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Tech chasing like a man, complete breakdown.

Discussion in 'Captain Falcon' started by gravy, Dec 12, 2014.

  1. gravy

    gravy
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    Smash Ace

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    When I test tech chase ideas in the lab, I look for qualifications that would make them possible by a human standard. This generally means that you must have around 15 frames to react to the stimuli needed, and there can't be any "extraordinary" executional requirements.


    An example of an extraordinary requirement would be trying to do pivot ledge grabs. This technique is so difficult that being frame perfect isn't good enough, you also need to be perfectly spaced in relation to the ledge, on top of using a consistent dash speed. Because of this, I just don't think mastering this is possible.


    However, almost any sequence of button presses I will believe to be possible, even when it's required to be close to perfect. I think people overplay how hard "frame perfect" is. Knee only has three frames of a strong hitbox, so unless I'm missing something, just jumping and hitting it alone is a three frame link in many cases. Anyways, I'm starting to ramble, these are my actual findings:


    I think tech chase regrabs are not the future. That's some sheik **** and we don't need to play like her.


    I think falcon has 4 major and distinct tech chases, and this is how they are set up.


    1. PURELY MECHANICAL TECH CHASE can be set up by using aerials to cover tech in place, and then using dash JC grab to cover the rolls. You will only be able to cover tech roll away if it's cut off by the ledge in this scenario. In order to make it airtight, you have to aim to hit the first frame of tech vulnerability as you're landing with the knee/bair/uair. I think that this is very difficult to do with knee, but it is still very worth going for, because frame perfect evasion from your opponent is also rare. The way that I practice tightening up my timing is by doing my setup and trying to pause (in debug mode) either on the frame the character lands, or on their first frame of vulnerability. You can also just try to do the knee and pause to see how well you timed it. If you can get it consistently timed, I don't think that the l cancel and grab input should be that hard.





    The second tech chase is the PURE REACTION TECH CHASE.. This will commonly be set up by just using wavedash or DASH WAVEDASH*** after your throw. You want to position, especially vs spacies, to be outside their shine range and still within your grab range. This means you are trying to react to their trajectory and predict where they will land. Once you do this, you are in a very repetitive scenario.


    This is the breakdown of a reaction based tech chase.


    Frame 1: the character has done nothing to distinguish it's action, unless it has missed the tech. Therefore, the miss tech actually has a slightly larger reaction window than miss tech.


    Frame 2: The spacies begin to distinguish which option they have chosen. For tech in place, the character appears to be doing a split, and in real time it almost looks like he has three legs. You can register that they are opposite of each other and swinging towards each other. When doing a tech roll, the spacie appears to be gathering momentum for a roll, and his legs are clenched together instead of spread.


    Frame 3-16: these frames need to be spent positioning yourself in the spot I previously outlined. It you got close early via a wavedash you can use a walk or a dash pivot to make the spacing perfect, but you MUST be aware of how time is progressing, and you must be watching the space animal carefully.


    Frame 17: this is the last frame that you can still jab miss tech on a space animal. The good news is that if you jab later and miss, you will probably be able to cover their miss tech option anyhow. When tech chasing a miss tech, you just pay attention to which direction the spacies feet are facing. They will always swing towards their feet first, and then behind them. If you are in front of their feet, you can react to ANY NEUTRAL MOVEMENT with a shield. This is actually the hardest reaction in this whole thread, and yet somehow, this is the one I'm best at. Anyways, after shielding you can simply option select a grab for neutral stand (if you press a at the right time the shield stun of get up attack will swallow your input, while the same input will grab the neutral stand.) The three options that I find valuable out of powershield are knee, raptor boost, and kill moves like dsmash or fsmash (they're all the same basically.) It is quite hard to be able to do this while still being able to grab the miss tech rolls, but I think that it is possible, and I am able to do it pretty often. Now, if you get a jab reset you're going to turn their feet away from you no matter what. If you are feeling scared or bad then you can just wait in front of them and react, because the second hit of get up attack can only be shield grabbed or powershield gentleman/tilted. If you're feeling like a baller squirrel with all them winter nuts, you can pivot behind the spacie so your powershield options are unlocked again. Since you know the time he has to act by after getting jab resetted, I would rank this tech chase, even with the pivot, as VERY EZ. Anyways, I wanted to outline the miss tech options, but we're moving on to the important stuff.


