Taking My Game to the Next Level (4th Edition)

SCOTU · Aug 8, 2007

Ok, here are the vids that i said i had like a week ago. I don't have much time to link them individually, so just pick some random one and go at it if you want.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=82707+SSBM+5th+Column+Scotu+fox

I also have some vids from a tourney yesterday, which will be up within the week.

More vids! Selection is very limited this time, it was from a local tournament, and i only got 2 matches recorded.

SCOTU vs Jackel (ganon)
SCOTU vs Randizzle (sheik) (1st & 3rd Games only, 2nd game is my CF. Feel free to watch/ comment it, but basically, i get owned - and this is the fox boards).

Last Update (Vids from 8/12/07)

Got some vids up from a smashfest this last sunday. Please forgive some obvious technical errors, My tech skill wasn't fully on. (as in, you might notice some missing wavshines because i pressed the wavedash button during hitlag/ turnaroudlag, etc...). I'd much appreciate advice on what i should start paying attention to while playing. I see it kinda like learning to drive. I've got it down where i watch for stop signs, but not great at noticing that some guy is an *** hole and likely to cut me off at any time. So, I'd appreciate suggestions on things i should start picking up on. Ok, onto the vids... (please appologize for the dumbness/ repettiveness of the audio... i had massive desynching issues, and i just randomly had some 1 hr long techno remix, that i repeated 3 times, put on top of the video, and then split the matches).

vs Anther (fox) 1
vs Anther (pika) 1
vs Anther (pika) 2
vs Mikey (peach) 1
vs Mikey (zelda) 2
vs Randizzle (marth) 1
vs Randizzle (marth) 2 (for some reason, i really like this one. Fun to watch)
vs Randizzle (marth) 3

Got some more against marth's since i have a few marth mains critiquing...

Original Post (Vids from 8/4/07):

If anyone could give me advice for taking my game to the next level, please share it! Feel free to give any sort of constructive advice/ criticism. I'm especially looking for advice for my mental game, strategies, tactics, mindgames, etc... Please help identify bad patterns, so I can break them. Suggestions on new techniques, strategies, tactics, etc... that I could try would also be greatly appreciated. Even if you don't really have/ want anything to say, check out the vids, some of them are pretty fun to watch. Please keep in mind that I am no Silent Wolf (but I probably have the tech skill for any suggestions).

All Vids (searchable) Here

Oskurito · Aug 8, 2007

vs. Anther(first match posted)

I noticed that all of your approaches are almost always nair, you should use others for example dair, jab or shine approaches (wavedash>jab ; wavedash>shine), jab comboes into dtilt, grab, up smash or uptilt if your close enough to your opponent(basicly jab comboes into almost anything) ftilt is always good for keeping them away.. and regarding to the wavedash>shine approach you can always JC into grab if your opponent shields it or wavedash and retreat. Nair combos into dair>jab>up smash just need to point that out for you... and pika can be thunder's comboed but not sure if it's possible in yoshi's island. IMO I see you lacking combos more than anything else.

Btw anther has a nice pika

vs. falcon(ito)

Not much else to say here, just make your waveshines and make them useful and work on combos against falcon if he DIs the upthrow then chase>waveshine>grab or drill or whatever. Maybe this can help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVPJyaGhza4

vs. Peach(2-1)

Dude was going with your waveshines? If there's a reason to jump out of your shines instead of wavedash out of them you need to tell me. Apart from that I see a well played match up but I say a little more laser camp wont hurt you.

vs. falco (bowyer)

double shines and waveshining stuff was cool. I saw you made a good use of full jumped nair approaches, I also noticed 4 or 5 thunder's combo attempts but you missed -.- the thing is doing them not just try them... anyway you get the point right? apart from the thunder's well played.

takieddine · Aug 8, 2007

general advice on taking it to the next level:

Patience and be very cheap. Know what works. And dont play mindlessly.

brawlpro · Aug 8, 2007

Nice, as you already know i can't really help you out, just try to be a little less agressive on the edge to prevent suicides...that might* help.
edit: sry dumb advice...just be careful on those suicides..i'm in no position to give out advice.

kerploplesteesh · Aug 8, 2007

a lot more later, i promise...

