SynikaL's Brawl Impressions: "When Hearts Cry" Edition

[Kiden4911]

People who don't like AT's and the metagame of melee are people who are treating this game as something other than a fighting game (which it should be and is). To me the whole point of fighting games are that the more you practice at something and the more time you spend training, the more you should be winning. Other fighting games have huge movelists and precise timing which you need to memorize to get better at. Smash has AT's and the metagame. If you take away AT's/metagame in smash that would take away the aspect of super smash that makes it a fighter.

What Synikal is fearing here is that they have taken out the aspects of smash to make it a fighting game. If everything gets watered down to the point where anybody can beat anybody regardless of skill, then that defeats the purpose of Smash as a fighting game.

Now I'm relatively a noob at smash. I've never been in tournaments and only play among friends, but I can appreciate what the metagame and AT's brought to melee. Me taking the time to learn how to wavedash SHOULD pay off. Anyone who learned how to shffl (which i could never do) SHOULD have an advantage over someone who doesn't know how, because that person put in his time and effort practicing shffling. It's not really just a matter of whether Smash is viable for tournament play. It's important even for regular gamers like me who just play with friends.

That being said, I have full confidence that in a year, Brawl will be just as deep (maybe even more so) as Melee and there will be plenty of AT's and metagame to make sure Smash remains a fighting game and not, as synikal put it, a "party game with fighting game aesthetics".

 

[Losnar]

I love hearing you all biotch about a game you haven't played yet. Elitist scum.

 

[Libomasus]

Didn't SC3 mostly stop being played because of a game breaking glitch? Other than that, it still has many fans for it's fighting system and there are tournaments among its community, just like we do at Smash. Or, did, before we made it to the MLG level big leagues. And then, that's mostly because we have more people.

SC3 did have a game-breaking glitch, but there are lots of other reasons it wasn't a big tourney game. I still think SC is the best of the trilogy anyways. Its just plain more fun.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Except for the few people who are actually discussing why Brawl doesn't need X tech to be a deep fighter in its own right.

The problem is is that it essentially does.
Typically, a deep fighting game is one with an expansive, multi-layered system of techniques and moves that balance each other out in a rock paper scissors style. The sheer vastness of the fighting engine in terms of possible techniques, play styles, strategies and other things is what makes games like Street Fighter, Virtua Fighter and Marvel vs Capcom 2 so popular among competitive games and it's the same thing that made Melee popular at a competitive level.

The advanced techniques in Melee made it more than a kids game. Sure you can play competitively without them, but it just isn't as meaningful or long-lasting because there is nothing to learn. Once you've mastered the basic techniques, which doesn't take long, there isn't very far you can go. The beauty of Melee is that there are so many techniques to master and incorporate into your game to improve it. It takes years to master everything, and that keeps it interesting for years.

If Brawl is utterly void of advanced techs (which is highly unlikely), it will only last on the competitive scene for maybe a few years. People will play it at home of course and it will still be a fun game, but it will never reach the level of competitive play that Melee did.
There will be no big tournaments like MLG or Melee FC for thousands of dollars and no players achieving amazing feats like Ken and M2K.
And the Brawl Disc boards will be as meaningless as most of them are now. Just people griping over what they don't like about the game, n00bs arguing against competitive play, people posting useless "What if" threads and the like.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Orlando speaks the truth as does synical though I believe he is a bit too pessimistic.
While Brawl is void of l canceling you forgot to mention that it really isn't necessary since the lag has been removed for at least two aerial attacks or the lag has been drastically reduced. I think Sakurai removed L canceling by attempting to remove the lag that people found to be an annoyance.

I do believe Brawl will have advanced techs especially since we have seen such techniques like reverse grabbing and reverse aerials (where you retain forward momentum of your jump but going backwards so you can use a bair or other moves)
That and as mentioned earlier the fact that overly used moves will lose their knock back ability and coudl therefore open up the combo potential.

Once we have the game and a few months go by I am sure we will have a clearer image of what Brawl will be like competitively wise.

