope. Since he's going to be below the opponent he has a giant blind spot up front too.

Roy can't SHAC Bair. Roy's Fair is laggier then Marth's and interrupting doesn't much of anything for endlag. How are Marth's aerials slower? They're much safer then Roy's because of the shieldstun mechanics too, since Roy's tippers didn't gain anything from the increase.

Only characters you'll get a good string on are fatties, and the only decent fatty is DK. Just do the math...

Still safer due to tippers though, and since there is some verticality to it it's better at catching jumps as well. Roy's dash attack is useless because nobody is going to get hit by it. Roy's options out of a dash are much too predictable for that.

And way to dance around the fact that Roy is combo food... Roy does more damage but takes much more and is easily gimped in return.

Bottom line is that Roy has no results in tournaments. Marth does, and it's not just because Roy's new either. Marth got some giant buffs the day Roy came out and it's reflected in his results. Last I heard Roy's "best player" found the most success playing him like a worse Marth.

 

[Pherae77]

When recovering, nope. Since he's going to be below the opponent he has a giant blind spot up front too.

Roy can't SHAC Bair. Roy's Fair is laggier then Marth's and interrupting doesn't much of anything for endlag. How are Marth's aerials slower? They're much safer then Roy's because of the shieldstun mechanics too, since Roy's tippers didn't gain anything from the increase.

Only characters you'll get a good string on are fatties, and the only decent fatty is DK. Just do the math...

Still safer due to tippers though, and since there is some verticality to it it's better at catching jumps as well. Roy's dash attack is useless because nobody is going to get hit by it. Roy's options out of a dash are much too predictable for that.

And way to dance around the fact that Roy is combo food... Roy does more damage but takes much more and is easily gimped in return.

Bottom line is that Roy has no results in tournaments. Marth does, and it's not just because Roy's new either. Marth got some giant buffs the day Roy came out and it's reflected in his results. Last I heard Roy's "best player" found the most success playing him like a worse Marth.

When recovering nope what?

Roy's fair isn't laggier than Marth's. Maybe in landing lag, but Roy can act out of it in the air faster. They are slower because Marth is floaty so he doesn't land as quick, and Roy's land lag is shorter than most of Marth's endlag. Specifically the nair. The shield stun mechanic really doesn't make as big of a difference as you're making it out to. Marth's tippers will produce more shield stun than Roy's tippers because Marth's tipper is his sweetspot, but it doesn't really matter, because his moves are so laggy and he still has to commit whenever he swings. It helps, but not enough to make a real difference in the Marth Roy meta.

You can get strings on more characters than just fatties. They are strings, not combos, you just have to know your options, and what your opponent will do. Marth has more trouble with this because he is fighting with himself, as well as the opponent because his aerials knock the opponent too far away, and he doesn't have the air speed, or quick enough aerials, to catch up.

Roy is combo food. Not going to deny it. But every character has disadvantages. Roy has advantages to make up for it.

Show me some good Marth tournament results. Roy doesn't have any because he's new and no one wants to learn him. Don't know where you heard that, but that doesn't make any sense, and quite frankly has no credibility behind it.

 

[LancerStaff]

When recovering nope what?

Roy's fair isn't laggier than Marth's. Maybe in landing lag, but Roy can act out of it in the air faster. They are slower because Marth is floaty so he doesn't land as quick, and Roy's land lag is shorter than most of Marth's endlag. Specifically the nair. The shield stun mechanic really doesn't make as big of a difference as you're making it out to. Marth's tippers will produce more shield stun than Roy's tippers because Marth's tipper is his sweetspot, but it doesn't really matter, because his moves are so laggy and he still has to commit whenever he swings. It helps, but not enough to make a real difference in the Marth Roy meta.

You can get strings on more characters than just fatties. They are strings, not combos, you just have to know your options, and what your opponent will do. Marth has more trouble with this because he is fighting with himself, as well as the opponent because his aerials knock the opponent too far away, and he doesn't have the air speed, or quick enough aerials, to catch up.

Roy is combo food. Not going to deny it. But every character has disadvantages. Roy has advantages to make up for it.

Show me some good Marth tournament results. Roy doesn't have any because he's new and no one wants to learn him. Don't know where you heard that, but that doesn't make any sense, and quite frankly has no credibility behind it.