I just watched your match against falco(bowyer) and you miss a TON of edgeguard opportunities. Three when falco was attempting to come back straight on the ledge you chose to try and shine or fsmash when every single time a dsmash just would have killed him.

edit: brawlpro if youre referring to when hes trying to edgeguard thats not a very good piece of advice. When youre on the ledge and theyre off it, you need to get in their f**cking way.

brawlpro · Aug 8, 2007

ahh, yeah yeah, thnx for correcting me... i'm gonna watch the rest vids to see if i can see some mistakes or not, guess watching these might help me aswell, so yeah...
edit: i meant he missed a lot of edgeguards, i'm guessing because he rushed himself into them, so thats why i said be a little less agressive...

peachori · Aug 8, 2007

i only watched a couple of matches, but a couple of things i saw were that you didnt firefox directly to the ledge when you were above it. it seems trivial but its actually really useful to be able to do consistently in a match. of course, if you're comfortable doing it but just didnt do it because you thought you'd get punished then you can ignore this haha.

also you can drop down and use nair to hit falco out of the illusion, it seemed like you had a little bit of trouble edge-guarding the falcos but that shouldnt be hard to fix. nice fox tho, way better than mine anyway

SCOTU · Aug 9, 2007

Thanks to those who've critiqued so far. Esp. Oskurito. Never thought of approaching with jabs. @ thunders combo: This was the first time i've tried to incorporate it into matches, and yeah, i do have consistency issues with it.

In general, when i first learned to play, i started out really technical and flashy. And that led to me not developing any mental game. So i spent the last 3 month ripping out the flashy stuff out of my game to improve my intelligence. It Got a bit better, and i decided that day to throw my flashiness back into my game cause it's so **** fun. So tech skill issues are mainly since i haven't used anything flashy in the last few months.

I do appear to be jumping out of my shines much. Thats a very defensive tactic that doesn't belong in this style, so i'll try to work it out.

I am missing a lot of edgeguards, so any suggestions would be appreciated.

@Peachori: Yes. I can sweetspot from above with extreme consistency. It just tends to get you owned a lot if they expect it.

Remember, if you don't think you're good enough to critique, you're wrong. I'm not very good at this game, and I have lots of bad patterns/ habits. Please point them out to me so i can fix them.

Vro · Aug 9, 2007

Am I... good enough to critique the mighty Scotu?

Jk. It seems to me you play with computers or by yourself a lot. Your fox is pretty straightforward. Drillshine to upsmash. Nair approaches with the occasional grab. I must admit, you have very strong technical skills (I practiced shine > upsmash for 40 minutes today, you pulled it off all the time =O )

Play hit and run more often. I haven't seen you wavedash defensively.. as in I've never seen you anticipate an opponents move or incoming attack and spaced yourself away. I've only seen you use it offensively, to reach your opponent after a shine or to general moving.

The falco fight could use a few more tilts. Up tilt and dtilt are quite effective on space animals. Also, you're only standing above the stage hoping that he'll forward b into you rather than edgehogging or being daring and jumping out for the spike.

A really obvious pointer is to watch videos. Learn new approaches or new fillers. You can't drillshine everyone, ya know =P . Jing and Massashi will give you pretty good aggressive techniques to fiddle with your great technique. M2K will also teach you some really cool stuff I'm sure you could pull off because of your skill and ability. Oh, even tho he doesn't like to be called it, PC is the mind-game god and he's now maining fox =) .

Oskurito · Aug 9, 2007

takieddine said:
Patience and be very cheap

Exactly, it works all the time

Shai Hulud · Aug 9, 2007

I can't offer much in the way of a critique but I will say that jump => shine turn around => DJ bair is a great move and works well against recovering Peaches.

peachori · Aug 9, 2007

scotu said:
@Peachori: Yes. I can sweetspot from above with extreme consistency. It just tends to get you owned a lot if they expect it.

yeah, i figured someone who was double shining in between stocks would be able to do that easily

and you are definitely right it gets you killed quick if they call it (or if you mess up)

oh and also for falco, i think you can stand at the edge and do the downward angled ftilt to hit him out of illusion. then if he goes for the firebird or whatever you can shine him out of it. i jacked this from a vid, i believe it was pc's fox haha.

also, thunders combo is awesome.

Randizzle · Aug 9, 2007

dsmash more for edgeguarding, foo.

Oskurito · Aug 10, 2007

Shai Hulud said:
jump => shine turn around => DJ bair

That's my combo!

firexemblemxpryde · Aug 10, 2007

Okay, I'm going to watch Scotu vs Anther 1-2 and critique the mofo out of you. As I have time, I will do the rest.

