• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

Joined
Feb 14, 2015
Messages
1,927
Location
Sudbury, Ontario, Canada
NNID
Ridleylash
3DS FC
1736-1657-3905
Not to be rude but can you show me results for Charizard or Ganon?
http://smashboards.com/threads/level-up-charizard-tournament-results-thread.393519/
Here's a Smashboards thread for Charizard tourney results, but I know that Bloodcross placed 9th with Charizard at Final Battle 2015 and Trela placed 17th at CEO 2015 with Charizard. So Charizard clearly is good, but just requires a bit of work and a secondary to play around particularly disadvantageous matchups.

As for Ganon, that's where I'm not finding much; but I do know that there are a few Ganon mains that seem to indicate that there's some potential with the character; if only Vermanubis was still active in tournaments, then we'd probably see a massive shift in Ganon's placements.
 
Last edited:

Andyomon00

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
80
NNID
andtomon00
3DS FC
0301-9874-0642
http://smashboards.com/threads/level-up-charizard-tournament-results-thread.393519/
Here's a Smashboards thread for Charizard tourney results, but I know that Bloodcross placed 9th with Charizard at Final Battle 2015 and Trela placed 17th at CEO 2015 with Charizard. So Charizard clearly is good, but just requires a bit of work and a secondary to play around particularly disadvantageous matchups.

As for Ganon, that's where I'm not finding much; but I do know that there are a few Ganon mains that seem to indicate that there's some potential with the character; if only Vermanubis was still active in tournaments, then we'd probably see a massive shift in Ganon's placements.
Bloodcross also used both Fox and Diddy to get there. Trela used Shulk and Mii Swordsmen to get 17th. Just because someone places highly and they happen to use Charizard as a tertiary character at one point during the tournament doesn't mean that Charizard is suddenly good. Also locals don't count, as there is a limited player pool.

Charizard is not good, he has so many weaknesses that he's just unviable.
 

Smudges

and we're back.
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
804
NNID
Smudges0
S: :4sheik::4pikachu::4luigi::rosalina::4yoshi:

A::4zss::4lucas::4lucario::4ness::4diddy::4falcon::4villagerf::4sonic::4fox::4cloud:

B::4mario::4rob::4kirby::4greninja::4megaman::4ryu::4pit::4darkpit::4metaknight::4wario2:

C::4link::4pacman::4feroy::4olimar::4myfriends::4robinf::4tlink::4falco::4miibrawl::4gaw:

D::4marth::4shulk::4mewtwo::4bowser::4peach::4drmario::4miisword::4lucina::4dedede::4ganondorf:

E::4charizard::4dk::4jigglypuff::4wiifit::4bowserjr::4duckhunt::4samus::4miigun:

F::4palutena::4zelda::4littlemac:
Ok. I see lots of problems with this one.
Luigi is no longer top three material.
Luigi has very little traction, so he slides all over the place. This means that he can't really punish anything out of shield. He has good combos, but after the nerf, he has no real kill confirms, except with Dthrow Up B, and only with bad DI at ~80%.
Yoshi has the frame data, the combos, and the kill setups, but no tournament results. Most of us put him near the top of B tier.

Zss is CLEARLY S tier material. High damage output, incredible frame data, and kill confirms on almost every character starting from as low as 20%, and a true 0-Death on fast fallers. Also, a godlike punish game.

Lucas, unfortunately, is not A tier. I'd put him somewhere as Low B, High C. This is because Lucas lacks approach options. He can keep the opponent out with PK Fire, because it autospaces very well, and he can control the stage, but he still can't get in. He is also gimped by Rosa and Villager, although to a lesser extent than Ness. He also has very few tourney results, other than PinkFresh at Xanadu's.

Lucario has difficulty killing, because of the Aura Mechanic, and his frame data. His smashes are some of the slowest, and at low percents can't really kill. At high percents, they kill very well, but even so he has nothing to combo into it. He USED to have Aurasphere-cancel Usmash, but because of the hitstun modifier on it to remove shield locks, Aurasphere no longer links consistently into Usmash. In addition, he can only kill well at high percents, where even the smallest mistake can get you killed, especially against characters with good kill confirms ie. Ryu, Ness, Zss, etc.
Mario is easily A tier. He has all the tools that he needs: Frame data, Mobility, Recovery, Combos.
He racks up damage really well, he has a projectile (Although it's not the best), he has a good recovery and a stalling tool for mixups, and he's fast.

Kirby has bad mobility, and terrible range, with no approach options. He lacks a solid neutral to set up for his good edgeguard/kill moves.

