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Tech skill or Practical skill?

Mr.Fakeman

Mr.Fakeman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
382
I think sheik is an alright character, but I just don't enjoy playing sheik like I do with Fox.
PS: Reverse JCshine Bair kicks butt hardcore!
 
brg

brg

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
545
Sveet said:
@brg, its totally true. maybe at much lower levels of skill it works, but if you played me and couldnt l cancel or wd, i wouldn't even have to play mindgames i would just exploit the fact that all your moves will have lots of lag and that your ground mobility would be nothing. i could literally stand in 1 spot and you wouldn't be able to do anything. if i started moving, you couldnt defend yourself. you couldn't move or act in a way that would throw me off guard or get through my defenses (unless, maybe, if you played sheik)
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I do lcancel and wd

however the base of "mindgames" is either:
1) predicting what your opponent will do
2) predicting your opponents reaction to you actions

lancelling and wavedashing is not magic:
predictable patterns are predictable, be they fast or not

even if youre fast with whoever, if I know you are going to approach a certain way, it is not hard to simply walk away and force you to close in (since you need a certain minimal and maximal distance from your opponent to do your approach)
not sure if im explaining correctly here, but higher movement *potential* does not automatically translate into mindgames
like if you start dash dancing, i know youre trying to fake me out for an opportunity to grab/shffl/whatever. A good smasher, with or without wavedash, will see that and not give the opponent the satisfaction of throwing out a useless attack that will leave him open.

Of course, advanced techs do have their own application from a mindgame point of view, but the underlying principle remains the same.
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
in melee there are a lot of things you can do that when spaced correctly they aren't punishable.

As far as you approaching, it would be impossible without WD or lcancel. every time you dashed it would mean you were forced to commit to the dash until you get a hit or get hit. you can't change your mind or try to fake me out with an approach. if you tried to use any air attack (normally the safest moves) you would get easily shield grabbed or punish without being able to lcancel.

i could mindlessly throw my sword out in places to cut off your options then let you TRY to do something. even if you did get a hit i wouldn't get comboed. its like no risk mindless win.
 
brg

brg

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
545
Sveet said:
in melee there are a lot of things you can do that when spaced correctly they aren't punishable.

As far as you approaching, it would be impossible without WD or lcancel. every time you dashed it would mean you were forced to commit to the dash until you get a hit or get hit. you can't change your mind or try to fake me out with an approach. if you tried to use any air attack (normally the safest moves) you would get easily shield grabbed or punish without being able to lcancel.

i could mindlessly throw my sword out in places to cut off your options then let you TRY to do something. even if you did get a hit i wouldn't get comboed. its like no risk mindless win.
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The reason i dont fully agree is because i get the impression you are saying "Any offensive maneuver that does not involve l-cancel and/or wavedash is doomed to failure" which is not really true

for example dashing towards a shielding opponent and doing a crossover dash attack or running past them, then dash cancel f smash if they do something OoS. These things wouldnt work if spammed, but used sparingly they do, and they dont really involve tech skill, just conditionning of your opponent (for example: he sees a dash attack his reflex is to grab) and your capability to read this conditionning

edit: another example is shield poking with jabs and tilts (certain characters are better at this than others ofc)
but if spaced and timed correctly, a shieldgrab will end up being interrupted by a jab followed by grab/smash etc
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
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Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
who shield grabs? who sits in their shield when someone approaches?

say i do sit in my shield and you come running at me. your best bet is to actually grab me, not do any of that other bull**** you said. if you hit anyone's shield you will be punished, unless you space well and leave as little lag as possible.

Go ahead, cross over dash attack my shield. i'll take the dair oos->**** every single time without complaint.
Go ahead, spam tilts on my shield. i'll retreating fair oos every time without complaint.
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
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how do you play this game if you can't waveland? its like limiting your character's options. every time you jump, if you dont waveland, you say to your opponent "ok i'm coming down right here, hit me!". and if you mix in double jumps its like "ok i'm coming down now... PSYCH! now hit me once and i die!"
 
brg

brg

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
545
Sveet said:
who shield grabs? who sits in their shield when someone approaches?

say i do sit in my shield and you come running at me. your best bet is to actually grab me, not do any of that other bull**** you said. if you hit anyone's shield you will be punished, unless you space well and leave as little lag as possible.

Go ahead, cross over dash attack my shield. i'll take the dair oos->**** every single time without complaint.
Go ahead, spam tilts on my shield. i'll retreating fair oos every time without complaint.
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hmm hugs is a pretty good example of what im saying

he uses shield poking very well, and his defensive spacing is such that movement tricks arent that effective against him

And you ARE going to shield at one point, and so will your opponent lol
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
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Location
Northern IL
you realize that hugs uses WD almost exclusively right? his strategy works because of his incredible spacing.

and again, you're talking about people playing on the same skill level. If i can wd/do tech stuff and you can't.... its not the same skill level.

what are you going to do to my shield if you can't lcancel? the best thing you can do is hit my shield with a spaced tilt (if you're not grabbing), because any aerial spaced or not will give me enough time to punish you oos.
 
Deathgazer

Deathgazer

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
534
Location
England Milton Keynes
My opinion on this:
you can have good mindgames with basic tech skills
when you improve on tech skills, it allows you to have more options and therefore more mindgames
 
MarioMariox2

MarioMariox2

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
775
Location
???
NNID
KunehoKun
3DS FC
0748-3131-6459
Sveet said:
how do you play this game if you can't waveland? its like limiting your character's options. every time you jump, if you dont waveland, you say to your opponent "ok i'm coming down right here, hit me!". and if you mix in double jumps its like "ok i'm coming down now... PSYCH! now hit me once and i die!"
Click to expand...
PC drops; That new technique w/ samus/yoshi where you AxA and it's supposedly faster than PC dropping; L-Cancelled Fastfalled aerials; pass the platform, grab the ledge.
 
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