0:06 . okay. When falco is comboing you from 0-60, you can make it difficult by DIing straight forward. switching it up between backwards DI and forwards DI doesn't help. DI fully forwards, and make him do the slightly harder waveshine-wavedash-dair comboing instead. you'll notice that around 50% you'll be able to tech, and then just mindgame him out of the combo. I personally like to make the opponent think i'm still in the combo, and then when they go for another [greedy] hit, I back-air them in the face. Hard. Fastfalled. Let's carry on.

0:16 It is far more unlikely that your Uair will hit. when a falco is floating in the air, this close to the edge, nair or bair them off. He was at 70%. Your upair would not have killed him. Your best bet would have been a nair, which would have most definitely hit, and an easy edgeguard [it's falco, coming from barely above edge level] . Once he's off, I'm sure you would have grabbed the edge and ledgehop bair for edgeguard.

0:31 Don't firefox that close to a the ledge, especially above the stage. =[ Fal-can-kick!

0:38 You didn't fastfall your nair. If the falco wasn't being so agressive, he would have grabbed-***** you.

0:53-0:56 . Now. I know that your "shield to shine when the aggresive falco jumps in" trick is working against Anther. However, you're a technical player. You oughtta pride yourself in powershielding. Do it. it works wonders. They get hit in the face and go "wtf" as you upthrow to **** them. If you don't think powershielding works against Falcos, ask anyone from BC =]

1:13 . When he fwd+b off the stage, you should -always- immediately run the edge and taunt. No questions asked.

1:40 . I'm only being this critical because I know you're capable of lots. When you see that he's going to phantasm onto the stage, [and he OBVIOUSLY would try that here], just forward smash. you don't have time to set up for a shine, for a backair, etc. In this particular example, it would have brought you closer to the edge, as well as knocking the crap out of him. Notice that he had already used his jump (he had to) , so he would have been DEAD if he had been hit.

1:52 . Even if you don't take the rest of my advice, LISTEN TO THIS. Whenever someone does a [strong] move against your shield, and your back is to them, as soon as their hitbox animation is finished, jump out of your shield and IMMEDIATELY backair. This works extremely well against Falco, Jigglypuff, Marth, Falcon, characters that like to hit you with moves to shove you around the stage. It doesn't matter whether it's a ground attack, or an lcanceled aerial, it will hit against some moves. Sometimes, you have to tilt your shield away in order to get their lag to work for you, but that only comes with experience of doing it. I actually like having my back to the opponent, because if they are too scared to attack your shield, Fox is fast enough to rush in a nair while they hesitate. If they try running in for a grab, a shffl bair -> shine will own their face. Notice that sometimes, to get the bair off, you might have to jump either slightly away, or slightly towards them out of your shield. Most of the time away. Let's continue.

2:14 . As soon as you saw he didn't DI the uthrow, charge the upsmash at this percentage. I think it would have killed him. I can see how you maybe didn't want to charge upsmash in case he jumped out, but i think you surprised him on the grab, so this would have been less likely.

2:28. He's at 124%. Against a good player, there is noooo way you'd hit an upsmash. You can jump out at like... 70% or something. I've done it earlier. Next time, jump to the left so you can backair him off the stage. He didn't DI the uthrow. That was a stock right there.

2:32 . Where the bloody hell is your taunt?!

2:47 . I think you could have JUST teched, and avoided the fsmash. If you had teched, I'm sure you would have teched towards the stage, because that's the smartest thing to do. Other than that, great job throughout the match =]

If you don't understand what i meant during my incredibly unfair critique, let me know. If you never want me to do this again, let me know. I have some vids against Genesis' Falco, in case you want to see them.

SCOTU · Aug 10, 2007

Thank You Manli! Keep that good **** coming!

Checked, yeah, they can jump out at 90% before a usmash. dunno what i was thinking. (if he full DI'ed it, it'd've worked though xD).

The bair out of shield is something that i used a while back, but stopped using for some reason. Yeah, that definitely needs to go back into my game.

Overall, that is some of the best critiquing i've ever received. I hope you get a chance to watch some more vids and help me out there too!

Yeah, I'd like to see your vids against Genesis' falco. where are they posted? (if they are). Thanks again.

firexemblemxpryde · Aug 10, 2007

Is it really as high as 90%? Lol you learn something new every day. Lol bair out of shield is way too good. omg against MARTHS wtf.

I'm glad you're not yelling at me. I'll check some of your other vids and see if I can help out.

All my vids are here http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=101096&page=2
(NOW WITH NEW PRETTY COLOURS!) .