Ryu is A tier
Great damage racking ability
Great kill potential + Setups into kill moves
Fairly safe on shield with Bair + Good shield pressure in general (Sourspot Fair, Collarbone Breaker, Dthrow in doubles)
Good mobility (Air speed + FA)
Good Recovery (Good range, if a little obvious/telegraphed)

However, I feel that we just need to see more results from him.
Megaman has poor frame data, and mediocre combo game, along with situational approaches. He lacks a decent jab, a good "Getoffame", and is easily comboed due to his weight.
Link is WAY high, and Tink is a bit low.
Toon Link can do vvvvvvvvv , Link can't.
I think that Tink should be higher than C tier. He's definitely a top contender in mid tier: I'd say middle of B, perhaps below Lucas. This is because Tink has really good itemplay, and good zoning ability, as well as solid KO potential and good setups. Also, he converts really well off of Utilt and bomb.
Link has throw combos and more power in his kill moves, but that's about it. Switch Tink and Link's placements.

Roy is not better than Ike, switch their placements. Ike has good throw combos, a good jab, and immense killpower, as well as mobility. Roy has some throw combos and good mobility, but his recovery is worse than Ike's (Arugably), and his combos do less damage. Roy's throws don't set up for kills at higher percents, and don't combo at all past ~50%. Ike's do. Ike also has more range, and kills earlier, on top of having more survivability.

I don't know why Donkey Kong is so low. The Ding Dong really gives him good setups/KO potential, and he has massive grab range to boot. Put him in C tier
Peach has flaws, but is definitely not that low.
Peach has poor range and poor mobility. Her turnips are short ranged, and while she gets good combos out of Down throw, and she's got float dair for shield pokes/stabs, she can't get around fast enough, and too many characters outrange her.
I'd put Captain Falcon at the top(ish) of B.
Falcon gets shut down by a lot of the top tier characters, because he lacks a way to deal with projectiles, and his linear recovery. Most of the top tier characters are either effective edgeguarders or have projectiles.
Falcon also doesn't really have too many combos, even out of down throw. Almost NOTHING combos into knee, and is avoidable through proper DI. His Uair doesn't kill anymore, and can't deal with shields outside of his grab.
WFT is really, really low on your list.
WFT has had a lot of her problems fixed, including her grab. She has a decent neutral game, and can camp edge pretty hard. She has a lot of zoning tools, and utility in healing. She has pretty good killpower, augmented by deep breathing, and she has Ok frame data. Low C, High D tier character.

Bowser Junior and DHD are too low IMO, but I don't know much about them.

LITTLE MAC IS NOT THE WORST IN THE GAME. By far, not the worst.
That title goes to Jigglypuff. It's almost undeniable at this point that Jigglypuff is just poor in this game.

Finally, you put Pit above Dark Pit. I just had a huge discussion about this. Dusk Pit sums it up pretty well.

I agree with you here. Many Pit players tend to overestimate Pit's arrows, they are great projectile but not as great as many claim since they are just a low % projectile with a minimum knockback and no combo potential. They can gimp but that shouldn't happen very often outside of for glory (I have seen some though). Good nuisance off stage but that's pretty much it. I would say Dark Pit's arrows are better on stage thanks to their better damage, speed, knockback and the fact that he can shoot 2 consecutive arrows faster than Pit if they miss.

Dark Pit's side b indeed got a huge buff and it is his best kill move now (in terms of KO potential) KOing Mario on fd at respawn point with proper DI at 103% and at the very edge at 80% while Pit's KOs at 142%. Center stage it's about the same with both Pits.

They aren't different enough to justify a separate tier spot though. It all just comes down to preferences.
Better arrows on stage: Dark Pit
Better arrows off stage: Pit
Better side b: Dark Pit
Better f tilt: Pit
 

Xandercosm

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 23, 2015
Messages
1,425
Location
the nearest neutron star!
NNID
vineto
Oh ffs.

Jonny Westside got top 8 at a major (2GGT: ESAM Saga) only using Samus, beating one of the best Luigis in SSB4 right now, Mr. ConCon, and even taking a game off ZeRo and narrowly beating him (ZeRo got him exactly at the last minute thanks to an amazing read on the last game). Depth is a PR'd solo Samus main here in Florida, and does well in state tournaments. You can even take a peek at the Samus tournament results thread on the Samus boards to see how well she can do well played optimally. This myth needs to die.
So where would YOU put Samus? Is she top tier since she beat Zero's Sheik? I can see the front page of Smashboards now: "Samus new SSS tier character! Rivals Brawl meta knight!"

It is 20XX. Everyone plays Samus with TAS perfection.
 