No aerials. Roy falls too fast to throw out more then one aerial when recovering. Like I said, not a good combination with the blind spot up front.

"Safe on shield" and "major commitment" are largely exclusive for an aerial, especially a normal one like Marth's Fair. Roy's Nair is like two frames faster... More then made up for by the shieldstun changes. I don't think there's a difference of more then two frames on any of their moves not counting specials and smashes.

And the top tiers are the top tiers because they can often void these strings. It's irrelevant. Marth isn't tripping over himself... Roy is, however, just a hot mess. Tons of speed but nowhere to go.

People don't want to learn him, hm? Don't find that likely since people got a grasp of Ryu pretty quick even though he's so technical. If he's really better then Marth then you wouldn't have Roys who turned to Marth after he was cut pass him up for Marth instead because they immediately think he's worse. Wouldn't have the Character Competitive Impressions thread consistently rate him much lower then Marth either.

Speaking of the CCI, that's the best place to go if you're curious about results. Ask for X's results and they'll set you straight. Two weeks ago I think there was a big debate about which of these two is better, and it came down to the fact that Roy's results were practically nonexistent while 1.0.8 Marth was doing well. Most of Roy's results came from Marth mains... Don't start X vs. Y debates though, that won't turn out well for you.

 

[Wintropy]

I don't think this thread should be for debating character viability.

It seems to defeat the point of the thread.

 

[iVoltage]

Pikachu is honestly the most underrated. People constantly put him as 3 or 4 in their tier lists for whatever reason. He is obviously #1!
Don't kill me pls

 

[Rashyboy05]

I feel like this thread should be about the reason WHY people think their main is underrated and not about who's better than who or what is their viability rankings. That **** belongs to the Competitive Impressions thread.

Also lol at comparing Marth and Roy. The only similarities they have are their movesets. Their playstyles are rather different. Marth spaces for tips, has Jab shenanigans with Jab1 and has overall safer aerials than Roy while Roy is more of a "in your face" character with, admittedly, better grab combos than Marth and the mere fact that his sweetspot is at the hilt of the sword rather than the blade itself.

 

[Pherae77]

No aerials. Roy falls too fast to throw out more then one aerial when recovering. Like I said, not a good combination with the blind spot up front.

"Safe on shield" and "major commitment" are largely exclusive for an aerial, especially a normal one like Marth's Fair. Roy's Nair is like two frames faster... More then made up for by the shieldstun changes. I don't think there's a difference of more then two frames on any of their moves not counting specials and smashes.

And the top tiers are the top tiers because they can often void these strings. It's irrelevant. Marth isn't tripping over himself... Roy is, however, just a hot mess. Tons of speed but nowhere to go.

People don't want to learn him, hm? Don't find that likely since people got a grasp of Ryu pretty quick even though he's so technical. If he's really better then Marth then you wouldn't have Roys who turned to Marth after he was cut pass him up for Marth instead because they immediately think he's worse. Wouldn't have the Character Competitive Impressions thread consistently rate him much lower then Marth either.

Speaking of the CCI, that's the best place to go if you're curious about results. Ask for X's results and they'll set you straight. Two weeks ago I think there was a big debate about which of these two is better, and it came down to the fact that Roy's results were practically nonexistent while 1.0.8 Marth was doing well. Most of Roy's results came from Marth mains... Don't start X vs. Y debates though, that won't turn out well for you.

Why would you try to edgeguard while recovering? I'm talking about going offstage after your opponent, while they are trying to recover.

Marth's fair isn't safe on shield. That's why it's a major commitment. It's extremely negative on shield. The only reason he doesn't get punished when he hits the shield is because of his range, but it still allows the opponent to get a positional advantage and take Marth out of his preferred range. You're missing the point. Roy's nair isn't that much faster, but Roy's fast falling benefits him much more. His land lag is less than Marth's endlag, which means while Marth is flailing around in the air, Roy is back on the ground safe. And if Marth misses, he will be punished. That's why it's unsafe. If Roy misses, he's good because he's already back on the ground with little land lag.

Top tiers aren't top tiers because they can avoid strings... They are top tiers because they have the best tools. Fox is a fast faller and is top tier.