However, the specific set we had:

Set of Manli (Fox) vs. Genesis (Falco) on FD ONLY

Match 1: http://youtube.com/watch?v=fGh4HinIH3k
Match 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5K50QkvhG0
Match 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRg-W8rNrG8
Match 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SwiQM7xBcg
Match 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXl8mKbvoTk
Match 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hErkTG0OhaA
Match 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8Zl3gfmhMg

Lol, and he wanted it to be FD only. So I guess that is convenient. If you want to talk about cool fox stuff, pm me your msn =D

edit:// Oh gosh, excuse my noobiness on every even numbered match. =P
edit2:// Wow, I enjoyed that fox ditto 4-3. I think it's just Falco pressure that got to you. I larf anther's mindgames =P

Anther · Aug 10, 2007

That critique was so good it spilled out into me x.x.

Binx · Aug 10, 2007

I noticed a lack of varied approaches and a huge lack in grabs, fox's up throw is brutal vs almost every character, every now and again you should grab after a drill or nair instead of shining, you want to condition them into blocking through the shine and sneak in a grab every now and again so that they will start trying to shield grab the shines.

Dont make any decision they make an easy one even if you arent always doing the most damaging move. The more they have to worry about the more they will hesitate and the more time you will have to take advantage of that with Fox's speed.

Also be patient every once in a while if you jump in 3 times without attacking or single jump towars and double jump away waveland and shine just kind of run around them in and out of their hit range it really freaks most players out.

Falcinho · Aug 10, 2007

I think u should grab more often after a drill kick into their shield. It's awsome cause almost everyone expects the shine.
..But never do it against Peach.....

SCOTU · Aug 11, 2007

Yeah, I really do need more patience. I think I'll try to throw in some more DD grabs here and there. I try some drill grabs against falco, in order to get him off the edge, or chainthrow, but I do really underuse it, even then.

@ Falcinho: why not Drill>shine>jc grab? it's like the same thing, but better. I do plan on Shinegrabbing more, and even doubleshine>jc grabbing to mix it up.

I'll be going to a smashfest on sunday, hopefully I'll play a better variety of characters, and get them on vid.

Thanks guys, Keep the advice Coming!

Shai Hulud · Aug 11, 2007

Oskurito said:
That's my combo!

lol my bad...I've never seen it used much but I use it all the time. If you perfect the timing on it and DI as soon as you jump you can maintain a lot of the forward (or backward?) momentum and it has a great reach.

thebluedeath1000 · Aug 11, 2007

I was going to critque you but it seems you would not need it as you've gotten a very good indepth one already. Good going Firexemblemxpride.

Best of luck to you scotu.

firexemblemxpryde · Aug 11, 2007

MOooooooo

thebluedeath1000 said:
I was going to critque you but it seems you would not need it as you've gotten a very good indepth one already. Good going Firexemblemxpride.

I'm sorry. =[ . Seeing as how I'm bored, I'm going to now critique a Fox vs Peach vid. I don't really want to critique one on Mute City, though, because of the lack of edges, and it will only really be helpful for Mute City. =[

Lol awesome, there's one on Pokemon Stadium! Let's do it!
_________________________________________________

"7-1 SCOTU Fox vs. Korora Peach 2-1"

0:12 - You were doing awesome until here. After nair-shine, it is extremely hard to get a dair - if not impossible- if the peach is DIing away. There was no wall to stop her momentum. A 2nd nair would have been your best bet - we both know that you're fast enough to nair **** Peaches.

0:20 - Either you missed a shorthop, or your nair spamming has endangered you as it always does to me. Lol.

0:54 - If you know a peach is going to either grab the edge, or land right beside the edge, just shield. She was in her up B. JUST before she fastfalls to the ground, you can bair her. If she decides to go for the edge, the ASDI light shield trick that you use against Marth works on the LAST hit of Peach's umbrella. If you are facing her, upsmash out of shield.

1:03 - When they have invincibility frames as they re-spawn, don't mess around on the platforms until they are about 1.5 wavedashes away. Good players often wait for you to waveland etc, and they just hit with a nair with their last few frames of immortality.

Also, what some players do [and I'm undecided on whether this is a good idea] , is light shield (at the corner closest to the opponent) of a platform. This way, if they go for a direct hit, Fox will be pushed over slightly, but will still be lightshielding, available to take one more hit. If you get hit, you'll slide off the edge of the platform, and you can either jump, or tech. The whole purpose of it is to wait-out the invincibility frames. A smart player will try to jump on the platform and grab you, but when you see them trying to do this, the second they land on the platform, run away. Lol. Invincibility frames gone.

