Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Wintermelon43]

I like that word. I'd also like to see said match where Zero is beaten by Samus.

I think the real problem, though, is not my egocentrism, it's your desperate will to keep holding onto a character with no potential. I don't really understand why you put so much time and energy into defending Samus (or Marth, for that matter). Why are you so determined? I think you are the one who needs to explain yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df3AXrjqCxg Here it is.

 

[Xandercosm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df3AXrjqCxg Here it is.

Thanks you, sir.

Bowserboy3 lack of MU knowledge, as usual. That set means absolutely nothing.

 

[Deleted member]

Thanks you, sir.

Bowserboy3 lack of MU knowledge, as usual. That set means absolutely nothing.

Do you even read your own posts sometimes?

 

[A10theHero]

I really don't feel like Lucario should be in tier 3. He has too many issues to be that high up, and lacks any consistent results in nationals. I can't name any actual relevant Lucario players bar Day and Shin

I agree that Lucario might've been better placed in tier 4.
Though I do want to mention that there are really good Lucario players in Japan. One such player is Motsunabe, who won Umebura in December.

 

[Dusk Pit]

Pretty sure that Dark Pit's Ftilt now has the same sweetspot on the end as Pit's.
I'll test it now, actually.

Pit's arrows are better, definitely, but they don't set up for anything. They can gimp, but that can be character dependent, and shouldn't happen with smart play: Worst they can do is force you to recover low.

Dark Pit's arrows are basically just for forcing an air dodge/jump from your opponent while recovering, or for pressuring at a distance.

I stand by the fact that Dark Pit's side B is MUCH stronger than Pit's, and this one factor places him higher.

EDIT: Dark Pit's Ftilt does indeed have a sweetspot on the end that deals the same damage (10%) as Pit's. HOWEVER, Pit's has much higher knockback. I concede defeat on this one point, but I stand by my opinion that the recent buffs have given Dark Pit a much better standing.

I agree with you here. Many Pit players tend to overestimate Pit's arrows, they are great projectile but not as great as many claim since they are just a low % projectile with a minimum knockback and no combo potential. They can gimp but that shouldn't happen very often outside of for glory (I have seen some though). Good nuisance off stage but that's pretty much it. I would say Dark Pit's arrows are better on stage thanks to their better damage, speed, knockback and the fact that he can shoot 2 consecutive arrows faster than Pit if they miss.

Dark Pit's side b indeed got a huge buff and it is his best kill move now (in terms of KO potential) KOing Mario on fd at respawn point with proper DI at 103% and at the very edge at 80% while Pit's KOs at 142%. Center stage it's about the same with both Pits.

Dpit's ftilt could use some buff though to make up for the lesser knockback. Not a huge deal but Pit's is definitely better atm.

They aren't different enough to justify a separate tier spot though. It all just comes down to preferences.
Better arrows on stage: Dark Pit
Better arrows off stage: Pit
Better side b: Dark Pit
Better f tilt: Pit

 

[Xandercosm]

Do you even read your own posts sometimes?

Do you even read yours? Stop taking yourself so seriously.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I like that word. I'd also like to see said match where Zero is beaten by Samus.

I think the real problem, though, is not my egocentrism, it's your desperate will to keep holding onto a character with no potential. I don't really understand why you put so much time and energy into defending Samus (or Marth, for that matter). Why are you so determined? I think you are the one who needs to explain yourself.

Me explain myself to you? What, for like the thrid time? I see no point, because as you have yet again shown, you clearly don't read or take into account the opinions of others or you would know everything that I have said to you time and time again.

Y'know, I think that Jigglypuff is pretty bad, possibly the worst character in the game. However, I know there are people who invest time into the character, and as bad as Jigglypuff might be, you can't deny that she has strengths (such as good wall of pain ability, great aerial mobility etc). You on the other hand focus solely on a characters weaknesses, and stop right there, without stopping to acknowledge the characters strengths or merits. I am not really bothered if you think Samus is bottom 10 or not, but you really need to start realising that every character has some sort of strength, something Samus happens to have quite a lot of, amongst all of her weaknesses.

Saying that Samus has no potential when a player managed to beat not only the best character in the game, but also the best player in the game using her is a is a joke. If anything, it gives Samus mains hope, and that she does indeed have potential when played at her best. Putting it down to lack of matchup knowledge is the same as somebody saying that Nairo losing to Toon Link was purely lack of matchup knowledge. I could understand it if they were newbies playing the game, but top players like ZeRo and Nairo? If they have lack of matchup knowledge then their status as the best players in the game is pretty questionable.

Also, if players didn't "keep holding onto" characters like Samus, Jigglypuff, Dedede, Ganon etc, then no strengths or developments of them would ever come to light. This is a reason why Ally dropping Mario is so devastating. His metagame could end up becoming pretty static, causing him to drop in the long run (personally, I don't see this happening, but it's a reality that could come true).

 

[Smudges]

Do you even read yours? Stop taking yourself so seriously.

This place is meant for serious discussion.

Bowserboy3 lack of MU knowledge, as usual. That set means absolutely nothing.

Lack of MU knowledge is important to take into consideration.

According to you, if a low tier character wins, that game/set is invalid, just because the other player doesn't know the MU? That makes no sense. THIS is what @Feelicks was referring to when he said

Do you even read your own posts sometimes?