Smudges

and we're back.
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
804
NNID
Smudges0
So where would YOU put Samus? Is she top tier since she beat Zero's Sheik? I can see the front page of Smashboards now: "Samus new SSS tier character! Rivals Brawl meta knight!"

It is 20XX. Everyone plays Samus with TAS perfection.
No need for sarcasm. He's just saying that Samus is better than I made her out to be, and that the myth that she has no tourney results if false.
 

Smudges

and we're back.
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
804
NNID
Smudges0
No. Smashcapps said that. :smirk:
Hmm. Could've fooled me. He said it right here, if you read...
Jonny Westside got top 8 at a major (2GGT: ESAM Saga) only using Samus, beating one of the best Luigis in SSB4 right now, Mr. ConCon, and even taking a game off ZeRo and narrowly beating him (ZeRo got him exactly at the last minute thanks to an amazing read on the last game). Depth is a PR'd solo Samus main here in Florida, and does well in state tournaments. You can even take a peek at the Samus tournament results thread on the Samus boards to see how well she can do well played optimally. This myth needs to die.
Just because somebody else says something doesn't mean that another person can't reiterate.
 

L1N3R1D3R

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
1,035
Location
On my Switch
Switch FC
SW-3822-0133-6917
I might as well join in the fray.

1.:4sheik::4zss::rosalina:
2.:4ryu::4sonic::4diddy::4mario::4pikachu::4fox::4metaknight::4villager:
3.:4ness::4yoshi::4falcon::4myfriends::4cloud::4luigi::4rob::4wario:(:4pit::4darkpit:):4peach:
4.:4pacman::4tlink::4lucas::4olimar::4dk::4greninja::4marth::4lucario::4falco::4megaman::4link:
5.:4feroy::4mewtwo::4bowser::4robinm::4gaw::4kirby::4wiifit::4shulk::4lucina::4littlemac::4drmario:
6.:4samus::4charizard::4miisword::4duckhunt::4bowserjr::4dedede::4palutena::4miigun::4ganondorf:
7.:4zelda::4jigglypuff::4miibrawl:

Wii Fit is only that low because lack of representation besides John Numbers. And before you say "Lucina's lack of tipper doesn't make her that much worse than Marth", yes, it does.

EDIT: Moved Wii Fit Trainer up after rethinking it and being informed of other players.
 
Last edited:

Smudges

and we're back.
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
804
NNID
Smudges0
1.:4sheik::4zss::rosalina:
2.:4ryu::4sonic::4diddy::4mario::4pikachu::4fox::4metaknight::4villager:
3.:4ness::4yoshi::4falcon::4myfriends::4cloud::4luigi::4rob::4wario:(:4pit::4darkpit:):4peach:
4.:4pacman::4tlink::4lucas::4olimar::4dk::4greninja::4marth::4lucario::4falco::4megaman::4link:
5.:4feroy::4mewtwo::4bowser::4robinm::4gaw::4kirby::4shulk::4lucina::4littlemac::4drmario::4samus:
6.:4wiifit::4charizard::4miisword::4duckhunt::4bowserjr::4dedede::4palutena::4miigun::4ganondorf:
7.:4zelda::4jigglypuff::4miibrawl:
This list is ALSO good.
I have no complaints except that, again, Pit is above/the same as Dark Pit.
I agree with you here. Many Pit players tend to overestimate Pit's arrows, they are great projectile but not as great as many claim since they are just a low % projectile with a minimum knockback and no combo potential. They can gimp but that shouldn't happen very often outside of for glory (I have seen some though). Good nuisance off stage but that's pretty much it. I would say Dark Pit's arrows are better on stage thanks to their better damage, speed, knockback and the fact that he can shoot 2 consecutive arrows faster than Pit if they miss.

Dark Pit's side b indeed got a huge buff and it is his best kill move now (in terms of KO potential) KOing Mario on fd at respawn point with proper DI at 103% and at the very edge at 80% while Pit's KOs at 142%. Center stage it's about the same with both Pits.