 

[Mr.C]

People who have no true high-level competitive experience should not be posting in this thread.

 

[Demon Kirby]

People who have no true high-level competitive experience should not be posting in this thread.

So, practically everyone in this thread.

It doesn't take a genius to know that Melee wasn't at its fulest until years after its release, and I'm willing to bet the same will happen for Brawl.

Complaining about Brawl's lack of advanced techniques as of now if like complaining that the soup is bad when the water just started boiling.

 

[ShadowLink84]

People who have no true high-level competitive experience should not be posting in this thread.

Might I ask you why high level tournament goers should be considered as experts of Brawl?
If this was melee I would agree with you but this is brawl and synikal has made it painfully clear that Brawl does not work at all like melee did in the past.

The only people that can actually have a say on whats going on are the people who have the game right now.
That means gimpyfish and other people who have imported the game.

Even then that doesn't mean that what they are saying should be taken as fina lbecause Brawl just came out and it was over a year before people were approaching a high level of play in melee.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

So, practically everyone in this thread.

It doesn't take a genius to know that Melee wasn't at its fulest until years after its release, and I'm willing to bet the same will happen for Brawl.

Complaining about Brawl's lack of advanced techniques as of now if like complaining that the soup is bad when the water just started boiling.

or the steak is so raw when the grill just started grilling

 

[Mr.C]

Might I ask you why high level tournament goers should be considered as experts of Brawl?
If this was melee I would agree with you but this is brawl and synikal has made it painfully clear that Brawl does not work at all like melee did in the past.

The only people that can actually have a say on whats going on are the people who have the game right now.
That means gimpyfish and other people who have imported the game.

Even then that doesn't mean that what they are saying should be taken as fina lbecause Brawl just came out and it was over a year before people were approaching a high level of play in melee.

It took a year to approach high level play in Melee because Melee started out with a small competitive scene. We are large in numbers and there a plenty of highly skilled people that are ready to find as much as they can about Brawl when they get there hands on it. Which means things will be going a lot faster this time around.

And by high-level I don't mean people who are amazing at Brawl or etc...I mean people who have an understanding of what high-level play is about. Which its obvious only a few people in this thread do.

 

[OmegaFujin (PGI)]

People who have no true high-level competitive experience should not be posting in this thread.

Most people other than myself probably wouldn't bother, but I simply find people who dis the game so early to be offensive. Especially Synikal "my ignore list"; is he like 12 years old or something. Everyone else thanks for being respectful of both sides of the argument. I believe this is Smash, come on people... SMASH. The depth will increase with time, there will be different forms of depth than Melee, not the same stuff. I really don't believe that there is less depth just because similarities to Melee are inert. It's a new game and maybe the idea of it was for people to have to remaster it. If we play the game like it's Brawl & not Melee then we may discover more.

 

[Mr.C]

Its not so much the game won't be competitive or in depth....I'm sure Brawl will be both. The problem is that Brawl itself limits the competitiveness of high-level play.

Take for instance the removal of Lcanceling. The competitive melee people just want Brawl to be AS deep/competitive as Melee. Because lets face it Melee is the best game ever made =]

 

[ShadowLink84]

It took a year to approach high level play in Melee because Melee started out with a small competitive scene. We are large in numbers and there a plenty of highly skilled people that are ready to find as much as they can about Brawl when they get there hands on it. Which means things will be going a lot faster this time around.

And by high-level I don't mean people who are amazing at Brawl or etc...I mean people who have an understanding of what high-level play is about. Which its obvious only a few people in this thread do.

The problem with that statement is that we won't know what kind of high level play Brawl will revolve around.
As said before Brawl is different melee in many ways and as a result it would be impossible to dictate what high level play would be for this game. yeah we can get a general idea but it won't exactly be accurate.

The competitive scene did get larger but that doesn't necessarily mean that things will speed up drastically.after all our tier list is changing which does mean there are new strategies that are being found and used all the time.

Thats why I tihnk its best top refrain from putting people off.
Besides everyone has to start out somewhere right?

Take for instance the removal of Lcanceling...this is gayshiz.