Next:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
N/A:

Pretty spot on tier list. I have... hmm... three complaints, two of which you have already addressed.
1. Mewtwo is too low
2. Samus is too high. LOW. Too low. Whoops.

The last problem I have is that Ryu is too high. Ryu is undoubtedly high tier, just not S tier : Ryu didn't make top 8 at Genesis 3. etc. I think that Ryu is definitely A tier though...

I could also complain about Pikachu being too high, but nah

 

[Deleted member]

You all can say Samus is bad, but she's nowhere near as ghastly as Jigglypuff. Samus isn't even close to bottom 5, bottom 10 even.

 

[Smudges]

Samus is definitely viable, more viable that Jigglypuff. I'd also say Palutena (Considering Non-Customs environment), but somebody is bound to yell at me, and I'm not very well versed in Palutena.

Samus has Zair and missiles for spacing. She has Charge shot, which kills at the edge. Decent killpower in Bair and sweetspot Fsmash (Which comes out pretty quick). She has a good recovery, and decent edgeguard.
She also has good survivability, and is floaty, so she doesn't get comboed TOO hard, although she is also big, and her floatyness makes her really susceptible to MK's uair strings.

 

[Dusk Pit]

Samus isn't bottom 5, neither is palutena. Samus has her flaws but at least she has some tools to make up for them, good combos and decent frame data for example + she lives long. Palutena has a poor frame data but her aerials are all good, excluding dair. Her bair and uair are amazing, nair is very effective edgeguard tool and fair is good for spacing and combos. Her dthrow combos are good as well.

They have some issues but not as bad/many as Jiggly or Duck Hunt who really don't have much stuff going for them.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Samus isn't bottom 5, neither is palutena. Samus has her flaws but at least she has some tools to make up for them, good combos and decent frame data for example + she lives long. Palutena has a poor frame data but her aerials are all good, excluding dair. Her bair and uair are amazing, nair is very effective edgeguard tool and fair is good for spacing and combos. Her dthrow combos are good as well.

They have some issues but not as bad/many as Jiggly or Duck Hunt who really don't have much stuff going for them.

I also like how all the attacks involving Palutena's shield can block projectiles and that part of her is invulnerable during the attacks IIRC...

 

[Deleted member]

Samus vs. MK has probably got to be one of the most savage matchups in the entire game. She literally gets bodied so hard by him in literally every aspect, and her floatiness doesn't help when Meta Knight is an amazing juggler and can kill her very early out of the uair -> Shuttle Loop string.

But on the subject of Palutena, I'm no expert on her but I'll say that people don't realize that her results are much better than peeps think they are. AeroLink is still putting in work with her (he made Top 32 at a recent tourney using only her, iirc), and IceNinja won a Canadian national using only her as well, even beating Wizzrobe's Sheik there in Grand Finals. Prince Ramen is also a solo Palutena main here in Florida who's ranked #1 on Central Florida Power Rankings, which is pretty damn impressive. She's still a bad character, but she definitely has got some stuff and some good players willing to do their best with her.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Samus vs. MK has probably got to be one of the most savage matchups in the entire game.

This. Unfortunately for Samus, one opening can lead to the end of a stock for her.

 

[DMWN]

I'm confident with this version of my list, but with enough interest I'll start revising them daily.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
Z:

-Put Samus at the top of E, just to be safe. I feel everyone in D either does what she does better than she does or counters what she does well, with a few exceptions.
-Moved Mewtwo up quite a lot after some thought.
-Moved Palutena one spot up, effectively considering Zelda second-to-last on the list. From the looks of it, Palutena may end up rising a few more places with the next list, should there be one.

To whoever put Charizard and Bowser in the places I'd said they ought to be earlier, I thank you. You saved me a bit of time there.

Smudges I see you're a Ryu main, so I've definitely taken your feedback into account. This part of the list is entirely subjective based on what I believe he's capable of. If there are any other questions about his placement, I'll knock him back down to A and we'll decide from there. Thank you for the feedback!

---

Since many seem to agree that I'm running a fairly accurate tier list, I'd be more than happy to update this until the real deal gets booted back up. That is, if enough people are interested in contributing their ideas to this list rather than their own.
Please keep in mind that, should this idea take off, I'll only be accepting of feedback with evidence and/or realism. This list is said to be pretty accurate as-is, and I would not like to jeopardize that with loose votes. I will try to see things from every perspective, however.

 

[Smudges]

To whoever put Charizard and Bowser in the places I'd said they ought to be earlier, I thank you. You saved me a bit of time there.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
N/A:

You're welcome.

Smudges I see you're a Ryu main, so I've definitely taken your feedback into account. This part of the list is entirely subjective based on what I believe he's capable of. If there are any other complaints about his placement, I'll knock him back down to A and we'll decide from there. Thank you for the feedback!

Thanks. I definitely think that he COULD be S tier, given :
Great damage racking ability
Great kill potential + Setups into kill moves
Fairly safe on shield with Bair + Good shield pressure in general (Sourspot Fair, Collarbone Breaker, Dthrow in doubles)
Good mobility (Air speed + FA)
Good Recovery (Good range, if a little obvious/telegraphed)

However, I feel that we just need to see more results from him.