They aren't different enough to justify a separate tier spot though. It all just comes down to preferences.
Better arrows on stage: Dark Pit
Better arrows off stage: Pit
Better side b: Dark Pit
Better f tilt: Pit
 

A10theHero

SSJ Fraud
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Messages
2,937
Location
The Hoenn region
NNID
A10theHero
Lucario has difficulty killing, because of the Aura Mechanic, and his frame data. His smashes are some of the slowest, and at low percents can't really kill. At high percents, they kill very well, but even so he has nothing to combo into it. He USED to have Aurasphere-cancel Usmash, but because of the hitstun modifier on it to remove shield locks, Aurasphere no longer links consistently into Usmash. In addition, he can only kill well at high percents, where even the smallest mistake can get you killed, especially against characters with good kill confirms ie. Ryu, Ness, Zss, etc.
Second Lucario-related post of the day. Lucario mains should give me a cookie!
The shield changes from last patch did not really negatively affect the consistency of Lucario's aura sphere to up smash--in fact, it helped it a little. The only option that doesn't work as well as before is Aura Sphere to Bair.
Also, when you mention the hitstun reduction on Lucario's aura sphere, you should also mention the other changes that happened too:
  • Horizontal air speed, fall speed, fastfall speed, and walk speed increased (Because of increased horizontal air speed and fall speed, it's easier to trap opponents with aura sphere from the air)
  • Neutral Special Charging 1/2/3
    • (Normal only) Angle 80 -> 83 (The angle is somewhat straighter, which should make up smash easier to land and bair harder to land)
    • KBG 100 -> 93 (Even though there's less hitstun on an individual hit, the lower knockback means that the opponent will fall back into the aura sphere charge sooner, getting them hit again.)
    • (Mega only) BKB 10 -> 12 (irrelevant to this discussion)
    • Hitlag modifier 1.0x -> 0.78x (The shieldlocking that was already pretty easy to get out of now doesn't work)
I don't know all of Lucario's kill options, but ledge trump to bair is also an--albeit not guaranteed--option for killing.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I might as well join in the fray.

1.:4sheik::4zss::rosalina:
2.:4ryu::4sonic::4diddy::4mario::4pikachu::4fox::4metaknight::4villager:
3.:4ness::4yoshi::4falcon::4myfriends::4cloud::4luigi::4rob::4wario:(:4pit::4darkpit:):4peach:
4.:4pacman::4tlink::4lucas::4olimar::4dk::4greninja::4marth::4lucario::4falco::4megaman::4link:
5.:4feroy::4mewtwo::4bowser::4robinm::4gaw::4kirby::4shulk::4lucina::4littlemac::4drmario::4samus:
6.:4wiifit::4charizard::4miisword::4duckhunt::4bowserjr::4dedede::4palutena::4miigun::4ganondorf:
7.:4zelda::4jigglypuff::4miibrawl:

Wii Fit is only that low because lack of representation besides John Numbers. And before you say "Lucina's lack of tipper doesn't make her that much worse than Marth", yes, it does.
"WFT has no rep besides John Numbers"

Bruh. Wii Twerk Trainer? Waveguider? Anti (even if he's mainly Mario)? TKbreezy?

Calling over Macchiato Macchiato considering he knows far more about Wii Fit than I do.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Smudges

and we're back.
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
804
NNID
Smudges0
Second Lucario-related post of the day. Lucario mains should give me a cookie!
The shield changes from last patch did not really negatively affect the consistency of Lucario's aura sphere to up smash--in fact, it helped it a little. The only option that doesn't work as well as before is Aura Sphere to Bair.
Also, when you mention the hitstun reduction on Lucario's aura sphere, you should also mention the other changes that happened too:
  • Horizontal air speed, fall speed, fastfall speed, and walk speed increased (Because of increased horizontal air speed and fall speed, it's easier to trap opponents with aura sphere from the air)
  • Neutral Special Charging 1/2/3
    • (Normal only) Angle 80 -> 83 (The angle is somewhat straighter, which should make up smash easier to land and bair harder to land)
    • KBG 100 -> 93 (Even though there's less hitstun on an individual hit, the lower knockback means that the opponent will fall back into the aura sphere charge sooner, getting them hit again.)
    • (Mega only) BKB 10 -> 12 (irrelevant to this discussion)
    • Hitlag modifier 1.0x -> 0.78x (The shieldlocking that was already pretty easy to get out of now doesn't work)
I don't know all of Lucario's kill options, but ledge trump to bair is also an--albeit not guaranteed--option for killing.
I'd like to see this Aurasphere Usmash buff :p

Yes, Lucario got a buff to his mobility: It still doesn't really solve his problem.

Lucario has difficulty killing, because of the Aura Mechanic, and his frame data. His smashes are some of the slowest, and at low percents can't really kill. At high percents, they kill very well, but even so he has nothing to combo into it. In addition, he can only kill well when he is at high percents, where even the smallest mistake can get you killed, especially against characters with good kill confirms ie. Ryu, Ness, Zss, etc.
 

Smudges

and we're back.
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
804
NNID
Smudges0
I'm just gonna list my S and A tiers for now, then come back to this later.