1:08 - Bad spacing/ move choice. The weak hit of the nair doesn't Lcancel perfectly to avoid getting owned unless you are RIGHT inside their shield. A defensive peach will own you if you try FH nairs on them. They don't even have to shieldgrab you, they can just CC dsmash. =[

1:16 - Lol wow, I'm surprised you didn't try this. He came with a falling nair, on a slanted plane. You were shielding. Since you love your drillshine combos so much, a drillshine could have initiated here, immediately after the nair hitbox ended - he would have JUST finished hitting the ground as you start your drill. You know what to do from there on.

1:18 - Nair-shine isn't great against peach. We all love our anti-peach combos, but this isn't one of them. Nair-nair-nair is better - and nair-usmash works against Peach. Really, just try nair nair more instead of nair-shine. I'll post a vid if you wanna see what I mean.

1:21 - You tried nair-shine again, and it screwed your spacing. Good job, Peach.

1:37 - Great spacing. Good job.

1:57 - Don't miss shines.

2:07 - Don't shine back turnips unless you know they are going to hit. Same goes with Samus missiles, everytime I try to shine back missiles at Patooty, I get owned up the tail. It was obvious that Peach was going in for an aggressive approach there. In that circumstance, wavedash away - nair or dair would have been nice.

2:09 - In your Firefox, it makes more sense to go towards the edge. You were close enough that Fox would almost immediately grab the edge - I doubt he could have hit you even if he ran with a dash attack. From the edge, to get back against a Peach, you otter try to get back on as soon as possible. Don't give them time to think. If they are close to the edge, ledgehop nair and jump the hell away. If you're flashy, and they are stupid enough to be RIGHT at the edge of the stage, shine->ledgewavedash ->upsmash is possible. If they are far away from the edge, just get up, or wavedash onto the stage. Again, you do not want to spend time on the edge against a Peach.

2:47 - He could have eaten another 20% here. Nairs.

2:48-2:49 - Lol, Falco combo, sir. Not Fox.

2:57 - I personally find it impossible to shine Peach from this angle. She always knows what Fox is trying to do, and outprioritizing the umbrella-ella-ella is a poo. Too hard. Instead, try fastfalling your jump, shine-turnaround-edgehog. Immediately while on the edge, the Peach will have Up+B. From the edge, jump with your invincibility frames and shine. They'll go back down. If the Peach doesn't up+B, just edgehog. But um, fastfalling - shineturnaround-edgehog is hard to do well. So =P. A downsmash might do it as well.

3:07 - Nairing while so close to a shielding Peach isn't great. You can do the "Dan Combo" here. When you are right beside an opponent that has JUST put their shield up, do an empty shorthop and IMMEDIATELY upsmash. They will almost always grab as you empty shorthop, and they'll be in the lag as you upsmash =]. If you see that once you are well into the SH, they are still shielding, doublejump away.

3:08 - Tech to the right. She can't reach you there. Honest mistake that everyone makes, though.

3:12 - We both know that dair isn't going to hit =P , unless the peach is stupid and tries to grab right away. Don't try it. Lol.

3:19 - SCOTU is too good for a normal infinite >.> =]

3:38 - Dangerous bisnatch, man.

3:56 - Isai motto: "Don't get hit". Manli motto: "Don't get mindgamed".
_________________________________________________

For the rest of the video, either you were doing great, or you made an honest mistake which isn't worth pointing out. Awesome match =]

=== Question. Does drill - turn around utilt work against Peach? If so, at what damages. All of them?

SCOTU · Aug 11, 2007

thebluedeath1000 said:
I was going to critque you but it seems you would not need it as you've gotten a very good indepth one already. Good going Firexemblemxpride.

Best of luck to you scotu.

Although Manli did do a good job, advice from other people's knowledge base, metagame are still usefull/ appreciated. Because, the more people with different mental games, different styles, and different experiences that give me advice, the more beneficial I think it would be. Thanks.

Edit: Thanks a ton Manli. I'll have to thouroughly go over that when i get home. Can't wait!

Although: yes, SCOTU is too good for normal infinites (in friendlies that are being recorded...)

Grand Mango · Aug 11, 2007

I believe you just need to travel and play as many people as you can, the road to up there is very long (unless you are KDJ).

BTW, that means I think you have a good Fox, and we (or just myself) can't really offer you advice to get better, from here on it's only tournament experience that will carry you.

brawlpro · Aug 11, 2007

holy crap firexemblemxpride, thats the best advice/critique i've seen!