I haven't seen any more Ryus than i've seen Roys in big tournaments. And Ryu being more technical is likely the reason why a lot of people want to learn him, if that were true. When a character is so different, with such unknown potential, people tend to want to try them out. I have no idea what you're talking about about Roys who passed Roy up for Marth after he was cut and immediately thinking he is worse. First of all, that's not actual data that you can obtain, and second why would it matter what they think, if they haven't learned him? The whole Roy board agrees that Roy is much better. And why would people who have already spent so much time learning their main, want to switch to a new one for DLC? If they are loyal to the character, sure. But there's not much reason to other than that. Roy's not top tier, so that's not a reason either. Roy isn't getting results because people simply don't have a reason to switch to him.

But anyway, people are complaining about debating on here, so this will be my last reply.

 

[LancerStaff]

Why would you try to edgeguard while recovering? I'm talking about going offstage after your opponent, while they are trying to recover.

Marth's fair isn't safe on shield. That's why it's a major commitment. It's extremely negative on shield. The only reason he doesn't get punished when he hits the shield is because of his range, but it still allows the opponent to get a positional advantage and take Marth out of his preferred range. You're missing the point. Roy's nair isn't that much faster, but Roy's fast falling benefits him much more. His land lag is less than Marth's endlag, which means while Marth is flailing around in the air, Roy is back on the ground safe. And if Marth misses, he will be punished. That's why it's unsafe. If Roy misses, he's good because he's already back on the ground with little land lag.

Top tiers aren't top tiers because they can avoid strings... They are top tiers because they have the best tools. Fox is a fast faller and is top tier.

I haven't seen any more Ryus than i've seen Roys in big tournaments. And Ryu being more technical is likely the reason why a lot of people want to learn him, if that were true. When a character is so different, with such unknown potential, people tend to want to try them out. I have no idea what you're talking about about Roys who passed Roy up for Marth after he was cut and immediately thinking he is worse. First of all, that's not actual data that you can obtain, and second why would it matter what they think, if they haven't learned him? The whole Roy board agrees that Roy is much better. And why would people who have already spent so much time learning their main, want to switch to a new one for DLC? If they are loyal to the character, sure. But there's not much reason to other than that. Roy's not top tier, so that's not a reason either. Roy isn't getting results because people simply don't have a reason to switch to him.

But anyway, people are complaining about debating on here, so this will be my last reply.

It's called defending yourself...

Two frames isn't safer to any significant extent. Marth's Fair is safer on shield when spaced, and when spaced that gives him even more of a frame advantage. Marth isn't magically super punishable over two frames. That's not how fast falling works either. Marth and Roy can both land on the ground with a Nair or whatever coming out on the last frame. I don't think Roy can SHFF Nair to any meaning extent without killing the second hitbox, and Marth can SHFF Fair faster because it doesn't have ten frames of startup.

I was thinking of Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu, and Rosalina namely.

...Where have you been? There's been plenty of Ryus placing high in major tournaments.

I know because I was there on his forums. Pretty sure I was the first person to challenge the idea that Dthrow > Blazer wouldn't actually kill a decent opponent because multihit moves are easy to DI, and yet I still see people claim it's a kill combo...

It's one thing to claim a character is underrated. It's another to knock another down to boost them up. There's not even that much distance between them...

 

[Rashyboy05]

Marth's fair isn't safe on shield.

You there.
Stop talking ****.
Pre Patch 1.11 The sourspots of his aerials are safe on shield. Come patch 1.11 and his tippers of all aerials are now MUCH safer on shield. I know you think Roy is underrated and all but talking **** of a different character you clearly know nothing about is not the way to advertise your character.

 

[Pherae77]

You there.
Stop talking ****.
Pre Patch 1.11 The sourspots of his aerials are safe on shield. Come patch 1.11 and his tippers of all aerials are now MUCH safer on shield. I know you think Roy is underrated and all but talking **** of a different character you clearly know nothing about is not the way to advertise your character.

They are a little safer, still not completely safe, and if he whiffs he's still put in a bad position because of their lag. If you think Marth's aerials are completely safe maybe it's you who knows nothing about the character.

Only reason why i'm talking about Marth is because that literally was the topic of conversation earlier in the thread. Bashing Roy to make Marth seem superior. Forget about that?

It's called defending yourself...

Roy's ability to defend himself while recovering has nothing to do with his ability to edgeguard. We already established he can be gimped.

Pretty sure I was the first person to challenge the idea that Dthrow > Blazer wouldn't actually kill a decent opponent because multihit moves are easy to DI, and yet I still see people claim it's a kill combo...