S: :4sheik::4zss:
A: :rosalina::4sonic::4fox::4diddy::4ryu::4mario::4metaknight: :4villager:
Sorry, but you're missing Pikachu. I know you just started your list, but that doesn't excuse forgetting one of the best contenders for top 5
 

Andyomon00

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
80
NNID
andtomon00
3DS FC
0301-9874-0642
I might as well join in the fray.

1.:4sheik::4zss::rosalina:
2.:4ryu::4sonic::4diddy::4mario::4pikachu::4fox::4metaknight::4villager:
3.:4ness::4yoshi::4falcon::4myfriends::4cloud::4luigi::4rob::4wario:(:4pit::4darkpit:):4peach:
4.:4pacman::4tlink::4lucas::4olimar::4dk::4greninja::4marth::4lucario::4falco::4megaman::4link:
5.:4feroy::4mewtwo::4bowser::4robinm::4gaw::4kirby::4shulk::4lucina::4littlemac::4drmario::4samus:
6.:4wiifit::4charizard::4miisword::4duckhunt::4bowserjr::4dedede::4palutena::4miigun::4ganondorf:
7.:4zelda::4jigglypuff::4miibrawl:

Wii Fit is only that low because lack of representation besides John Numbers. And before you say "Lucina's lack of tipper doesn't make her that much worse than Marth", yes, it does.
As a Former Marth main, Marth gets absolutely bodied by everyone in his current tier. I think he should be a tier lower and closer to Roy since they aren't all that different,
 

A10theHero

SSJ Fraud
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Messages
2,937
Location
The Hoenn region
NNID
A10theHero
I'd like to see this Aurasphere Usmash buff :p

Yes, Lucario got a buff to his mobility: It still doesn't really solve his problem.
I never said that he doesn't have troubles--his problems are still there and pretty apparent.
But Aura Sphere to Up Smash is still a thing--I just needed to clear that up. And like I said, the patch only help a little.
So please don't beat my Lucario up with your Ryu. He's weak to Fighting types. :c
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
This thread for the past couple pages has gone much better than one would expect. I don't mind it, and the discussion has been nice.

February gonna be so fun though. :dedede:
 

Smudges

and we're back.
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
804
NNID
Smudges0
As a Former Marth main, Marth gets absolutely bodied by everyone in his current tier. I think he should be a tier lower and closer to Roy since they aren't all that different,
Oh, there's something I missed. Marth is Higher than Roy.
L1N3R1D3R L1N3R1D3R
Roy is has greater mobility than Marth, and has more combos at low percents. Roy has good combos out of his (still meh) jab, and has better survivability due to his fast-falling nature. It's easier to sweetspot Roy's attacks, and therefore he kills earlier in general (This point is arguable though, definitely)
With Marth, your spacing needs to be REALLY on point to get the sweetspot. With Roy, standing anywhere within half a sword length will do.
 
Last edited:

Macchiato

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
6,629
Location
Springfield, Virginia
NNID
Macchiatooo
"WFT has no rep besides John Numbers"

Jesus Christ stop making so many uneducated statements people. Wii Twerk Trainer? Waveguider? Anti (even if he's mainly Mario)? TKbreezy?

Calling over Macchiato Macchiato considering he knows far more about Wii Fit than I do.
LOL TKbreezy doesn't count. He barely gets anywhere in locals. RIN is what were talking about. Ascwolf is #1 in Germany, and FunCrazyFish in Texas.
 

ShadowGuy1

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
1,311
S: :4sheik::4zss::rosalina::4diddy::4pikachu:
A: :4mario::4ryu::4metaknight::4fox::4sonic::4ness::4villager::4cloud:
B: :4falcon::4myfriends::4peach::4yoshi::4wario2::4darkpit::4pit::4tlink::4rob::4pacman::4lucario:
C: :4dk::4greninja::4megaman::4olimar::4luigi::4mewtwo::4lucas::4link::4feroy::4robinm:
D: :4drmario::4gaw::4falco::4marth::4kirby::4wiifit::4duckhunt:
E: :4samus::4bowserjr::4charizard::4littlemac::4palutena::4lucina:
F: :4bowser::4dedede::4ganondorf::4zelda::4jigglypuff:
This is actually a pretty good tier list, only a few things I disagree with.