 

[Dusk Pit]

I'm confident with this version of my list, but with enough interest I'll start revising them daily.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
Z:

-Put Samus at the top of E, just to be safe. I feel everyone in D either does what she does better than she does or counters what she does well, with a few exceptions.
-Moved Palutena one spot up, effectively considering Zelda second-to-last on the list. From the looks of it, Palutena may end up rising a few more places with the next list, should there be one.

To whoever put Charizard and Bowser in the places I'd said they ought to be earlier, I thank you. You saved me a bit of time there.

Smudges I see you're a Ryu main, so I've definitely taken your feedback into account. This part of the list is entirely subjective based on what I believe he's capable of. If there are any other questions about his placement, I'll knock him back down to A and we'll decide from there. Thank you for the feedback!

---

Since many seem to agree that I'm running a fairly accurate tier list, I'd be more than happy to update this until the real deal gets booted back up. That is, if enough people are interested in contributing their ideas to this list rather than their own.
Please keep in mind that, should this idea take off, I'll only be accepting of feedback with evidence and/or realism. This list is said to be pretty accurate as-is, and I would not like to jeopardize that with loose votes. I will try to see things from every perspective, however.

I'd switch Falco's and kirby's places, and Duck Hunt's and Palutena's. Still, very nice list.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I promisSed a Tier List. Here's a tier list. This is the first full one I made, so please help me out.

S:

A:

A-:

B:

C:

D:

E:

N/A:


Again, criticism is appreciated.

S is Top Tier, the undeniable best characters in the game,
A and A- are High Tier, the best characters in the game after the Top Tiers,
B and C are Mid Tier, solid characters with good and/or potentially untapped potential,
D is Mid-Low Tier, average characters with decent potentials but probably aren't gonna win any tournaments,
And E is Low Tier. The characters in here might not be all taht bad, but we either haven't seen man results with them or they have faults the characters above them can explore.

 

[DMWN]

You're welcome.

Ah, I figured that was you! My apologies--I know this list was thrown around in some other quotes, so I figured you could have quoted someone else who had potentially made the change. Thanks again!
I agree with your points on Ryu--particularly with his lack of results. It is for this reason why his days in S are numbered, depending on whether or not someone speaks up.

I'd switch Falco's and kirby's places, and Duck Hunt's and Palutena's. Still, very nice list.

Now, I don't believe Falco is that bad. Come to think of it, I don't think that way of Kirby either. Hm...
Palutena and Duck Hunt switching is realizable given the statistics @Feelicks kindly supplied. At best, however, Palutena will end up rising to that tier rather than knocking Duck Hunt down.
Thank you for the feedback!

 

[Smudges]

I promisSed a Tier List. Here's a tier list. This is the first full one I made, so please help me out.

S:

A:

A-:

B:

C:

D:

E:

N/A:


Again, criticism is appreciated.

Game and watch is missing?

I don't know why Donkey Kong is so low. The Ding Dong really gives him good setups/KO potential, and he has massive grab range to boot. Put him in C tier

I think that Tink should be higher than C tier. He's definitely a top contender in mid tier: I'd say middle of B, perhaps below Lucas. This is because Tink has really good itemplay, and good zoning ability, as well as solid KO potential and good setups. Also, he converts really well off of Utilt and bomb.

Ness is too low. He's got really, really good throw combos, the Back Throw, and setups into both of these. His edgeguard is decent, and although he has a few bad matchups (Mostly characters with absorbtion moves/reflectors, and also faster charcters) he has really solid tournament results on top.

All in all, I like your list too.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Game and watch is missing?

I don't know why Donkey Kong is so low. The Ding Dong really gives him good setups/KO potential, and he has massive grab range to boot. Put him in C tier

I think that Tink should be higher than C tier. He's definitely a top contender in mid tier: I'd say middle of B, perhaps below Lucas. This is because Tink has really good itemplay, and good zoning ability, as well as solid KO potential and good setups. Also, he converts really well off of Utilt and bomb.

All in all, I like your list too.

Did I really miss him. If only he wasn't a dark grey blod on a black background on a dim monitor. Fixing that right now.

I'll make a new one once I get more suggestions.

 

[Deleted member]

If this were several months ago, I'd be crying foul at so many people putting Dedede into bottom five. Now I've just pretty much accepted it as reality because it's true. He's gotten literally no help from patches while so many characters have gotten improvements through said patches and have gotten further metagame developments compared to Dedede, so he's left in the dust while his already awful MU spread is being impaired even more. The life of maining this penguin, man.

I promisSed a Tier List. Here's a tier list. This is the first full one I made, so please help me out.

S:

A:

A-:

B:

C:

D:

E:

N/A:


Again, criticism is appreciated.

S is Top Tier, the undeniable best characters in the game,
A and A- are High Tier, the best characters in the game after the Top Tiers,
B and C are Mid Tier, solid characters with good and/or potentially untapped potential,
D is Mid-Low Tier, average characters with decent potentials but probably aren't gonna win any tournaments,
And E is Low Tier. The characters in here might not be all taht bad, but we either haven't seen man results with them or they have faults the characters above them can explore.

This is nice overall but I do have some problems with it.