The competitive melee people just want Brawl to be AS deep/competitive as Melee. Because lets face it Melee is the best game ever made =]

This was made up for the fact that two aerials are autocanceled and that the lag for other aerial attacks has been significantly reduced.
i.e. Link Uair has had its lag reduced.

 

[FalseFalco]

The problem with that statement is that we won't know what kind of high level play Brawl will revolve around.

Sure, but examining the jump from 64->Melee compared to Melee->Brawl it's pretty disappointing. Although it's hard to improve upon Melee's engine, they managed to do it in 64 so it would be assumed it can be done again. The basic gameplay mechanics from both of the other Smash games being removed is truly the most tragic thing of all. This fact among others is disappointing to people like this thread's creator as well as myself.

As said before Brawl is different melee in many ways and as a result it would be impossible to dictate what high level play would be for this game. yeah we can get a general idea but it won't exactly be accurate.

Well the 'general idea' this far isn't very dynamic. That's the problem. It would take a miracle to make it incredible again, and as the days go by and more and more people aren't finding that miracle, the chances are getting slimmer.

The competitive scene did get larger but that doesn't necessarily mean that things will speed up drastically.after all our tier list is changing which does mean there are new strategies that are being found and used all the time.

Actually it does mean things will speed up drastically. More people with brawl + more developed idea of what to look for= Faster results. So far the results aren't spectacular.

Mr. C, you're such a goof all the time I never thought you knew what you were talking about but my eyes are opened now.

 

[eldiablo185]

That's a pretty harsh review, but I can tell you walked in with the same hopes and aspirations as I have, so I can't really correct you where I haven't even played the game.

Still, I think one thing bears over all others, which you did caveat your post with, and that's that people don't know anything about the game yet. People have and will continue to claim to know things about the game, from before it was announced, to before it was released, to before it was played, to before it will be well understood. Time will clear all things, and I am confident that Nintendo hasn't botched their golden child, and that this will be the greatest fighting game ever made.

Based on your review, I don't think you truly accepted the warning people like GimpyFish and HugS have been sounding off, and that is that this is a totally different game. There is no reason to assume dash dancing this, wavedashing that, edge-guard this way, combo that way. When you walk in with all your Melee assumptions, even though you say you know it's a new game, of course you're going to be dissapointed and frustrated when it misbehaves.

I am going to do the same thing I did with Brawl as I did with Melee:

#1 Get the game and play it, as a video game, not some platform for my ego of how good I am. Accept that I suck, and not attempt to force-feed my character moves I'm told are good (or should be good, or were good in Melee).

#2 Through my enjoyment of the game, remember what I observe. Effects of button combinations. Items. Stages. Priority. character and player habits. What is good for adding %, what is good for finishing off. How to prolong my own stock.

#3 Get involved in the community, as a lurker. Don't run out and go "omgwtfbbq luk wut i fownd" posting some totally useless crap, simply because it was new to you. Instead, take in all these ******** posts by others. Take in the response they get. Some will actually have meaningful applications, as time will tell.

#4 Apply your knowledge. Go out and play people, on-line random matches, friend wifis, local smashfests, and eventually, tournaments. Continue having fun with the game, but apply everything you've learned. Never in this process should you force some weird play-style on yourself, either from what you would have expected from Melee, or what you were told to expect from Brawl. Let it flow.

#5 Having played through the game thoroughly, unlocked everything, played many matches with many characters on many levels, saw many "unusual" things which through the discourse of the community become more understood, you are now, at this point, MONTHS after the game comes out, equipped to analyze the game, and to discuss technique & strategy. At this point truly advanced techs will be emerging, which will then only be possible because of the context of mundane established by everyone freaking over every minutiae of the game.

#6 Now it is a competitive, well-understood game that you can have intelligent discourse in. Smash reached this stage about 3-4 years after it's release. So everyone needs to untwist their nuts and follow these steps.

Syn, only the 1st 3 lines of this post were directed at you btw. The rest is just stream of thought ranting, that your post induced because it was very insightful.