    Frame 18: in general I think this is the frame you should choose to act by, but you don't technically have to. However, in order to grab tech in place you need to grab by this time. You should be spacing a standing grab at max range already, so make sure you're simplifying it down to only pressing "z." If you jump cancel, you're making it more difficult to hit the right timing. Grabbing tech in place is, in my opinion, the second most difficult part of my entire tech chase (8/10) but I have seen many people do it, so I guess I suck.


    There is one more option that just be completed by this time frame to succeed, but I personally recommend very strongly against this because it is the hardest option and not rewarding enough to justify. Anyways, the option is to dash back, instantly jump, and instant stomp. If executed perfectly, it will work. But again, just don't.


    Frame 19: This is the frame that you would have to act to do dash FORWARD, instant jump, instant stomp. In doing so, you would hit the spacies tech roll away. This is actually relatively forgiving despite the tight execution and timing, because the stomp hitbox will hit them no matter how low their profile is (until the last two frames of a tech roll the spacies have not stood up, extremely low profile.) I would rank this tech chase option as 6/10 difficulty.


    Frame 20: This is the frame that you would need to start a jump in order to cover tech roll back. If you are disciplined In your spacing, a pull back stomp will hit the roll. Due to the fact that the only execution required is to hold back and hit the timing of stomp, I would rate this tech chase as 4/10, very ez.


    You could do a harder option at this time, but if you want to do it I would only recommend doing vs falco, and if you're standing on top of him. You can dash backwards into a jump knee, but this knee is really high so would likely not hit fox, but falcos tech roll and height are extremely susceptible to knee. This is definitely one of the harder options, but worth expanding into once you've mastered the stomp


    Frame 21: this is your important frame for covering tech roll away. Assuming you spaced at grab range vs fox, if you dash and instant knee you'll make him regret **** talking falcon. Vs falco you can stand on top of tech in place and still hit this, but the spacing is very strict for fox, because he is short and closer to you.


    The second option that also rocks tech away is fsmash, but this of course only works if they are near the ledge. This is of course the easiest of them all due to the lack if execution, I would rate 1/10 ur mom easy.


    Frame 22: you messed up or you didn't have time because you stomped a tech roll and they teched again. Your only remaining option is to grab tech rolls, but that ain't so bad I guess.


    Things to note: if I list an option after frame 18 that means you have that much more leniency for your inputs (ie knee on tech roll away let's you mess up for a total of three frames, inherently making it better.)


    Of course any time you're able to save by reacting faster also makes this easier, and you can go for harder options. Moving on...





    HYBRID TECH CHASE


    If you hit the early frames of a miss tech, you get to cover that option for free. Think about it, you can just pick up where I started listing frame 18 as long as you are free to act and properly positioned at that point. Your knee is 9 frames of l cancel, so if you hit frame 1-9 of miss tech you can still grab tech in place and auto knee tech rolls. This is strong because it's very easy to tell what option they chose if knee doesn't hit, especially tech in place (wtf my knee hit but he's not screaming wat, must be tech in place.)


    Stomp is 12 frames of lag so you would need to adjust by hitting earlier of course. Similarly, jab essentially has 12 frames of "lag," because it hits on 3 and can be dash or jumped out of on 15. That means you can also jab miss tech for free from 1-6, and still knee the rolls grab the tech etc. if you want to do fsmash you'll have to dash pivot fsmash, but I recommend simply kneeing or stomping instead.