You realize that just because a move can be DI'd doesn't mean it loses it's ability to kill...?

 

[Rashyboy05]

They are a little safer, still not completely safe, and if he whiffs he's still put in a bad position because of their lag. If you think Marth's aerials are completely safe maybe it's you who knows nothing about the character.

Only reason why i'm talking about Marth is because that literally was the topic of conversation earlier in the thread. Bashing Roy to make Marth seem superior. Forget about that?

Yeah, at this point. I'm done with your bull****. Oh yes, I don't know about the character you say? Too bad I hang around in the Marth boards gathering good knowledge about the character. Oh no! The Marth boards must be wrong when they said that Marth's aerials became MUCH safer on shield in Patch 1.11. Oh wait! Maybe you know better about Marth than the Marth Boards, I presume? The entire Marth boards should TOTALLY be ashamed for not knowing what they're talking about and now must rely on you for information about their character. Never mind the men we have who gather Marth's frame data for every patch change. Naw! ****dat! Its as obvious as daylight that you know Marth more than our character boards amiright? #TotallyNotSarcasm.

Did a quick skim of the previous pages and I literally saw no indication of Roy bashing to praise Marth being a topic. Trying to lie out of your way to justify your bashing I suppose?

 

[Pherae77]

Yeah, at this point. I'm done with your bull****. Oh yes, I don't know about the character you say? Too bad I hang around in the Marth boards gathering good knowledge about the character. Oh no! The Marth boards must be wrong when they said that Marth's aerials became MUCH safer on shield in Patch 1.11. Oh wait! Maybe you know better about Marth than the Marth Boards, I presume? The entire Marth boards should TOTALLY be ashamed for not knowing what they're talking about and now must rely on you for information about their character. Never mind the men we have who gather Marth's frame data for every patch change. Naw! ****dat! Its as obvious as daylight that you know Marth more than our character boards amiright? #TotallyNotSarcasm.

The whole Marth boards thinks Marth got safer on shield, not MUCH safer. You're about two frames safer. Still negative. It's safe on shield on tippers, but not on sourspots. It's also extremely unsafe as a poke option. If he whiffs, he still has the same amount of lag as he did before, and will be put in a bad position because of it, meaning it's an unsafe approach, even if it's safer on shield. Reading through the latest thread on the Marth boards about the patch, they still think he has lackluster neutral pressure, so maybe you should actually understand what you're reading before you claim to be expert of the Marth boards, or provide your own arguments.

Did a quick skim of the previous pages and I literally saw no indication of Roy bashing to praise Marth being a topic. Trying to lie out of your way to justify your bashing I suppose?

Oh really? What's this?

Roy's down throw doesn't have guaranteed combos, they are dependent on DI. Also Roy's F-Smash has a FAF of 55, which means there's 40 frames of endlag.

And this?

Fsmash is waaay overrated and doesn't make up for Roy's problems. It's really not hard to punish... His "better" frame data is only on a few moves and is pretty much irrelevant because it's like two frames at most. Half of Marth's aerials have better frame data, as does his Fsmash. Roy's Dash Attack is garbage for approaching, he can't autocancel his aerials as effectively, Fair is useless for escaping combos due to the startup... And his recovery is dismal.

(interesting how he also said the same thing as you did about bashing characters, when he was the one who bashed Roy in the first place.)

"lie"... Maybe you just didn't want to find anything so you could pretend like you were right.

Stop getting so worked up that someone is talking about the flaws in your main. You don't hear me cursing about like a child because people were talking bad about Roy.

 

[Mario766]

No one wants to learn Roy because why learn him when you can play MK, or Ike.

If you want an actually good swordsman. The new patch made Roy's spacing even worse because sourspots got worse for both Roy and Marth. Roy's sweetspot got better on shield? Who cares, you're still in their face. Marth gets safer sweetspot on shield? That actually MEANS something because he's spacing with tippers. Ike gets safer on shield? Well damn, he can space and if he doesn't space perfectly he's STILL 5-6 frames safer on his aerials.