-Why is Bowser soooo low after buffs yet Mewtwo is C?
-Why did you put Mewtwo soo high?
-Why is sonic below fox and diddy, who I also want to know why he is high up
 

Xandercosm

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 23, 2015
Messages
1,425
Location
the nearest neutron star!
NNID
vineto
Sorry, but you're missing Pikachu. I know you just started your list, but that doesn't excuse forgetting one of the best contenders for top 5
I actually would say he's closer to top 15. He has inconsistent throw combos, a bad dash grab, inconsistent combos in general, basically no kill confirms (which really hurts for him especially, considering he doesn't really have the frame data to make up for it), and just has a hard time killing in general. He became seriously overrated due to Zero's analysis video. Plus he really only has one rep. I rest my case.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
S: :4sheik::4zss::rosalina::4diddy::4pikachu:
A: :4mario::4ryu::4metaknight::4fox::4sonic::4ness::4villager::4cloud:
B: :4falcon::4myfriends::4peach::4yoshi::4wario2::4darkpit::4pit::4tlink::4rob::4pacman::4lucario:
C: :4dk::4greninja::4megaman::4olimar::4luigi::4mewtwo::4lucas::4link::4feroy::4robinm:
D: :4drmario::4gaw::4falco::4marth::4kirby::4wiifit::4duckhunt:
E: :4samus::4bowserjr::4charizard::4littlemac::4palutena::4lucina:
F: :4bowser::4dedede::4ganondorf::4zelda::4jigglypuff:
In what world is Bowser bottom 5?

Peach is also not better than either Wario or Yoshi. Wario's gotten a top 8 placement, and Yoshi gets more consistent rep than Peach in America (no, he doesn't have "no results" like many like to say, ****'s a myth). Lucario isn't better than DK. Despite is large frame DK can play the spacing game better, has better air mobility and can kill mad early off a grab, which honestly isn't hard due to his large grab range. Also, why do people keep putting Roy above Robin?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ShadowGuy1

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
1,311
In what world is Bowser bottom 5?

Peach is also not better than either Wario or Yoshi. Lucario isn't better than DK. Also, why do people keep putting Roy above Robin?
Because he is our boy that is why. For real though, I think he is better because of his speed, combos, and kill power.
 

Smudges

and we're back.
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
804
NNID
Smudges0
S: :4sheik::4zss::rosalina::4diddy::4pikachu:
A: :4mario::4ryu::4metaknight::4fox::4sonic::4ness::4villager::4cloud:
B: :4falcon::4myfriends::4peach::4yoshi::4wario2::4darkpit::4pit::4tlink::4rob::4pacman::4lucario:
C: :4dk::4greninja::4megaman::4olimar::4luigi::4mewtwo::4lucas::4link::4feroy::4robinm:
D: :4drmario::4gaw::4falco::4marth::4kirby::4wiifit::4duckhunt:
E: :4samus::4bowserjr::4charizard::4littlemac::4palutena::4lucina:
F: :4bowser::4dedede::4ganondorf::4zelda::4jigglypuff:
Bowser in F tier? As bottom five? Hah. Nice trick.
In light of his recent buffs, I'd put Bowser in mid D tier. His new throw gives him SO much more potential, but really doesn't solve his key issues (Mobility and approaching)

Mewtwo is also a bit high, put him in D as well. He's still too large and too light, and his frame data is still kind of poor, even though it received a buff.

Peach is also not better than either Wario or Yoshi. Lucario isn't better than DK. Also, why do people keep putting Roy above Robin?
I think Duck Hunt is too high.
These.

I'd also say that Diddy and Pikachu are not S tier.
 

L1N3R1D3R

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
1,035
Location
On my Switch
Switch FC
SW-3822-0133-6917
"WFT has no rep besides John Numbers"

Jesus Christ stop making so many uneducated statements people. Wii Twerk Trainer? Waveguider? Anti (even if he's mainly Mario)? TKbreezy?

Calling over Macchiato Macchiato considering he knows far more about Wii Fit than I do.
Sorry for my ignorance of those players (even though I should have known TKBreezy), though there's just something about her design that just doesn't work in many surprising situations. Her hitboxes for most moves are in awkward places, not allowing for things that other characters can do just fine. I'll probably move her up to 5, though.

Oh, there's something I missed. Marth is Higher than Roy.
L1N3R1D3R L1N3R1D3R
Roy is has greater mobility than Marth, and has more combos at low percents. Roy has good combos out of his (still meh) jab, and has better survivability due to his fast-falling nature. It's easier to sweetspot Roy's attacks, and therefore he kills earlier in general (This point is arguable though, definitely)
With Marth, your spacing needs to be REALLY on point to get the sweetspot. With Roy, standing anywhere within half a sword length will do.
Marth's sweetspotted moves are actually slightly stronger than Roy's (at least the ones that matter for killing), and the fact that he has the tipper and not the hilt means his moves are safer on shield. While he may not have true combos, his grabs still put the opponent in good places for combos/edgeguarding (specifically down and forward throws), and his recovery is far better. I'd say that's enough to make him higher, even though Roy's easier to play.
 