• Like Smudges said, DK is too low. Put him at the bottom of B tier.
• Mewtwo is a tad too high. Pac-Man would fit better above Greninja, Falco should be in D tier. Probably above Mac and Marth.
• Kirby is no way on this Earth better than Toon Link or any of the character below him in C tier. Put him at the top of D.
• Not feeling Roy's placement. He really isn't a better character than R.O.B. or Robin, not to mention both character have have a much larger playerbase and more notable results than Roy. Put him above Link in C tier.
• Wii Fit Trainer is far too low. Middle of C would be far more accurate.
• Shulk is too high. He's never made top 32 at any Smash 4 national in the recent months and his presence in the current metagame is very weak. Above Lucina in D tier would be more justified.
• Ganon is not the worst character in the game. Not at all. Bottom 5 is plausible, but not absolute worst. (that actually reminds me, the bottom 3 you have are the exact same way the Brawl tier list has its bottom 3)

 

[Smudges]

• Not feeling Roy's placement. He really isn't a better character than R.O.B. or Robin, not to mention both character have have a much larger playerbase and more notable results than Roy. Put him above Link in C tier.

This. Totally forgot about ROB (Weird, considering I mained him at one point). ROB is better than Roy, due to Gyro Setups, better spacing tools, better recovery, etc.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I'm confident with this version of my list, but with enough interest I'll start revising them daily.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
Z:

-Put Samus at the top of E, just to be safe. I feel everyone in D either does what she does better than she does or counters what she does well, with a few exceptions.
-Moved Mewtwo up quite a lot after some thought.
-Moved Palutena one spot up, effectively considering Zelda second-to-last on the list. From the looks of it, Palutena may end up rising a few more places with the next list, should there be one.

To whoever put Charizard and Bowser in the places I'd said they ought to be earlier, I thank you. You saved me a bit of time there.

Smudges I see you're a Ryu main, so I've definitely taken your feedback into account. This part of the list is entirely subjective based on what I believe he's capable of. If there are any other questions about his placement, I'll knock him back down to A and we'll decide from there. Thank you for the feedback!

---

Since many seem to agree that I'm running a fairly accurate tier list, I'd be more than happy to update this until the real deal gets booted back up. That is, if enough people are interested in contributing their ideas to this list rather than their own.
Please keep in mind that, should this idea take off, I'll only be accepting of feedback with evidence and/or realism. This list is said to be pretty accurate as-is, and I would not like to jeopardize that with loose votes. I will try to see things from every perspective, however.

Mac is TOO low. He is in no way below Duck Hunt, perhaps even G&W.Also roy is imo better than link.

 

[Zerp]

I swear you guys only go after the characters I don't feel solidly on about their placement, is it just a coincidence, or is it just really, really, really apparent which characters I feel uncertain about?

Spoiler: Wall of text

Going to separate this stuff into characters because it's unmanageable otherwise, hope that doesn't bug you guys.

I like polite criticism, so here is some!

Marth is a solid character, but I do think you placed a couple of characters below him that should be above him, namely Greninja and Toon Link, mainly because they just have more reliable matchup spreads than Marth. And of course, the usual, Lucina is still too far away from Marth. I would also like to say that I do respect the fact that Marth is lots safer than Roy in many ways, but you can't deny that Roy has a much better combo game than Marth. That alone warrants him in a tier 4 position by my thinking, but hey.

Overall, nice list. I like the BL thinking. It makes perfect sense, especially when looking at Rosalina, good idea!

I agree on Roy's combo game being better than Marth's but I personally feel like it still wouldn't be enough for him to be in the same tier as Marth.

Toon Link I'm kind of eh on, I'm not sure whether or not I want to raise him up or not, I can see why you'd think he should be higher since he does have good results, is very mobile, etc, but I just don't personally think he belongs any higher than he is.

I'll admit I'm not very solid on Greninja though, I don't understand the character well at all and really did not and still don't have a good idea how to place him, so I'm going to take your word for it and trust that he is better than Marth.

Lucina I'm pretty iffy on too, on one hand I feel she's definitely lower than Marth, but on the other, most of how I feel about Lucina is based off of my younger brother's perspective (former Marth main) who's biases on the subject are pretty heavy, and I'm worried that maybe that bias is getting in the way of me seeing her for what she truly is. I don't really know what to do with her.

I really don't feel like Lucario should be in tier 3. He has too many issues to be that high up, and lacks any consistent results in nationals. I can't name any actual relevant Lucario players bar Day and Shiny.

Pac-Man is not better than the Pits, and Villager should be in tier 2 above Yoshi. He's notably more effective than most of the characters you placed above him in tier 3, except maaaybe Ness.

Kirby is also too high in my opinion. More viable than Wii Fit Trainer, Robin or Greninja? I'm not seeing that. Robin is also much better than Marth.

Your right with Pac-man, his placement is a mistake on my part, I don't think he's as good as where I placed him, but I placed him there because.... uh... I don't actually know. My bad.

I'm going to be completely honest, Lucario's mostly a mystery to me, along with Greninja, Captain Falcon, and Shulk, I personally don't understand where to place those characters. I trust you though, so if you don't mind me asking, where do you think Lucario should go?

I'm happy that you pointed out Robin's placement, I was actually going to put Robin a tier higher but backed off, since one of my closest friends mains a pretty phenomenal Robin, I thought that was just my own personal bias making me think he had to be higher, I'm actually glad to see that's not the case and that other people think he should be higher.