 

[Jamble]

I main Roy. If anything, he is incredibly overrated, though still a great and very fun character. Roy is IMO the best of the Fire Emblem swordsmen (or at least he's the one I'm best with by a longshot) but not quite as much as people make it out to be. I'm not exactly a pro, but I feel like people make way too much of his Fsmash's power. I find personally, that I almost NEVER get a chance to actually kill with Fsmash against a competent opponent, its range bites and it is just way too predictable to land consistently as a kill move, the same deal goes for his dash attack, which is also predictable and punished with absolute impunity. I usually only get a chance to smash really careless opponents. More often than not, I find myself killing with his aerials, Ftilt, Flare Blade or a Double Edge Dance finisher.

His recovery gets garbage distance, probably one of the few in the game that is not reliable from most distances. Roy really needs to control the center of the stage, and is most easily dealt with when he's forced toward the edge, where he may have to rely on his subpar recovery.

Roy is fast, roy is strong, and has an amazing combo game with great aerials as well, but he has to really keep on you in order to stay effective. Not only does he have to keep on you, but he has to connect with one of his attacks in order to avoid getting punished hard. I struggle most against opponents who know how to punish my approaches. Of course, the flipside is that I have a lot of moves that are strong, quick, with not too much ending lag that let me really play an aggressive pressure games. Roy can throw out quite a few attacks in a fairly short time, any of which will really hurt if they connect. Of course if I DON'T manage to connect, I see a lot of better players than me really capitalize on that. Hard.

Again, this is the perspective of somebody who's not terribly experienced, just a guy who's really enjoyed playing our boy Roy.

 

[Rashyboy05]

The whole Marth boards thinks Marth got safer on shield, not MUCH safer. You're about two frames safer. Still negative. It's safe on shield on tippers, but not on sourspots. It's also extremely unsafe as a poke option. If he whiffs, he still has the same amount of lag as he did before, and will be put in a bad position because of it, meaning it's an unsafe approach, even if it's safer on shield. Reading through the latest thread on the Marth boards about the patch, they still think he has lackluster neutral pressure, so maybe you should actually understand what you're reading before you claim to be expert of the Marth boards, or provide your own arguments.

"About 2 frames safer"

Spoiler

thing | Attack Name | Full Action | Auto Cancel | Landing | Patch Diff
| Neutral Air 1 Sweet | [-38,-39] | [-37,-38] | -8 | 3
| Neutral Air 1 Sour | [-39,-40] | [-38,-39] | -9 | 0
| Neutral Air 2 Sweet | [-21,-27] | [-20,-26] | -5 | 4
| Neutral Air 2 Sour | [-22,-28] | [-21,-27] | -6 | 2
| Forward Air Sweet | [-22,-24] | [-22,-24] | -9 | 4
| Forward Air Sour | [-23,-25] | [-23,-25] | -10 | 2
| Back Air Sweet | [-20,-24] | [-14,-18] | -9 | 4
| Back Air Sour | [-21,-25] | [-15,-19] | -10 | 1
| Up Air Sweet | [-23,-32] | [-17,-26] | -6 | 4
| Up Air Sour | [-24,-33] | [-18,-27] | -7 | 1
| Down Air Sweet | [-36,-40] | [-33,-37] | -14 | 5
| Down Air Sour | [-38,-42] | [-35,-39] | -16 | 1

Courtesy of http://smashboards.com/threads/seizon-senryaku-marth-general.366765/page-72 ~~

Yep. Our sweetspots are totally still unsafe. Yep its only a 2 frame difference. I don't know.. 4-5 framesTell me, what is stopping us from simply using our tippers on shield? I mean, the only reason why we use sour spots in the first place was because they used to be safer than the tippers. Now that tippers are safer, what is stopping us? It's really easy to get tippers once you're used to it.

"He still gets the same amount of lag as before" What is this? Patch 1.06? Where Marth still has **** ending and landing lag? Bruh. We are in Patch 1.10 and Marth's endlag got better at Patch 1.08. Move on!

Oh really what's this?

And this?

I said **** talking about Roy to make Marth sound better. Are any of them true? Yes they are. Pointing out facts is not **** talking. Otherwise provide proof that they aren't true.

Stop getting so worked up that someone is talking about the flaws in your main. You don't hear me cursing about like a child because people were talking bad about Roy.