You, my friend are 800% right, thats exactly what I did, And will do again, kudos

 

[Mr.C]

This was made up for the fact that two aerials are autocanceled and that the lag for other aerial attacks has been significantly reduced.
i.e. Link Uair has had its lag reduced.

That is an example of the limitations Brawl has put on us, lol. We are now FORCED to use certain moves instead of using the move that would be most appropriate in the situation at hand. Links Uair in Brawl is no where near the speed of a L canceled Uair in Melee.

Mr. C, you're such a goof all the time I never thought you knew what you were talking about but my eyes are opened now.

Lol =]

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well I think that perhaps that is what may be causing issues. We're assuming that they can improve upon the melee formula when they decided to take it in another direction.
Sakurai had mentioned they were attempting to balance the game out more.
Rather than look at what has been removed from Brawl in the transition of melee to brawl we shouldperhaps look at what has been added.
The new auto ledge grab, the air dodge system (which is better than last game's even if the lack of wave dashing), the auto cancel of aerial attacks. Super armor and so on and so forth.

I think its a bit of an exaggeration to say it will take a miracle but I believe its because we keep seeking for a melee 2,0 rather than taking in Brawl as a separate game first before doing our comparisons. I say that mainly because if we tend to do comparisons before we have all our knowledge collected about brawl we'll feel disillusioned and disappointed when we may not have a reason to feel that way.

That isn't to say Brawl will be as deep or complex as melee but I do think it will have qualities that separate it from melee and make it close in depth to melee if not the same.

That is an example of the limitations Brawl has put on us, lol. We are now FORCED to use certain moves instead of using the move that would be most appropriate in the situation at hand. Links Uair in Brawl is no where near the speed of a L canceled Uair in Melee.

No you actually are not.
The system now works that if you continuously use a move over and over it causes less damage and less knockback. It doesn't really force you because you can still use that move over and over again since now instead of knocking your opponent to far away you can continue the combo and rack up greater damage than you normally would. You're not forced to stop using them if anything it allows you to use moves that normally could not connect into a combo to be used in such a manner. Not to say this will always be desirable but it does add a depth to the combo scene that we wouldn't have in melee.

I think it should be looked at less as a limitation and more as a remedy for the increased floatiness of characters. Now that it requires characters to be knocked out at 150% we are now capable of increasing the damage in a relatively shorter amount of time.

I suppose I am being overly optimistic.

 

[SynikaL]

Now that the nonsense has subsided and reverted back to a meaningful discussion I want to talk about another thing that I found strange.

There's an odd mechanic that forces fastfall on Dairs when using the C-stick (at least, with the characters I played). Anytime you do a Dair at the apex of your jump or afterwards (on the way down), the character auto-fast falls.

I found it a bit funky, as it kinda restricted the versatility I'm used to having with Dairs and the C-Stick. No longer could I stall in the air and use Dair how I see fit when using the C-Stick. It kinda ties into my thesis, so I felt that it was worth mentioning. There's probably something else there though; maybe the mechanic effects aerials in some way (definitely doesn't help the lag).

This actually extends to Airdodges:

after the second AD without touching the ground, you plummet downwards.

This is false. As long as you have another jump, you can Air Dodge frequently, as long as it's not done at the apex or on the way down.

Apparently, a friend of mine says that the invincibility during the plummeting Air Dodge lasts all the way towards the stage, regardless of how high you are. He says it's a good tactic to use to grab the ledge when being edge guarded.

-Syn

 

[Damax]

bla bla bla bla bla bla
tactic bla bla bla

You know, tactics are enough to make a game competitive. Chess for exemple.

I don't know if these term are exacts since I study in french and I'm sorry if you can't understand just point out I'll try to make it right.

We should focus on now and what we can REALLY say which is the truth we experienced. As long as they're is a possibility of much more depths with this new metagame, I'd rather not say it won't be competitive as melee. On another note I don't want anyone saying its gonna be as competitive as melee.

I think those debate are somewhat too fast.