    Alright, next chapter




    ULTIMATE GOD LEVEL REACTION TECH CHASE


    Now this tech chase I think will only be implemented by a falcon god, but it's only difficult because you have to have perfect positioning. In reality, the positioning allows your reactions to be slower. This also would only work in confined spaces (near edge or on platform.)


    All you have to do is time your jump so that if the character techs in place, you can fast fall uair them. I think this is actually better than normal because they are likely to miss the tech lol scrubs. Of course you would need to react to miss tech with the same uair, but if you're late you can apply easy miss tech punishes to their roll or get up options, because uair l cancel is very short.


    Once you're good at that positioning and reaction, then it should be natural to replace fast fall and uair with drifting towards them with knee or stomp. This will cover a platform tech roll easily, because aerial mobility is so good.


    This is obviously cutting a lot of frames (knee on tech roll away becomes a 14 frame option instead of a 19 frame, uair is 1 frame faster than grab, etc) and simplifying your execution, and it also has near maxed out power so this is the omega tech chase.


    I am very uncertain as to whether you can space this against the ledge, I haven't used real science, but it is definitely real on platforms. Also, if it works near ledge it's going to be easier vs fox, which is pretty cool.





    So in summary, this is how I believe a human falcon should tech chase (if I was tas I would just raptor boost always.) I'm going to push to be the first to master this, of course, but here's to hoping someone does.


    I focused on spacies mostly but you can do this to any character technically, just learn how their tech roll lengths forces you to adapt your options. Vs sheik knee is ez breezy because her tech Is long and she's tall.
     
  2. Yort

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    OMG thanks Gravy

    plz get a capture card soon and start streaming your lab work. :).
     
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  3. Zoler

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    Tech chasing is so underdeveloped generally with most characters. Interesting post!
     
  4. Morbellix

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    Gravy is a god, all the gay peach players want him and all the captain falcon players want to be him.
     
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  5. tm

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    You the man. Keep it up, be the god.
    **** on those animals.
     
  6. Stratocaster

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    Hey here's a few things to complement your guide.

    First what to look in reaction tech chase animations. I'm giving frame 3 rather than 2 here because I think the difference between the roll in and in place animations on frame 2 are so similar that you couldn't differentiate between them in real time anyway.

    Tech Frame 3
    [​IMG]

    Tech Roll In Frame 3 (technically "forward")
    [​IMG]

    Tech Roll Away Frame 3 (technically back, but is almost always the "away" option)
    One thing notable here is the blue flash is missing that is in the last two. So if you can tech chase on reaction for the blue flash you could tech chase this by reacting to frame 1.
    [​IMG]

    Missed Tech
    [​IMG]

    Next I'll illustrate the difference between being on the head or feet side of a downed spacey.

    Laying on his back
    [​IMG]
    His first hit is directed towards where his feet where.
    [​IMG]

    Laying on his stomach
    [​IMG]
    Same thing, he hits towards his feet first.
    [​IMG]

    Being on the head side gives you more time to react with shield or even to SH dair him which can go over the attack and hit him if you space it slightly on the opposite side of where his hit will be. or sometimes it works for me if I just time it right directly over him. You can only do the options select gravy talks about though if you are on the feet side, which is a hard reaction, but covers normal get-up.

    One more thing.
    You mention jab reset and then covering the get-up attack with a pivot shield or something. If you jab them, you eliminate get-up attack as in option though. They can only stand or roll.
     
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  7. gravy

    gravy
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    Strato, I really liked your post.

    However, I claimed that they get up attack because I know that they do it to me, it happens in practice! However, I have not tested the reason or method for replicating it.... But the 20xx spacie does it quite frequently.

    When I'm on the side of the second hit, I shield grab or do ps ftilt/dtilt.


    When I'm on the side of the first hit the most important things are ps raptor boost, fsmash, and knee oos.