SCOTU · Aug 11, 2007

Manli, you're officially my hero. That's an amazing critique (esp. with formating and stuff). about the nair>shine stuff, it was my first day trying nair combos, and shiz told me to nair>shine>nair>shine marth, i figured it might work on peach. It didn't. I got a little better later that day about nair comboing (see vs Korora Peach 0-8). that one dair off the edge combo thing... i think that was supposed to be a bair, but my thumb missed.

Anyone want to point out any patterns in my teching? That kind of stuff used to own me hardcore.

Here's a question: I have issues with thinking during matches. I tend to go in with a set strategy, a few different tactics & tricks, and 1 or 2 styles to switch between. What i have major issues with is I don't really know When to think, and What to think about. So if anyone has pointers that might help me with that, you'll also be added to my list of temporary heros.

Also: i should be capturing more vids at a smashfest tomorrow, and they'll be up by monday night. Hopefully tomorrow night!

thebluedeath1000 · Aug 12, 2007

Teh pwn critquing

Hmm...You asked me to try my hand and I'll give it a shot. I normally only do this on the marth board as they deserve the long crits....but for you and since emblem did well, I'll go lol.

I watched the fox ditto you pmed me and told ankoku it was the one to watch since I've got me some dial up here. lol

Nice try on the starting grab..but was very bold, when he backed off and put distance between you to, you should have lasered for abit and seen if he approached you or lasered back then acted accordingly.

With a good dash dance at .05 you got in two good grabs in your chainthrow but tried an up-tilt despite him di-ing a good distance away, pay your attention to the distance during chaingrabs instead of just trying to act fast..but you did manage to regrab and land the up-tilt.

From .13 to .16, whats up with the d-air fighting? lol..that was odd but you did push him back and return damage. Good jab shine combo but whats up with that edgeguard at .21? You could have hit him with a nair easily but you tried stopping his fire fox...with the f-air? lol.. then you did another f-air in the other direction for no reason. Calm down abit. You immediately jumped after he put you offstage and over-bed back..putting you in lag and vunerable, be abit more calm and don't be so edgy but you did right in making sure you got away from the ledge.

from .30 to about .35, you were too jumpy..you jumped and left yourself open, like putting yourself over him. at .43, you did right in edgehogging but you should have perfered something over ledgeattacking him as fox can move from the ledge remarkably fast.

You did well in making it back to stage as you didn't over-b and get edgehogged but try not to return to the stage with d-airs, try something safer like n-air. but you did take the first stock.

Although the fancy multishining after the stock was nice, it put you in harms way as you could have put some distance between you and that fox..and not been in a vunerable position as he reached you..and you might have kept that stock.

Nice comboing as you come back..but the dash dance as he over-b-ed needed to be distanced so you could have abused the lag of his over-b as he didn't sweetspot. Very nice grabs afterward ending with a bair...but once again, be wary of his over-b..shield it or jump, don't take un-necessary damage. Good edgegard though.

At 1.44, did you try wiggling out of your stun? It seemed like you had the time to do so. Also, be trying to smash di those up-airs..as you surely already know, just reminding. At 1.54, coming back to the stage so fast cost you..try to mix it up, don't be so edgy as I said before. He is recovering predictable as well..and you haven't taken advantage of that. At around 2.15, at that high of a damage..be more defensive rather than trying to catch a falling fox with an up-tilt, I'd have tried an up-smash.

Good di on that f-smash..but be more careful getting up from the ledge. Why didn't you di his dash attack?..it might have saved you. That full hopped nair at 2.35 could have cost you badly..avoid full hops for no reason. You did do well exchanging blows as it was the smart thing to do considering the damage difference.

3.01..try not to put you inbetween him and the ledge, its scary. 3.09, once again..full hops are bad for no reason..and you did it again but the fire fox at 3.20 was gold lol..why scotu, why?!

Seems you got really hyper after that..lol lots of edgeguard attempts gone but you both were playing fast paced so I can't say slow down and think. 3.50, don't get up attack unless you have a reason to do so..it leaves you very open. and around 3.54, were you wiggling? you had plenty of time to recover from stun..you did good trying to recovery afterward but meh, you were fated to lose it would seem.

Keep in mind I don't play fox, but I've fought many and watched many dittos.

I can't give you fox specific advice besides what you probably already see once you sit down and think. As I said, I don't play fox.