Last edited:

valakmtnsmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
708
NNID
yathshiv
Sorry, but you're missing Pikachu. I know you just started your list, but that doesn't excuse forgetting one of the best contenders for top 5
WHOOPS
Wow im sleepy. I better do this with a fresh mind!

Revised S and A tiers:

S: :4sheik::4zss::rosalina:
A: :4pikachu::4sonic::4fox::4ryu::4diddy::4mario::4metaknight:
 

Smudges

and we're back.
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
804
NNID
Smudges0
Marth's sweetspotted moves are actually slightly stronger than Roy's (at least the ones that matter for killing), and the fact that he has the tipper and not the hilt means his moves are safer on shield. While he may not have true combos, his grabs still put the opponent in good places for combos/edgeguarding (specifically down and forward throws), and his recovery is far better.
Everything you said is correct. I'd still argue that Roy is better. Mobility is really important in this game, and Roy is faster than Marth in every respect. Roy can also rack up damage much better than Marth at low percents, where things like Dthrow Up special work. While Marth's tippers are more powerful, Roy's are easier to land: the sweetspot seems to be more lenient. Roy tends to rack up damage faster and kill earlier than Marth. Otherwise, they're very much the same.
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
25,969
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
Bowser has got buffs yes, but unlike Mewtwo, he didn't get much results recently because of them. Mewtwo has great results as of late, couple of new players are to give credit for that. But Bowser hasn't enjoyed much succes, so he might probably rise later. Duck Hunt might indeed be too high given his lack of kill power, but he does have some positive matchups all around. Could definitely lower him yes.

Diddy is S tier I think because ZeRo plays him, and he plays him perfectly. I mean, absolutely BODYING Mr.R's Sheik is no easy feat, and he done it twice. His Diddy is proof that Diddy is absolutely worthy of being a S tier character, bcause he's simply very effective and has a great Sheik matchup. Probably the best in the game, same with Sonic. And Sonic doesn't frankly have too many results either, but he could definitely grow. I just think Diddy is better because of ZeRo. No Sonic would be able to beat ZeRo's Diddy, am sure of it. Neither could ESAM's Pikachu, any Ryu, MetaKnight or Fox. So Diddy ranks higher than all of them in my opinion. Yes a bias is there, but I see insane potential still in Diddy.

DK also indeed could be better than Pac Man and Lucario. He could possibly even beat R.O.B. now I think about it.
 

Andyomon00

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
80
NNID
andtomon00
3DS FC
0301-9874-0642
Marth's sweetspotted moves are actually slightly stronger than Roy's (at least the ones that matter for killing), and the fact that he has the tipper and not the hilt means his moves are safer on shield. While he may not have true combos, his grabs still put the opponent in good places for combos/edgeguarding (specifically down and forward throws), and his recovery is far better.
Actually, most of Roy's sweetspotted tilts and smashses are stronger than Marth's tippered ones. Not only that Roy has consistant actual follow ups from both forward and down throw, whereas Marth only has one . While it may be true that Roy's move aren't the safest on shield, because he is a rushdown fighter and has good mobility, he can easily close the distance and grab his opponent. The advantage is Roy's ability to deal a pressure and do mixups with high mobility and power.
 
Last edited:

Smudges

and we're back.
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
804
NNID
Smudges0
I actually would say he's closer to top 15. He has inconsistent throw combos, a bad dash grab, inconsistent combos in general, basically no kill confirms (which really hurts for him especially, considering he doesn't really have the frame data to make up for it), and just has a hard time killing in general. He became seriously overrated due to Zero's analysis video. Plus he really only has one rep. I rest my case.
Ok. Pikachu has bad frame data?
Frame 3 nair, frame 4 Uair, and frame 4 bair are bad frame data? Has a frame 1 combo breaker in Thunder, and that's bad? 13th fastest character, bad frame data?

Inconsistent combos? Quick attack combos into Utilts, Utilts to Uair to Bair/Fair are nearly guaranteed as long as you don't mess it up. Landing Uair combos into all of his aerials, and arguably the best edgeguard in the game, coupled with the best recovery?

Throw combos aren't guaranteed, but Pikachu's throw are fast, and can catch people off guard if they don't DI fast enough.