    Strato that blue flash is crazzzzzy. Will you please message me on fb (Dustin white) about this?
     
    tm likes this.
  8. AirFair

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    Marth tho

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    Didn't know how far techchasing could be taken. Great read! (c wat i did ther)
     
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  9. ElRudo

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    There is a typo in the orignal post in the pure reaction part.
    Miss tech tech has a larger reaction window than miss tech? lol

    Except that, I'm so glad this exists. Gravy, I'm a big fan. I love to see you play! Definitely an inspiration for my Falcon so I'll read this and think it through.
     
    #9 ElRudo, Dec 13, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2014
  10. kyaputenfarukon07

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  11. gravy

    gravy
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    #11 gravy, Dec 14, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2014
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  12. Nicco

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    Very interesting, but I'm not truly a believer of this. Grabbing tech in place is already super hard, but reacting with aerials, while being prepared to grab in place and also jab reset is just crazy.

    I just dash dance on either side of the spacie after a throw, and then I can cover 2/3 options with grab and try to bait someting out of them if they went for that 1/3 that I didn't cover.
     
  13. tauKhan

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    This is an amazing thread! A minor note to the op:
    I think strong knee is often more than 3 frames window, since you are often moving with a similar trajectory to your opponent, and will be at a spot where the strong knee hits for longer than 3 frames. The 3 frames length means that you can't do the knee too early, but you can often be in a spot where the knee hits for longer time.

    3 frame window is also much, much easier to hit than a 1 frame window. It's very hard to time some things frame perfectly consistently. To give people an idea, try firefox stalling in the brinstar lava, or hitting nair -> shine combo on crouching fox with fox at 0%, and that one isn't even frame perfect I believe.

    I believe @gravy is correct in this one:
    Also maybe you could link that magus post to your compendium, I don't think it's there yet.
     
    #13 tauKhan, Dec 14, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2014
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  14. Stratocaster

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    Yeah I actually have that post bookmarked. I was surprised because I've tried to do it the past and couldn't even in debug. Well Iearned you have to input the getup attack on frame 13 or later. You can't just hold A like you can hold to either side to roll. I think the frame window varies and requires more testing. I have never seen a player get-up attack out of a jab reset.
     
  15. gravy

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    I may consider trying to learn how to jump over second hit of get up attack, that sounds sick actually.

    I will update this with more info after I fix my phone.
     
  16. Lykon

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    Thanks for the infooo :p
     
  17. eskimoparade

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    when falcos tech in place they yell, but do not when rolling,, this makes a regrab on tech in place super easy if you can just time it to the yell.
     
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  18. gravy

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    Shaaack, Aceflight and Mystic- like this.
  19. victra♥

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    crystal skies

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    omg Gravy you finally got around to making that god bless
     
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  20. gravy

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    It was like two days!
     
  21. He-Man1

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    This info is sick. A couple questions:

    What do you do if they smash DI the jab reset (pop up)?

    How big is the frame window to knee tech in place > grab tech roll in compared to uair tech in place > grab tech roll in?
     
  22. Stratocaster

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    This got me excited for like a few seconds and I was like "how did I not notice that?" but I tried it out and it's definitely not true.

    Gravy you do know that some of these things are DI / % / Throw dependent right? Like you can't do a knee and react to a grab at lower percents and especially with DI away. It's basically just an issue of how many frames you have before you they hit the ground. If they are at lower percent or DI away (or in if it's an up throw DI in too) then they hit the ground sooner which means you have less time to do an aerial to cover tech in place before the roll. I think these things are super good, but only if you know you can fit in the knee/uair. Also you mention the landing lag of the uair is low so you can follow up after, but I think it's very doable to react to their option by either doing the uair for an in-place option or just leaving it as an empty hop which saves you a few valuable frames. I've been practicing it like that and it's pretty good.

    I never knew knee tech away and stomp tech roll in where within reasonable reaction time. I gotta learn that.
     
  23. hectohertz

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    i <3 u gravy
     
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  24. gravy

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    If they smash DI the resets, I recommend going for reactionary coverage of their miss tech options instead of doing the jab reset.

    Knee is one frame and uair is three frames. However, if you can use non fast fall aerials to cover these, you can increase the window by reacting to a tech roll with an earlier fast fall.
     