I can only accept them when they are true. I can accept that his throw combos are mediocre. I can accept that he is bad in this game compared to Brawl and Melee. I can accept that he can get destroyed by top tiers. I can accept that he has bad MUs. Well. You did start this entire brigade just because people talked bad about Roy and this is not just mentioning the fact that you are trying your best to defend Roy while talking down Marth when LancerStaff called you out. So.. who is getting worked up again? All I did was tell you that you are wrong when you say that Marth's Fair isn't safe on shield. You began claiming that I don't know my character just because I said that you don't know Marth. Again, who is the one getting worked up?

 

[Wintropy]

Rashyboy05 , didn't we just agree this isn't the place to debate viability?

Please take it to the competitive impressions thread or something, it's just cluttering this thread. Interesting as this discussion may be, I think we'd rather stay on-topic.

 

[warionumbah2]

No one wants to learn Roy because why learn him when you can play MK, or Ike..

1st time I've ever seen Metaknight thrown in a FE bishie fight.

 

[Joaco]

My main is too weak please buff her ;_;

 

[Rashyboy05]

Rashyboy05 , didn't we just agree this isn't the place to debate viability?

Please take it to the competitive impressions thread or something, it's just cluttering this thread. Interesting as this discussion may be, I think we'd rather stay on-topic.

Eh. I'm just about done with him. If he ever replies, chances are that I wouldn't even care about what he says at this point. He's clearly biased to his main so I'm just going to drop out on this thread.

My main is too weak please buff her ;_;

I don't remember a top tier character being "too weak" unless your just joking, of course. I do agree that her damage output is abysmal, however, but I won't even think of making her moves deal more damage until her Needles and Fair stops being stupid,

 

[Kokiri.Hylian]

I'll be honest. Toon Link is underrated. But I switched mains. Marth and Sheik to me aren't underrated. I, know I'm being a band wagoner....

 

[Pherae77]

"About 2 frames safer"

Spoiler

thing | Attack Name | Full Action | Auto Cancel | Landing | Patch Diff
| Neutral Air 1 Sweet | [-38,-39] | [-37,-38] | -8 | 3
| Neutral Air 1 Sour | [-39,-40] | [-38,-39] | -9 | 0
| Neutral Air 2 Sweet | [-21,-27] | [-20,-26] | -5 | 4
| Neutral Air 2 Sour | [-22,-28] | [-21,-27] | -6 | 2
| Forward Air Sweet | [-22,-24] | [-22,-24] | -9 | 4
| Forward Air Sour | [-23,-25] | [-23,-25] | -10 | 2
| Back Air Sweet | [-20,-24] | [-14,-18] | -9 | 4
| Back Air Sour | [-21,-25] | [-15,-19] | -10 | 1
| Up Air Sweet | [-23,-32] | [-17,-26] | -6 | 4
| Up Air Sour | [-24,-33] | [-18,-27] | -7 | 1
| Down Air Sweet | [-36,-40] | [-33,-37] | -14 | 5
| Down Air Sour | [-38,-42] | [-35,-39] | -16 | 1

Courtesy of http://smashboards.com/threads/seizon-senryaku-marth-general.366765/page-72 ~~

Yep. Our sweetspots are totally still unsafe. Yep its only a 2 frame difference. I don't know.. 4-5 framesTell me, what is stopping us from simply using our tippers on shield? I mean, the only reason why we use sour spots in the first place was because they used to be safer than the tippers. Now that tippers are safer, what is stopping us? It's really easy to get tippers once you're used to it.

"He still gets the same amount of lag as before" What is this? Patch 1.06? Where Marth still has **** ending and landing lag? Bruh. We are in Patch 1.10 and Marth's endlag got better at Patch 1.08. Move on!


I said **** talking about Roy to make Marth sound better. Are any of them true? Yes they are. Pointing out facts is not **** talking. Otherwise provide proof that they aren't true.

I can only accept them when they are true. I can accept that his throw combos are mediocre. I can accept that he is bad in this game compared to Brawl and Melee. I can accept that he can get destroyed by top tiers. I can accept that he has bad MUs. Well. You did start this entire brigade just because people talked bad about Roy and this is not just mentioning the fact that you are trying your best to defend Roy while talking down Marth when LancerStaff called you out. So.. who is getting worked up again? All I did was tell you that you are wrong when you say that Marth's Fair isn't safe on shield. You began claiming that I don't know my character just because I said that you don't know Marth. Again, who is the one getting worked up?