However from my point of view, the limitation argument and the non competitive thesis are mostly over runned by some kind of determinism as if a newbie could win against a experienced player if the games decides so.

on the other side, those claiming brawl will be competitive as melee sounds like christian who praise hope. Brawl will be competitive! at least I hope ( for exemple)

its similar to the Buddhism vs Christianism in philosophy, or the materialism vs humanism
however those subject where never settled in philosophy and it existed more than a century ago

Brawl won't need as much time to be settled, and I think words seriously won't cut it. either you are pessimist (refering to those who think brawl won't be competitive) or positive (refering to the other party) both have their disavantage on those who did play the game or can't think by themselve yet of what they think about the game.

And please read this knowing I'm neutral on the matter. I'm just pointing things out and just how stupid it turned. Such argumentations is mostly speculation for now on both sides. Claiming its not competitive might make some people miss that great and fun game (and yes its subjective since I've played it) of course, if you came to the conclusion yourself and can't live on maybes try other fighting games SF4 maybe? As for those claiming it'll be competitive, it might give false hopes to some if your prophecy doesn't come true, causing some major disapointment.

I'm really fond of those its not melee 2.0 argument. you know maybe we'll be able to get L-cancels by hitting the jump button upon landing or a direction, or double tapping the shield.

But I also agree with the argument which says: for now its seems like brawl's conception was made around items making it less likely competitive.

lets have a little logic. if Melee was competitive
melee was fun
if brawl is fun
brawl is melee
if brawl is melee then it is competitive

it doesn't make much sense does it?

The only thing I could suggest is to follow your own heart without trying to convince other peoples out of their beliefs. play the game or not, for fun or for competition (or to try to make it competitive wtv)

 

[Mike G]

Syn..

at first I played the game like it was melee and i was like WTTTTFFFFFFFFF!?

then as I played more I started to understand the game more. Trust me Syn as you know you know im all about techs with my peach. Play the game a bit more and try to forget some of melee's rules.

 

[TheCatPhysician]

dudes my faith in brawl is a little restored now

after reading this thread, i thought for sure it wouldn't work as a competitive game. and i'm obviously not sure that it will work now, but i've got my hopes back up! i can't wait for my wiikey to come in.


also hey Mike G sup

 

[Mr.C]

mike g's hot

 

[SynikaL]

Apparently, where I went wrong with this thread was my intention to defend my initial impressions, rather than simply let them stand on their own in order to ensure they are continually held in that regard -- and let the thread take on a life of its own.

Unfortunately, despite the open-ended nature of my posts, and what I deem to be oh-so carefully crafted phraseologies, the warped nature of the internet has managed to color my character as an immobile absolutist.

People lack the ability to make certain distinctions. Despite the fact that I've never stated Brawl will never be as competitive as Melee, I'm continually defending myself against the accusation. Despite the open-ended nature of my descriptions (keywords dispersed throughout such as "at this point", "so far" -- the analytical nature of my thoughts), I'm defending myself against accusations of narrow mindedness and an irreverence towards time:

"Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils”.

-- 19th century French Composer, Hector Berlioz.

The only assessment I willingly made clear I was 100% confident in, was I didn't feel Brawl would ever reach the level of technical complexity and overall depth Melee had. Doesn't mean the game won't be at least as competitive. Apparently, the idea is more subjective than I thought, as "technical complexity" and "depth" means certain things to different people when it comes to fighting games. That's fine -- I believe my personal idea will remain unsatisfied by Brawl, but as I've stated time and time again, we'll see (and I'm sure even after this post, some of you will undoubtedly tell me this again)

My hypothesis supports my belief, which is why its there -- so my opinion doesn't hover in some purgative realm of unreasonable abstractions.

Despite what new-school players think about players like SilentWolf and Eggz, I don't personally believe anyone approached Melee more laterally than I -- Mike's played me, so he might even vouch for me here. I will approach Brawl with the very same attitude.


I'm done with this thread.


-Kimosabae

 

[Sliq]

You know, tactics are enough to make a game competitive. Chess for exemple.

Thank you! FINALLY someone brings up the action packed extravaganza that is turn based games. We at last have something relevant to compare it to.