Now, for Villager, I disagree, I think they are both fine where they are, despite Villager's immense results and influence in the meta, I just feel like he's less powerful than everyone above him, while I do factor in results I'm mainly going off of my personal perceptions of how strong a character is in optimal play, and I just don't feel like Villager is that good despite all the crazy things he can pull off. I do have some biases that could be affecting my perception, I used to secondary Villager, albeit very briefly, but still, a potential bias is a potential bias, so feel free to take what I say about Villager with a grain of salt.

Why is Bowser Jr. that low?

I don't see Bowser Jr as being very good at all, he's got crippling flaws, like his cannon's speed, a lot of his character is based around gimmicks, and he doesn't have much to make up for it in my opinion so I put him pretty low.

If this were several months ago, I'd be crying foul at so many people putting Dedede into bottom five. Now I've just pretty much accepted it as reality because it's true. He's gotten literally no help from patches while so many characters have gotten improvements through said patches and have gotten further metagame developments compared to Dedede, so he's left in the dust while his already awful MU spread is being impaired even more. The life of maining this penguin, man.

You already know this, but Dedede's not alone in the "I got neglected to death" club, Jigglypuff's in the exact same scenario, so hey, at the very least, he's got a pal, that counts for something, right?

Spoiler: Tier list with revisions

Pichu tier:
1:1.5/BL
2:
3:3.5/ BL:
4:
5:5.5/BL:
6:6.5/BL:
7:
I have no clue, the tier:

Is this any better?

Anyways, thank you all for the input and being polite, I appreciate it .

And just in case, sorry if I missed any character, I'm really tired and kinda sick right now.

 

[Xandercosm]

Me explain myself to you? What, for like the thrid time? I see no point, because as you have yet again shown, you clearly don't read or take into account the opinions of others or you would know everything that I have said to you time and time again.

Y'know, I think that Jigglypuff is pretty bad, possibly the worst character in the game. However, I know there are people who invest time into the character, and as bad as Jigglypuff might be, you can't deny that she has strengths (such as good wall of pain ability, great aerial mobility etc). You on the other hand focus solely on a characters weaknesses, and stop right there, without stopping to acknowledge the characters strengths or merits. I am not really bothered if you think Samus is bottom 10 or not, but you really need to start realising that every character has some sort of strength, something Samus happens to have quite a lot of, amongst all of her weaknesses.

Saying that Samus has no potential when a player managed to beat not only the best character in the game, but also the best player in the game using her is a is a joke. If anything, it gives Samus mains hope, and that she does indeed have potential when played at her best. Putting it down to lack of matchup knowledge is the same as somebody saying that Nairo losing to Toon Link was purely lack of matchup knowledge. I could understand it if they were newbies playing the game, but top players like ZeRo and Nairo? If they have lack of matchup knowledge then their status as the best players in the game is pretty questionable.

Also, if players didn't "keep holding onto" characters like Samus, Jigglypuff, Dedede, Ganon etc, then no strengths or developments of them would ever come to light. This is a reason why Ally dropping Mario is so devastating. His metagame could end up becoming pretty static, causing him to drop in the long run (personally, I don't see this happening, but it's a reality that could come true).

I, for one, am a strong believer that many characters should be played. I'm the one always saying that it's a shame that Sheik and ZSS are so dominant in the metagame and that I wish that other characters were given more attention too. But, I think that there are some characters in this game that have so many weaknesses that they outweigh their strengths.

This is how I feel in the case of Samus. I don't mean to judge anyone, and, by any means keep playing and developing Samus. However, I don't feel as though she has enough potential to be present in the metagame as it stands. Don't let me stop you, though. I'd like to be proven wrong. I have been overly negative about certain characters in the past. For example, I used to think Doc was awful and not worth playing, but when Nairo used him against ESAM so proficiently, I saw his potential.

Maybe I just have to be convinced. At the moment, though, I have serious doubts about Samus' competitive future due to her glaring weaknesses (bad hitboxes, combo food frame, bad frame data, weak specials, etc). I really hope that in the coming patch she will receive the buffs she deserves so that she can be a more viable and balanced character overall.

I promisSed a Tier List. Here's a tier list. This is the first full one I made, so please help me out.

S:

A:

A-:

B:

C:

D:

E:

N/A:


Again, criticism is appreciated.

S is Top Tier, the undeniable best characters in the game,
A and A- are High Tier, the best characters in the game after the Top Tiers,
B and C are Mid Tier, solid characters with good and/or potentially untapped potential,
D is Mid-Low Tier, average characters with decent potentials but probably aren't gonna win any tournaments,
And E is Low Tier. The characters in here might not be all taht bad, but we either haven't seen man results with them or they have faults the characters above them can explore.

Meta Knight is definitely too low. How are Cloud and Fox above him? Cloud has no consistent throw followups, no kill confirms (from what I know), a significantly worse recovery, among many other glaring flaws. Fox, also has no consistent throw followups, few combos, extremely few kill confirms, etc.

Meta Knight, however, suffers from none of these issues. Also, as I said a while back, I think it's far too early to put Cloud in anything but mid to low-high tier. Maybe when his metagame develops more, he will deserve a higher placement, though, but I doubt it. Currently, I think he is undergoing the same process Roy did. Remember, Roy was considered high tier by many soon after he was released but then dropped to low-mid.