Oh, my, goodness. I said 2, it's actually 3-4. Big difference. And it's not 4-5... Down air is not something you should be approaching with. It's 3-4. You're still missing the point that because of the lag, you're giving up position when you throw them, even if you're not getting punished. And if you whiff, whew, even worse. That's not a proper poke in the neutral.

And yes, Marth still has **** lag. Even after 1.06. You realize that patch only decreased his lag by a couple frames? Hardly enough to make much of a difference lmfao. Did you not know that? Wow some Marth main huh. Going by your understanding of Marth right now (completely safe and lagless aerials) he should be high tier.

What i'm saying about Marth is true. Just because you can't accept it, doesn't mean it's not. I could easily debate that what was said about Roy isn't true as well if I wanted to. That wasn't a very good argument. You're a hypocrite, admit it. You can do wrong.

I'm getting worked up? I'm calm here arguing with actual arguments, while you are just spitting out curse words and telling me to check the Marth boards because you yourself have no idea what you're talking about. Nice try. If someone comes at me, i'm going to respond. That doesn't mean i'm getting worked up. Understand? It's how you respond that's what makes you seem worked up.

Anyway you're clearly a hothead who doesn't really have an actual grasp about Marth's changes, so I hope we can end this here. Maybe you can go back to the Marth boards and actually grasp an understanding of the neutral. (and learn what Marth's changes actually were, since you seem to have thought his lag was greatly reduced in a previous patch.) If you want to respond to this, @me in another more suited for this.

 

[SherrdreamZ]

Hah, Lucina and Zelda aren't underrated. they are bottom tier because they have more faults then strengths. I find them fun because they straight up require you to outplay your opponent in the neutral, aswell as be less predictable. If someone is at a similar skill level playing a High/Top Tier character i just try to give them a run for there money. but even outplaying them might only net a 50% damage buffer, whereas most of them can do that in one combo. Which is why i really love the rage mechanic, Things tend to even out after my combo food status has expired so it gives you a shot to fight back 30% of the time against an opponent of relatively equal skill.

The endlag on Luci/Marth is greater than most moves on Pikachu, Shiek, ZSS, Sonic and oddly enough Rosalina. Zelda is even worse but she packs a bigger whollop with proper spacing. Anyways either one leaves you with little options but to attempt to outplay your opponent which is fine with me. Much Love to Low Tier Mains of all kinds ^_^ I think im going to learn Rosa/Luma or Peach more before i dash off to any Regionals!

 

[Sol Squid]

...

My main is too weak please buff her ;_;

 

[Boomstick720]

I think Shulk is severely underrated in almost every tier list I've seen.

I'm not delusional enough to think he is top tier material, as much as I'd like him to be though, since his terrible frame data hurts him immensely in terms of viability.

That being said, Shulk is unique in that he can simultaneously become one of the fastest, most maneuverable, most damaging, and most resistant characters in the game at any given point in time, and the use of MALLC ensures that he can do so while putting himself at little risk. He can take both a defensive and aggressive role with proper art utilization, and constant switching can make it extremely difficult for all but the best characters to keep up with him. Combining this with very good range, strong hits (two uncharged buster fsmashes do over 50%), a decent anti aerial game, and the increased shield stun buff puts Shulk in a very powerful position, with only one consistent weakness throughout his entire playstyle.

However, that one weakness, being his frame data, is truly the only thing that keeps him out of top tier. So pervasive is this frame data weakness that it leads to other weaknesses, such as being easily combo'd in the air and difficulty in punishing certain characters.

Despite all this, I would put Shulk firmly in mid-B tier. Without the Monado arts, he is barely a high D tier character, but with them, he is given so many options that to put him below even mid C tier is just crazy.

Oh and first post so... yay?

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

Well for underrated depends. If we're comparing to like let's say . Yeah WFT is fairly underrated compared to ZSS but if we're comparing to a barely used character like then WFT isn't really underrated compared to Samus.

Viability?
She can be viable if you can make it work. WFT requires a good amount of dedication to make viable since she's in the middle. She's grown more viable due to those buffs she received increasing her knockback growth a lot. Healing buffs always help as well. So yes I'd consider her viable but it depends how you see her and it's not like Sheik were she's automatically viable WFT will take work.

 

[randa20]

My main is Zelda and i feel like she's so underrated because her moves, when they connect, can be deadly. I think im a pretty good Zelda since she has been my main since melee. Im very happy with the improvements with her character!