You're a very solid fox and can think on your feet, you need pro fox mains to be taking you to the next level by giving advice and showing you how they ****, not pro marths : )

Remember, start doing those falling u-airs, I didn't see any!

SCOTU · Aug 12, 2007

sweet dude, thanks for the *** kicking critique! Man, this **** is so beneficial. Again, i should be capturing more games tomorrow.

firexemblemxpryde · Aug 12, 2007

I want to see some Fox vs Marth. Marth is my main, after all, and I like to think I'm very good in that match up as either of those characters.

Oh, and you're welcome Scotu. It's encouraging to see someone who is actually willing and wanting to do what it takes to get better.

SCOTU · Aug 12, 2007

Yeah, i'm going to a smashfest tomorrow, where randy's going, and i'm pretty sure he wants some vids too. So i'll get some vs marth & vs sheik. Plus I might get some against the best peach in state (at least). Some against mario (maybe), Probably some jiggs. Probably a better falcon. Just stay tuned for more vids!

Falcinho · Aug 12, 2007

scotu said:
(...)
@ Falcinho: why not Drill>shine>jc grab? it's like the same thing, but better. I do plan on Shinegrabbing more, and even doubleshine>jc grabbing to mix it up.
(...)

Yeah, if you know that ur opponent stays in his shield its better+cooler
I'm not used that my opponents stay in their shield. Either they try to grab me or they roll out. But we're all getting better, so sometime i'll be able to to drill>shine>jc grab

Good luck for today!!

Randizzle · Aug 12, 2007

i haven't played since the last smash fest... time to get ***** by mikey lenetia's peach =)

yeah, we'll most likely also have vids against a good falcon and a decent mario too.

SCOTU · Aug 12, 2007

Falcinho said:
Yeah, if you know that ur opponent stays in his shield its better+cooler
I'm not used that my opponents stay in their shield. Either they try to grab me or they roll out. But we're all getting better, so sometime i'll be able to to drill>shine>jc grab

Good luck for today!!

fortunately, however, a well timed roll escapes both, but you can't be grabbed out of a drillshinegrab, where you can be grabbed out of a drillgrab.

Falcinho · Aug 12, 2007

scotu said:
fortunately, however, a well timed roll escapes both, but you can't be grabbed out of a drillshinegrab, where you can be grabbed out of a drillgrab.

My problem is that they get hit by the shine and my fingers aren't fast enough yet to do some crazy waveshinecombos (I main Falco)

SCOTU · Aug 12, 2007

Ok, I just got back from a smashfest, and i'll have new vids against some better people, including against pika (anther's), Jiggs, Marth, peach, zelda, fox. I'll link them back here (and in first post) when They're split/ & uploaded.

Silent Wolf · Aug 13, 2007

Before I give any advice, I'm just going to let you know that I didn't read any of the previous advice given. So sorry if anything is repeated in this post. I'm also going to be giving tips on the match up ad the stage too, so sorry if I give information you're aware of.

Match 1 - Vs Pikachu, what you want to go for is grabs. Instead of shining after landing and aerial on Pikachu, try and go for the grab. Drill grab works wonders for me. If they're at high % and the aerial won't combo into grab, then try to waveshine>jab>grab. When edge guarding Pikachu, hang on the ledge, and just stand up at the point where you would still edge hog him if he went for the ledge. This way you will have more time to reach Pikachu if he doesn't try to go for the ledge. After every bair or nair below 50%, try to dash and grab immediately afterwards like you would on peach.

Match 2 - I don't think i saw any opportunities for this really, but whenever Falco >B's above the ledge enough to get hit by a jab, jab him, then shine him. ftilt also works. if hes going for the ledge with his >B though, do a downward ftilt. if he does this often, you can just WD fast fall onto the ledge as hes coming back. If you do that and he goes above the ledge, just master ledge dashing as fast as you can so you can get on the stage and punish with a grab. I usually do a turn around utilt if its just a friendly. it never hurts to get good at things that are effective and flashy. thats how i tried to mold my fox. always try to smash DI the Falco's dair in his shine>dair combos towards whichever side the dair hit you on, that way the shine is out of reach and you can just grab them if they try to shine. Ill try to stick to the matches and not the match up, sorry.