I am just interested to know your reasoning.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I think we should talk about who we think are bottom characters. The Mii Fighters included. I personally think it is this(From 5-1):

 

[Furret24]

I, for one, am a strong believer that many characters should be played. I'm the one always saying that it's a shame that Sheik and ZSS are so dominant in the metagame and that I wish that other characters were given more attention too. But, I think that there are some characters in this game that have so many weaknesses that they outweigh their strengths.

This is how I feel in the case of Samus. I don't mean to judge anyone, and, by any means keep playing and developing Samus. However, I don't feel as though she has enough potential to be present in the metagame as it stands. Don't let me stop you, though. I'd like to be proven wrong. I have been overly negative about certain characters in the past. For example, I used to think Doc was awful and not worth playing, but when Nairo used him against ESAM so proficiently, I saw his potential.

Maybe I just have to be convinced. At the moment, though, I have serious doubts about Samus' competitive future due to her glaring weaknesses (bad hitboxes, combo food frame, bad frame data, weak specials, etc). I really hope that in the coming patch she will receive the buffs she deserves so that she can be a more viable and balanced character overall.



Meta Knight is definitely too low. How are Cloud and Fox above him? Cloud has no consistent throw followups, no kill confirms (from what I know), a significantly worse recovery, among many other glaring flaws. Fox, also has no consistent throw followups, few combos, extremely few kill confirms, etc.

Meta Knight, however, suffers from none of these issues. Also, as I said a while back, I think it's far too early to put Cloud in anything but mid to low-high tier. Maybe when his metagame develops more, he will deserve a higher placement, though, but I doubt it. Currently, I think he is undergoing the same process Roy did. Remember, Roy was considered high tier by many soon after he was released but then dropped to low-mid.

I am just interested to know your reasoning.

What about Samus' strengths though (great combo game, bair, CS, versatile recovery, uair, solid kill options and setups, good range)?

Yes, she has multiple glaring flaws, but this doesn't mean you should just write off the character.

I don't get how you can discredit a Samus taking a set off Zero. I don't care if there was MU inexperience (which is unlikely) or not, a Samus still took a set off arguably the best Smash 4 player in the world (so far anyway).

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I, for one, am a strong believer that many characters should be played. I'm the one always saying that it's a shame that Sheik and ZSS are so dominant in the metagame and that I wish that other characters were given more attention too. But, I think that there are some characters in this game that have so many weaknesses that they outweigh their strengths.

This is how I feel in the case of Samus. I don't mean to judge anyone, and, by any means keep playing and developing Samus. However, I don't feel as though she has enough potential to be present in the metagame as it stands. Don't let me stop you, though. I'd like to be proven wrong. I have been overly negative about certain characters in the past. For example, I used to think Doc was awful and not worth playing, but when Nairo used him against ESAM so proficiently, I saw his potential.

Maybe I just have to be convinced. At the moment, though, I have serious doubts about Samus' competitive future due to her glaring weaknesses (bad hitboxes, combo food frame, bad frame data, weak specials, etc). I really hope that in the coming patch she will receive the buffs she deserves so that she can be a more viable and balanced character overall.



Meta Knight is definitely too low. How are Cloud and Fox above him? Cloud has no consistent throw followups, no kill confirms (from what I know), a significantly worse recovery, among many other glaring flaws. Fox, also has no consistent throw followups, few combos, extremely few kill confirms, etc.

Meta Knight, however, suffers from none of these issues. Also, as I said a while back, I think it's far too early to put Cloud in anything but mid to low-high tier. Maybe when his metagame develops more, he will deserve a higher placement, though, but I doubt it. Currently, I think he is undergoing the same process Roy did. Remember, Roy was considered high tier by many soon after he was released but then dropped to low-mid.

I am just interested to know your reasoning.

I actually want to mention something from some of your previous posts which ties in with what you said about Doctor Mario. Esam more than likely had the same Doc experience Zero had, zero. So I personally do not see how you can praise Doc(Who also lost 2 games vs esam and nairo brought it back with ZSS) but not also praise Samus. Samus is Bottom 10, but at the very top. The previous me had her as the worst, but I learned that she can be a SCARY threat.

 

[Smudges]

I think we should talk about who we think are bottom characters. The Mii Fighters included. I personally think it is this(From 5-1):

Ganondorf is a Bottom Five character. Although he has massive damage output and kill potential, combined with acceptable combos off of down throw (Nair, Uair, Fair mixups) and great techchase potential with Flame Choke, he has ZERO approach options. Wizard Kick sucks, and Flame Choke is easy to dodge and obvious. His poor mobility and grab range means that rushing in and grabbing isn't an option for him. He can't deal with projectiles, or fast characters in general.

For sure, at this point, is Jigglypuff. The reverse-Little Mac gimmick of "Great air game, poor ground game" doesn't work when her air game is still bad.

Zelda as well, although to a lesser extent: She has decent combos (Elevator, Throw combos) and good aerials (Fair, Bair, Dair) and a decent edgeguard, but her frame data SUCKS. It's slow, and her mobility in general is slow. She really can't get where she needs to be fast enough, and her specials don't help: Din's fire is almost useless, and Nyaru's love is bleah as a reflector and is slow on startup.