Not having kill confirms is something that a few characters suffer from ie. Mario, Sonic

Can somebody else add something? Feel like I'm missing some stuff.
 

valakmtnsmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
708
NNID
yathshiv
Well I just updated my unfinished tier list, but I just put Pikas place on my opinion, I am kind of iffy about him
 

A10theHero

SSJ Fraud
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Messages
2,937
Location
The Hoenn region
NNID
A10theHero
I actually would say he's closer to top 15.
Finally! Now this is my area of expertise!

He has inconsistent throw combos, a bad dash grab, inconsistent combos in general, basically no kill confirms (which really hurts for him especially, considering he doesn't really have the frame data to make up for it), and just has a hard time killing in general.
At low percents, he doesn't have many combos from throws, he has strings. All that means is that he doesn't have a single answer to all possible outcomes. Instead, he has different answers to different outcomes. Here's my favorite: In general, after a Down Throw or Up Throw, the first Up Air is guaranteed. After that: DI away? I can use Fair, fastfall it, and select one of several different options (mainly jab/ftilt if near edge of stage, otherwise regrab). Don't DI or DI in? I can use Nair and then follow it up with fastfall Fair and go from there as well.
After that, you can still connect down throw with up air past mid percents for some characters. And if you're talking about forward throw and back throw, I will say that though they are outshined by up throw and down throw, but forward does have a guaranteed combo at low percents and both throws can set up edgeguarding situations.
Pikachu has other good combo tools such as Quick Attack and Up Tilt, but you were talking about throw combos, so I'll move on.
As for a bad dash grab, I do not understand what you mean by this. It comes out frame 8, which is pretty good for a dash grab and has decent range. What's bad about it?
He does have good frame data; I think you're specifically referring to his light weight in this case. He actually has a potential kill confirm: I haven't tested this out because I have a broken arm, but according to some people on the Pika boards, after an up throw, if you follow the DI, and then buffer Thunder and back, it can be a true combo still. Honorable mentions: He has moves with good killing power (up smash, forward smash) that can capitalize on reads, and fastfall Fair to Up Smash is guaranteed or really hard to react to on certain characters as well. Finally, we should mention Pikachu's edgeguarding; he is definitely one of the best edgeguarders in the game and it can net him some early kills.

He became seriously overrated due to Zero's analysis video. Plus he really only has one rep. I rest my case.
I view Pikachu as simultaneously overrated and underrated, if that makes any sense. Yes, I think people jumped the gun on making him on the same level as Sheik and ZSS (I actually believed too when I was a wee scrub), but I also feel that the idea that he now isn't a top contender for Top 5 is criminally underrating him.
Pikachu has other reps too like NAKAT, but people only ever mention ESAM. The problem with looking to a single person to rate a character's performance is that when he's faltering, the character is faltering as well. ESAM's limitations become Pikachu's limitations and that makes me sad. Like at Genesis, ESAM wasn't feeling well, and that reflected poorly on the character.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Pikachu has piss poor representation though
I can't stand this argument. I guess by that logic, I guess Yoshi shouldn't have risen six places on Melee's tier list since aMSa is the only real notable Yoshi main in that game right now. Pikachu also has Captain L and Z. They don't have the phenomenal results ESAM does, but they exist.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

C3CC

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
1,048
Location
United States
*Sheild Stabs you*
Shield Breaker...
Like, I think Rosa is very good, but not the best. While Luma is on the field, alive and kicking, yes, Rosa is extremely good. With Luma dead, though, Rosa is still good, but, like, not great.
Ouch :( Can you guys please elaborate on why? I see it's an almost universal opinion that Rosalina is the third best, seeing everyone's tier lists. I'm just curious as to why people don't agree with me or if there are any elements I fail to see that make Sheik and Zero Suit Samus apparently better than her. Absolutely no one has mentioned Rosalina in the last, say, two or three pages.

Also, I'm happy that people are finally acknowledging that Mewtwo is not that bad, and he's climbing his way to mid-tier. Thank based Sakurai for the last buff!
 

A10theHero

SSJ Fraud
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Messages
2,937
Location
The Hoenn region
NNID
A10theHero
And never forget NAKAT. He's probably the second best Pikachu player and he did well at Genesis too. Poor guy cracked in his match against Slayerz though. He probably could've placed higher.
 
Last edited:

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
25,969
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
I can't stand this argument. I guess by that logic, I guess Yoshi shouldn't have risen six places on Melee's tier list since aMSa is the only real notable Yoshi main in that game right now. Pikachu also has Captain L and Z. They don't have the phenomenal results ESAM does, but they exist.
In that case Diddy indeed has all the rights to be higher than Pikachu, because even if ZeRo uses Sheik more, his Diddy would beat pretty much anyone else most likely.
 
Top Bottom