 

[slikvik]

I still have my doubts about some of the removals but this thread does make me more optimistic

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142507

 

[ShadowLink84]

Thank you! FINALLY someone brings up the action packed extravaganza that is turn based games. We at last have something relevant to compare it to.

Except that you can't compare turn based games to Brawl since their is no turn based system to wor k with.
Yes there will be tactics but it isn't as great a need as in TBG.


EditL I think I found something interesting that may mke the whole issue of l canceling obsolete. The link below shows that at a certain height Sonic's Dair has no lag at all as it usually does.
This may mean that for some characters, at a certain height their aerial will have little to no lag.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=kvWcPzbCsDU

 

[Seifersythe]

\

I'm done with this thread.


-Kimosabae

Isn't the Captain supposed to go down with the ship?

 

[NY-Beast]

This game will still own beyond our imaginations once we get used to everything.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

People lack the ability to make certain distinctions.

-Kimosabae

Pot-kettle-black?

Smooth Criminal

 

[TheCatPhysician]

Except that you can't compare turn based games to Brawl since their is no turn based system to wor k with.
Yes there will be tactics but it isn't as great a need as in TBG.

how do i detected sarcasm

 

[Random Nobody]

This game will still own beyond our imaginations once we get used to everything.

What exactly are you basing this on? Historically speaking, there have been tons of games that have also had the same types of distinction ladled on them, and have disappointed and have become nothing but a footnote in video game history.

-Killer Instinct 1 and 2
-Capcom Fighting Evolution
-Soul Calibur 3
-SNK vs Capcom: Chaos

were all games that people expected would be great games, but instead turned out to be shallow, boring fighters that did not have the lifespan of their predecessors. A lot of it had to do with lack of depth, which is exactly what Synikal is talking about in his opening post. Whether or not Brawl has the depth of Melee is still unknown, but given what he's observed, he has perceived that the level of depth in Brawl is already well below that of Melee.

Before anyone says, give it 1-2 years, it doesn't take that long to determine how shallow a game is if it is shallow, although it might take that long to discover everything if a game is deep. It took only a few months to realize that Darkstalkers characters ran CFE. It took less time to realize how broken Geese and Zero were in SNK vs Capcom. Duo Lon dominance in KoF 2003 was almost from the getgo.

The other problem is that if a game is perceived as shallow in its early lifespan, players may not give it enough of a chance to truly plumb out all the potential. I don't think that Brawl will have this issue, but I wouldn't be entirely surprised either.

Melee is a unique game in that it unintentionally had lots of depth and has remained competitive for a long time. I understand that Sakurai wants to make the game more accessible for less skilled players, but doing so by punishing those who put in the extra time and effort is the wrong way of doing it.

 

[JCrazYAkumA]

Melee had more dept then SsB64 but i also find SsB64 to be very competitive to

 

[Mr.C]

ssb64 had like 10 people in its competitive scene lol

 

[joeysmash]

SSBB is the shiz, that is all. you can all STFU now. End of thread at the might of true words spoken by Joeysmash.

 

[Neko06]

What exactly are you basing this on? Historically speaking, there have been tons of games that have also had the same types of distinction ladled on them, and have disappointed and have become nothing but a footnote in video game history.

-Killer Instinct 1 and 2
-Capcom Fighting Evolution
-Soul Calibur 3
-SNK vs Capcom: Chaos

were all games that people expected would be great games, but instead turned out to be shallow, boring fighters that did not have the lifespan of their predecessors. A lot of it had to do with lack of depth, which is exactly what Synikal is talking about in his opening post. Whether or not Brawl has the depth of Melee is still unknown, but given what he's observed, he has perceived that the level of depth in Brawl is already well below that of Melee.

Before anyone says, give it 1-2 years, it doesn't take that long to determine how shallow a game is if it is shallow, although it might take that long to discover everything if a game is deep. It took only a few months to realize that Darkstalkers characters ran CFE. It took less time to realize how broken Geese and Zero were in SNK vs Capcom. Duo Lon dominance in KoF 2003 was almost from the getgo.