Let's talk about Samus. If I had to put her in bottom five , she would be at the top, and not even because she's bad (We've discussed this on this page/last page), but because she has almost NO tournament results to back her up. Her data, although I would consider it D-tier material, has NO results to justify being put out of bottom five.

I want to say Little Mac. He has SO many strengths: He kills really well, he has decent combos, and he has awesome frame data, but his recovery is so goddamn awful that at top level play, he really just can't compete. He can't deal with projectiles either, which makes it really hard for him to approach. He also has trouble dealing with shields: He has good shield pressure, but other than that, he's only got grab.

 

[Deleted member]

Let's talk about Samus. If I had to put her in bottom five , she would be at the top, and not even because she's bad (We've discussed this on this page/last page), but because she has almost NO tournament results to back her up. Her data, although I would consider it D-tier material, has NO results to justify being put out of bottom five.

Oh ffs.

Jonny Westside got top 8 at a major (2GGT: ESAM Saga) only using Samus, beating one of the best Luigis in SSB4 right now, Mr. ConCon, and even taking a game off ZeRo and narrowly beating him (ZeRo got him exactly at the last minute thanks to an amazing read on the last game). Depth is a PR'd solo Samus main here in Florida, and does well in state tournaments. You can even take a peek at the Samus tournament results thread on the Samus boards to see how well she can do well played optimally. This myth needs to die.

 

[Andyomon00]

Hello, this making of tier lists sounds fun and I hope you don't mind if I join in. If you disagree with anything please say so

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I was a little iffy on the placement of some characters, and I know for a fact that C and D tier will be somewhat controversial but hey whatever.

 

[Smudges]

Oh ffs.

Jonny Westside got top 8 at a major (2GGT: ESAM Saga) only using Samus, beating one of the best Luigis in SSB4 right now, Mr. ConCon, and even taking a game off ZeRo and narrowly beating him (ZeRo got him exactly at the last minute thanks to an amazing read on the last game). Depth is a PR'd solo Samus main here in Florida, and does well in state tournaments. You can even take a peek at the Samus tournament results thread on the Samus boards to see how well she can do well played optimally. This myth needs to die.

Ok then I apologize, I'd completely forgotten about Jonny Westside and Depth.

Let me adjust my argument then.

Samus doesn't really kill very well. No kill throws, missiles don't kill, Dsmash doesn't kill very well, Fsmash needs the sweetspot to kill at reasonable percents. Her tilts are pretty bad, except for Dtilt, and her aerials aren't outstanding. They're decent, but nothing special. Her jab is bad as well. Even charge shot kills pretty late, except at the edge.

She has all the tools to space and zone, but she doesn't really get any kill confirms out of her specials except with bomb, sorta. She keeps the opponent out, gets some damage, and then...? She needs a hard read, or punish in order to net a stock.

 

[FooltheFlames]

IS this what were doing now? I'll take my stab at it.


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Any criticism is welcome ^^

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Hello, this making of tier lists sounds fun and I hope you don't mind if I join in. If you disagree with anything please say so

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I was a little iffy on the placement of some characters, and I know for a fact that C and D tier will be somewhat controversial but hey whatever.

Charizard is not worse than Zelda, Jiggs, Palutena and Dedede, and Ganon isn't worse than Zelda, either. Charizard at least has gotten more tournament results than Little Mac, too.

 

[Furret24]

Ok then I apologize, I'd completely forgotten about Jonny Westside and Depth.

Let me adjust my argument then.

Samus doesn't really kill very well. No kill throws, missiles don't kill, Dsmash doesn't kill very well, Fsmash needs the sweetspot to kill at reasonable percents. Her tilts are pretty bad, except for Dtilt, and her aerials aren't outstanding. They're decent, but nothing special. Her jab is bad as well. Even charge shot kills pretty late, except at the edge.

She has all the tools to space and zone, but she doesn't really get any kill confirms out of her specials except with bomb, sorta. She keeps the opponent out, gets some damage, and then...? She needs a hard read, or punish in order to net a stock.

Bair and Screw Attack are pretty good. Uair can help lead into some of them too. As far as projectiles, CS pretty early (around 100%). Usmash is also fast and pretty strong (though it has issues hitting grounded opponents).

 

[Andyomon00]

Charizard is not worse than Zelda, Jiggs, Palutena and Dedede, and Ganon isn't worse than Zelda, either. Charizard at least has gotten more tournament results than Little Mac, too.

Not to be rude but can you show me results for Charizard or Ganon? In defense of Little Mac, his place on my tier list is for his insane rushdown ability on stage.

 

[Deleted member]

Ok then I apologize, I'd completely forgotten about Jonny Westside and Depth.

Let me adjust my argument then.

Samus doesn't really kill very well. No kill throws, missiles don't kill, Dsmash doesn't kill very well, Fsmash needs the sweetspot to kill at reasonable percents. Her tilts are pretty bad, except for Dtilt, and her aerials aren't outstanding. They're decent, but nothing special. Her jab is bad as well. Even charge shot kills pretty late, except at the edge.

She has all the tools to space and zone, but she doesn't really get any kill confirms out of her specials except with bomb, sorta. She keeps the opponent out, gets some damage, and then...? She needs a hard read, or punish in order to net a stock.