Match 3 - What you want to do on Green Greens when they're over on a side platform camping, is jump over there, and shine their shield without hitting the ground, so they try to grab you. Then you fall on them with a uair or bair. Don't do this every time though, they'll surely catch on. Jump over there and jump back from time to time to change it up. There are a few cool tricks on Green Greens too. If you dsmash the blocks the ones on the layer you dsmashed disappear so you have no lag as you normally would after a dsmash, so they see a dsmash, they think lag, so just jump or SHFFL an aerial at them. You can also just immediately grab the ledge if it's the bottom layer. You can also ledge hop>waveland onto the platforms from the ledges on the center platform, as you can on Yoshi's, Battlefield, etc. Just try messing around with all the weird little techniques on that stage.

Match 4 - After you shine Falco off, don't try to run down there and shine him, just get on the ledge as fast as possible. otherwise, he may be able to just sweetspot with his second jump and avoid your attack. Then once you jump back on from shine he can ledgehop and aerial, and if you air dodge, he can still punish you. If you just get on the ledge though, you can either shine him before his up-b, or wait for him to up-b onto the ledge, and then punish from there. What really works if you're in range, is instead of shining him and then getting on the ledge is doing it all at once by getting used to the hit lag of the shine and just shine turn around him and get on the ledge as well. If you were to do this, you could also just fall past the ledge and shine again. This one might be a bit hard at first, but definitely worth it. As far as what to do after the uthrow: At 0%, If they don't DI, I just waveshine him then re-grab. It's easy to tell which way the shine will send him. After that, or after an aerial's worth of % is on him, I usmash after the throw. If they don't tech, you should walk up and ab him, and it will have the effect that it does in "Thunders' Combo" so you can just charge an usmash as he's standing. If he's at 50%-100%, I utilt after the throw if they don't DI, then if at 100%, I uair, and if at 50%, I nair. If they Di the nair away enough to where you can't catch him with a grab, waveshine then jab him. Follow up the jab with a grab I'd say. Like in this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=naMkg7L_rrs
I think I've said enough about Falco.

Match 5 - At 0:41 You should have stood up on the ledge, like I was talking about in an earlier explanation.
At 2:41, after the uthrow uair, If they Di onto the platform like that at around that %, you should nair into usmash from the below platform you were on. It works quite well. I've seen Mew2King use that whole scenario on Ken and I use it myself.
Not much else that I didn't cover in a previous explanation.

Match 6 - I didn't watch all of this one, but I can say that you should edge guard a Fox's up-b when coming from below with a rising dair from the ledge, then just follow up with a shine. If the shine will knock them into the wall, then keep doing rising drills, there's nothing they can do.

I stopped here because I normally don't watch anyone matches online. I don't find it very fun, I don't like watching people. I didn't watch the finals at FCD or OC3, so it's nothing personal. I hope I helped as much as I tried though. I'm glad you give me a big hand in the advice topic, I just wanted to return the favor. Also, I did play you at FC right? I was just thinking about it. Just wanted to see, because I'm pretty sure me and DJ Combo played you in some friendlies.

SCOTU · Aug 13, 2007

Silent Wolf, you're once again my hero. Thanks a ton, dude!
I didn't realize that SDI'ing a falco Dair would actually get you out of the combo, so i'll have to work on that (I've got the timing sorta down for it, since it's the most common move i SDI for edgeteching)
Green Greens tricks = new to me, really. Dsmash on blocks? that makes perfect sense (so long as there's no bomb).
Thanks for the thorough advice on throw comboing as well.
your advice is amazing, and i'll have to try to fix some (a lot) of my stuff.
I appreciate how many vids you watched, and it's definitely going to be a big help for me, and i thank you a ton.
Yes, you guys did "play" (crush) me at FC. Good **** SW.

j00t · Aug 15, 2007

Alright, i'll post my thoughts on the first vid now and edit this post (Or post new posts) on the other videos as I watch them.

By the way, for me the sound quality of the first vid was TERRIBLE. Ugh, made me wanna rip my ears off and flush them down the toilet. :< But yeah, maybe i'm the only one that's getting the bad sound.

The first thing I noticed immediately was how you didn't punish the Pikachu's predictable recovery. 95% of the time, the Pikachu sweetspotted the ledge with QA. If he's off the ledge, hog that ledge and make him QA somewhere else. Punish him for being predictable. There was one time when you grabbed the ledge to edgehog him, but you jumped up and let him come back anyways. >.>;

The only other thing I noticed about this match is your overextensive use of nairs, especially when the Pikachu was at higher percents. When he gets to around 70%, especially on YS, you need to find an opening and go in for the uthrow -> uair. dashdance, get him nervous, make him slip up. Do anything to get the grab. repeatedly doing nairs is just going to make him harder to kill.

I hope I was of help, especially after the advice you gave me.

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