The other problem is that if a game is perceived as shallow in its early lifespan, players may not give it enough of a chance to truly plumb out all the potential. I don't think that Brawl will have this issue, but I wouldn't be entirely surprised either.

Melee is a unique game in that it unintentionally had lots of depth and has remained competitive for a long time. I understand that Sakurai wants to make the game more accessible for less skilled players, but doing so by punishing those who put in the extra time and effort is the wrong way of doing it.

Brawl may not end up being a good competitive game, but I'm certain it will end up being just as FUN as Brawl, if not moreso, especially to the more casual gamers out there. None of the fighting franchises you listed have the immense popularity that Nintendo characters have. And underneath that is a deep game, its just deep in other ways that may not work in the tournament scene. Oblivion on PC is a very shallow game once you get passed the sheer scope of the game, and it was GOTY. Smash Bros Brawl may become a footnote in the tournament scene, though even this would surprise me, given the almost gaurentee of this games future popularity, but it will be a player's choice game that meets Melee in terms of sales, with good cause. I base this on history. If things turn out any different, I'll eat my hat.

 

[Mr.C]

Brawl may not end up being a good competitive game, but I'm certain it will end up being just as FUN as Brawl, if not moreso, especially to the more casual gamers out there. None of the fighting franchises you listed have the immense popularity that Nintendo characters have. And underneath that is a deep game, its just deep in other ways that may not work in the tournament scene. Oblivion on PC is a very shallow game once you get passed the sheer scope of the game, and it was GOTY. Smash Bros Brawl may become a footnote in the tournament scene, though even this would surprise me, given the almost gaurentee of this games future popularity, but it will be a player's choice game that meets Melee in terms of sales, with good cause. I base this on history. If things turn out any different, I'll eat my hat.

No ones cares about sales or "casual gamers" on the Boards at least since SWF was made for the competitive scene . He was talking about Brawl being shallow compared to Melee which it is...even though it will be a competitive game.

 

[Neko06]

No ones cares about sales or "casual gamers" on the Boards

That much is appearent.

even though it will be a competitive game.

Maybe, I've seen many arguments for and against even among you tourney guys in this thread alone.

 

[payasofobia]

there is a way to make brawl play like melee
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141682&page=1
i know some of you have already seen this but some people havent

 

[PauloS]

You realize the average joe with a life doesn't care about this. They're going to buy Brawl, enjoy it, and not notice much of a difference other than improvement. They're going to enjoy it as a multi-player experience like it was meant to be, not a ninja duel. They're not going to care about all these technical insignificance that didn't make it into the game. They're still going to have fun. "What the hell is wavedashing?"

I wanna see the average joe with a life keep playin it online (which is what they want you to do..) after 100 matches against people who stall it with infinite up-Bs on the ledge, not being able to do anything..

I'm all the way with Synikal on this one.. It's NOT THE LACK OF WAVEDASHING AND L-CANCELLING glitches that bother us, it's the fact that instead of balancing the gameplay they changed it (THE OTHER GAMEPLAY aspects [edgeguarding, crouch cancelling, etc.], forget wavedashing and l-cancelling, I don't care about those..) -> AND they changed it to a LOT WORSE...

Like I said, I wanna see the average Joe having fun being absolutely owned every **** time by people who abuse the right items (in matches with those enabled), final smashes and the UBER ridiculous auto-sweetspot feature..

I still find the game pretty fun (have played it for a couple of days now..) and it's a GREAT party game, don't get me wrong.. I've had great laughs and very funny kills on different stages with different characters, the game has MUCH MORE VARIETY than Melee EVER HAD, more creative stages and items, and the graphics are pretty cool as well, BUT it's depth in terms of COMPETITIVE (I'll say it again, COMPETITIVE..) gameplay has been severely damaged...

 

[SynikaL]

Just to qualify something:

I never stated the Ike vs. Fox situation was a true Infinite Stall. I was simply using the anecdote to support my ideas regarding how difficult it is to edge guard in this game.


-Kye