  25. Equal

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    grats on the sticky. definitely gonna need to study this hard.
     
  26. Devilsbabe

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    I was under the impression that if I wd in after a spacie di-away on a dthrow, I don't have time to react to a tech in place. Apparently I don't have enough posts to give you a link but it's in one of S2J's posts in the index thread
     
  27. schmooblidon

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    Did some testing for a friend about which throw to use at different percents for the most of amount of time to react/read a tech-

    (damage% is after throw damage except 0%) - (I haven't considered staling so bare that in mind)

    When do they need to tech -
    Falco - [Dthrow (0% - 200%+), Fthrow (38% - 200%+), Upthrow (0%- ~90%), Bthrow (49%-150%+) ]

    (technically with upthrow falco can jump out at 70% but it's frame perfect, 90% is more realistic)

    How many frames from falcons first actionable frame and falco's first tech frame-

    Lowest percents
    Upthrow 0% - 1 frames
    Dthrow 0% - 7 frames
    Fthrow 38% - minus 2
    Bthrow 49% - minus 6

    50%
    Upthrow 50% - 10 frames
    Dthrow 50% - 10 frames

    90%
    Upthrow 90% - 20 frames
    Dthrow 90% - 13 frames

    As you can see Dthrow starts as the better option, but after 50% upthrow becomes better.

    Falco tech in place - 26 frames - tangible on frame 21
    tech roll - 40 frames - tangible on frame 21


    When do they need to tech -
    Fox - [Dthrow (0% - 200%+), Fthrow (38% - 150%+), Upthrow (0%- ~85%), Bthrow (50%-120%) ]

    (technically with upthrow falco can jump out at 65% but it's frame perfect, 85% is more realistic)

    How many frames from falcons first actionable frame and falco's first tech frame-

    Lowest percents
    Upthrow 0% - minus 1 frame
    Dthrow 0% - 4 frames
    Fthrow 38% - minus 5 frames
    Bthrow 50% - minus 8 frames

    50%
    Upthrow 50% - 9 frames
    Dthrow 50% - 9 frames

    85%
    Upthrow 85% - 20 frames
    Dthrow 85% - 12 frames

    As you can see Dthrow starts as the better option, but after 50% upthrow becomes better.

    Fox tech in place - 26 frames - tangible on frame 21
    tech roll - 40 frames - tangible on frame 21
     
    #27 schmooblidon, Jan 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2015
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  28. Dan -Zodiac-

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    Being able to follow a flow chart with that 15 frame reaction time you mentioned is pretty crazy. I can definitely imagine getting to the point where you can react to 2 of 3 potential stimuli consistently way before you can react to all 3, as it probably gets exponentially harder.

    I'm very interested in this though, about ready to pull the trigger and dump tons of hours into it.

    Edit: Also, would someone kindly upload images of the frame 3 stills for Fox's tech options?
     
    #28 Dan -Zodiac-, Jan 15, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2015
  29. Stratocaster

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    They are literally the exact same positions as the Falco ones I posted. Just imagine Fox's head on there instead of Falco's.
     
  30. Dan -Zodiac-

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    Yeah I thought that was probably it, but just wanted to make sure. Thanks.
     
  31. Nicco

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    A little suggestion here. Reacting to tech in place with a grab, while being ready to stomp in or knee away is pretty tricky. I suggest reacting to tech in place with a nair, which will also cover shine/spotdodge and alot of other things. All you gotta look out for is CC, but that's not too hard to get around really.
     
  32. KrustyKurt

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    A thought!

    If we are focusing on purely reactionary tech chases, I.E covering all options with a knee or stomp, then we have to learn to not focus on reads and focus on knowing which option they have selected as soon as possible.