Samus' tilts are not bad. Up tilt is a powerful spike (and has more range and power than Falcon's, who basically has the same move), has confirms into dtilt to start combos and is a good OoS option and KO move. Forward tilt, despite it's odd sourspot comes out fast and gets opponents off her well enough to get the job done.

Charge Shot kills late? What?? The Charge Shot buff was one of (if not only) truly great improvement she got in this game, and the move is even more of a threat with Rage due to Samus' endurance potential.

Her aerials are very good. Forward air is the only truly iffy one out of all of them due to how tricky it is to space and hit somebody with all the hits. Her up air is one of the best in the game, so I dunno what you're thinking there. Multihit, does a good amount of damage, and she can chain it into another up air and eventually Screw Attack. Back air's also ridiculous, and the sweetspot for it really isn't that hard to hit. It's safe on shield, again has fast startup and kills reliably. Down air is a good edgeguarding tool since it's a swift spike, and its sourspot even KOs to the sides offstage. It'd be the best meteor smash in the game if they readjusted its hitbox to match the animation more, but it's still a rather good move.

Sorry if I came off as heated in this post, but I really disagreed with a lot of stuff you said and wanted to clear it up lol

 

[Smudges]

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Hmm. I wouldn't put Peach, Falcon, or Luigi in A tier.
I would put Megaman in C, along with Lucario. Everything else is fine.

Maybe I should explain

Falcon gets shut down by a lot of the top tier characters, because he lacks a way to deal with projectiles, and his linear recovery. Most of the top tier characters are either effective edgeguarders or have projectiles.
Falcon also doesn't really have too many combos, even out of down throw. Almost NOTHING combos into knee, and is avoidable through proper DI. His Uair doesn't kill anymore, and can't deal with shields outside of his grab.

Luigi has very little traction, so he slides all over the place. This means that he can't really punish anything out of shield. He has good combos, but after the nerf, he has no real kill confirms, except with Dthrow Up B, and only with bad DI at ~80%.

Peach has poor range and poor mobility. Her turnips are short ranged, and while she gets good combos out of Down throw, and she's got float dair for shield pokes/stabs, she can't get around fast enough, and too many characters outrange her.

Lucario has difficulty killing, because of the Aura Mechanic, and his frame data. His smashes are some of the slowest, and at low percents can't really kill. At high percents, they kill very well, but even so he has nothing to combo into it. He USED to have Aurasphere-cancel Usmash, but because of the hitstun modifier on it to remove shield locks, Aurasphere no longer links consistently into Usmash. In addition, he can only kill well at high percents, where even the smallest mistake can get you killed, especially against characters with good kill confirms ie. Ryu, Ness, Zss, etc.

Megaman has poor frame data, and mediocre combo game, along with situational approaches. He lacks a decent jab, a good "Getoffame", and is easily comboed due to his weight.

Bair and Screw Attack are pretty good. Uair can help lead into some of them too. As far as projectiles, CS pretty early (around 100%). Usmash is also fast and pretty strong (though it has issues hitting grounded opponents).

Charge Shot kills late? What?? The Charge Shot buff was one of (if not only) truly great improvement she got in this game, and the move is even more of a threat with Rage due to Samus' endurance potential.

I'm a complete idiot, I never even realized that this got buffed
Ignore me on ALL Samus advice in the future (Not really tho).
Duly noted.

Samus' tilts are not bad. Up tilt is a powerful spike (and has more range and power than Falcon's, who basically has the same move), has confirms into dtilt to start combos and is a good OoS option and KO move. Forward tilt, despite it's odd sourspot comes out fast and gets opponents off her well enough to get the job done.

Noted, except for Dtilt. I still think that move is acceptable at best.: It is only a spike on grounded opponents, and therefore can be teched.

Her aerials are very good. Forward air is the only truly iffy one out of all of them due to how tricky it is to space and hit somebody with all the hits. Her up air is one of the best in the game, so I dunno what you're thinking there. Multihit, does a good amount of damage, and she can chain it into another up air and eventually Screw Attack. Back air's also ridiculous, and the sweetspot for it really isn't that hard to hit. It's safe on shield, again has fast startup and kills reliably. Down air is a good edgeguarding tool since it's a swift spike, and its sourspot even KOs to the sides offstage. It'd be the best meteor smash in the game if they readjusted its hitbox to match the animation more, but it's still a rather good move.

Agree with Uair, Bair, and Fair.
Dair, I feel, has too much lag and is a tad slow. Agree to disagree?

Sorry if I came off as heated in this post, but I really disagreed with a lot of stuff you said and wanted to clear it up lol

Np, I was malinformed. Thanks, I actually learned a lot
Hope you don't think less of me.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Hello, this making of tier lists sounds fun and I hope you don't mind if I join in. If you disagree with anything please say so

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B:/

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I was a little iffy on the placement of some characters, and I know for a fact that C and D tier will be somewhat controversial but hey whatever.

Some feedback:
I feel like you overate a lot of the characters. Peach < Falcon Sonic, Villager, and Sonic is top 6 at least. Also, i feel like Peach and below, besides sonic and villager, both rising up a bit, should go to b tier. Also Rob is better than the pits and potentially ike, and definetly tink with Gyro Set ups. Mega man below current placed rob, drop megaman and below to c tier. Drop Shulk and below to d tier. Again, probably looks more like my tier list with the stuff said, but its not bad, again you just overate characters.