    To that end I have been using training mode in 20xx and just down throwing space animals, and as soon as i know what they did, i say it out loud or in my head using either "Tech" "Out" "In" or "Miss" to make it easy. I don't chase them or attempt to do anything. This is a warmp up to put you in the right mindset to practice reactionary tech chases. It works to speed your ability to identify what they are doing. Theoretically, if we are perfect at this, reads are not necessary, right? So having the voice in your head before they even do anything that says "In!" is not doing you any favors, and we should be focusing on watching what they do.
     
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  33. oksas

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    ^ that is such a great idea. I will definitely be doing this in the future. I messed around the other day just to see if I would be able to react based on the blue/lack of blue fx in techrolls pointed out by Stratocaster, but it's really hard for me to detect at full speed, seemed ok doing it in half speed though. I'm hoping with practice it's possible to develop a keen eye for it
     
  34. Bu$

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    Tech chasing falco harder than fox on reaction? feels likes it's harder but idk.
     
  35. j3ly

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    cracking information
     
  36. M-Tude

    M-Tude
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    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2014
    Messages:
    66
    Hey Gravy, I've been wondering about platform tech chases. You said in your critique of Hax falcon that he should have covered two platform options with a rising stomp around 24:57. Could you make a frame data video of that? I'm a bit confused by it.
     
    #36 M-Tude, Mar 21, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2015
  37. _trix_

    _trix_
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    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    138
    Location:
    Chicago
    Once spacies are at the percent were stomp to knee is certain death, I believe the bet option is to either A.) do what you said and grab tech in place and stomp roll foward or backwards B.) SH immideatly and then if they tech in place you can do stomp(10 frame reaction, if they are frame perfect. This is equally as difficult as raptor boosting tech in place, but I can do it like 70% and I'm a noob, so I see no reason why falcon gods can't do this) or do a knee(12 frame reaction, if they're frame perfect). If they roll you simply neglect to do any aerial and instead fast fall and dash JC grab. If they don't tech you would have to just react and Regrab them. So using a mix of these two options you have about a 50% chance(if you have absolutely no read on their rolls) to get a down air, and a 50% chance to get a Regrab. Basically repeat this until you guess correctly, it will only take you 1 Regrab on average to get the stomp you need.
     
    #37 _trix_, Jul 13, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
  38. _trix_

    _trix_
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    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    138
    Location:
    Chicago
    Anyone that has a 10 frame reaction time can basically break falcon in my opinion. With 11 frame reaction time you can raptor boost wherever they go on reaction. And with 10 frame reaction time you have a garunteed stomp(assuming you don't miss the Regrabs, you will get a stomp immideatly 50% of the time first try, 75% of the time by your second and so on, making it basically garunteed).
     
    General Heinz likes this.
  39. Dnae

    Dnae
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    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2014
    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    South jordan, UT
    3DS FC:
    0104-2706-5564
    Thank you based gravy :falconmelee:
     
  40. Sirocco

    Sirocco
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    Smash Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2015
    Messages:
    17
    The hardest part of the tech chase is easily the positioning, but the reaction itself is pretty simple. As long you are in the right spot, everything seems to work out. After throwing I always try to aim my dash wavedash to where that little spark that signals a tech would be. That in itself is another reaction, so we always have two reactions to make. I'm getting pretty decent results against Fox, Falco and Sheik, who would be the most important characters to have it against. Sheik is particularly tricky since you have to be ready to regrab bad DI and tech chase away DI. Her tech rolls seemed impossible at first, given how fast and long they are. But they are still 40 frames long, like spacies, and Falcon is fast enough to hit them on reaction. The issue is just that Sheik doesn't give any good visual stimuli on her techs. They all seem to look the same at first. But it is still doable. IMO, dash back instant aerial is absolutely worth mastering and I'm pretty sure you need it for Falco and Sheik. Dash back is a difficult tech to get right, but I think I'm getting way better at it. I'm hitting dash back instant stomp pretty often. I don't even know how I'm able to get these reactions at all honestly, because as an insomniac of many years in theory my reaction time should be garbage. So I figure anyone should be able to do this as long as they practice it.
     

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